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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-08-02

---Logopened Sun Aug 02 00:00:33 2015
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04:33<Wolf01>hi hi
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05:44<fjb>Moin
05:45<frosch123>hola
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05:46<fjb>Quak frosch123
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07:00<argoneus>hm
07:01<argoneus>I just realized
07:01<argoneus>that I don't need to build super optimized networks
07:01<argoneus>I just make networks that work and when they choke I rebuild parts of it
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07:11<peter1138>don't tell V
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07:12<argoneus>why
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08:01<argoneus>so for pax
08:01<argoneus>I want a line of X stations where trains go back and forth
08:01<argoneus>and have multiple lines like that?
08:01<argoneus>and a bus network in the city or so
08:01<argoneus>so like a network of multi-station lines
08:02<argoneus>or do I want to have like A->B->C->D->A
08:02<@Alberth>it's hard to know what your mind wants :)
08:03<@Alberth>in the latter case, I'd also add A->D->C->B->A trains
08:04<argoneus>im just wondering how to make a proper pax network
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08:09<@Alberth>both seem very reasonable solutions to me
08:10<argoneus>well
08:10<argoneus>when I have A B C D A
08:10<argoneus>what does the train do when it reaches D
08:10<argoneus>._.
08:10<argoneus>it should be a circle
08:10<@Alberth>I read that as a cycle
08:11<argoneus>but adding new stations to the cycle sounds painful
08:11<@Alberth>which implies A and D should be somewhat close-ish to each other
08:11<argoneus>in which case
08:11<argoneus>i dont add stations, i make new cycles
08:11<argoneus>does that sound valid
08:12<@Alberth>I think you need not too large cycles, more cycles helps there too
08:12<argoneus>i can also chain cycles
08:12<argoneus>so from a O cycle
08:12<argoneus>I can make a 8
08:12<argoneus>if you understand?
08:12<@Alberth>if you have a string of small villages, then back and forth between A and D seems like the only solution to me
08:13<argoneus>back and forth or a cycle?
08:13<@Alberth>make two independent cycles? seems nice
08:13<@Alberth>if you have A at one end, and D at the other end, cycles don't seem useful to me
08:14<argoneus>hmm
08:14<argoneus>but then the train has to go all the way back
08:14<argoneus>and mirrored orders are a pain
08:14<@Alberth>yeah, so back and forth between A and D would work best
08:15<argoneus>what about B C?
08:15<argoneus>or does my train do A B C D C B A
08:15<@Alberth>nah, just make the train stop at every station, and let it run between A and D
08:15<argoneus>is there an easy way to do that without mirroring orders manually?
08:16<@Alberth>yep, go to A, go to D (disable non-stop)
08:16<argoneus>hmm
08:16<@Alberth>make sure the train cannot avoid B and C
08:16<argoneus>will cargodist figure it out?
08:16<argoneus>oh wait
08:16<@Alberth>afaik it does/should
08:16<argoneus>it will make implicit orders
08:16<argoneus>so it should
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>as long as it does not chaotically avoid B and C
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. by going to depot
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>so better make an explicit depot order
08:21<argoneus>wouldn't a cycle be better though
08:22<@Alberth>just try both, and compare?
08:22<argoneus>if I have A-B-C-D-C-B-A, then I will need to manage train separation a lot
08:22<argoneus>because when a train is in D, A will be full of pax
08:22<argoneus>and timetabling trains seems like a pain
08:23<@Alberth>simplest form of timetabling is to make a big gap in your track blocks
08:23<@Alberth>next train won't enter the block after the previous has left
08:23<argoneus>oh
08:23<argoneus>so separate signals?
