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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-06-21

---Logopened Sun Jun 21 00:00:38 2015
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01:15<Gantradies>i assume so
01:15<Gantradies>my origional server was running on a Linuix Vm console session, but since it
01:15-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
01:16<Gantradies>but ren opened the prots for my windows vm runnign my space negineers server ( sicne i know iwndows a lot better sao i can do updates ect easier, plus i hate usiong nano to edit openttd.cfg >.<)
01:18<andythenorth>o/
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02:03<andythenorth>lo Alberth
02:04<@Alberth>moin andy
02:04<@Alberth>how is the train truck?
02:14<andythenorth>well
02:14<andythenorth>I did try converting Road Hog to trains
02:14<andythenorth>but some of the properties don’t match up, so I reverted :P
02:20<@Alberth>no driving trains through small town streets thus :)
02:21<andythenorth>hmm
02:21<andythenorth>trains as RVs
02:21<@Alberth>oh dear, what have I done???? :)
02:23<andythenorth>nah that’s just HEQS
02:34<Supercheese>roads as railtype...
02:34<Supercheese>hmm
02:36<blathijs>Interesting seems a compiled 1.5.1 is a bit smaller than 1.5.0? :-)
02:39<Pikka>beep beep
02:41<@Alberth>used same compiler?? :)
02:42<@Alberth>I played with nightfx for fun last night, and found two things. 1) the effect is gone as soon as you use a newgrf, 2) I like black diesel smoke http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/black_smoke1.png
02:43<mari_kiri>Alberth: Looks suspiciously like a bug that could be promoted to an optional feature
02:44<@Alberth>mari_kiri: hehe :)
02:45<andythenorth>bonjour Pikka bob
02:45<andythenorth>did you do roadtypes spec yet?
02:45<andythenorth>Alberth: why is that signal emitting diesel smoke anyway? :P
02:46<@Alberth>smokin' busy moving steel
02:55<andythenorth>Alberth: iirc, with the effects callback you can change the smoke in newgrf :P
02:57<@Alberth>it might not even need effects cb, just change the default smoke?
02:58<andythenorth>base set
02:58<andythenorth>action A
02:58<andythenorth>something
03:05<Pikka>every time I came back to "single roadtype is easier". although having a seperate track-layer sprite might be useful. :)
03:07<andythenorth>effectively there are already two types
03:07<andythenorth>road / tram
03:07<andythenorth>and all the stuff in place to handle that
03:07<andythenorth>allow label-driven types for each of those, job done
03:08<andythenorth>if we did 8 road, 8 tram, we’d only need 3 bits for each, not 4
03:08<Pikka>I mean single roadtype per tile... which would mean making what we have now into 3 roadtypes...
03:08<andythenorth>combinatorial hell :D
03:08<Pikka>why?
03:08<andythenorth>cobble road with tram tracks and no catenary
03:08<andythenorth>cobble road with tram tracks and catenary
03:08<andythenorth>etc
03:09<Pikka>you don't need to combine every road surface with every tram variant unless you really want to. :) and if tram tracks were seperate sprites (but not seperately buildable layer) it wouldn't need any extra sprites.
03:11<andythenorth>1 type per tile saves a lot of bits
03:11<andythenorth>well 9 or so
03:12<andythenorth>owner, type
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03:13<andythenorth>how would construction work though?
03:13<Pikka>less fiddly to build if trammy-tiles autoconnect and we get rid of the half-tile turnarounds, make it so all trams have to be loops.
03:13<Pikka>like current road I guess
03:13<andythenorth>say I want to build a tram route, 50% over road and 50% over bare land
03:13<andythenorth>I have to switch roadtype after 50%?
03:14<andythenorth>first I choose ‘road with tram’
03:14<andythenorth>then I switch to ‘tram'
03:14<Pikka>yep
03:14<andythenorth>and if I overbuild existing ‘road’ with ‘tram’ I get just tram
03:15<Pikka>you'd probably have to use the convert tool, similar to trying to overbuild different types of rail
03:15<Pikka>if you convert road to tram you get just tram, if you convert road to tram with road you get...
03:16<andythenorth>so for trolleybus + tram, I need ‘road with trolleybus and tram'
03:16<Pikka>yes. or electric tram if you let trolleybuses run under tram wires, which would seem sensible to me
03:17<andythenorth>and for ‘sealed gravel road with 750V DC trolleybus and 3’6” 1500v tram with grooved rail"
03:17<Pikka>yes
03:17<Pikka>exactly
03:17<andythenorth>yes
03:17<andythenorth>well either route works for me
03:17<andythenorth>I think tram and RV are separate, so I slightly favour roadtypes + tramtypes
03:18<andythenorth>the other option has simplicity
03:18<Pikka>I think if tram had, for example, signals or some kind of priority over RVs it could be seen as a seperate thing. but at the moment it's just a special-cased roadtype imo.
