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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-07-18

---Logopened Sat Jul 18 00:00:14 2015
00:37-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
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01:18<andythenorth>bird of Pikka
01:18<andythenorth>you haz started a kicker
01:20<@Alberth>I hope he already knows :)
01:21<andythenorth>pictures and everything
01:27<andythenorth>Alberth: sometimes you are getting up very early it seems
01:27<andythenorth>even earlier than me :o
01:29*andythenorth backs the thing
01:29<@Alberth>yeah, trying another day-rythm, get up around 6 am
01:29<@Alberth>which is easy I am awake at that time already :)
01:33<andythenorth>my children are experimenting with 4.50 am
01:33<andythenorth>maybe it’s a life hack
01:37<@Alberth>I did manage a bit after 5, but not before it, so far :)
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01:45<andythenorth>oh dear
01:45<andythenorth>factorio seems quite addictive
01:45<andythenorth>even though it’s quite ugly
01:56<Pikka>morning all :)
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02:03<Pikka>thanks andythenorth :)
02:15*andythenorth got bored of factorio
02:15<andythenorth>such low attention span :P
02:17<andythenorth>UI is clunky
02:17<andythenorth>and it’s not pretty
02:20<andythenorth>Alberth: btw, you missed an opportunity to propose feature removals :)
02:41<@Alberth>:o I hope you filled in for me :)
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02:47<andythenorth>see the logs :)
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03:09<@Terkhen>good morning
03:10<sla_ro|master>morning :P
03:45*andythenorth wonders about hiding drive-in roadstops in the UI
03:46<andythenorth>probably something related to ShowRVStationPicker
03:49<andythenorth>ha ha
03:49<andythenorth>I’ve disabled the widgets :)
03:49<andythenorth>that was easy
03:49<andythenorth>did it in a silly way though
03:49<andythenorth>I’ve replaced ‘_cur_roadtype == ROADTYPE_TRAM’ in some if statements with ‘true’ :P
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03:51<Wolf01>hi o/
03:51<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
03:53*andythenorth proposes to move ‘enable drive-in roadstops’ to a cfg file setting
03:53<andythenorth>and then remove it in future :P
03:57<Wolf01>you mean "drive trough"?
03:58<andythenorth>nope :)
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04:07<Wolf01>having 6 sealed lego sets and no space to put them after they are built is a struggle :(
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04:11<Wolf01>where is that setting now? I only have the drive-through one, and just the ownership limitations for it
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04:13<@Alberth>using trams?
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04:25<andythenorth>Wolf01: the setting doesn’t exist yet :)
04:25*andythenorth proposes adding it, and hiding it away in .cfg :P
04:25<andythenorth>then turning off drive-in stops
04:25<andythenorth>it’s an example of a boring choice
04:25<andythenorth>drive-in stops have absolutely no benefit
04:26<andythenorth>they don’t permit articulated vehicles, and allegedly they perform worse than drive-through
04:26<Wolf01>I still use them at the very beginning
04:26<andythenorth>the only reason for them is ‘because TTD'
04:27<andythenorth>they also enforce odd design choices on newgrfs
04:27<andythenorth>a non-articulated vehicle model can never be superseded by an articulated model
04:27<andythenorth>bit weird
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04:50<andythenorth>o_O ?
04:52<@Alberth>wrong icon in the cursor :)
04:53<andythenorth>patches are never simple :P
04:53<andythenorth>I’d have to redraw that?
04:53<andythenorth>we’d never remove these stops
04:53<andythenorth>because two players might complain about it in forums
04:53<andythenorth>as many as three even
04:53<andythenorth>but /me can dream
04:57<@Alberth>tbh, I quite like them, they very easy to use
04:59<andythenorth>compared to drive-through? o_O
04:59<@Alberth>with driver-through you need to make a circle
05:00<andythenorth>because otherwise it looks ugly?
05:00<@Alberth>it does tome
05:00<andythenorth>the drive-in stops look much better
05:00<andythenorth>and make neater stations
05:01<@Alberth>drive-in also has no problem with loaded vehicles getting blocked
05:01<andythenorth>depends how many you have adjacent
05:01<andythenorth>Alberth: you only use base set or ogfx RVs?
05:02<@Alberth>mostly baseset I think
05:02<andythenorth>Pikka: your ‘articulated’ vehicles aren’t actually articulated?