08:23<argoneus>a lot
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08:23<@Alberth>so they are always "big gap length" apart from each other
08:23<@Alberth>no, a lot of no signals
08:24<@Alberth>one straight track of 20-30-40 tiles wtihout signals
08:24<argoneus>that's problematic though
08:24<argoneus>because the train will be waiting in the gap
08:24<argoneus>while it could still be loading people
08:24<@Alberth>if it's waiting, it's early
08:25<@Alberth>you have any doubt that your train is not going to be full for 100% all the time?? :)
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: if the signal method is too crude for you, you can always switch to timetabling
08:27<argoneus>well
08:27<argoneus>I guess you're right
08:27<argoneus>I should get a pax game save
08:27<argoneus>and check things out
08:28<@Alberth>try it, and adapt to improve :)
08:28<@Alberth>testing whether your idea actually works is half the fun :)
08:29<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> wouldn't a cycle be better though <- no, because circles are terrible for cargodist, and you still need to worry about separation
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>other people's savegames are usually terrible
08:31<argoneus>i could look at coop savegames
08:31<argoneus>but with that sort of planning it won't help me much on a small scale
08:32<@Alberth>luckily, everybody thinks other people cannot make a train network :p
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>coop savegames are especially terrible :p
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>"i want to learn woodworking" ... "here take a look at this industrial scale machine"
08:36<@Alberth>true tycoons always do things at grand scale :D
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08:54<Audiopulse>Hi there
08:57<argoneus>hi
08:59<Audiopulse>sad_dude - thanks for the changes. My first impression is they really do well with the whole package.
09:00<Audiopulse>From what ive seen the trams are even in good balance with the trucks
09:09<Audiopulse>There is something else that crossed my mind, that might beg for a try:
09:11<Audiopulse>I kind of like how the game rewards you with way higher outputs when you deliver all the required resources instead of just one. In the past I just slammed factories with, lets say all coal I could find but cared less about glass, gravel etc.
09:13<Audiopulse>It kind of actually makes you feel like you really own the factory as you have to tend to it nicely.
09:15<Audiopulse>Now, what if every factory produced a little bit even with no supplies at all (Only some do atm) but to further boost your output, you would have to fund supplying factories yourself? Primary resources like forests, Farms, Fishing-grounds etc. would still be there from the start, of course.
09:16<Audiopulse>The idea behind that would be you would actively work on your chain and make sure you find a good place to settle with amp supplies in the first place.
09:18<Audiopulse>Now ... on the hind-sight it might just stretch out the gameplay too much and make it all too boring, but it may be worth a try.
09:31<Audiopulse>Prices for new industries might have to be readjusted as well. I dont know if thats something you can do.
09:40<@Alberth>yes, use a basecost modification newgrf
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09:50<Eddi|zuHause>if you make a new industry set anyway, you can set the prices for each industry individually
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10:00<argoneus>when you have a timetabled bus service
10:01<argoneus>and you want to add another station
10:01<argoneus>should you send all buses to depot and then autofill again or just autofill?
10:01<argoneus>im wondering how to do this without breaking everyting
10:01<argoneus>thing*
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>i would just estimate the time and put it in manually
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>but you have to put new vehicles into the gap and/or redistribute the start times anyway, so the whole thing gets disrupted either way
10:07<argoneus>hmm
10:16<argoneus>is there a hotkey to change time in timetable?
10:20<Audiopulse>Not true... keep CTRL pressed while you click "Starting Date" and it automatically accounts for the number of vehicles
10:21<Audiopulse>its been a while since i got myself into timetables, but i just CTRL-pressed Autofill, let it do its magic and then CTRL-press Start-date
10:22<Audiopulse>Worked like a charm back in 1.4 - havent really used it since then.
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>in theory, yes. but there may be ways how the separation puts dates way into the future and vehicles just keep clogging the start station
10:31<Audiopulse>No sucht thing as a foolproof mechanic in TTD, huh? :D
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10:48<argoneus>hm
10:48<argoneus>timetabling trains with implicit orders is a pain
10:49<argoneus>i cant figure out how to separate passenger trains going through several stations
10:49<argoneus>someone here told me to make very sparse signals
10:49<argoneus>but that seems kinda awkward
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10:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could also make the orders explicit
11:12<Eddi|zuHause> <Audiopulse> No sucht thing as a foolproof mechanic in TTD, huh? :D <-- if you make something foolproof, someone invents a bigger fool
11:13<argoneus>I wish there was an easy way to mirror orders
11:13<argoneus>like A->B->C->D->C->B->A
11:13<argoneus>:(
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes. make one
11:14<Audiopulse>True, eddi.
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12:03<argoneus>timetabling is still magic
12:03<argoneus>is there an easy way to see how long it takes a vehicle to load/unload everything?