03:20<andythenorth>what I did wrote yesterday https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p8bihm3u0/utk84y/raw
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03:24<andythenorth>‘drivethrought'
03:42<andythenorth>Alberth: wondering about a variant of Busy Bee where it handles industry opening (and maybe closing)
03:43<@Alberth>closing isn't going to fly due to newgrf specs
03:43<andythenorth>well
03:43<andythenorth>we can ignore that for now
03:44<@Alberth>opening..... setting it to 'none' industries, and opening each one ?
03:44<andythenorth>the idea would be to start with a low-industry map (via map gen settings)
03:44<andythenorth>and then have Busy Bee provide both industries and goals
03:44<@Alberth>should be feasible
03:44<andythenorth>it needs enough variation that the gameplay isn’t 100% linear
03:44<andythenorth>i.e. player still has some choices
03:45*andythenorth increasingly also thinks that daylength might be a thing :P
03:45<@Alberth>you have several goals now too
03:45<@Alberth>in a game script? :p
03:49<andythenorth>daylength in newgrf :P
03:49<andythenorth>I dunno if I want to find all the places that ‘date’ and ‘days since’ are used :P
03:57<Pikka>daylength is not a thing
03:58<Pikka>people who think they want daylength actually want something else, eg fewer vehicle models, or a smaller map
03:58<andythenorth>I want longer between vehicle introductions
03:58<Pikka>then you need fewer vehicle models, clearly :)
03:58<andythenorth>I have ‘solved’ it by playing after 2000 with my own newgrfs
03:58<andythenorth>I cba to provide any new vehicles after 2000
03:59<andythenorth>and all trains and trucks are leet by then anyway :P
03:59<Pikka>me neither. or at least not "futuristic" vehicles
03:59<Pikka>if we push back to 1900, that's still 100 years, right?
04:00<andythenorth>? o_O
04:00<Pikka>original game provides vehicles 1950-2050
04:01<Pikka>we provide 1900-2000, still the same amount of gameplay
04:01<andythenorth>I provide 1860-2010
04:01<andythenorth>150 years
04:01<andythenorth>“50% extra free"
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04:14<@Alberth>but still too many vehicles, apparently
04:14<andythenorth>dunno
04:14<andythenorth>considering adding a few more right now
04:15<@Alberth>maybe you shouldn't try using all of them in the same game :)
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04:18<Supercheese> too many vehicles --> "Hide vehicle"
04:29<@Alberth>you'd have to choose which ones you hide, and chosing is difficult :)
04:32<Taede>create an age-based filter?
04:32<Taede>hide all vehicles over 40years old
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04:36<andythenorth>I think that’s a nice idea
04:36<andythenorth>we could call it ‘vehicle expiry’ ? o_O
04:47<@Alberth>just randomly decide whether to introduce a vehicle :)
04:49<andythenorth>nice idea
04:56<andythenorth>eh it’s pretty silly that GS can’t close industry
04:56<andythenorth>I know [because newgrf]
04:56<andythenorth>but still
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05:00<@Alberth>quak
05:01<frosch123>moin
05:15<andythenorth>all trucks need to go same speed, per generation
05:15<andythenorth>slow is boring
05:15<andythenorth>‘slow’ is also relative
05:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27311 /trunk/src (road_cmd.cpp station_cmd.cpp) (2015-06-21 11:19:27 +0200 )
05:19<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Mark infrastructure window dirty in more cases. (marcole)
05:19<peter1138>Why do they need to go the same speed?
05:21<@Alberth>avoid overtaking :p
05:22<supermop>yo
05:26<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Rail#/media/File:Tri-Rail_train_Miami_Airport_train_station_2015-04.jpg
05:26<supermop>trying to understand why there is a snowplow on that thing
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05:28<frosch123>where is the third rail?
05:29<andythenorth>there is no overtaking :{
05:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27312 trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp (2015-06-21 11:31:50 +0200 )
05:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish [FS#6317]: Preserve town ownership of bridges when removing road from a road+tram bridge. (marcole)
05:33<andythenorth>someone has been busy o_O
05:33<supermop>pretty sure if they had snow in miami, let alone enough to need a snowplow, trains would not be running
05:34<supermop>frosch123: but town doesn't build tram, so i would be removing the town's road?
