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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-07-05

---Logopened Sun Jul 05 00:00:56 2015
00:39-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
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01:40<andythenorth>it’s a pikka
01:41<Pikka>only occasionally
01:41<Pikka>what are the haps?
01:41*andythenorth has to deliver 1500 tonnes of Iron Ore to Evilville Steel Mill
01:41<Pikka>better get on with it then
01:41<andythenorth>it is 2049
01:41<andythenorth>I have been playing this game since 1965 or so
01:41<andythenorth>and no new vehicles since 2010
01:42<andythenorth>including your AV9 things
01:42<Pikka>It's hard to make futuristic vehicles that aren't boring
01:42<andythenorth>I only intended to play until 2010
01:42<andythenorth>I blame Busy Bee
01:43<Pikka>what do you think of av9?
01:44<andythenorth>I find it has exactly what I need, where and when I need it
01:44<andythenorth>I don’t use most of the planes
01:44<andythenorth>due to play style
01:44<andythenorth>I don’t care about that
01:45<Pikka>as long as it has what you need
01:45<Pikka>that's the idea, it's there to suppliment and fill in corners
01:47<andythenorth>Ore can deliver itself
01:47*andythenorth should make trams
01:56<andythenorth>Pikka: how many years between road vehicle generations?
01:56<Pikka>25-odd I think
01:59<andythenorth>20 seems to work in Road Hog for gameplay
01:59<andythenorth>but 25 has advantages for andythenorth
01:59<Pikka>one fewer over 100 years?
02:00<andythenorth>11 fewer trucks to draw + code
02:00<@Alberth>mornink all
02:00<andythenorth>lo Alberth
02:11*andythenorth needs a safe word for Busy Bee
02:11<andythenorth>I can’t abandon my game with goals part-met :P
02:14<@Alberth>some end year ?
02:15<@Alberth>or a sign "enough!" :)
02:16<andythenorth>I’ll wait until I’ve changed some newgrf so much it breaks savegames
02:16<andythenorth>or a new Busy Bee :P
02:16<@Alberth>just "accidently" loose the game file
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02:30<andythenorth>maybe 30 years is actually better
02:30<andythenorth>then the stats increases are significant
02:38<supermop>hmm i am 30 and i can say my stats have not really increased significantly
02:39<andythenorth>they will from now on
02:39<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: but maybe the stats of the next generation around you?
02:39<supermop>oh yeah those guys are way better than me at everything Eddi|zuHause
02:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: time between different generation needs to be lower than the lifetime of the vehicles
02:42<andythenorth>vehicle, or model?
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02:44<andythenorth>wow, OpenTTD has scroll support :o
02:59<Pikka>I don't know if my stat increases are significant
02:59<Pikka>but then I'm treating my road vehicles like the planes - they're for filling in the corners around trains rather than being universally useful transport. ;)
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03:34<mari_kiri>Woohoo, finally built a working SRNW in a local game
03:34<mari_kiri>Quite basic but it delivers water to water towers
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04:09<Wolf01>hi hi
04:10<Wolf01>I just restored the original colour of some LEGO Technic sets :D
04:15<andythenorth>washed them?
04:15<Wolf01>no, I had to use the air compressor because they were plenty of stickers
04:18<Wolf01>and I "can't" disassemble them because most of the old axles relatd pieces have cracks on them and I feel they won't be capable of staying together again
04:19<Wolf01>I think the next bricklink order will be full of those pieces
04:22<@Alberth>hi hi
04:29<mari_kiri>Also finally made a not gate, might have to have a go at a few other things
04:30<Wolf01>make a nand and open the road for *everything*
04:32<mari_kiri>I suspect I'd know how to make nand and nor
04:36<supermop>i got confused and thought someone was saying they made a technic nand gate
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04:37<Wolf01>I think mechanical logic gates are possible, but I'm not a mechanic :D
04:37<andythenorth>there are videos of technic logic gates
04:38<supermop>im sure they are possible,
04:38<andythenorth>most combinations can be done mechanically
04:38<supermop>but id be astounded none he less
04:41<mari_kiri>Yeah I've managed to suss out NAND + NOR
04:42<Wolf01>interesting, but the problem is that you can't attach a motor to them, maybe you can attach a keyboard
04:42<andythenorth>sometimes it would be nice if RVs could be refitted within a range
04:42<andythenorth>(for capacity)
04:43<Wolf01>I was able to build an and gate with a differential, but I have no clue on how to build a mechanical not gate... the torque won't generate from thin air
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04:49*andythenorth must to trams now
04:49<andythenorth>have any of you lot played Road Hog? o_O
04:50<supermop>trams are a bit frustrating until the two hills or whatever shows up
04:51<andythenorth>what do you miss?
04:51<supermop>i want 300 person trams that load instantly in 1600
04:52<andythenorth>just do venice :P
04:52<supermop>but basically i think the performance gap between the balloon and modern tram is too great
04:53<supermop>they are essentially different types of vehicle so not a fuid upgrade
04:53<supermop>but i assume that is the point as the UK basically did not have mid-century trams
04:53<andythenorth>it’s only a capacity jump of 270% :P
04:53<andythenorth>where’s the problem?
