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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-07-22

---Logopened Wed Jul 22 00:00:19 2015
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02:47<andythenorth>o/
02:51<Supercheese>ahoy
02:59<andythenorth>@seen pikka
02:59<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 23 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <Pikka> flakey andynet?
03:06<Supercheese>@seen Pokka
03:06<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: Pokka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 23 hours, 25 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Pokka> tilt to you too
03:37<@planetmaker>moin
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06:15<Pikka>isn't it
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, definitely not.
06:15<andythenorth>probably
06:15<andythenorth>what is it?
06:15<Pikka>hard to say really
06:15<andythenorth>I can’t tell
06:16<andythenorth>but eh
06:16<andythenorth>I now have 87 vehicles in Road Hog
06:16<andythenorth>did I win yet?
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>no.
06:16<Pikka>depends. do you feel like a winner?
06:16<andythenorth>not yet
06:16<andythenorth>I’m hoping that I add what I think is right
06:16<Pikka>must need more then
06:17<andythenorth>with the result being 99
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>you win when you release.
06:17<andythenorth>sometimes you lose when release :(
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>tel aviv.
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>[that's a pun on "c'est la vie"]
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06:35<andythenorth>Pikka: tried to stop your thread getting derailed into needless shit, failed sorry :)
06:35<andythenorth>are you getting any traction from redditters?
06:35*andythenorth has no idea about reddit, it’s for young people
06:36<Pikka>a little, I'm not sure where most of the response is coming from though. Don't recognise the names.
06:36<Pikka>I'm getting some through from the other language communities, the czechs and russians, which is nice.
06:37<andythenorth>nice
06:37<andythenorth>not sure how to help promote it
06:37<andythenorth>forums are only OTTD place I really use
06:38<Pikka>I don't know. I put out a few feelers to sites which have done articles on (Open)TTD before, I might possibly get something out of that
06:38<@planetmaker>from our google+ account a line was posted as well
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07:08<andythenorth>lo Alberth
07:08<@Alberth>moin
07:18<andythenorth>eh
07:19<andythenorth>pax and mail tram progression
07:20<andythenorth>cargo trams are easy, 50t, 25mph-> 80t, 35mph, -> 110t, 45mph
07:20<andythenorth>all about the same length, or new one is shorter than old, so more trams fit in a tile
07:20<andythenorth>player wins every time
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>you don't want more than one tram per tile, it doesn't mix well with the drive through stops
07:21<andythenorth>pax trams get bigger and faster, but also double-deck -> multiple unit single deck
07:21<andythenorth>this is bad for capacity per tile :(
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>then don't make double decker trams
07:22<andythenorth>yeah
07:22<andythenorth>not very british though :)
07:23<@Alberth>non-britsh tram roster :)
07:23<andythenorth>the grain tram is norwegian :P
07:23<andythenorth>the dump tram is USA :P
07:23<andythenorth>the beer tram is made up
07:23<@Alberth>international tram roster
07:24<andythenorth>I should have matched rosters to FIRS economies or TTD climates
07:24<andythenorth>not countries :P
07:25<@Alberth>s/british/temperate/ and done :)
07:26<andythenorth>for Iron Horse, we also included Ireland and ‘pretend things that people made up but never got built really'
07:26<andythenorth>which helps :)
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07:33<andythenorth>double deck tram http://11even.net/2010/05/stockholm-city-autonomous-tram-by-vanessa-sattele-patrik-pettersson-fredrik-nilsson/kreativ/
07:35<__ln__>photoshopped
07:37<andythenorth>mockup
07:37<@Alberth>looks nice
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07:40<Pikka>goodnight all, uni in the morning :)
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07:41<andythenorth>looks steep for a tram http://www.railpage.org.au/tram/images/syd-d.jpg
07:43<@Alberth>you can see the gradient from that? :)
07:43<@Alberth>maybe it goes down-hill :)
07:43<andythenorth>I’m assuming the posts are vertical :)
07:47<andythenorth>chibi https://i0.wp.com/www.papercraftsquare.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Japanese-Train-and-Wagon-Papercrafts.jpg
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07:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: photos are unreliable for determining grades, as the lenses distort everything
07:51<andythenorth>yeah I know :)
07:51<andythenorth>the rocks on the right hand side suggest a rising grade though
07:52<andythenorth>amongst other things
07:52<andythenorth>there are probably plenty of examples online of visual illusions proving this is a fallacy
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07:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: even if you can say it's a rising grade, the steepness is still unreliable
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i've seen trams climb some pretty steep grades
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08:00<andythenorth>so Road Hog has double-deck buses (slow, high capacity)
08:00<andythenorth>and single-deck coaches, fast, high capacity
08:00<andythenorth>but coaches are not as high as the buses
08:01<andythenorth>but all are 8/8 or less
08:01<andythenorth>this doesn’t work for trams
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08:01*andythenorth puzzling
08:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: pax trams need to be very high capacity per tile yes?
