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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-08-14

---Logopened Fri Aug 14 00:00:03 2015
00:10-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
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00:21<Sylf>Playing is optional on any openttd servers
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00:36<Flygon>Literally
00:36<Flygon>All have guest viewing positions
00:37<Flygon>I'm just waiting for the year 2030 where we'll have fully flexible underground subways and viaducts
00:37<Flygon>65k*65k maps w/Civ II style horizontal rollover
00:37<Flygon>And people doing literal world maps and... something something :B
00:37<Flygon>WE MUST MAKE OTTD START AT 1AD!
00:38<Flygon>AND WE MUST IMPLEMENT INTERNATIONAL WAR AS A FEATURE
00:38<Sylf>Invest in invention of wheel?
00:38<Flygon>Pssh
00:39<Flygon>Nobody researches The Wheel
00:39<Flygon>Everyone gets it from Great Library!
00:39<Flygon>And also we must implement Mad Max-style future as a feature
00:40<Flygon>OPENTTD MUST HAVE TRANSPORT WARS
00:40*Flygon resumes animation he's been procrastinating heavily on
00:40<Flygon>8 hours to finish colouring 32 frames
00:40<Flygon>I AM NOT INTELLIGENT
00:41<Flygon>Won't even get shading done :(
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00:42<Flygon>I mean
00:42<Flygon>It's EASY
00:42<Flygon>It's just menial work
00:42<Flygon>EVERYTHING'S already animated...
00:42<Flygon>Except the eyes
00:42<Flygon>I'm screwed
00:50<Supercheese>Well, bon chance
00:50<Supercheese>or is it bonne chance
00:50<Supercheese>I only ever hear it said
00:50<Flygon>What does it mean?
00:50<Flygon>And, yeah
00:50<Supercheese>should be French for Good Luck
00:51<Flygon>I'm utterly fucked. The eyes have an undefined period where I might need to reanimate a few frames...
00:51<Flygon>By 11:30AM Saturday... it's 2:51PM Friday now
00:51<Flygon>Thanks, cheese x.x
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00:52<Flygon>Now to hope I don't hit the secondary issue
00:52<Flygon>RAM.
00:52<Flygon>Long story short: Paint Tool SAI
00:52<Flygon>And 32-bit app RAM limit...
00:55<Flygon>Urgh...
00:55<Flygon>Worst to worst
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC677EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit []
00:56<Flygon>It's pushed back to Saturday
00:56<Flygon>Er, Sunday
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00:56<Supercheese>Isn't there some patch to enable extended memory usage for 32-bit applications?
00:56<Supercheese>I recall hitting the limit in Civilization IV and patching it to get more RAM available...
00:57<Flygon>Dunno
00:57<Flygon>I think that just extends to 4GB
00:58<Flygon>Not the 12GB available my app needs
00:58<Supercheese>hmm yeah it does
00:59<Supercheese>just 4 gigs
00:59<Flygon>Thank you, regardless :#
00:59<Flygon>:3*
00:59<Flygon>I'll just need to use layers efficiently and pray a lot x3
01:00<Flygon>Shame I gotta sleep by 2AM...
01:00<Flygon>I'd work til 4AM fixing it otherwise :B
01:06<Flygon>Oh nuts... not just the eyes I may needa redo too
01:06<Flygon>The secondary body in this thing too...
01:06<Flygon>This is what you get for pushing things off to last minute xP
01:07<Supercheese>I know whatcha mean, I was the university champion procrastinator :P
01:08<Flygon>:D
01:08<Flygon>My excuse is
01:08<Flygon>Is that I was busy the rest of the week xP
01:08<Supercheese>although the championship games kept getting delayed... and delayed... ;)
01:09<Flygon>Worst to worst...
01:09<Flygon>I publish it as a WIP, using the lack of shading as an excuse
01:10<Flygon>Then figure out how to draw animated shading in Paint Tool SAI because holy CRAP this software is not meant for animation
01:10<Flygon>Annnnd
01:10<Flygon>I am now getting RAM full errors
01:10<Flygon>:|
01:14<Flygon>Whelp
01:14<Flygon>I'm boned.
01:14*Flygon starts trying to split the one .sai file into four .sai files with 8 frames each >_>"
01:16*Supercheese hasn't ever used Paint Tool SAI
01:22<Flygon>And now I'm screwed because I can't cut-paste folders
01:22<Flygon>Hahaha...
01:22<Flygon>I'll sort this out when I'm done picking people up from the railway station xP
01:22<Flygon>Thankfully, most of the folders
01:22<Flygon>Just have one layer inside (the ink layer)
01:24<Ether_Man>Oh. Just came across an interesting concept. http://verplant.org/openttd/images/station_ultra_high_performance.png shows trains being forced to enter a depo, but will trains actually do service when routed like that or will they just route through it as if just a small turnabout?