05:34<andythenorth>how do I get the faster trucks to pass the smaller trucks?
05:34<andythenorth>even if I build dual carriageway sections they don’t use them
05:34<andythenorth>pathfinder doesn’t seem to look ahead
05:35<andythenorth>although curve penalty and so on should be equal for both routes
05:35<andythenorth>road pathfinder ignores other vehicles I assume?
05:35<supermop>yeah
05:35<@Alberth>I don't think so, they distribute themselves nicely at drive-through stations
05:36<supermop>Alberth: when i have a drive through tram stop on a little loop at end of aa line,
05:37<supermop>if 2nd tram is right behind the first, it will not go around the loop opposite way
05:37<supermop>ive noticed with trucks too
05:37<andythenorth>I think the game wants me to build trains?
05:37<supermop>so if the 2nd is running late and needs to use the loop to pass the first, it cannot
05:38<@Alberth>I don't know the details, but if they fully ignore other vehicles, they'd never go around
05:38<peter1138>Probably need to tweak penalties.
05:40<frosch123>roadstops keep track on the "total length" of vehicles loading and heading to it per loading bay
05:40<frosch123>the pathfinder adds that to penalties
05:40<frosch123>normal road tiles are not checked for rv, that's far too expensive
05:40<peter1138>Makes the cache (is it still cached) uselessish...
05:41<supermop>2nd vehicle only goes around if it is far behind the first
05:42<supermop>but then in that case it has less need of the ability to pass
05:44<andythenorth>it’s probably best ‘solved’ by newgrf design
05:44<andythenorth>unify all the speeds, the issue disappears
05:45<supermop>andythenorth: my problem arises most with a fleet of identical vehicles, but with one running late in the timetable
05:46<supermop>basically 'bus bunching'
05:46<andythenorth>but in that case the late one can’t overtake anyway?
05:47<andythenorth>because they all have same top speed?
05:47<supermop>could pass in loop if possible
05:47<supermop>imagine tram #3 is stuck behind tram #4
05:48<supermop>tram 4 is on time so will take full time at each stop, while #3 stayed late
05:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27313 trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp (2015-06-21 11:52:30 +0200 )
05:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6317]: Adding tram to town-owned bridges assigned an incorrect owner to the tram and did not count infrastructure counts properly. (marcole)
05:53<supermop>rigid busses do not have the problem - so long as there is at least one terminus bus stop on the route, theyy can lay up and let a bus pass
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06:10<andythenorth>ha
06:10<andythenorth>even the rigid trucks can’t pass :P
06:10<andythenorth>too much oncoming traffic
06:13<frosch123>well, add road usage to the pathfinder :p
06:13<frosch123>add 6 busy bits for the 6 trackdirs per tile
06:14<frosch123>set them in the vehicle tick for the trackbit the vehicle is on
06:14<frosch123>and clear them in the road tileloop
06:14<frosch123>that should give you some statistical usage result
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06:22<andythenorth>uses up bits that could be used for roadtypes? o_O
06:22<andythenorth>:P
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06:27<peter1138>Just add more bits.
06:28<peter1138>Everyone has 16GB RAM these days...
06:31<andythenorth>'everyone'
06:40<Taede>i suppose i could photoshop a 1 in front of the 6
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06:42<@Alberth>just don't play 4096x4096 :)
06:45<frosch123>it has never been about the ram, we have 2gb of sprtiecache. it has always been about savegame size and network join times
06:47<frosch123>and about duchebags complaining that they cannot upload their 50 mb savegame of an empty map to fs or forums
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06:49<frosch123>coulomb couldn't handle the load :p
06:51<@Alberth>:)
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06:59<andythenorth>I dunno
06:59<andythenorth>every time I complete a Busy Bee goal it gives me another one
06:59<andythenorth>so I can never finish this game :(
07:01<@Alberth>computers are silly beings :p
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07:12<andythenorth>busy roads are mesmerising in the game
07:12*andythenorth sitting watching like a ninny
07:15<@Alberth>make a looping video, done
07:18<supermop>i usually lose several years of game time to watching busy stations
07:20<@Alberth>I save, watch, reload, and continue editing :)
07:20*andythenorth must to the seaside
07:20<andythenorth>bbl
07:20<@Alberth>bye
07:20<andythenorth>going to see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_ARSE8jEHQ
07:20<andythenorth>bye
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09:51<Terkhen>hello
09:52<@Alberth>o/
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10:23<frosch123>LordAro wanting to commit stuff... what is this madness :p
10:23<LordAro>ikr
10:24<LordAro>not my fault someone found a bug in aroai
10:24<LordAro>well, it's more that i found some stuff that i never pushed
10:25<LordAro>frosch123: ty :)
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10:33<LordAro>wait, i made ~30 commits that i never released?