05:02<@Alberth>can't usually be bothered to load a RV set
05:03*andythenorth wonders if articulated vehicles are the problem
05:03<andythenorth>maybe delete those
05:03<@Alberth>although your road hog is nice, with the trams
05:03<andythenorth>maybe all trucks should be 1 unit, like original game
05:04<andythenorth>that also solves overtaking
05:04<@Alberth>longer vehicles make more diversity, which is nice
05:05<@Alberth>but eg loaded vehicle blocked behind a loading vehicle should just try to overtake
05:05<andythenorth>eventually they’ll wormhole
05:05<andythenorth>I think
05:05<@Alberth>they do afaik, but you want to avoid that
05:06<andythenorth>something is awry with current RVs
05:06<andythenorth>it’s not ‘just the design, live with it’
05:06<andythenorth>it’s fractured somehow
05:06<andythenorth>designing an RV set is ridiculously hard
05:07<@Rubidium>andythenorth: regarding your question of yesterday; the removal "graphics" also includes reconsidering better scaling of vehicles and the likes
05:07<andythenorth>lengths and so on?
05:07<@Rubidium>i.e. get rid of the lengthening/shortening in corners, bridges being lower than vehicles, ...
05:08<@Rubidium>and maybe even increase the "default" length
05:08<@Rubidium>plus probably some method to give a more 3D bounding box of the vehicle to prevent loads of glitches
05:09<@Rubidium>the latter would, in essence, make it possible to not care much about vehicle length at all. Just provide an appropriate bounding box
05:10<andythenorth>no more crazy Iron Horse 3-part train wagons
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05:25<andythenorth>walk the dog
05:25<Pikka>my trucks aren't articulated, yes
05:25<andythenorth>maybe that is the way forward
05:25<Pikka>optional road trains with additional trailers will be
05:25*andythenorth is finding that an RV set is quite rage-quity
05:26<andythenorth>not surprising there is only one good one complete
05:27<@Rubidium>oh, andy... dropping all graphics and NewGRF also allows us to make all climates available on the same map
05:28<@Rubidium>yay for going from toyland to desert via arctic ;)
05:29<Pikka>keeping it simple is definitely helping me, andy
05:31<andythenorth>Pikka: no trams? o_O
05:32<Pikka>yes trams.
05:32<Pikka>at the moment only passenger trams planned though
05:32<andythenorth>trams are appalling
05:33<Pikka>people seem to like them, so I'll add them and not fret over them too much :)
05:33<andythenorth>do all your truck models go the same speed?
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05:34<Pikka>not quite, but I only have one of each truck type per generation, I don't have seperate fast/big/powerful/cheap/etc classes.
05:35<andythenorth>me also
05:35<andythenorth>but eh, yours aren’t articulated
05:35<andythenorth>so you can set whatever speed you like
05:35*andythenorth realises
05:35<andythenorth>with articulated, there is no point setting speeds differently on different models
05:36<andythenorth>slowest vehicle sets the speed of all other vehicles
05:39<Pikka>slight differences within generations, c.5mph.
05:40<Pikka>trams and buses are the faster/slower outliers, coaches are about the same speed as trucks.
05:45*andythenorth has about 10mph, some things are more express than others
05:45<andythenorth>hmm also log trucks and dump trucks are much slower
05:45<andythenorth>and that blocks everything else
05:46<Pikka>overtaking definitely helps
05:46<Pikka>also, as with the trains, most of my vehicles are underpowered and don't spend all of their time cruising at top speed, especially if it's hilly... which means power makes a bit of difference too.
05:48<andythenorth>same for Road Hog
05:48<andythenorth>only by accident :P
05:48<andythenorth>capacity is double RL, but I didn’t double HP :P
05:51<Pikka>my capacities are tiny
05:54<Pikka>except passengers
05:56<Pikka>seems to work reasonably well
06:01<andythenorth>tiny = ?
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06:09<Pikka>15-25 for box trucks
06:10<Pikka>10-20 for flat/hopper/tanker/etc
06:11<Pikka>plenty for low-production industries or short transfers, but not challenging trains for main-game status ;)
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the drive-in stations work better for pickup/transfer stations if you use "full load"
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>provided you use non-articulated trucks
06:17<andythenorth>time for a Road Hog redesign
06:18<andythenorth>and another redraw :(
06:23<andythenorth>no road trains eh
06:24<andythenorth>if it looks like an articulated truck, but doesn’t bend
06:24<andythenorth>is that stupid?
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand what you mean
06:28<andythenorth>do I have to draw new sprites, when I remove all the articulated trucks?
06:28<andythenorth>the sprites look like RL articulated trucks, but will be a single unit in game
06:28<andythenorth>is that dumb?
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>that is stupid, yes.
06:30*andythenorth has designed Road Hog completely 100% wrong
06:30<andythenorth>it’s embarassing :P
06:30<andythenorth>the trams are single-unit, the trucks are articulated
06:31<andythenorth>should be the other way round
06:32<andythenorth>time to abandon it I think :D
06:32<andythenorth>that’s two RV sets I’ve given up on
06:33<andythenorth>Pikka: how many RV sets have you failed at? o_O
06:34<Pikka>well this one's called HOVS 75, which is approximately how many iterations the design has been through :)
06:35<peter1138>And everything will just use LV4 instead.