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say 1 tram (1 tile) should be able to replace 3 single deck busses (1/2 tile)
08:03<andythenorth>yeah that’s fine
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>assuming double deck busses have 50% more capacity than single deck, then that would make those equal
08:04<andythenorth>trying to figure out if there are 2 types of tram or 1
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>one type should suffice
08:04<andythenorth>IRL isn’t actually a problem here
08:04<andythenorth>single-deck trams have high standing capacity, whereas double-deck don’t
08:04<andythenorth>so they net out about the same
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i said, right?
08:05<andythenorth>yeah
08:05<andythenorth>decision is whether to have double-deck trams (for variety and realism) or not
08:05<andythenorth>cost is that trams suddenly get much longer around 1960
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, trams did get much longer around 1960...
08:06<andythenorth>is that bad for gameplay?
08:06<andythenorth>auto-replace: block all stations
08:07<andythenorth>tedious?
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>it's a challenge, not necessarily terrible
08:07<andythenorth>current roster is mutable
08:07<andythenorth>steam tram (engine + double deck trailer), 2 units
08:08<andythenorth>2 models of single unit double deck
08:08<andythenorth>then 2 models of multiple unit single deck
08:10<andythenorth>hmm, the multiple unit single deck could be a new option from 1960
08:10<andythenorth>requiring stations to be adjusted
08:10<andythenorth>dunno, probably overthinking
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>GermanRV has a problem that in the 1990s, trams go from 1.2 tiles to 2 tiles, without properly increasing capacity. that actually is terrible
08:14<andythenorth>seems pointless :)
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>GermanRV has an inconsisty with mapping real length to game length
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>but i never quite could convince Uwe to fix it
08:16*andythenorth wonders whether to approach trams more radically
08:16<andythenorth>and keep a fixed length for all time
08:17<andythenorth>that is how Iron Horse does metro
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08:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you ever move mail in your games?
08:51<Hiddenfunstuff>isnt mail quite worthless and uesless?
08:51<Hiddenfunstuff>and usually low quantities so its not even worth putting trains for it
08:51<@planetmaker>I value the mail I get - except when it's bills :)
08:52<Hiddenfunstuff>aka once in year?
08:52<@planetmaker>:D
08:52<andythenorth>mail between cities is easy, just add mail wagons to a train
08:52<andythenorth>but within cities with trucks or trams?
08:52*andythenorth doesn’t bother
08:52<andythenorth>ever
08:52<Hiddenfunstuff>bill, bill, bill, complaint, bill, bill, speeding ticket, bill, bill, complaint, bill ...
08:53<Hiddenfunstuff>Also spam
08:59<V453000>I read add mail wagons to brain
09:00<andythenorth>yeah
09:00<Hiddenfunstuff>instructions unclear, mailed my brain
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i rarely do mail, mostly because overabundance of passengers takes all my attention
09:00<andythenorth>that’s what I wrote V453000
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>with a town production factor of 1/4 i might do mail properly
09:01<Hiddenfunstuff>well tbh.. I rarely even bother with passengers either
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, whether i do or do not use mail, doesn't mean you can alter your obligation to provide proper mail transport :p
09:04<andythenorth>more a question about whether you have valid opinion :)
09:04<andythenorth>I am unsure about sizing of mail (also express freight) trams
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>my opinion is that you should handle mail like any of your other cargo trams
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, in CETS, mail capacity is probably larger than default. but i really have not spent much time on it
09:05<andythenorth>the Road Hog trucks do 30 / 30 / 50 / 50 bags of mail
09:06<andythenorth>dunno if that works yet
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think the same ratio of 3 single-length trucks = 1 double-length tram should apply
09:06<andythenorth>who builds mail trams, really? o_O
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>but on the base value, i cannot give you any advise
09:06<andythenorth>people do that?
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, mail trams existed
09:07<andythenorth>irl I know
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>London also has a mail-underground ;)
09:07<andythenorth>but in game, there is usually no room for freight tram stops
09:07<andythenorth>in town
09:07<andythenorth>due to pax tram stops + queuing
09:11<@Alberth>with RV, I usually move the mail trucks to another street
09:12<andythenorth>trams are trickier I think, due to turning loops
09:12<andythenorth>might be wrong
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are certainly many valid approaches to a mail network in parallel to a passenger network in a town
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if you have a grain tram and a beer tram, there's no reason to not have a mail tram
09:14<V453000>everything is a beer tram in hiding
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>if all you have is beer goggles, everything is a beer.