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01:55<@Alberth>they avoid depots if possible
01:56<@Alberth>doesn't look very high speed to me
01:57<@Alberth>too many very small corners
01:57<@Alberth>*tight
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02:07<Ether_Man>Alberth, they avoid if possible yes, but if it routes through them? As in delete the straight track going past them. Will they enter and get serviced or?
02:07<@Alberth>I think so yeah
02:08<@Alberth>it's much easier just to order them to a depot :)
02:10<Ether_Man>Possibly. But it's an interesting concept :)
02:14<Ether_Man>Hmm... I think I'm kind of abusing the station rating system with my current setup... Gotten a coal mine up to 800 production now in a very short timespan... It's at a constant 100% with the "harsh" setting in FIRS. Put the train station just outside the range of the mine, and then 4 road cargo depots within range of the mine, and 4 for the train station... And then lots and lots of coal trucks... There's always a truck loading and unloading.. (well, usually
02:14<Ether_Man> more than one). So cargo gets away from the coal mine instantly, always, without having a train sitting and waiting :)
02:19<@Alberth>isn't it much easier to set the rating to 100% in firs?
02:21<Ether_Man>It is but that's cheating. I just wanted to try it out if it worked, and it works a bit too good even :)
02:24<@Alberth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Servicing#Forced_servicing_.28trains_only.29
02:25<@Alberth>oh, no worries, soon the industry produces more than you can handle with RVs :)
02:29<Ether_Man>Mm. It seems to max out at around 800. The transported drops to ~70% at that point and then sits quite stable at that production. Although it gives me new ideas for how to create feeder lines with trains. I've been trying to avoid transfers since I misunderstood the timer, but feeder networks feeding to larger and larger trunks seems to be a much better alternative to get departures as often as possible
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02:48<@Alberth>70% is pretty normal
02:48<Ether_Man>Possibly. 800 coal/month isnt a normal production for ME though :)
02:49<@Alberth>oh, firs, doesn't change production unless you give it supplies
02:50<@Alberth>unless you play a beta version, where there is more diversity, I tihnk
02:50<Ether_Man>Firs basic. It doesnt use that system where almost everything needs other things :)
02:51<@Alberth>basic is lot more manageable :)
02:51-!-DDR [~David@S0106001f16aa47bc.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:52<@Alberth>but you don't need to build entire cycles in firs
02:52<Ether_Man>Yea I tried a game of the full... Could not find anything to actually work with other than passengers...
02:52<@Alberth>firs is big, it takes ages to find a matching pair
02:52<Ether_Man>The only origin production I could find... Was fishing. But no boats that could transport fishes so that was useless >_<
02:53<@Alberth>I played with busybee giving me assignment to do. It gives foces
02:53<@Alberth>ha, yep, you need squid (fish2) as well
02:54<@Alberth>and a newgrf trainset, I hope you had that, or indeed, very little that you can transport
02:55<@Alberth>and if you like RVs, an RV set too, eg Road Hog
02:55<Ether_Man>Nope. Just tried with firs. Readme didnt say I needed anyhting else >_<
02:55<@Alberth>I don't believe that
02:57<@Alberth>Furthermore you need a vehicle set that supports the FIRS cargos. <-- line 13 :)
02:58<Ether_Man>The sentence right next to it says that "Any vehicle
02:58<Ether_Man>set with proper Cargo Classes support should do that by default." I would assume that the default vehicles do that since they say it like that
02:59<Ether_Man>The sentence after that says that it's not all that can be transported, but that virtually nothing is... Well that's quite different from what it sounds like there
03:00<@Alberth>stuff ages, also the author knows all this, it's hard to explain to someone who has a different view
03:00<@Alberth>but if you can phrase it better, please do
03:01<Ether_Man>The entire section?
03:01<V453000>yo
03:01<@Alberth>oy V
03:02<@Alberth>If the entire section is best to replace in your view, sure
03:02<@Alberth>all yetis awake and working hard?
03:04<Supercheese>do yetis get paid double for overtime?
03:05<Ether_Man>Well, just dropping the sentence I quoted, and change "all" to "a number of" would be a lot clearer. Referencing Cargo Classes is great information to other devs that knows what those are and what implements them, but it's just confusing information from a user perspective, especially when combined with like saying any proper set and referncing default.
03:08<@Alberth>yeah, it intends to refer to behavior and not to a set, but I see that can lead to confusion
03:09<@Alberth>@logs
03:09<@DorpsGek>Alberth: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
03:11<@Alberth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7742 made an issue about it
03:15<Ether_Man>Heh... Just found http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/7/74/Psg193_BRIDGES.png what an amazing mess :)
03:17<V453000>(.
