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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-07-17

---Logopened Fri Jul 17 00:00:12 2015
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03:22<@planetmaker>andythenorth, are you going to reply to every suggestion that it's pointless and no work done anyway? I do think that it's neither helpful nor exactly true but subject to observation bias
03:23<andythenorth>I did wonder if we should ask for the suggestions forum to be locked
03:23<andythenorth>but then they’d just show up in general OpenTTD forum
03:23<andythenorth>suggestions are inevitable
03:23<@planetmaker>yes. And they're good to have
03:24<@planetmaker>It's good if there are many more than possible to implement
03:25<andythenorth>I dunno, something feels disingenuous to me about it
03:25<andythenorth>maybe that’s irrational
03:25<@planetmaker>yes, maybe. But don't de-value the contributions. Especially in the suggestions forum it's ok to get creative
03:25<andythenorth>encouraging suggestions that will never be acted upon seems a bit morally dubious
03:25<@planetmaker>Answers in the order of 'stop suggestions' are not helpful there
03:25<andythenorth>I wondered about pinning a topic
03:26<andythenorth>explain maybe that suggestions are welcome, but that OpenTTD feature development is mostly ceased
03:26<@planetmaker>that's neither true
03:27<@planetmaker>why do you put an effort in actively killing the project?
03:27<andythenorth>nah it’s already dead :)
03:27<andythenorth>but that’s fine
03:27<andythenorth>it’s done, it works
03:27<andythenorth>most developers left because the work is done
03:27<@planetmaker>if it dies due to dwindling contributions... ok. But telling people "no, we won't do anything", that's stupid
03:28<andythenorth>I am not strongly disagreeing, but I don’t see what we lose by that?
03:28<@planetmaker>we loose any hope. And any future which we might have for the project when we bury it before it's dead
03:29<@planetmaker>so please, bury your openttd future. But let others keep it alive if they wish
03:29<@planetmaker>don't bury it for others, too
03:31<@planetmaker>I really don't see a point in starting a vicious cycle
03:31<@planetmaker>or spinning it more than it does. whatever
03:33<andythenorth>I see it differently :)
03:34<andythenorth>I think OpenTTD has won
03:34<andythenorth>I don’t see any loss of hope :)
03:34<@planetmaker>well, what's the benefit of calling it done and telling everyone "no point in contributing"?
03:35<@planetmaker>It cannot have any positive influence, can it?
03:36<@planetmaker>maybe I just don't get it. But please tell me what you want to achieve by that
03:36<andythenorth>moves the burden of responsibility
03:36<@planetmaker>No-one has a responsibility. We all do stuff voluntarily
03:36<andythenorth>I’ve seen other projects do this, where most of the core contributors had left
03:36<andythenorth>I don’t know whether it succeeded though
03:36<@planetmaker>can you point me to some?
03:36<andythenorth>this = be upfront that there is no more active development
03:39<andythenorth>best example is a now 3 or 4 year debate about future of Plone, here’s an example post
03:39<andythenorth>Plone, similarly to OpenTTD was one of the best open source projects in its area of application
03:40<andythenorth>although tbh, unlike OpenTTD, it’s turned out to be mostly just wrong
03:40<andythenorth>and unlike OpenTTD, it’s bleeding developers to much better projects
03:41<andythenorth>interestingly, a project also largely driven by northern europeans, especially Germans and Dutch and so on, similar to OpenTTD
03:42<@planetmaker>to me (4) doesn't read at all like that attitude
03:42<@planetmaker>on the contrary
03:43<@planetmaker>he just says "we're moving along but with different people"
03:43<andythenorth>yeah, there’s a lot more involved
03:43<andythenorth>couple of people who work with me were involved in the Plone Foundation that looks after the project
03:44<andythenorth>lots of politics for a long time
03:45<andythenorth>ugh, so many Plone articles on google, can’t find what I’m looking for :P
03:46<andythenorth>I dunno, it’s probably a bad example
03:46<andythenorth>Plone mostly sucks, OpenTTD doesn't
03:47<andythenorth>I’ve played it intensively recently
03:47<andythenorth>it’s very good
03:49<JezK>the CMS?
03:49<JezK>or is there another plone?