04:53<andythenorth>yeah, the UK lacked trams, but I’m bored of the history lesson now
04:53<andythenorth>history lesson = bad game
04:54<supermop>well maybe egrvts is not so mad an approach
04:54<supermop>in that double deck and single deck trams have different lineages
04:55<andythenorth>this could be a point
04:55<andythenorth>that’s how buses / coaches are handled
04:55<supermop>also if one is two lazy to properly timetable, you cant cheat it by making a 'dripper' of a stop with 10 day or whatever wait, and using long trams
04:56<supermop>that will roughly keep trams evenly spaces if you spam enough of them
04:56<supermop>i associate double deck trams with uk and hk, and articulated trams with aus and europe
04:57<supermop>not sure if RH will have different rosters, but you could have a better double deck tram between the balloon and two hills
04:57<supermop>or an earlier worse articulated tram that loads faster than balloon
04:58<supermop>sometimes i end up overcapacity with the balloon but can work around it
04:58<andythenorth>can’t find any mid-century UK prototypes for articulated
04:59<andythenorth>but I could put two single trams together
04:59<supermop>well no need to limit yourself to reality
04:59<supermop>then again caould just keep it as is and tell users thats what they get for playing a british themed game
05:02<andythenorth>what’s the gameplay distinction?
05:03<supermop>between double deck vs articulated?
05:03<andythenorth>just capacity?
05:04<supermop>can fit more double deck in a length of road for a given capacity, articulated can load fasted (if you code as such)
05:04<supermop>is how i would intuit it
05:05<supermop>presumably for less capacity one would have a single deck single car tram, but i don't think you'd ever need that with most house sets
05:06<supermop>unless it's a hardcore tram focused set i don't think most people will care
05:06<supermop>people just want to move around people quickly two and from rail stations
05:09<Supercheese>ugh, nml cache issue
05:09<Supercheese>I knew my code wasn't wrong
05:10*Supercheese mutters
05:13<andythenorth>‘make clean’ :P
05:13<andythenorth>is your friend
05:15<andythenorth>twin car, 1950s
05:15*Supercheese does not use any sort of "make"
05:15<Supercheese>makefiles confuse me greatly
05:15<mari_kiri>$ vim Makefile
05:15<mari_kiri>If you see one that is
05:15*Supercheese has no idea what that is
05:16<mari_kiri>Makefiles are pretty straightforward, just open a few in vim
05:16<supermop>that pantograph tower seems to imply this creature had to share the road with double-deckers as well
05:16*Supercheese does not use any sort of "vim"
05:17<Supercheese>although in Bioshock I did use Vigors ;)
05:17<supermop>andythenorth: maybe thinking too much on trams is a bit fruitless with the way tram tracks work
05:18<andythenorth>I need to think just enough to put them in the grf ;)
05:18<supermop>various types of historical configurations are going to end up pretty homogenized
05:18<andythenorth>and not more
05:18<andythenorth>there are very few gameplay points for trams
05:19<supermop>tram tracks and junctions are highly simplified
05:19<andythenorth>fast / slow, big / small
05:19<supermop>anything past loading speed and capacity is insignificant
05:20<supermop>tram track is too clunky for interurbans except in most cases so top speed doesn't matter
05:21<supermop>i find you can timetable 2 days for a tram to turn around at end of line for almost every tram from 1900 to 2100 in any game or set ive ever used
05:22<supermop>egrvts could also have used something before the first two car tram though
05:24<andythenorth>North American, Euro rosters will probably have interurbans
05:24<andythenorth>UK, not
05:30<supermop>not sure if fast trams are that useful in game though
05:30<andythenorth>fast enough
05:31<andythenorth>I dunno, feel like just one progression of trams is enough
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05:32<supermop>nah i mean trams are fast enough in most of my games
05:32<andythenorth>eh solved: more buses earlier
05:32<andythenorth>and trams are always just big
05:32<andythenorth>then the progression is simples
05:33<supermop>i never find myself needing a small fast intercity tram: i would always use a train for that
05:34<V453000>moar pondering
05:35<Supercheese>baking bread on the boiler, ha
05:37<supermop>andythenorth: please make a steam coach in RH called "The infernal Difiance"
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05:44<Supercheese>Difference engine, meet defiance engine
05:47<Supercheese>bloody cache at it again
05:47<Supercheese>should disable it
05:48<andythenorth>way slower
05:48<Supercheese>but this is the second time tonight it's messed up my perfectly fine code
05:49<Supercheese>or well, messed up the grf generated anyway
05:49<Supercheese>and I do not mind the extra ~3 seconds or so
05:50<supermop>sold our fridge and now i have to keep beer outside
05:50<supermop>doesnt seem cold enough
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06:00<Supercheese>dig a hole? Might be cooler a bit down
06:00<Supercheese>if you've no cellar
06:01<Supercheese>even if*
06:07<supermop>actually i've never seen a house with a basement in melbourne
06:07<supermop>quite odd
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06:12*andythenorth -> chores
06:12<andythenorth>someone fix the trams while I’m gone, ta
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07:36<rav>wow, adding custom sprites is hard! after digging around, I've found out how to patch media/extra_grf/openttd.nfo, src/newgrf.cpp, src/table/sprites.h, and the separately packaged projects opengfx, grfcodec and nml. to my naive eyes it looks like a lot of code duplication across several projects :-(
07:38<rav>is there a secret way of keeping all those projects synchronized?