03:19<@Alberth>and it actually works :)
03:19<Ether_Man>I'm sure it does. The question is. What does it DO? :)
03:20<@Alberth>Fail safe system, obviously
03:22<Ether_Man>Obviously, right :)
03:26<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_191_-_200#gameid_193 is the game itself so you can watch it in action
03:27<@Alberth>it will just increase amazement though :)
03:36<Ether_Man>Cant get ottdc stuff to work :/
03:36<Supercheese>probably need the ottdcoop grf pack
03:37<Supercheese>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF
03:37<Ether_Man>I have. But cant get it to recognise them.
03:38<Supercheese>might not have extracted it to the right place?
03:42<Ether_Man>Well since it recognises most of the same pack, I would assume so.
03:43<Ether_Man>%Documents%\OpenTTD\newgrf\
03:46<Ether_Man>Ah right. The file it's missing isnt in the pack :/ stolentreesw_162_108.grf only a testw.grf is in that folder
03:49<Supercheese>not on Bananas?
03:49<Supercheese>i.e. check online content?
03:50<Ether_Man>Nope. Nothing in that pack seems to be found using that.
03:52<Ether_Man>I would assume this has something to do with version for the save is 7.3 while the latest pack being 8.0 but cant find a 7.3 download either :/
03:57<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=880938#p880938
03:58<Flygon>Ether_Man: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/bridgemaster2.png
03:59<Supercheese>Yo dawg, I heard you like bridges...
03:59<Ether_Man>Alberth, md5 is different so ottd doesnt recognise it anyway. But I've given up now. I probably would not have understood the mess anyway :)
03:59<Ether_Man>Flygon, no no no. S?dert?lje looks nothing like that :)
04:00<Flygon>More, for ludicrous bridges xP
04:00<@Alberth>:(
04:01<@Alberth>we need bridges that show the tracks and roads
04:05<Ether_Man>Btw. Last question before I stop playing for the day... I've seen quite a number of station designs today where they've put the platform to only be one or two in length. Is there any special benefit to this or what's up with that?
04:06<@Alberth>it takes less space, mostly
04:06<@Alberth>and since you build tracks around your station, you reduce space there as well
04:07<Ether_Man>So basically, needs less space, but looks ugly as sin?
04:07<@Alberth>there is also the issue of block length
04:07<@Alberth>beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)
04:07<peter1138>morning
04:08<@Alberth>just like it's not efficient to have a 20 tile track without signals, it's also not highly efficient to have a long platform for a short train
04:08<@Alberth>at least if you care enough about efficiency :)
04:08<@Alberth>morning peter
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04:09<Ether_Man>Alberth, well no but they seem to be running quite long trains where the train is vastly longer than the platform.
04:13<Supercheese>in unpatched OTTD that would cause significant loading delays
04:13<@Alberth>sure it's a station and not a waypoint?
04:14<Ether_Man>Alberth, uses the original ttd station skin at least
04:15<@Alberth>you can use a station as pass-through point
04:15<Ether_Man>Supercheese, does it even work? As in can a long train even use such a station? I kind of assumed they were only being used as some kind of stop to use advanced orders or something, hence the question
04:15<@Alberth>loading and unloading is possible but not advised
04:15<Supercheese>^ that
04:16<Supercheese>Any train whose length in tiles is longer than the station will have severe penalty to loading speed
04:16<Supercheese>You can use e.g. single-tile metros though for urban areas
04:17<Supercheese>simulate light rail/underground or whatnot
04:18<peter1138>hmm, need to get clothes for a funeral :S
04:21<Ether_Man>peter1138, don't have a suit?
04:26<@Alberth>not an appropriate one, apparently
04:26<peter1138>nope, don't have one at all
04:26<Supercheese>T__T
04:26<peter1138>i'm a coder :p
04:26<Supercheese>clearly Alberth was implying the Birthday Suit
04:27<Supercheese>oh wait, I meant to do
04:27<Supercheese>-__-
04:28<Supercheese>wrong emote derp
04:28<Supercheese>bah, it's too late, should sleep
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05:05<Wolf01>moin
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06:01<@Alberth>hi hi
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06:45<Flygon>Supercheese: Dunno about overseas
06:46<Flygon>But single car EMUs were a thing here for sets that were usually 6-8 cars long
06:46<Flygon>Long story short: A few of the urban lines extended far enough to be considered regional...
06:47<Flygon>In part because it was just easier to run EMUs for goods and pax. than steam locos for part of the line xP
06:47<Flygon>Hurstbridge comes immediately to mind
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13:03<andythenorth>o/
13:04<@Rubidium>ohla
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27386 trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt (2015-08-14 19:45:16 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>dutch - 3 changes by TheTycoonist
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14:00<andythenorth>Friday Cat
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14:01<Supercheese>as opposed to Caturday eh
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14:02<frosch123>does the "diff" function work for anyone on newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net ?
