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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-07-07

---Logopened Tue Jul 07 00:00:59 2015
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04:33<Nemoder>I think I found a bug, I had just enough money to buy a train depot but only enough for one of the rail connections, after I bought the 2nd track I got a desync
04:35<Nemoder>when I reconnected the train on the track was much farther along, as if the 2nd track had always been there
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05:03<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: bugs like this are almost impossible to fix without a way to reproduce them quickly
05:04<Nemoder>understandable
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: the cause for a desync was likely way before it was noticed
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: so the desync wasn't related to building the depot at all
05:07<Nemoder>possibly, but I was the only one connected and hadn't been doing anything else for quite some time
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05:09<Nemoder>I'd try to reproduce it but now I'm busy trying to build an empire :P
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes. that makes things worse. because the less you do, the longer the desync will stay undetected
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>at some point, the desync resulted in the server thinking you have more money than your client did, so the server built the additional rail right away, while your client didn't
05:10<Nemoder>ya that makes sense
05:20<Supercheese>good night
05:23<@planetmaker>Nemoder, a desync bug needs action by the server administrator. They need to enable desync debugging on the machine, load a savegame and then wait till it was reproduced by a player
05:24<Nemoder>It's my server, but this was the first desync I've ever had on it. perhaps one of the mods isn't as happy with the new 1.5.1
05:24<@planetmaker>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6331 <-- this is a well-reported desync. And unfortunately with anything less, it's near-to-impossible to find and fix it
05:25<@planetmaker>mods? If you use faked revisions clients, then of course desyncs are likely
05:25<@planetmaker>we can only debug desyncs when both, server and client were built from the exact same source code
05:25<@planetmaker>In all other cases, desyncs are rather expected than not
05:26<Nemoder>an not source mod, just newgrf stuff
05:26<@planetmaker>ah, sorry.
05:26<@planetmaker>They should not matter. But some NewGRFs maybe use a feature which is needed to trigger it. It's still an OpenTTD bug, though
05:26<Nemoder>but ya, that's why I mentioned it casually here instead of proper bug report :)
05:27<@planetmaker>NewGRFs are an officially supported thing. They must not trigger bugs :)
05:27<Nemoder>I'll just keep playing and see if it ever happens again
05:27<@planetmaker>Nemoder, if you want to see it fixed, enable desync debugging, if you can
05:27<@planetmaker>https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Network/Desync_debugging <-- follow these steps
05:28<Nemoder>ya, i'll see if it happens more than once then look into that
05:30<@planetmaker>it's worth to dig into it when you saw it once. The more seldom it occurs, the harder to find. And it's not like you can't simply continue to play and try find that desync with desync debugging enabled at the same time
05:31<@planetmaker>the only backdraw is that it costs performance on the server side and disk space there. But if nothing is found, simply clean all those savegames and the log file
05:32<@planetmaker>and yes, there sadly is really no other way than people who see it to produce the data and give it to us. There's so many variables we are unable to find it ourselves by simply looking and playing
05:32<@planetmaker>(and those which we do, are rather quickly fixed, but there's so many NewGRFs and playing styles...)
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06:38<peter1138>me o'clock
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08:16<supermop_>tried a new ramen place
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08:52<andythenorth>o/
09:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause are the optimum lengths (in n/8 units) for trams in tram stops?
09:06<andythenorth>I want to give trams a significant density advantage (capacity / length) compared to trucks, at the cost of lower speed
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's a huge difference in efficiency between 1.5 tiles and 2 tiles
09:06<andythenorth>oops, I missed ‘what’ at the start of my question, sorry :|
09:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth, 'density' advantage is easiest done by giving it higher capacity. Not necessarily by making them longer. It's independent choices :)
09:07<andythenorth>is 2x the capacity at 2x the length and advantage?
09:07<andythenorth>are the two dimensions orthogonal?
09:07<andythenorth>an / and /s
09:07*andythenorth has typing troubles
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd make between 1 and 1.5 tiles, probably
09:08<andythenorth>1 tile is 16/8?