12:03<argoneus>worst case
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12:11<@Alberth>worst case is easy, that's "inifinite"
12:11<argoneus>well
12:11<argoneus>uh
12:11<argoneus>can't argue with that
12:12<@Alberth>I tend to use a few hundred ticks, together with the slack, it works out nicely, in general
12:24<Sylf>some slow loading train takes 1000+ ticks, especially passenger/main trains that do both unloading and loading at a same station
12:27<Wolf01>why does the postgres upgrade guide tells one to do stuff which does not even exists in the face of the planet?
12:28<peter1138>Like what?
12:29<Wolf01>like running a shell with "postgres" user
12:29<peter1138>sudo -u postgres -s
12:29<Wolf01>I don't have any postgres user :|
12:29<peter1138>then you don't have postgres
12:29<Wolf01>it works like a charm
12:29<peter1138>running as root or something horrible?
12:31<Wolf01>no, just the plain basic install, I didn't even touch the pg_hba.conf as I only need to run it locally
12:31<peter1138>plain basic install makes a postgres user on all my systems
12:33<Wolf01>if it needs to configure some stuff, the installer must configure that stuff, the installer let me just chose a password to connect to the server engine, but I don't have any system user
12:33<peter1138>are you doing something horrible like running it on windows then?
12:33<Wolf01>yeah
12:33<peter1138>though even then i think it made a user
12:33<peter1138>but yeah, nobody uses that
12:33<Wolf01>no, it doesn't
12:34<peter1138>everyone's all in love with sql server express on windows
12:34<peter1138>all my postgreses are on debian of course
12:34<Wolf01>last time I dumped all the databases and imported in the new engine, this time I wanted to try with pg_upgrade
12:39<peter1138>dump is what i do
12:39<Wolf01>it's what I'm doing that now too
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12:59<peter1138>yeah, that's the surefire way of not losing everything
12:59<peter1138>hmm, maybe i should consolidate my databases
12:59<argoneus>argh
13:00<argoneus>timetabling is so tedious and boring
13:00<peter1138>i tend to just deploy a container for somethig and include its own postgres
13:00<argoneus>after timetabling one big city I don't feel like doing passengers anymore
13:00<peter1138>if i use a central server it'll be much easier to set up a replication slave, eg
13:03<Wolf01>ok, restored all
13:06<Wolf01>tomorrow I could start my new wonderful job as a freelance
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27358 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2015-08-02 19:45:14 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 25 changes by juanjo
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14:14<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> is there an easy way to see how long it takes a vehicle to load/unload everything? <-- each loading step is 40 ticks for trains and road vehicles (planes and ships are shorter), and while the size of the loading step is not listed in the buy menu, it's fairly easy to figure out. so capacity/(loading steps)*2*40 in ticks, or /74 for days
14:17<argoneus>.).
14:17<argoneus>._. *
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>default loading step is 5 pieces of cargo, btw
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>but NewGRFs can freely change that
14:24<frosch123>"Factorio's railway system works basically exactly the block signals in Open Traffic Tycoon Deluxe" <- unsubbed :p
14:25<frosch123>"If you ever played that game you will find some elements also in Factorio. If not, you can learn from their documentation. " <- aw, should have copied the next sentence as well :)
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like someone who played each game for half an hour
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>like journalists making an interview with you and then spelling your name wrong
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause>also, shortening the sentences you made and thereby twisting the point you were trying to make
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17:10<Audiopulse_>"Your computer is too slow to keep up with the server"
17:10<Audiopulse_>Haha... did not expect that from a game as TT :D
17:11<Taede>you'd be surprised how much a modern cpu can struggle
17:11<FLHerne>Audiopulse_: OTTD can be a lot more resource-consuming than it looks
17:12<ST2>[21:56:59] *** Audiopulse quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) <<-- probably same dc that caused you ping timout here ^^
17:12<ST2>and irc is lot lesser consummer that OpenTTD ^^
17:12<Audiopulse_>Yeah, i saw it :9
17:12<FLHerne>Audiopulse_: Remember that current maps can be 250x bigger than those in the original game
17:13<FLHerne>Tens of times more vehicles
17:13<Audiopulse_>yes yes - plus im playing on a Road-heavy server
17:13<Audiopulse_>The culprit is probably the rendering im doing at the side.
17:14<ST2>I guess it's all about: what happens ingame <-> what client gets/shows
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17:42<Wolf01>'night
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21:23<supermop>hello
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 03 00:00:35 2015