03:49<@planetmaker>the cms, yes
03:50<JezK>ahh, i was thinking you were talking about another openttd style game called plone =p
03:50<andythenorth>the CMS
03:50<andythenorth>not the ambient music producer on Warp records, for which Plone is named
03:51*andythenorth wonders if there are other OpenTTDs :P
03:54<andythenorth>eh, I really don’t think the current state of trunk dev is a problem
03:54<andythenorth>there are nearly 70 fixes committed since start of 2015
03:54<andythenorth>mostly by frosch
03:54<andythenorth>that’s a lot of fixes
03:55<andythenorth>most of the rest of the commits are translator
03:56<andythenorth>couple of features, both small but important
03:58<@planetmaker>yes, frosch is the true workhorse nowadays
03:58<andythenorth>maybe it just needs articulating more positively
03:58<@planetmaker>we should recruit afd88 ;)
03:58<andythenorth>I stand by the factual truth of what I saud
03:58<andythenorth>said *
03:59<@planetmaker>what factual truth? That we only fix and add translations? That's not a truth, I think
03:59<@planetmaker>that we got less and less commits? sure
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03:59<andythenorth>timeframe probably matters
03:59<@planetmaker>but imho you mostly stated an attitude. And I'm not sure many share that
03:59<andythenorth>MHL and cdist are big changes
03:59<andythenorth>whether they’re successful is another matter
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04:19<andythenorth>eh planetmaker thanks, you’ve caused me to work out what is actually bothering me
04:30<@planetmaker>so, what is it actually, andythenorth ?
04:31<andythenorth>three things, only one is important
04:32<andythenorth>frosch can speak for himself, but he’s the main committer this year, and I worry he’ll end up rage quitting, or just getting bored
04:32<andythenorth>when you’re the only person really working on a big project, the fun goes
04:33<andythenorth>and when there is a constant stream of demands and requests it is annoying
04:33<andythenorth>and when some of the things committed (to get just any new features in) turn out to be failed, or you’re unpicking other people’s mistakes
04:33<andythenorth>then that is a recipe for rage quit
04:33<@planetmaker>yes, also agreed
04:33<andythenorth>e.g. the stuff to get MHL in
04:35<andythenorth>second thing, although trunk OpenTTD is pretty static, GS, NewGRF, AI and web translations are all active
04:37<@planetmaker>ok. How does that bother you, though?
04:37<andythenorth>nah, it’s a good thing actually
04:37<@planetmaker>sounds like cause for elation :) ah, ok
04:37<andythenorth>I wonder if it should be emphasised
04:38<andythenorth>third thing is collaboration
04:39<andythenorth>FIRS and OpenGFX both caused a lot of things to advance, because they drew in lots of people
04:39<@planetmaker>they did, yes. And tbh, making extensions got a lot easier in the last 5 years or so
04:39<@planetmaker>or 6 or 7
04:40<andythenorth>eints was a collaboration
04:40<andythenorth>ah that wasn’t the third thing :P
04:40*andythenorth lacks sleep
04:40<andythenorth>third thing was :D
04:41<andythenorth>far as I can tell, Nobody Who Makes the Game Has Played it in Ages
04:41<andythenorth>I mean, it’s funny for a bit, but actually it’s a good game
04:41<@planetmaker>frosch plays regularily. Alberth, too
04:42<andythenorth>sometimes it seems like irc chat is between people playing the game secondhand via forums :P
04:42<andythenorth>Busy Bee was nearly a collaboration :(
04:42<andythenorth>but I couldn’t learn Squirrel fast enough
04:46<@planetmaker>:) Next one then
04:47<@planetmaker>with reversed roles
04:51*andythenorth bbl, work time
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05:34<newbie2>Hi. I would like to see the local authority rating points. I can see the rating (e.g. 'poor'), but I want to see the rating points (e.g. '-150'). I want to see the points to learn better how it works/changes. Is there a way to see the points?
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06:12<@planetmaker>newbie2, the rating do not have any more detailed interface. However there's a wiki page on those which explain the details
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06:21<newbie2>planetmaker: OK, so I don't need to click around more to try to find it. Thanks.
06:22<newbie2>Also for the pointer to the wiki page.
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12:58<@Rubidium>isn't it still afternoon in BST?
12:58<andythenorth>on the cusp
12:59<andythenorth>in the street outside my office, many people have started their evening
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13:41<Eddi|zuHause>after the noon is before the noon
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>(vaguely based on a famous german football phrase)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27336 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2015-07-17 19:45:14 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 36 changes by Jubilee
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>do english speakers ever use the phrase "beforenoon"?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>there exists the equivalent german phrase
13:47<peter1138>no, that's just morning
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13:47*peter1138 cracks out the cider
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, "beforenoon" would be the phase after you've properly woken up, and are capable of getting actual work done, and before the lunch break
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14:20<andythenorth>peter1138: is it proper cider?
14:23<peter1138>it's... store bought
14:25<andythenorth>not scrump :)
14:25*andythenorth buys westons in pubs
14:25<andythenorth>but it’s a bit…clean
14:26<andythenorth>and doesn’t glow in the dark
14:26<peter1138>an essential attribute
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14:52<andythenorth>eh indulge me
14:52<andythenorth>_if_ there was a v2, and _if_ a v2 is a chance to break backwards compatibility
14:52<andythenorth>what to delete?