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>shorter than 1 has issues with overtaking at end stations
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>because before the 1st one arrives and marks the platform as occupied, the 2nd one has already chosen a platform
09:09<andythenorth>so 2 units at 8/8
09:09<andythenorth>or 6/8 engine, 5/8 + 5/8 wagons
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>and 2 or longer means you have to increase station size significantly for multiple units loading at the same time
09:10<andythenorth>yeah, that’s tedious
09:10<andythenorth>the long refit for HEQS trams is annoying in practice
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>this, however is most significant for passenger trams
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>so i'd say 1.5 gives the optimum result
09:10<andythenorth>long trams results in trams that behave like trains w.r.t to blocking, but don’t have any signals etc to handle routing proably
09:11<andythenorth>properly *
09:11*andythenorth is going to go away and drink coffee
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe 1.2
09:11<andythenorth>24/8 or 20/8
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>3x6/8
09:13<andythenorth>hmm
09:13<andythenorth>current vehicles are annoyingly 7/8
09:14<andythenorth>but they need redrawing anyway
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i suppose 3x7/8 would work
09:18<andythenorth>doesn’t seem optimum though
09:18<andythenorth>currently only 75t capacity for 21/8 length
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on how exaggerated your truck capacities are
09:22<andythenorth>approx 200% of RL
09:23<andythenorth>as a rough guide
09:23<andythenorth>30t or 40t
09:23<andythenorth>for the ‘brit’ and ‘euro’ rosters
09:24<andythenorth>typically that would be around 8/8 long
09:25<andythenorth>1 cab + 1 trailer
09:26<andythenorth>(RL is no guide but…) RL trams have axle loads of about 10t, so a 4 axle tram would be 40t gross
09:26<andythenorth>of which about 50% would be payload
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10:43<@planetmaker>Alberth, *prove* wrong ;)
10:44<@planetmaker>Alberth, and you could throw in https://www.openhub.net/p/openttd for reference - that both you and him underestimate the work ;)
10:47<@Alberth>hmm, website is failing for me
10:47<@Alberth>perhaps my provider
10:49<@planetmaker>it quotes 63 years of work for 241k LOC on OpenTTD using the COCOMO model
10:49<@planetmaker>the difference of 60k LOC is probably the comments
10:50<@planetmaker>and blanks
10:50<@planetmaker>anyway, I think your reply is a very nice one
10:51<@planetmaker>as was your original answer
10:51<@Alberth>thanks for the additions
10:52<@planetmaker>:) No worries
10:52<@Alberth>I doubt it will help, but it never hurts to try :p
10:53<@planetmaker>the answer probably won't sway the person you replied to. But is useful for nearly everyone else :)
10:54*planetmaker --> shopping
10:59<peter1138>BLACK DUCK OPENHUB
10:59<peter1138>Because "ohloh" was too hard
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11:09<@Alberth>it wasn't 'open' enough :)
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11:47<Eddi|zuHause>"with decreasing Y-O-Y commits" <-- so they also agree, openttd is dying :p
11:47<andythenorth>dead
11:47<andythenorth>not dying
11:47<andythenorth>all the problems are solved
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12:24<andythenorth>really?
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12:24<andythenorth>pissing contests about LoC count? :o
12:24<andythenorth>:)
12:25<@planetmaker>:)
12:26<andythenorth>everyone talking about LoC should go into management :)
12:26<andythenorth>and pay programmers according to how many LoC they write :)
12:26<andythenorth>that works well
12:27<@planetmaker>:D
12:27<andythenorth>FIRS is 354958 LoC :P
12:33<@Alberth>I'll stop cleaning up code then :p
12:33<andythenorth>does that reduce LoC? o_O
12:33<@Alberth>it happens yes
12:35<@Alberth>it's like the transfer problem, you think you need N, but later someone shows you can do with N-M :)
12:38<andythenorth>has anyone done a linkgraph of dependencies in openttd?