09:15<V453000>yay
09:17<@Alberth>we'll just rename every cargo to "beer" :p
09:17<andythenorth>simples
09:17<andythenorth>accepts BEER
09:17<andythenorth>produces BEER
09:17<andythenorth>current pax tram generations + lengths: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7407/pax_trams.png
09:17<@Alberth>stockpile: inifnite, until V arrived
09:18<andythenorth>not convinced by the pax trams
09:18<@Alberth>bbl
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: well, it's not like you have full control over an industry set to achueve this
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>-u+i
09:20<V453000>:)
09:20<andythenorth>actually those pax trams are definitely suck
09:20<andythenorth>the length progression just looks dumb
09:21<V453000>I like it
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm somewhat indifferent
09:21<andythenorth>no logic :P
09:22<V453000>fuck logic
09:22<V453000>go for beer solution
09:23<andythenorth>beer solution is all one size
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>beer is certainly not all one size. if you order one beer in cologne, you get 0,2l. if you order one beer in munich, you get 1l
09:27<andythenorth>well when you’ve tried all the beers, tell me how to fix pax and mail trams
09:27<andythenorth>the cargo trams are now satisfactory, thanks to help from [random irc people]
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>you never tried all the beers
09:28<andythenorth>the pax and freight RVs are also satisfactory, for some value of satisfactory
09:28<V453000>xd
09:28<andythenorth>factoring in overtaking, station type etc :P
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09:41<V453000>doing some serious BRIX progress
09:41<V453000>tracks being done now
09:42<andythenorth>:)
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09:47*andythenorth wonders why openttd doesn’t persist settings
09:47<andythenorth>it’s a persistent irritation
09:48<andythenorth>I have changed the build-while-paused settings maybe a hundred times now
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10:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's not openttd, it's you.
10:01<andythenorth>is there a save button?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>either you change settings from within the game, which doesn't persist on the next game you start
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>or your openttd.cfg file (or the directory) is write protected
10:02<andythenorth>it’s the former
10:02<andythenorth>100% explains it
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>change it on the main menu, and it should persist
10:02*andythenorth tests
10:03<andythenorth>solved
10:03<andythenorth>I have openttd open all the time
10:04<andythenorth>but I never leave it on the main menu, due to sound effects
10:04<andythenorth>I leave it in a game, then use ‘newgame’ in console
10:04<andythenorth>thus no persisting of settings
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>you can use the "settings_newgame" [or similar] console command
10:05<andythenorth>I did patch out the main menu sound effects once
10:05<andythenorth>but patches die :P
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>just replace opntitle.dat
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>or delete it
10:11<andythenorth>ta
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10:55<txtsd>hello
10:55<txtsd>how can I make a 'very flat' world without 50% of it being water?
10:55<txtsd>I set sea level to 1, but the map still generates with 50% water
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>make a heightmap in your favourite image processing program
10:57-!-qwebirc56954 [~oftc-webi@221.3.134.142] has joined #openttd
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>if you feel you have trouble coming up with suitible random shapes, try making a non-flat map, export it as heightmap, scale down the colours in the heightmap, and import that heightmap
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11:00<txtsd>That sounds like a lot of work for a one-click feature
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11:01<Eddi|zuHause>also, turn off variety distribution
11:01<txtsd>oh I haven't tried fiddling with that option. Let me try it and get back.
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>it runs an extra flattening step over the map, which might be too much for a map that already is flat
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11:04<txtsd>ok turning it off got me the kind of map I want
11:04<txtsd>thanks :D
11:05<txtsd>I've been watching OpenTTD lets play videos all day. I read about the game in a thread on the archlinux forums earlier today. I'm ready to play my own game now!
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11:18<txtsd>Are there prerequisites for getting Oil Rigs on the map? I haven't seen a single one on the temperate maps I've been generating
11:18<txtsd>The wiki doesn't mention anything special
11:19<@Alberth>after 1960, temperate climate
11:19<@Alberth>hmm, generating, not sure if they appear then
11:20<txtsd>So they'll just appear as I play once I hit 1960?
11:20<@Alberth>generating and regular industry spawning during play are different things
11:20<@Alberth>it should happen gradually, but yep
11:20<txtsd>Oh I see
11:21<@Alberth>there is probably also the requirement of having some water :p
11:21<@Alberth>default even demands water near the edge
11:21<txtsd>I have water on all edges of my maps
11:22<@Alberth>and you need industry spawaning, ie no newgrfs that block industry creation or closure (to a lesser extent)
11:23<@Alberth>but if you play default, that should be fine
11:23<txtsd>Gotcha. I only have Japanese town and city names for newgrfs. I don't want to stray too much.