14:54<@planetmaker>base set backward compatibility
14:55<@planetmaker>removing newgrf ability to modify the base vehicles. Thus allow base sets to do what they want
14:55<@planetmaker>--> better out-of-box experience
14:56<@planetmaker>we would need to recruit andythenorth, Pokka and V to make us a new, nice one, though
14:56<@planetmaker>but I'm sure they'll manage
14:57<frosch123>he, that's about the most sane suggestion for v2 i have read :)
14:57<frosch123>v1 was to not depend on original baseset
14:57<frosch123>v2 is to not depend on any baseset :p
14:58<@Rubidium>graphics: replace with something better, i.e. no NewGRF but something more sane (remove many inconsistencies), forced rotation of graphics (and thus map rotation), ...
14:58*andythenorth would get rid of drive-in roadstops :P
14:58<andythenorth>small thing, but they’re really crufty
15:00<andythenorth>frosch123: which bits of newgrf spec would go in the bin? o_O
15:00<@planetmaker>v6 and earlier
15:00<@planetmaker>at least
15:00<andythenorth>if Rubidium’s suggestion was enacted, all of newgrf :P
15:00<@planetmaker>vehicles not
15:00<peter1138>multicore rewrite ;)
15:00<andythenorth>if there was rotation, FIRS buildings would all become square, and symmetrical in both axes :P
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15:01<andythenorth>that’s new stuff :)
15:01<andythenorth>not deleting :)
15:01<frosch123>well, certainly decoupling of graphics from game logic
15:01<frosch123>no animation state in map array and such
15:02<frosch123>no tileloop and such
15:02<andythenorth>drop the crazy cargo refitting decision tree :P
15:02<@planetmaker>that then would allow a true client-server structure
15:03<andythenorth>delete outsized maps :)
15:04<frosch123>make it like factorio
15:04<frosch123>make the map expand when you explore/build things
15:04<andythenorth>do I have to install factorio? :P
15:04<andythenorth>it seems to have fans here :)
15:04<frosch123>then we could play multiplayer
15:04<frosch123>i haven't played factorio in multiplayer
15:05<frosch123>but i think it needs to played at #ccop scale
15:05*andythenorth needs time off work
15:05<andythenorth>but if I take time off work, I’ll spend it with my kids
15:05<andythenorth>this is how it goes :P
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15:05*andythenorth isn’t complaining, it’s fun
15:05<frosch123>make the children do the work instead
15:06<andythenorth>nah they’ll be big enough soon
15:06<andythenorth>already 5 years gone by
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15:10<andythenorth>not many deletion suggestions eh? :)
15:10<@Rubidium>okay, you're asking for it... Windows and OSX support
15:12<frosch123>airports :)
15:12<andythenorth>total removal? o_O
15:13<frosch123>similar to drive-in roadstops
15:13<andythenorth>no planes? o_O
15:13<frosch123> <- build aircraft infrastructure like road stops
15:14<frosch123>remove the statemachine stuff
15:14<frosch123>statemachines are boring
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15:14<andythenorth>canals :P
15:14<frosch123>boring as timetables, cdist, pbs, pathfinders, ... all the things that decide things for the player
15:15<frosch123>though i guess pathfinders needs to stay an option :p
15:15<andythenorth>timetables are boring
15:15<andythenorth>cdist is…technically impressive, but only really works for pax :P
15:15<andythenorth>pbs I would really miss :(
15:15<andythenorth>PBS probably the single most transforming feature I’ve seen ship :P
15:16<frosch123>we need a different type of pbs :p
15:16<frosch123>it should not be one that routes vehicles automatically
15:16<andythenorth>by making trains pretty easy to route on complex networks, PBS disadvantages the other transport types even more
15:17<frosch123>but one that allows players to (optionally) micromanage which routes may enter the signal block in parallel
15:17<andythenorth>also PBS introduction was when I turned breakdowns off
15:17<frosch123>nah, breakdowns will stay, else it's no "ttd" :p
15:17<andythenorth>probably coincidence, but trains seemed to not find depots reliably without explicit orders
15:18<andythenorth>after PBS
15:18<frosch123>no coincidence
15:18<@planetmaker>lol frosch123 :)
15:18<frosch123>a train follows a reserved path
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15:18<frosch123>so, a train needs to make the decision to go to a depot at the signal instead of at the junction
15:18<frosch123>so, path to depots is longer
15:19<frosch123>also, path penalties are different with pbs signals
15:19<frosch123>so, i am not surprised that pbs breaks some depot track layouts
15:19<frosch123>though none which i use :p
15:21*andythenorth is shocked
15:21<andythenorth>nobody mentioned high score table :)
15:21<frosch123>aren't they already removed? :p
15:22<frosch123>funnily noone complained about that :p
15:23<@planetmaker>no-one used it anyway ;)
15:23<andythenorth>still here for me :P
15:24<frosch123>andythenorth: there were once 4 highscore tables
15:24<frosch123>now there is 1
15:24*andythenorth has to test this
15:25*andythenorth finds
15:25<andythenorth>- high score table in start game screen
15:25<andythenorth>- high score table in game
15:25<andythenorth>- detailed performance rating
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15:26<andythenorth>- company league table
15:26<frosch123>there are 5 highscore tables
15:26<andythenorth>balls, I missed some :(
15:26<frosch123>3 for difficulty levels (removed), 1 for custom difficulty (still exists), 1 for multiplayer (only within a single game, not stored on disk)
15:27<andythenorth>in the start game screen
15:27<andythenorth>get rid of ‘game options’ and ‘high score table’ and the layout balances :)
15:29<@planetmaker>and add 'wiki' and 'favourite server' buttons instead
15:32<andythenorth>in this mind game, you can’t make feature suggestions, no matter how good :)
15:33<andythenorth>remove maglev :P
15:33<andythenorth>mostly because it’s ugly
15:33<frosch123>well, i guess remove the stuff which noone care about, like stocks :p
15:34<andythenorth>they are so lame
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15:34<andythenorth>railroad tycoon 3 had an awesome stock market
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15:34<andythenorth>some scenarios were pure stock trading
15:35<andythenorth>did infrastructure costs actually achieve the aim of rebalancing the game?