12:38<andythenorth>I can write 300k LoC to do things like generate web pages
12:38<andythenorth>where nothing is connected :P
12:39<@Alberth>firs will have that too, I think
12:39<andythenorth>_most_ of my newgrf compiles would have low-connectedness
12:39<andythenorth>not all, but mostly I achieved it
12:39<andythenorth>whereas OpenTTD is probably very connected
12:40<@Alberth>I would expect so :)
12:41<andythenorth>eh
12:41<andythenorth>also
12:41<andythenorth>the estimates for ‘from scratch’ should figure in ‘build a community'
12:41<andythenorth>or ‘do all your own QA'
12:41<andythenorth>as well as ‘now you have to do support for players'
12:42<andythenorth>‘now you need automated builds'
12:42<andythenorth>‘now you need to maintain your cross-platform toolchain'
12:42-!-frosch123 [~frosch@x4d00d01c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd
12:42<andythenorth>LoC is silly :)
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12:48<frosch123>read it as "lines of comments" and it is better :p
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13:47*andythenorth wonders about ‘lines of bugs'
13:49<+michi_cc>That's identical to lines of code, isn't it? :p
13:50<frosch123>i have seen code with a ratio of 1 to 5
13:50<frosch123>1 easy to spot bug per 5 lines
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13:53<andythenorth>I aim for 1 per line
13:53<andythenorth>more than that is not a good sign
13:55<andythenorth>hmm
13:55<andythenorth>this game might finally be over
13:55*andythenorth played 1970-2050
13:55<@Alberth>:o
13:56<andythenorth>BB has given me a run of boring goals :)
13:56<andythenorth>either I win them automatically due to service provided already
13:56<@Alberth>it's trying to encourage you to stop :p
13:56<andythenorth>or there’s no convenient source for the required cargo
13:56<andythenorth>and I made myself a ‘no funding’ rule :P
13:56<@Alberth>hmm, there should be
13:57<andythenorth>I could use planes :P
13:57*andythenorth screenshots the whole map :P
13:59<andythenorth>only 32MB
14:06<andythenorth>wow
14:06<andythenorth>OpenTTD’s screenshot compression is aggressive
14:06<andythenorth>865MB -> 32MB
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14:08<@Alberth>:)
14:08<andythenorth>photoshop is giving me OOM warnings about attempting to export the same image
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14:10<andythenorth>Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7369/Wafflebury%20Transport,%2007-02-2050%20export.png
14:11<andythenorth>about 50% of the connections are due to BB goals
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14:26<andythenorth>Alberth: any Bee features we should add?
14:26*andythenorth is going to start a new game
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14:38<@Alberth>download fails, I can't seem to connect to most of the internet this evening :(
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14:47<andythenorth>slow internet is slow :P
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14:55<Supercheese>I don't think I've ever bothered to obtain grfcodec source
14:55<Supercheese>since I always use NML
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14:56<frosch123>who would want grfcodec :p
14:56<@Rubidium>Dale?
14:58<Supercheese>pm suggested I also patch grfcodec to support a new animation trigger
14:58<andythenorth>Iron Horse uses grfcodec
14:58<frosch123>i doubt nforenum knows about animation triggers
14:58<andythenorth>although that might be a dubious choice
14:58<Supercheese>I don't entirely know what would be required
14:58<Supercheese>NML just wanted a new global constant defined
14:59<Supercheese>but just using bit 5 without the global constant was perfectly fine too
15:10*andythenorth adventures in trams :P
15:10<andythenorth>Alberth: do you have an opinion on trying to prevent repeating goals in BB? :)
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15:11<@Alberth>yes
15:11<@Alberth>hi W
15:11<@Alberth>it should avoid them imho
15:11<Wolf01>hi hi
15:11<andythenorth>can we just track the destination-cargo pairs?
15:11<@Alberth>should be possible
15:12*andythenorth has deadlocked flash games that way
15:12<andythenorth>unclosed loop
15:12<andythenorth>but eh, that’s maybe not a problem here
15:12<@Alberth>but eventually you'll run out of goals then
15:12<frosch123>the cheap method would be: decide for a goal, hide it for a while, and only if it is not completed within 3 months, actually annouce it as goal
15:12<andythenorth>ha
15:12<andythenorth>this is why andythenorth can be an engineer and product designer, but not a programmer :(
15:12<andythenorth>I never think of things like that
15:13<@Alberth>it's experience :)
15:13<andythenorth>nah, it’s brain
15:13<andythenorth>I have more experience than lots of people here
15:13<andythenorth>@calc (37-5)/37
15:13<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.864864864865
15:13<andythenorth>86% of my life :P
15:14<@Alberth>I am sure you can come up with neat tricks in engineering or product designs
15:14<andythenorth>mostly I design things to try and avoid programming :P
15:14<@Alberth>do they work?