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10:38<frosch123>did you have issues with sleep walking somewhen? :p
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10:41<LordAro>:p
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11:23*LordAro finds a `if (fullstop = false)` in his code
11:23*LordAro burns it with fire
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12:03<@Alberth>I hope you found it quicker than I did, I needed at least 15 minutes for that :)
12:04<LordAro>i wasn't even looking for it :p
12:05<LordAro>it was just right there in front of me :)
12:05<@Alberth>:o 0 seconds thus :)
12:07<LordAro>hmm, how do i do global enums in squirrel...
12:09<@Alberth>don't know if you can
12:09<@Alberth>a few constants in a class?
12:09<LordAro>yeah, i suspect that's what i'll end up doing
12:09<LordAro>silly squirrel
12:11<frosch123>java lived for years without enums
12:11<frosch123>c++ needed 40 years to make them well-defined
12:12<frosch123>s/40/30/
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27314 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2015-06-21 19:45:13 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 4 changes by eirik174
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13:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27315 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2015-06-21 19:52:18 +0200 )
13:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Norwegian bokmal
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14:29<LordAro>what's the best way to get passenger cargo id nowadays? i've fixed the bug, but it thinks it's building routes for tourists instead
14:32<frosch123>the cargo label is always the best method
14:33<frosch123>http://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAICargo.html#7e776eb92503c9ceaf55b3efd90780ad https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes
14:33<frosch123>who wrote that note in the docs? :p
14:34<LordAro>"Note: Never use this to check if it is a certain cargo. NewGRF can redefine all of the names." :p
14:37<LordAro>so is it safe or not? :L
14:37<frosch123>what do you want to do?
14:38<LordAro>i've been using `(AICargo.HasCargoClass(i, AICargo.CC_PASSENGERS) && AICargo.GetTownEffect(i) == AICargo.TE_PASSENGERS)` until now
14:38<frosch123>why do you care about pax vs. tourists?
14:38<LordAro>dunno, should i?
14:38<LordAro>i don't know what the differences are
14:38<frosch123>towneffects is certainly the most undefined thing there is :p
14:38<frosch123>anyway, why do you mind transporting tourists?
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14:42<LordAro>i don't know :p
14:42<LordAro>it seems that they're produced less than pax
14:43<LordAro>but the vehicle that gets selected (code stolen from nocab long ago) can transport pax fine anyway
14:43<LordAro>so, idk
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14:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27316 trunk/src/script/api/script_cargo.hpp (2015-06-21 20:53:23 +0200 )
14:53<@DorpsGek>-Doc: Improve documentation on ScriptCargo::GetCargoLabel
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14:59<frosch123>why would someone use a dot in a class name in squirrel?
15:00<frosch123>does it really allow that? or does it have some special meaning?
15:04<LordAro>?
15:10<frosch123>see the squirrel2doxygen topic :)
15:11<LordAro>i see
15:12*LordAro shrug
15:12<LordAro>hmm, how long does hg.openttdcoop.org take to update? it's lagging behind http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-aroai/repository
15:20<LordAro>planetmaker: can has compile farm?
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15:41<Terkhen>good night
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16:03<andythenorth>o/
16:06<frosch123>hoi
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16:11*andythenorth has been watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9c8i0agSso
16:11<andythenorth>only 2015 edition
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16:16<Supercheese>Vulcan to OTTD?
16:16<Supercheese>Could add it for kicks
16:16<Supercheese>isometric sprites already exist for Civ3
16:17<frosch123>vulcan was a east german ship manufactory that bankrupted in the 90s
16:17<frosch123>ooops, it's west german
16:17<Supercheese>sexy beast of an airplane
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16:18<Supercheese>blows the canberra out of the water
16:18<frosch123>i always thought it bankrupted together with all the other east german things
16:21<andythenorth>Supercheese: it’s astounding, that is not hype
16:21<andythenorth>last flying season this year
16:21<Supercheese>sad panda
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17:22<MeSaber>can i have someones attention about payment rates?
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17:23<MeSaber>trying to figure out why my numbers dont correspond to what im testing
17:23<MeSaber>and what "immediate" for passengers really mean
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17:41<MeSaber>figured it out.. thx for help :D
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19:40<Saladan2>!password
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19:40<Saladan2>woops, my bad
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19:51<Speedy>whore
19:58<Saladan0>:<
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21:29<supermop>yo
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 22 00:00:39 2015