15:35<andythenorth>or is it just something that we forget to turn off in multiplayer?
15:36<frosch123>it removed airports from the game or so :p
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15:37<frosch123>anyway, yes, none of the air features like noise limit, distance limit, infra cost seem to have received any big scale approval
15:37<@planetmaker>inflation... should go
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15:37<@planetmaker>but doesn't really matter
15:37<frosch123>realism should go :)
15:38<andythenorth>noise limit is just a thing I have to use OpenGFX+ Airports to circumvent
15:38<andythenorth>one reason we don’t play those fun MP games very often
15:38<andythenorth>is that it takes so fricking long to configure a game ‘correctly'
15:39<frosch123>that's only because my settings are always messed up due to debugging
15:40<andythenorth>and so are mine…and planetmaker’s…and alberth’s :P
15:40<frosch123>we need settings profiles :)
15:40<frosch123>maybe load the previous game, change the seed and use "restart" to get new map with same settings
15:41<andythenorth>intriguing idea
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15:41<andythenorth>what else confuses people to no benefit?
15:41*andythenorth is looking in the game
15:41<andythenorth>so many *good* features got added
15:42<andythenorth>the game is radically better than 0.4 or whatever I started playing
15:42<frosch123>the best features were always the interface features :)
15:42<frosch123>and removing building restrictions
15:43<andythenorth>roadstops on steep slopes
15:43<andythenorth>alphabetised lists
15:43<andythenorth>map colour
15:43<andythenorth>and so on
15:43<andythenorth>most of the attempts to ‘fix game balance’ or ‘add realism’ are FAIL
15:44<@planetmaker>they're fail because of backward compatibility
15:44<frosch123>really? why?
15:45<frosch123>game balance is not fixable, because "money" is the only thing in ottd, and money is gained exponentially in every game i have ever seen
15:45<frosch123>thus most games have something other than money
15:45<andythenorth>the casual games (dragon farming, angry birds etc) my kids play
15:46<@planetmaker>maybe not because of that. But makes it definitely harder :)
15:46<frosch123>"realism" is has ruined quite some features which should have been interesting, but i do not see where compatibility goes into that
15:46<andythenorth>frosch123: is ‘smooth economy’ actually better?
15:46<andythenorth>I never tested FIRS without it
15:47*andythenorth wondered
15:47<frosch123>when i was a noob to ottd i thought smooth economy was awesome
15:47<andythenorth>and saw the comment added
15:47<frosch123>but it's a stochastical fallacy
15:47<frosch123>like your 3 doors thingie
15:47<andythenorth>what was the intent of it?
15:47<frosch123>smooth economy actually removes randomness, by adding so many small random changes, that they all average out
15:48<frosch123>andythenorth: likely "realism" :p
15:48<andythenorth>needs black swan events :P
15:48<andythenorth>’multiple industries per town’ still a setting, really?
15:48<andythenorth>how boring
15:49<frosch123>yeah, that's a weird setting :p
15:49<@planetmaker>that's indeed weired
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: FIRS overrides smooth economy with the production callback
15:49<andythenorth>I know
15:49<@planetmaker>is it still real?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so the setting has no effect
15:50<andythenorth>yes, the help text also explains the same
15:50<andythenorth>towns can’t prevent newgrf building multiple industries per town?
15:50*andythenorth tests
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>the last time i played without an industry set (and thus with smooth economy) was before industry sets were supported
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically, the first industry set i played was alpine, which probably leaves smooth economy untouched
15:51<andythenorth>ho, no the multiple industry setting does apply to newgrf
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, why wouldn't it?
15:53<andythenorth>because the location cbs are used?