07:45<@Alberth>oher than knowing how it works? not really :)
07:46<@Alberth>not sure you'd have to bother with opengfx, grfcodec and nml at this point
07:47<peter1138>grfcodec you do, else it won't let you add anything new
07:47<peter1138>someone made it clever ;(
07:47<@Alberth>:o good point
07:48<@Alberth>ah, 'intelligent' software, such a pain :(
07:54<rav>nml is also clever...
07:54<rav>I had to add an entry to action5_table in nml/actions/
07:55<@Alberth>yeah, but openttd doesn't depend on it
07:56<@Alberth>ie nml is only relevant after your patch has been integrated into openttd
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08:01<andythenorth>is OpenTTD actually dead now? o_O
08:04<@Alberth>define a measurement of deadness, and you'll know :)
08:08<andythenorth>no longer dying
08:09<andythenorth>there are only 2 of you left making regular commits
08:09<andythenorth>forums are just Baldy’s Boss and newbies from Reddit asking questions that were already old in 2008
08:10<andythenorth>irc is just andythenorth writing monologues
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08:11<andythenorth>I’ve just played an 80 year game, and there are no interestingly broken or missing features
08:12<andythenorth>newgrf is ‘solved’, except for RVs and maybe ships
08:12<andythenorth>gameplay and economy variation is provably solved by GS
08:13<andythenorth>content comes from bananas
08:13<andythenorth>translation is sorted
08:13<andythenorth>there are no factions left in the openttd community, all the outsiders got bored or driven away
08:30<@Alberth>sounds like it is then :)
08:31*andythenorth wonders where all the programmers came from
08:31<andythenorth>did they play original TTD in the 1990s?
08:32<@Alberth>quite likely, or at least simulation-ish games, I think
08:32<andythenorth>there was a cohort of people with significant capability :)
08:33<andythenorth>and now
08:33<andythenorth>there is not :)
08:33<@Alberth>programming in the previous century implied getting your hands dirty in the compiled languages
08:34<@Alberth>except for BASIC :)
08:34*andythenorth never got beyond BASIC :)
08:34<@Alberth>but even there you had a lot of POKE and PEEK stuff
08:36<@Alberth>a lot of todays programmers grew up with GPU and 3d rendering
08:36<@Alberth>combined with C# or so
08:36<andythenorth>or javascript
08:37<@Alberth>but then it's a long way to C++ stuff in openttd style
08:37<@Alberth>not to mention the graphics look ancient to those programmers
08:47<andythenorth>are there any interesting patches?
08:51<@Alberth>my notion of 'interesting' is quite skewed wrt general opinion :)
08:58<rav>nice, my autoroad sprites are working:
08:58<rav>(waiting for YouTube to process my 15 second screencast)
08:58<rav>I'll be back in 30-60 minutes
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11:14<andythenorth> hmm
11:14<andythenorth>freight trams next
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11:51*andythenorth thinks that freight trams are long-lived
11:51<andythenorth>and stats don’t change much
11:51<andythenorth>more power, higher speed, same capacity
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12:17<andythenorth>they’re quite big…
12:18<@Alberth>sufficient space off-road :)
12:18<@Alberth>I wonder what goes wrong if you don't increase stats
12:19<andythenorth>if there are no increases at all?
12:19<andythenorth>redundant vehicles :)
12:20<@Alberth>but nuts has models with 255 year lifetime, yet you get increasing stats all the time
12:20<@Alberth>so what 's the game play goal for increasing stats?
12:21<andythenorth>also keeps up with increased industry + town production
12:21<andythenorth>not all micro-management is bad
12:22<@Alberth>yeah, increasing produnction seems a good reason
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12:23<andythenorth>also, the speed of earlier vehicles is annoying
12:23<andythenorth>and there’s a sense of achievment when the vehicles are better
12:23<andythenorth>despite that the player did little :)
12:24*andythenorth has considered some kind of technology ladder before :P
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15:38<Supercheese>nice autoroad improvement, rav
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15:41<rav>thank you
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15:52<rav>the autoroad patch is here -- hopefully I'll get the time to submit it at some point:
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>the thing i love most about election nights is that everybody has a completely different opinion on what the result actually means
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23:17<supermop>hmm why not a brio baseset
23:35<supermop>whoa they even have a brio monorail now
23:35<supermop>not to scale with the brio i had in the 1980s, and the track just looks like regular brio track without the side flanges
23:36<supermop>would be easy to model
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 06 00:00:58 2015