06:37<andythenorth>the one with the nudey pictures in it?
06:37<andythenorth>RVs suck ass
06:46<frosch123>for $360 you can get a complete custom trainset
06:46<Pikka>nope... for $360 you can get a new base set, house, industry, and vehicle newgrfs.
06:47<Pikka>the custom train set is a little bonus :)
06:47<frosch123>well, i guess it is supposed to say custom train, not custom train set
06:47<Pikka>"train set" as in locomotive and matching carriages
06:48<frosch123>anyway, don't put sponsors on the newspaper screen :) otherwise we get conflicts when trashing that picture :p
06:49<Pikka>mmhm :)
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06:57<andythenorth>how much does a decent RV set cost? o_O
06:57<frosch123>$360 per vehicle
06:57<andythenorth>I have spent weeks on Road Hog, and I could freelance my time for £300 / day :P
06:57<andythenorth>and give it to someone else
06:57<andythenorth>to make newgrfs :P
06:57<frosch123>limited to 32 vehicles
06:57<andythenorth>that’s less than a month of work for me
06:58*andythenorth can’t actually do freelance work, no time
06:59<Pikka>andy: I suppose an xxxtreeme level backer reward could be negotiable. :P
06:59<andythenorth>I could just wait for you to finish it
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07:01<Pikka>if pineapple rvs fits your requirements, sure. :)
07:01<andythenorth>‘requirements’ is a moot point with RVs
07:01<andythenorth>at this point, ‘FIRS support’ and ‘works’ would be enough
07:01<andythenorth>maybe OGFX+ RVs will do
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07:50<@Terkhen>it doesn't do anything fancy, but unless someone did crazy stuff with cargos it should still work :P
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08:48<Pikka>goodnight all :) round me up some more kickstarter backers while I sleep!
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09:23<andythenorth> /me is confused
09:24<andythenorth>which is the best type of roadstop?
09:24<glevans2>one with free food
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09:24<andythenorth>finally, a simple answer
09:25<glevans2>hey, I am a simple person
09:25<glevans2>one with free beer is better though
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09:33<andythenorth>is it just a meaningless question?
09:33<andythenorth>are both roadstop types crippled?
09:40<@Alberth>for some value of 'crippled', yes
09:40<@Alberth>not sure if that's a problem though. If there is one without flaws, what's the use of the other ones?
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09:44<andythenorth>it makes set design hard :)
09:45<andythenorth>I used articulated trucks in Road Hog on the basis that drive-through stops are preferable
09:45<andythenorth>but that seems like a mistake, because drive-in stops are also preferable
09:46<frosch123>are they?
09:47<@Alberth>any particular reason you want to have both?
09:47<frosch123>rv are for short distance high capacity
09:47<andythenorth>well, if trucks can only be single unit that changes the set design somewhat
09:47<frosch123>so, something that allows quick enter, load, leave, looks like the main point
09:47<andythenorth>no trailer trucks
09:47<frosch123>so, drive-in are kind of useless
09:48<frosch123>you should do it like pikka :)
09:48<frosch123>make a good set, don't care about game limitations wrt. overtaking
09:48<andythenorth>I could just wait for pikka
09:48<frosch123>just like pikka does not care about length of vehicles on diagonals
09:49<andythenorth>frosch123: do trucks like this look stupid if not articulated?
09:50<andythenorth>they’re 8/8 max afaict
09:50<frosch123>yes, esp those with a long front part
09:50<andythenorth>the ones longer than 8/8 would have to be changed
09:51<frosch123>did you decide for rv capacity yet?
09:51<andythenorth>30-40t for RVs
09:51<andythenorth>60-120t for trams
09:51<andythenorth>60t-120t for ‘off-highway’ RVs
09:51<andythenorth>20t for express vans
09:52<andythenorth>play-tested multiple games, works
09:52<andythenorth>(for trucks; trams are being changed now)
09:52<andythenorth>is there any way to empirically prove which roadstop is best?
09:53<frosch123>check how much cargo you can transfer from nidustry to rail station
09:53<frosch123>with as little space as possible
09:53<frosch123>(road station space)
09:53<andythenorth>are the optimum road layouts known?
09:54<andythenorth>to prevent blocking?
09:54*andythenorth has no idea about this stuff
09:54<frosch123>a T shape
09:54<andythenorth>for both types?