15:53<andythenorth>why wouldn’t the smooth economy apply to industries using production cb?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>because there can only ever be one way to set the production level
16:00<andythenorth>dunno, seems to be unclear about proper domain
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody made the production callback compatible with non-power-of-two increments
16:00<andythenorth>remove canals?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>make them cheaper to build, but more expensive to maintain
16:01<andythenorth>that’s just newgrf
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>ignore newgrfs
16:01<andythenorth>fair comment
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>99% of all people will never use newgrfs
16:01<@planetmaker>I don't think so
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>99% of all people will never change the default settings
16:02<andythenorth>remove rivers?
16:02<frosch123>remove flooding sea?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>(this applies to almost all programs ever made)
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that sounds fine
16:03<andythenorth>frosch123: interesting
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: offer flat shore sprites
16:03<andythenorth>‘Disable electric rails’
16:03<andythenorth>is that just a setting in case you have a stuck train?
16:04<andythenorth>does it also make all railtypes powered?
16:04<frosch123>it's from the time when catenary was horribly misaligned
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>or remove the current way of providing sea shores, and provide them more like river shores (but a sandy-er version)
16:04<frosch123>and people wanted to play without elrails
16:04<frosch123>then it was properly aligned, and then came transpacency settings
16:04<frosch123>andythenorth: you missed eddi's hind
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that is a setting for TTD-purists that basically has no point in being there anymore
16:04<frosch123>flat shores mean flat docks :p
16:05<andythenorth>that’s a feature :)
16:05<andythenorth>not a deletion
16:05<andythenorth>you have to phrase it as ‘delete docks that need slopes'
16:05<@planetmaker>probably would make sense. And flat bridges= :P
16:05<andythenorth>deleting a lot of things would transform the game to a v2, and clear away a lot of crap
16:05<andythenorth>and is achieveable :P
16:06<andythenorth>adding features needs design, spec, blah blah blah
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the "remove electric rail" settings make all electric trains also powered on non-electric rail
16:06<andythenorth>it looked like a thing for unsticking stuck trains :P
16:06<andythenorth>seems daft
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and then converts all ELRL to RAIL
16:07<andythenorth>remove river rapids?
16:07<andythenorth>dunno, rivers are tedious
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, but make it more obvious that ships cannot traverse them, and make locks easier to place along such a rapid
16:07<peter1138>oh yeah, i was doing something with docks wasn't i?
16:07<andythenorth>probably :)
16:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: shorter locks?
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>there is no reason why locks are as huge as they are, other than the ships are also huge
16:09<@planetmaker>locks should just be normal station tiles which can be placed on water or shore tiles
16:09<andythenorth>remove the bit of cb15E that makes it trivial to break orders silently :)
16:09<andythenorth>planetmaker: locks / docks /s
16:09<@planetmaker>freely buildable like track-less rail station tiles
16:09<@planetmaker>yes, dock tiles. sorry
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i called these things "traffic objects"
16:09<andythenorth>ha, remove cargo subtypes…? o_O
16:10<andythenorth>they’re dozy
16:10<@planetmaker>yes, probably
16:10<andythenorth>even though I use subtypes in a few places still :P
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>look at how subtypes are abused currently, and provide new methods reproducing those features without abusing anything
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>like "vehicle views" that are set in purchase menu, and then cannot be changed anymore afterwards
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>other than selling the vehicle and buying a new one
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16:14<andythenorth>remove the cbs that aren’t cb 36, but duplicate it
16:14<frosch123>andythenorth: we were already at remove newgrf
16:14<frosch123>why do you talk calbacks?
16:14<andythenorth>oh yeah
16:15*andythenorth apologises profusely
16:15<andythenorth>somehow I’d like to remove finances window, but that makes no sense
16:16*andythenorth finds the finances window really non-useful
16:17<peter1138>remove openttd
16:18<andythenorth>this is not a game of mornington crescent
16:18<andythenorth>and you do not pass go and collect £200
16:19<andythenorth>ho, remove trams...?
16:19<andythenorth>they’re a bit silly
16:19<frosch123>maybe remove vehicle income
16:20<andythenorth>that is actually interesting
16:20<andythenorth>would totally change the game
16:20<andythenorth>it’s crap as an economic sim
16:20<andythenorth>the economics were clearly a total “can’t really be arsed” for Chris Sawyer
16:20<frosch123>you get money for building tracks and providing a transport capacity
16:21<andythenorth>you have a total cost, and a total revenue
16:21<frosch123>you lose money if you fail to provide the capacity
16:21<andythenorth>no more leg profit calculation crap
16:21<andythenorth>no more ‘this vehicle is losing money'
16:21<andythenorth>no more feature requests for full vehicle economic history
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16:21<andythenorth>no need for red / green symbols in the vehicle list
16:22<andythenorth>frosch123: experimental branch? o_O
16:23<frosch123>not for me :p
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16:23<frosch123>money is after all still not interesting :p
16:23*andythenorth wonders if it’s a good idea, or just sounds like a good idea
16:23-!-JacobD88 [] has quit []
16:24<frosch123>it's certainly an idea which noone will understand :p
16:24<andythenorth>well, I understood it :(
16:25<andythenorth>in the dragon farming casual game, individual dragon profitability is not tracked :P
16:25<andythenorth>they just farm wood and fish, and you get a score :P
16:25<andythenorth>you pick the ones that look cool and have good stats
16:27<andythenorth>frosch123: eh, money is not interesting, or money should be removed from the game totally?