15:14<andythenorth>mostly
15:14<andythenorth>meta-programming :P
15:14<@Alberth>qed
15:15<andythenorth>maybe I just ‘solved’ my tram roster
15:16<andythenorth>gen 1 is steam engine + wagons
15:16<andythenorth>gen 2 is this style http://eurotrams.eu/get_att.php?id=39333
15:16<peter1138>just shove everything in
15:16<andythenorth>gen 3 this style https://manxelectricrailway.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/cg_23_1984.jpg
15:16<andythenorth>peter1138: no no no
15:16<andythenorth>I have to shove it in, but pretend there’s a rationale :P
15:17<andythenorth>also I need to minimise drawing
15:19<frosch123>maybe try making vehicles like industries
15:19<frosch123>draw some partial vehicles
15:19<frosch123>and recombine them into many vehicles
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15:28<andythenorth>frosch123: oddly enough… o_O https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7371/hog-bits-la-la-la.png
15:29<frosch123>make some inclined vans
15:29<frosch123>where the front part is higher than the rear part
15:29<andythenorth>o_O
15:29<frosch123>looks weird, but less regular
15:29<frosch123>it even seems to be common for some tank wagons
15:29<andythenorth>oh step-frame trailers?
15:30<frosch123>https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTI7y1l3kewEcZny1UQren3xlDWSHbYvFxeGbNPQuMlZ0saslZnmg
15:30<andythenorth>oh sloped :)
15:31<andythenorth>in 8bpp? o_O
15:31<andythenorth>at 1x zoom
15:32<frosch123>https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUc5uDfx2ifmbkZ9b47HVVlDn-qZ5O_g6yhcpviAEISX7JgdJdQw <- or some flatbed loaders with cargo on different levels
15:33<andythenorth>yeah that’s step-frame
15:33<andythenorth>trucks in trucks :)
15:35<frosch123>https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTO6aNo4C8Vl6fOjvpkbu_WJIxn3Cob77uyu-pPoyHtR0WdB7okuA <- hmm, i guess that glitches in ottd
15:36<andythenorth>why? :)
15:36<frosch123>trailer is above cabin, not purely behind it
15:36<andythenorth>nah it’s a rigid truck ;)
15:36<andythenorth>‘overtaking permitted’ :P
15:37<andythenorth>overlapping that way does work with trailers, but yeah, not perfect
15:37<andythenorth>have to cut pixels out of the cab
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15:40<frosch123>anyway, i mean the trailers could be more irregular shaped
15:40<frosch123>instead of rectangular
15:41<andythenorth>agreed
15:41<andythenorth>the set needs some feedback tbh
15:41<andythenorth>I am a bit stuck with it
15:42<andythenorth>and Nobody Uses RVs :P
15:43<frosch123>i would use them, if they had some advantage over trams :)
15:44<andythenorth>what qualifies as advantage?
15:44<andythenorth>and which trams? :P
15:44<frosch123>i use them for short distance feeder services
15:44<frosch123>where other people station-walk
15:44<frosch123>they do not need to be fast
15:45<frosch123>but they need high capacity on little space
15:45<andythenorth>how much is ‘high'
15:45<andythenorth>looking at HEQS, the capacities are quite high
15:46<frosch123>servicing 500 units per month using a single road stop
15:46<andythenorth>125t per tram?
15:46<frosch123>usually i use the medium length
15:46<andythenorth>yeah
15:46<frosch123>80t or so
15:47<frosch123>so, maybe rv could be faster accelerating than trams
15:47<frosch123>so they free the stop faster
15:47<andythenorth>cheat the TE?
15:47<andythenorth>hmm
15:47<frosch123>big TE and big loading speed
15:48<frosch123>and not too small capacity
15:48<andythenorth>Road Hog trucks are 30-40t
15:48<andythenorth>seems to work
15:48<andythenorth>they struggle to reach top speed though :P
15:49<andythenorth>so trams need to be 80t-150t or so
15:50<andythenorth>within a 16/8 length
15:50<andythenorth>or a 24/8 length
15:51<andythenorth>so probably 40t per unit or so
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16:02<andythenorth>frosch123: 25mph / 35mph / 45mph? (3 generations 1860-1960)
16:02<andythenorth>or so
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16:05<frosch123>@calc 45*1.6
16:05<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 72
16:06<frosch123>@calc 120/1.6
16:06<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 75
16:06<frosch123>add another generation 1990 with 75 mph?