11:24<@Alberth>you could check out the opengfx+ newgrfs, they are in the spirit of default game play, but just a little nicer
11:24<@Alberth>opengfx+industries however fails with toyland climate :(
11:24<txtsd>Is it better than zbase?
11:24<txtsd>zbase looks good enough for me
11:25<@Alberth>they only change behaviour, no need graphics (except opengfx+landscape I think)
11:26<@Alberth>zbase looks too flat and unfinished for me
11:26<@Alberth>so I play opengfx or even original base set
11:26<@Alberth>but I guess it's just what you're used to :)
11:27<txtsd>Ok I'll download and try them out. Thanks for the suggestion!
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12:06<Eddi|zuHause>whoever's responsible for the changelog, i think it should include all previous releases of a major version (so 1.5.1 changelog includes all changes for 1.5.0 as well)
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12:10<frosch123>just use the wiki
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>not what i meant...
12:12<andythenorth>hurgh
12:12<andythenorth>silly tramses
12:12<andythenorth>IRL, trams used to sometimes run in convoys
12:12<andythenorth>not connected, but closely following :P
12:13*andythenorth considers how that would look in the buy menu: “Tram Convoy"
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12:49<andythenorth>this looks better for length progression https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7408/pax_trams_2.png
12:49<andythenorth>probably bad for gameplay?
12:50<andythenorth>biggest tram is 19/8 long
12:50<andythenorth>shortest is 10/8
12:53<Supercheese>looks better for lengths yeah
12:53<Supercheese>the first longer then shorter progression was odd
12:54<andythenorth>agreed
12:54<andythenorth>if we want double deck trams, they can be separate
12:54<andythenorth>hmm, the first steam one is double deck, but anyway :P
12:55<andythenorth>I’ll wait for Eddi’s comments on lengths
12:55<andythenorth>I ran a few tests last week, 18/8 seems to be an optimum length for station performance, but it wasn’t very scientific
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12:59<@Alberth>pretty much all software runs by testing :p
13:02<andythenorth>if it was scientific, I might have a hypothesis, instead of vague empiricism :P
13:05<andythenorth>anyway, tramz :P
13:05<andythenorth>are getting more done
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13:07<@Alberth>the scientific approach takes too long, you'd have to compare each length with every other length
13:07<andythenorth>I used a subset :P
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13:07<andythenorth>and no combinations of different lengths
13:08<andythenorth>it was a monoculture of lengths
13:08<@Alberth>that can be good, see eg nuts :)
13:09<V453000>wat
13:09<V453000>ah andy with his length mess
13:09<andythenorth>ideally all vehicles would be 8/8
13:09<V453000>I would just make a total length the same for all vehicles, and make them consist of various lengths of articulated things
13:10<V453000>makes it look fun and work fine
13:10<andythenorth>shall I do that for the pax tramz?
13:10<andythenorth>I wouldn’t mind
13:10<andythenorth>makes station building easy throughout the game
13:11<V453000>idk :)
13:11<V453000>for RVs I think various lengths are kind of nice
13:11<V453000>I suppose it is good to keep them in half-tile multiplications, but it is fun to choose a longer/shorter vehicle
13:12<andythenorth>contradicting your previous statement :P
13:12<V453000>RVs though
13:12<V453000>thought you mean trains
13:12<andythenorth>nah
13:12<andythenorth>tramzz
13:12<V453000>if trains have odd lengths, it is bad because they combine one train
13:12<V453000>RVs are one vehicle as a whole, so the length of the unit nicely matters
13:13<andythenorth>length affects station performance…
13:13<V453000>of course it kind of applies to trains too but RVs can autoreplace from long to short and back without any losses etc
13:13<V453000>sure, but also road performance
13:13<V453000>road/tramtrack :)
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13:13<V453000>more density = more road capacity, same as stations
13:14<andythenorth>I don’t like that long tram
13:14<V453000>k then :)
13:16<andythenorth>I cba to test them against each other though
13:16<andythenorth>also I haven’t used them in a game :P
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13:18<V453000>WHY CARE ABOUT A GAME! :D
13:21*andythenorth has no answer
13:21<andythenorth>I will have to think about it :(
13:25<andythenorth>tell me a number
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13:34<@Alberth>4
13:35<andythenorth>now I have to decide what that is for
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13:35<andythenorth>really small mail trams?