16:29<frosch123>you need something to pace the game
16:30<andythenorth>could be other ways
16:30<andythenorth>tech levels and such
16:30<andythenorth>‘level up’ is a very silly mechanic
16:30<andythenorth>except it works, annoyingly well :(
16:30<frosch123>you should be able to do what is necessary, but not more
16:30<andythenorth>‘state-owned transportation tycoon'
16:30<frosch123>hmm, remove landscaping? :p
16:31<andythenorth>that would hurt my game style :)
16:31<@planetmaker>well, one kinda can do that already. To some degree
16:31<frosch123>i think most modern games do not support landscaping
16:31<frosch123>but only tunneling and foundations
16:31<frosch123>to some limited amount
16:31<andythenorth>minecraft? o_O
16:31*andythenorth doesn’t play many games tbh
16:32<frosch123>i don't think "landscaping" fits into the minecraft category
16:33*andythenorth considers trying a game with self-imposed no landscaping rule
16:33<frosch123>can you landscape in todays' simcity? or train fever?
16:33<andythenorth>not in Railroad Tycoon
16:33<frosch123>i only saw bridges, tunnels and foundations
16:33<frosch123>but no manual hills
16:34<frosch123>and certainly no hill flattening or sea flooding
16:34<frosch123>i.e. the landscape is static except for where tracks are
16:35<andythenorth>how about landscaping, but only 1 level above or below original grade?
16:38<@planetmaker>yes... would increase the challange in some places
16:41*andythenorth has run out of removal ideas
16:41<andythenorth>did I mention trams?
16:43<peter1138>that would ruin copy & paste
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16:46<andythenorth>just remove that :)
16:46<andythenorth>perhaps not :P
16:49<andythenorth>frosch123: remove station walking? o_O
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16:51<frosch123>one could reduce the incoming for the distance from train wagon to industry
16:52<frosch123>but we already removed vehicle income
16:52<frosch123>so, crap :p
16:52<frosch123>i.e. a feeder truck from industry to station platform should be cheaper than using the station spread for transport
16:53<frosch123>possibly needs trucks on stations
16:53<frosch123>cargo is not stored in the station sign, but on single platforms or even tiles
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16:53<frosch123>you can use trucks to move cargo to platforms
16:54<frosch123>or pay for expensive automatic transport within station spread
16:54<frosch123>whenever the game does something automatically for you
16:55<andythenorth>would also unintentionally improve the display of cargo at stations (except we’re deleting newgrf) :)
16:55<frosch123>there should be the option to do it better with micro management
16:55<frosch123>i think that holds for everything in the game: signalling, routing, cargo distribuition
16:56<frosch123>automatic is easy mode, manual adjustments are advanced mode
16:56<andythenorth>like a camera :P
16:56<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> you lose money if you fail to provide the capacity <-- that is how i think subsidies should work
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>you get 60 months exclusive rights, if you transport <X> during that time, you get paid, otherwise you lose money
16:57<frosch123>whenever there was something that could not be controlled correctly in ottd, someone added some automatic to solve it
16:57<andythenorth>that’s hard to do well :P
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i always wanted to micromanage approach loops on airports
16:57<andythenorth>but it avoids user interface design
16:58<frosch123>like pbs to replace detailed signalling/routing, cdist to replace fractional transfer orders
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>but the timetabling was not fine enough
16:58<andythenorth>also the trend to larger maps tends towards automation
16:58<@planetmaker>then we need to allow afd88 the polyline track tool. And the other one with multi-tracks, too ;)
16:58<andythenorth>because I have 10,000 trains :(
16:58<frosch123>timetabling to replace programmable orders
16:58<@planetmaker>and actually... they make sense
16:59<frosch123>polyline is nice, yes
16:59*andythenorth would sooner have a 100 year game on a 256x256 map :P
16:59<@planetmaker>we should probably tell him...
16:59<frosch123>multitrack is not quite for me
16:59<frosch123>it's along the copy&paste stuff, it has no purpose on interesting maps
17:00<andythenorth>I just spent 75 years making one spine route work on this map :P
17:00<andythenorth>maybe I’m just bad at train networks, dunno
17:00<andythenorth>but Busy Bee kept wanting stuff added :P
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>multitrack tool will only mean that i always pick the wrong track tile to extend
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>so the other track is on the wrong side
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why does this screenshot look so distorted?