16:06<frosch123>hmm, maybe only 65
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16:14<andythenorth>oddly enough
16:14<andythenorth>yes
16:14*andythenorth hoped someone would suggest that
16:15<andythenorth>now I just need the option for diesel trams :P
16:23<andythenorth>ha
16:23<andythenorth>the Baldy’s Boss bot is still posting :)
16:24<andythenorth>whoever wrote that code has a good sense of humour
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16:41<andythenorth>also
16:41<andythenorth>bed
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17:21*planetmaker ponders the airplane landing trigger patch
17:24<frosch123>it should pass something usefil in var18
17:24<frosch123>just not sure what :p
17:24<frosch123>not sure whether there is a runway id in the statemachine
17:24<frosch123>and it should also trigger for heliports then
17:25<frosch123>and likely also for taking off :)
17:26<@planetmaker>hm, taking off does not cause black stuff on the runway :)
17:26<@planetmaker>so it would need means to distinguish take-off and touch-down
17:26<frosch123>yes, i think the current patch is over-specific
17:26<frosch123>only triggering for planes is stupid, instead there should be a var which indicates that
17:27<frosch123>something like runway/heliport id
17:27<frosch123>and possibly a second trigger for takeoff
17:28<frosch123>though not sure whether takeoff triggers at the start or end of takeoff
17:28<frosch123>so, possibly touchdown only is better defined for now
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17:37<@planetmaker>hm, yes... landings only. But all, both heli and plane
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17:41<frosch123>doesn't look like the runways are numbered in current state machines
17:43<@planetmaker>any numbering scheme would be arbitrary. And make any newgrf airports even more difficult :)
17:44<frosch123>well, one could use the state number :p
17:44<frosch123>but it has not been as constant in the past
17:44<frosch123>people kept on changing the state machines
17:44<frosch123>to make them more efficient
17:44<frosch123>otoh, number of runways do not change :p
17:45<@planetmaker>but for really custom airports? Also, for the existing ones, how are the runways numbered?
17:45<frosch123>whatever provides the graphics always has runways in specific positions ni mind
17:46<frosch123>it does not matter whether the airports would be big entities, or tile based
17:46<frosch123>the graphics would always be blocks
17:46<frosch123>either one big, or multiple small ones
17:48<@planetmaker>I thought of providing the tile_pos in extra_callback_info2 (that's var 0x18, I think)
17:48*frosch123 ponders adding a trigger byte to AirportFTAbuildup / AirportFTA structs
17:49<frosch123>planetmaker: that's complicated wrt. rotations
17:49<@planetmaker>tile_pos relative to Northern tip... meh :P
17:50<frosch123>but ok, a relative position in default rotation could also work
17:51<frosch123>one byte for X, one byte for Y, one byte for the state change (takeoff start, takeoff end, land begin, touchdown, land end)
17:51<frosch123>(... start loading, finish loading)
17:51<frosch123>possibly all of the transitions states
17:51<@planetmaker>one *byte* for x and y?
17:52<@planetmaker>7 bits each would definitely suffice
17:52<frosch123>yes, airports are bigger than 16x16, aren't they?
17:52<@planetmaker>stations can't be bigger than 64^2
17:52<@planetmaker>and airports are not bigger than 16x16 (currently)
17:53<@planetmaker>biggest is 11x9
17:53<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Airport_Tiles#Relative_position_.2843.29 <- also uses YYXX
17:55<@planetmaker>I had been thinking of http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Object_slope_check_.28157.29
17:56<frosch123>well, there are either YX or YYXX formats
17:57<frosch123>i would pick YYXX if there is enough space
17:58<frosch123>might try something tomorrow
17:58<frosch123>night for now
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17:59<Wolf01>'night
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17:59<@planetmaker>g'night
18:00<@planetmaker>Also from here :)
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18:08<bigyihsuan>Hello all
18:08<bigyihsuan>I'm assuming that this is in the game chat, yes?
18:09<bigyihsuan>wait, never mind
18:09<bigyihsuan>looking for /r/openttd channet
18:09<bigyihsuan>*channel
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19:10<a_sad_dude>is there a place i can go to to spam my new server with weird rules? :)
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>you're probably not going to reach a significant audience in here. and especially not at this hour :p
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>"significant" meaning 1000 people reading it, so 1 of them will actually try it
19:15<a_sad_dude>right :) it's just too hard to find someone to play with these days
19:17<a_sad_dude>anyway, if anyone finds "payment for 20 tiles maximum, no time bonus" an interesting rule to play with, come to "ECS local service" server
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22:54<Supercheese>Patch improved and updated: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6334
22:55<Supercheese>it now fires only at the specific touchdown tile, solving the Intercontinental issue
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 08 00:00:00 2015