13:36<@Alberth>that works with trains, normally, you never need many mail wagons with passenger trains
13:37<andythenorth>4 bags of mail? o_O
13:38*andythenorth actually just uses Eddi’s suggestion :)
13:38<andythenorth>easier
13:38<@Alberth>sounds like a fair interpretation of 4 :)
13:38<andythenorth>you won’t be wanting trams in small towns :P
13:39<@Alberth>I don't want trams unless BB asks me to :p
13:40<@Alberth>trams are nice for short industrial cargo transport though
13:40<V453000>haha
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13:41<@Alberth>should we have goals like "build 5 trams"? :p
13:41<@Alberth>sounds more like "achievement unlocked!"
13:42<andythenorth>:)
13:42<andythenorth>might be interesting to vary the cargo goals
13:42<andythenorth>dunno
13:42<andythenorth>worried about overloading BB
13:42<andythenorth>but
13:43<andythenorth>“construct an industry supplying [cargo]”
13:43<andythenorth>“supply x tonnes every month to town z”
13:43<@Alberth>SV ?
13:43<andythenorth>“provide a ferry service"
13:43<andythenorth>dunno
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14:02<Supercheese>any actual hogs in Road Hog yet?
14:03<andythenorth>nah :)
14:04<andythenorth>eh, if the biggest trams can’t keep stations clear in a 10k popn. city
14:04<andythenorth>there’s no point?
14:04<@Alberth>10k?
14:05<@Alberth>I wouldn't try that with trams :p
14:05<Supercheese>needs more
14:05<andythenorth>what else would you do without station walking?
14:05<Supercheese>like subways :P
14:05<@Alberth>regular train station
14:05<Supercheese>or metro or whatever you have it
14:05<@Alberth>or don't care about waiting pax
14:08<andythenorth>Iron Horse metro does 400 pax in 1 tile length @ 65mph
14:08<andythenorth>the biggest Road Hog tram does 180 pax in 1.2 tile length @65 mph
14:08*andythenorth considers rebalancing
14:09<@Alberth>why have hog trams at all, if they are in iron horse?
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>why is setting double size gui disabled?
14:13<andythenorth>o_O
14:13<andythenorth>works for me :|
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>apparently it's tied to the max zoom level
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14:31<peter1138>Maximum zoom affects maximum zoom, how odd.
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, it is odd, because the two settings are in totally unrelated places
14:36*andythenorth wishes there was a way to space out trams
14:36<peter1138>Someone said the place where it is was going to go away, so I left it.
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>the last time i spaced out trams, said way didn't even exist yet
14:38<andythenorth>I tried timetables once, but they don’t do anything
14:39<peter1138>They're useful to have all your vehicles bunched up together while being flagged as late...
14:39<andythenorth>yeah that’s what happened
14:39<andythenorth>and also to spend a lot of time clicking stuff
14:39<andythenorth>and wonder why the interface gives no clues
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>run timetable filling, reduce wait time at intermediate stations, increase wait time at end stations, make sure overtaking is possible at some place, and then use the vehicle spacing hidden feature
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>overtaking preferably at those end stations
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>even without setting all the start dates manually, that is still a tedious task
14:41<andythenorth>anyway 240 pax trams that fit in 1.5 tiles
14:42<andythenorth>seems to work for this big city
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds reasonable
14:48<andythenorth>I’m clearing 2/3 of the pax with no blocking
14:48<andythenorth>city keeps growing though :P
14:48<andythenorth>inconvenient
15:00<andythenorth>40 pax per tram makes a huge difference to station clearance
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15:05<@Alberth>at 240 trams, sounds likely:)
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15:21<Wolf01>o/
15:24<@Alberth>o/
15:30<andythenorth>hmm
15:30<andythenorth>so the terrain generation fixes now actuall make nice maps :D
15:30<andythenorth>actually *
15:30<peter1138>s/fixes/revert/
15:30<V453000>wa? (:
15:31<V453000>nice
15:31<andythenorth>mountainous isn’t
15:31<andythenorth>but we can’t have everything :)
15:31<V453000>amazing stuff
15:31<andythenorth>alpinist seems to work
15:31<andythenorth>mountainous is a synonym for ‘flat'
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16:19<andythenorth>trams with heavy load :P http://villamosok.hu/nza/7052mosz.jpg
16:19<andythenorth>Budapest
16:24<@Alberth>happens every now and then :p
16:24<@Alberth>gn
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19:03<Wolf01>'night
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20:00<acklayy>Hey
20:00<acklayy>Anyone here?
20:01<acklayy>I have a general question, me and my buddy want to Play Together vs each other... but we can never find each other when trying to make a mulitplayer game?
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 23 00:00:20 2015