17:02<frosch123>anyway, to finish my point. i don't think automatics make good gameplay
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i do
17:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: compressed to make it smaller
17:02<frosch123>there should always be a micromanagent option
17:02<andythenorth>it was silly size
17:03<andythenorth>frosch123: +1
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, but there should always also exist an atomatic option
17:03*andythenorth is now micro-managing cdist :P
17:03<frosch123>same for airports. the newgrf statemachine spec makes an interesting challenge for the newgrf author to design their favorite airport
17:03<@planetmaker>:) true. But not for the player
17:03<andythenorth>too many features for authors :P
17:03<andythenorth>except the ones I asked for
17:03<frosch123>but it is as boring to gameplay as placing a fixed 16x16 object that always looks the same
17:03<andythenorth>they’re great
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: include the airport minigame into grfcodec ;)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: or the game, for that matter
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17:05<andythenorth>frosch123: after my last few games, I’m convinced the fun is cramming routes into the terrain
17:05<andythenorth>not pissing about making pseudo economic choices about which vehicle to use and such
17:05<frosch123>andythenorth: that has always also been my goal :)
17:06<frosch123>thus mountainious maps, and silicon valley
17:07<frosch123>the goal of silicon valley is actually how i mostly play
17:07<andythenorth>my last map had only one of each major processing industry
17:07<andythenorth>defacto, similar result :P
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i've never used silicon valley
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>also, i rarely ever get to play with cargos, as passengers are trumping everything
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>passengers are IMBA!
17:09<frosch123>i never liked pax, because they are bidirectional
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>i always liked pax since i played paxdest
17:10<frosch123>transporting something back after you transported it to some place never made sense to me :p
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>before that i found pax incredibly boring and stupid
17:10<frosch123>well, the only interesting thing i see about cdist is that it increases the network load over time, by making cargo stay longer on board
17:10<frosch123>but that likely only works for pax
17:11<frosch123>so, well, yes, cdist for pax :)
17:12<andythenorth>I don’t like to criticise cdist :|
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, cargodist works best on passengers, and worst on goods/food
17:12<andythenorth>but it has rather a lot of user visible settings, for something that only automates transfers
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>it makes other cargos easier to transfer, but may have side effects
17:13<andythenorth>you just have to change route building
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17:14<andythenorth>one pickup station per destination
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>no. one destination per cargo
17:14<andythenorth>then station rating takes care of distribution, and cdist does the transfer
17:14<frosch123>maybe we should rename it
17:14<frosch123>"cargo distribution" -> "cargo-based pathfinder" :p
17:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: nah that is totally incompatible with GS like Busy Bee
17:15<andythenorth>my method works
17:15<andythenorth>and it increases the challenge interestingly, because more stations have to be crammed in around an industry
17:15<andythenorth>instead of one mega station, which is trivial
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, one destination per linkgraph connected component
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>but you run into the problem of only 2 stations getting cargo
17:16<andythenorth>is that a thing that happens?
17:17<andythenorth>I had unexpected vehicles-waiting when I had 5 or so pickup stations
17:17<andythenorth>all with very high ratings
17:17<andythenorth>and cargo waiting at other stations
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, only the 2 stations with highest rating get cargo. so unless the rating drops because of cargo waiting, the other stations never get cargo
17:18<andythenorth>my new method is totally flawed :(
17:18<andythenorth>I thought I’d defeated cdist :(
17:18<@planetmaker>I think that's a limit which also could go. Or the logic behind distribution onto stations could use a change
17:18<andythenorth>I assumed it was a bug :P
17:19<frosch123>yup, reduce station spread, and add truck transport to single industries :p
17:19<frosch123>the problem does not exist with zero station catchment area :p
17:19<frosch123>give all industries built-in truck stops
17:19<andythenorth>how do the trucks pickup from the industry? o_O
17:19<andythenorth>we had a hack for that in FIRS :P
17:19<andythenorth>gaps in buildings :P
17:19<@planetmaker>hm, interesting idea, frosch123
17:20<frosch123>but rv capacity actually must be able to serve a single industry's output :p
17:20<andythenorth>that is…hmm
17:20<andythenorth>could be done :P
17:20<frosch123>usually that has been a fail part of those "gaps in building"
17:20<frosch123>a signle tile station cannot handle the load
17:21<andythenorth>make RV stations like depots :P
17:21<andythenorth>probably not a direction you like :)
17:21<andythenorth>infinite capacity, constrained throughput rate
17:21<andythenorth>‘upgrade this industry’
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17:22<frosch123>make rv slow, high capacity and expensive
17:22<andythenorth>I believe somebody tried that once
17:22<frosch123>so they work only as feeder
17:22<andythenorth>add the conveyor / pipe transport type
17:22<andythenorth>but also slow and expensive
17:22<frosch123>the high capacity makes them able to move cargo to station
17:23<frosch123>but the slow speed and high cost makes them unable to turn in a profit
17:23<andythenorth>sounds like a tram :P
17:23<frosch123>which must be done by the fast train
17:23<frosch123>but the fast train is unable to pickup the cargo directly from the industry
17:23<andythenorth>is this how factorio works?