09:54<frosch123>road approaches drive-through orthogonal do driving direction
09:54*andythenorth looks in the wiki
09:54<frosch123>and then can take equal-cost turns left or right to enter road stop from both sides
09:54<andythenorth>if I play long enough, I’ll learn this stuff
09:55<andythenorth>it’s only been 10 years
09:56*andythenorth wonders if ‘not having to redraw the sprites, yet again’ is the best heuristic for the set design
09:56*andythenorth hates this set
09:57<andythenorth>RVs are the absolute prime example of non-interesting choices
10:01<frosch123> <- with that layout rv evenly distribute on both drive through lines
10:01<frosch123>which gives maximum throughput
10:02<frosch123>important is that the distance to both entry sides is the same
10:02<frosch123>and that the roadstop does not immediately start after the junction, so rv are less likely to block the junction
10:02<frosch123>it does not work for too many rows of roadstops though
10:03<frosch123>else the ones in the front are always nearer than those at the rear
10:03<frosch123>even with roadstop-in-use penalty
10:03<andythenorth>is there an equivalent for drive-in stops?
10:03<andythenorth>although tbh
10:03<andythenorth>redrawing the sprites is unappealing
10:04<frosch123>i don't think road layout makes any difference for drive-in
10:04<frosch123>there is no choice about drive-in
10:04<frosch123>rv can enter from one side only
10:04<andythenorth>pikka is hedging by offering trucks with and without trailers :P
10:04<frosch123>you cannot make them longer or similar
10:04<andythenorth>k ta
10:12*andythenorth unborks trams
10:13<andythenorth>they look better now
10:22*andythenorth considered chibi trams, but too much redrawing
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10:38<andythenorth>note to self
10:38<andythenorth>making ~symmetrical sprites is fun
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11:56<andythenorth>teaching the 5 year old about the redraw regions :P
12:04<andythenorth>is ‘repainted’ enough difference between old and new tram models?
12:05<andythenorth>with 10mph speed difference and 50% HP boost?
12:05<andythenorth>otherwise visually identical :P
12:09<@Alberth>if you don't have graphic variations of the same model, that should be sufficient, imho
12:10<andythenorth>helps :)
12:11*andythenorth trying to decide tram capacity
12:11<andythenorth>has to be cleanly divisible by 2 and 3
12:11<andythenorth>currently 90t
12:11<andythenorth>doesn’t really give trams any advantage over trucks though
12:11<andythenorth>two 40t trucks fit in the same number of tiles and are much faster
12:11*andythenorth wonders if 120t is too high
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12:14<@Alberth>90 96 102 108 114 120 to be precise
12:16<andythenorth>where are the nice neat 5s or 10s :D
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12:21<andythenorth>100t will do
12:21<andythenorth>bit boringly round though
12:23<frosch123>switch to imperial tons
12:25<andythenorth>HEQS is quite ‘realistic’ on capacities
12:25<andythenorth>but uses the imperial, long, or metric ton value from RL, according to how much capacity I wanted in game :P
12:26<andythenorth>110t looks ok
12:26<andythenorth>bit visually implausible
12:26<andythenorth>but eh
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12:59<andythenorth>there is a standard gauge tram tracks grf
13:00<andythenorth>I am not recommending it
13:01<@Alberth>ok :)
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13:50<Garfield222>hi, could you tell me how to make scenarion, with same group of buildings, like it this image
13:51<Garfield222>I mean , when I create a town, I can only expand it. I grows and create different kinds of buildings. No I dea how to grow city and keep same buildings.
13:51<Wolf01>patience, you need to demolish buildings you don't want and expand again
13:52<Garfield222>:-O ............. noooooooooooo
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13:54<Wolf01>or use newobjects if you find a building set... but they don't count as real houses
13:55<Garfield222>are the no cheats for this purpose ?
13:56<Garfield222>with delete/expand method it will take ages :-)
14:17<@Alberth>improve town building in the scenario editor?
14:20<Garfield222>what is "improve town building" ?
14:20<Garfield222>scenario is without any newgrf
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14:32<andythenorth>sorted the trams
14:33<andythenorth>16/8 long
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14:35<andythenorth>(this is impossible to constrain due to newgrf mix, but...)
14:36<andythenorth>is it annoying or not when a bunch of new vehicle models (across all transport types) are made available within a small number of years
14:37<andythenorth>with my sets, 1900-1910, 1930-1940, 1950-1960 seem to have a lot of model introductions
14:45<@Alberth>I typically click yes, and then don't care
14:45<@Alberth>tbh I'd like to have an "off" option
14:46<andythenorth>for exclusive previews?
14:47<andythenorth>or for all new vehicle models?
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15:27<@Alberth>exclusive preview cannot be disabled, new model news is off-ish
15:28<@Alberth>ie when I need a new engine, or need a renew, I'll have a look :)
15:34<andythenorth>so you don’t feel compelled to go replacing vehicles when a new one is released
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15:41<@Alberth>no, also not because reliability of new vehicle is too low
15:47*andythenorth had forgotten about breakdowns :)
15:47<andythenorth>perhaps I should set reliability values to something
15:47<andythenorth>nobody complains :P
15:49<@Alberth>otherwise you get whatever vehicle you copied from, I guess :)
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15:51*andythenorth also
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 19 00:00:15 2015