17:23*andythenorth googles
17:24<frosch123>factorio has 4 transport methods
17:24<frosch123>belts, which are awesome
17:24<frosch123>pipelines which are boring, essentially like canals :p
17:24<frosch123>trains which i haven't figured out how to use correctly, and i am currently thinking they only work at #coop scale
17:25<frosch123>and flying robots, which are like aircraft. too easy to be fun
17:27<andythenorth>hmm, there is OS X version
17:28<andythenorth>ach /me should go to sleep
17:28<andythenorth>did someone make a copy of the deletion roadmap then? ^^^^^ o_O
17:29<frosch123>just delete everything
17:29<frosch123>then add back what you want to keep
17:30<frosch123>that way you do not miss something to remove
17:31<andythenorth>oh I actually have to run around in factorio?
17:31<frosch123>it is also possibly to play without character
17:31<andythenorth>hmm inventory and stuff
17:31*andythenorth is not very good at this kind of game :P
17:31<frosch123>not sure what method is easier to play
17:31<andythenorth>I have enough trouble remembering my RL phone and keys
17:31<frosch123>with a character you are blocked by inftrastructure
17:32<andythenorth>the alternative is freeplay?
17:32*andythenorth will try more tomorrow
17:32<andythenorth>I tried Kerbal for a bit, but couldn’t work it
17:33<andythenorth>Euro Truck Simulator 2 has awful graphics, so that was disappointing
17:33<andythenorth>I had a bridge building game, but couldn’t complete level 12 or such
17:33<andythenorth>and 2048 is over :P
17:33*andythenorth needs a new game
17:33<andythenorth>also bed
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17:35<frosch123>hmm, bridge builder... that was a thing in 2001 :p
17:35<frosch123>hmm, likely even somewhat earlier
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>i played bridge builder around 2001, but none of the updated/remade versions that came later
17:40<frosch123>i also tried the first 3d version as a demo
17:40<frosch123>but it did not convince me
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>what ever happened to Moorhuhn?
17:40<frosch123>it got replaced with candy crush
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>that was probably the first viral game i came across
17:41<frosch123>after solitaire?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>that wasn't exactly viral, in the sense that it was spread by "mouth-to-mouth"
17:42<frosch123>anyway, today people play on their smartphones at work, no longer on the office computers :p
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>it was just there, so everybody played it
17:42<Hiddenfunstuff>how bout that space pinball found from Win XP?
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>Hiddenfunstuff: same story
17:42<frosch123>i liked the epic pinball from 1993 or so
17:42<frosch123>no other pinball was as interesting after that
17:43<frosch123>"epic megagames pinball" or so
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember how the pinball game i played was called
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>the first game ever that i remember playing was sokoban
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>and a version of tetris that went way too fast unless you pressed the turbo button
17:44<frosch123>wow, i guessed the date correctly :o
17:44<frosch123>didn't expect that
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no, it was definitely not that
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>also, it was probably earlier than that
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17:51<frosch123> <- there was also that one
17:52<frosch123>cleary written with borland stuff
17:52<frosch123>and seriously buggy
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>that wasn't it either
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>also, i have no clue what to search for
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>and i have no floppy disk drive to comb through old disks
17:53<frosch123>well, that one was from 1989
17:53<frosch123>those two are the oldest ones i know
17:54<peter1138>gotta love those borland fonts
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>i think it had a guy with a long nose on the title screen
17:56<peter1138>oh that url :(
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe i'm totally mixing up memories there
17:57<frosch123>egavga.bgi is only about 5kb :p
17:58<frosch123>goth.chr is 8.5kb
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>first time someone showed me a program displaying gothic font, it blew my mind
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>it was actually really simple, i think it showed "hello world" in 3 sizes (erasing the previous one before displaying the next)
17:59<frosch123>likely same here, but i mostly remember the laserjet 4 which could print with dom casual
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that is
18:00<frosch123>hmm, laserjet 4 is too new, maybe laserjet 2
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>wingdings was fun to play with for about 10 minutes
18:00<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: comic sans, but oldschool
18:00<frosch123>those were postscript fonts built into the printer
18:01<frosch123>you could actually not display them on screen
18:01<frosch123>dos word 5 supported them, textmode on screen, fancy bold hand writing when printing
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i recently read an article that talked about how comic sans was a perfectly acceptable font, and when it became "the most evil thing ever invented" it was already on decline
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, dos wordperfect had a mode where you could display a graphical version of the page, showing the layout and fonts and stuff
18:02<frosch123> <- well, it's the grand father of comic sans or so
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>but you couldn't edit in that mode, that WYSIWYG stuff was a buzzword for windows
18:03<frosch123>i think dos word also had a graphical preview, but it did not know the printer fonts :p
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>hm, in wordperfect, you could select a printer driver, and then it would change the selection of fonts available
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if it knew all the fonts of all the printers ever invented
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 18 00:00:14 2015