14:02<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyN-CRNrb3E
14:03<Supercheese>Hmm, no comparing revisions seems to be broken
14:03<Supercheese>I noticed last night and thought it was just a fluke
14:03<frosch123>orudge: comparing revisions seems broken on both tt-wiki and newgrf-specs.tt-wiki. the difference is always empty
14:04<Supercheese>All right, who enabled wiki breakdowns? :P
14:04<Supercheese>need to service at the wikidepot
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14:22*andythenorth ponders
14:22<andythenorth>eh, does _anyone_ use Iron Horse?
14:22*andythenorth has a question
14:22<frosch123>does _anyone_ ue openttd?
14:22<frosch123>i am sure iron horse users are a subset of that
14:23<andythenorth>they ask questions
14:23<andythenorth>so they probably use OpenTTD
14:30<Supercheese>I confess I have not used Iron Horse
14:30<Supercheese>I find it extremely difficult to part ways with UKRS and NARS
14:31<andythenorth>ha
14:32*andythenorth ponders adding the pre-1860 trains
14:33<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5580/0-4-0_bury_0.PNG
14:35<Supercheese>or a 4-2-0 Crampton-pattern?
14:38<andythenorth>nah, not deviating from what Dan has already drawn :)
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17:10<@orudge>frosch123: hm, I upgraded Debian recently, which would have upgraded MediaWiki. I'll have to look into it.
17:11<frosch123>sounds plausbile, the looks of it somewhat changed
17:11<frosch123>cookie hints and such
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18:46<Wolf01>night
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19:27<Ether_Man>Anyone have a pic or guide for how to make high throughput merging? Been looking at a lot of different station designs, but I just cannot get anything I try to work very well. Testing various designs in a quite short loop where a 9 line ro-ro station needs to merge into a lower number, but even trying to merge them to three lines (any to any style), it creates massive problems even with a quite low amount of trains where it creates long queues on the in line
19:27<Ether_Man>s because trains cant leave the station fast enough, even though 3 lines to 1 works flawlessly.
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause>just make 3 3-to-1 merges
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>no need to mix things
19:30<Ether_Man>With the design I have in mind, it kind of does.
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>why? as long as the 3 lines run in parallel, and every exit can be reached from each of the 3 lines?
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19:32<Ether_Man>Because the 3 lines only run in parallell for testing the station design. They're not intended to do so for the final thing
19:38<_dp_>that's too much trains for one line, afaik 3-4 platforms per line is about max you can get without building some ridiculously complex compressors
19:38<_dp_>at least that goes for 7 tile trains and TIM or Asia
19:39<Ether_Man>_dp_, 9 to 3, is 3 platforms per line.
19:40<_dp_>ah, I though you wantet to merge them to one line
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19:51<Sylf>eh... any "good design" denpends on the context, when I build anything
19:55<Ether_Man>Sylf, was gonna have a try at basically a star design network where all trains either feed the station or picks up any of their type that is there.
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19:59<Eddi|zuHause>mixing 9 platforms into 3 single track lines seems to me as an unnecessarily tight goal
20:00<Sylf>without any context, I don't have any specifics... but you can read TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP
20:00<Sylf>er
20:00<Sylf>read http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Merging_Tracks
20:00<ChrisSawyer>You won't believe who I am
20:01<Sylf>nope.
20:01<Sylf>ChrisSawyer connecting from an American ISP? Nope.
20:01<ChrisSawyer>I made the original transport tycoon
20:06<Ether_Man>You might share a name with him, but it's highly doubtful that Chris Sawyer would be connecting from a home line in the US...
20:06<Ether_Man>As in, the Chris Sawywer who made TT
20:08<ChrisSawyer>just enjoying my flat screen TV in my lamborghini bought with the millions of dollars i made from RCT
20:09<Ether_Man>In the words of Jeremy Clarkson, "Only a complete twat would actually buy one"...
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i believe that you are onision
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21:50<Afdal>Hay what % of ocean covered do Low and Very Low correspond to?
21:50<Afdal>And Medium I guess
21:50<Afdal>Sea Level*
22:00<Eddi|zuHause>i think the actual results vary widely
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>so just use what gives good results, without sticking to absolute numbers
22:02<Afdal>:I
22:02<Afdal>doesn't anyone know
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>src/tgp.cpp:static const amplitude_t _water_percent[4] = {70, 170, 270, 420};
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>src/tgp.cpp: const amplitude_t water_percent = sea_level_setting != (int)CUSTOM_SEA_LEVEL_NUMBER_DIFFICULTY ? _water_percent[sea_level_setting] : _settings_game.game_creation.custom_sea_level * 1024 / 100;
22:06<Afdal>I:}?
22:07<Afdal>@_@
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>so 0 is 0 and 1024 is 100%
22:08<Afdal>uhh...
22:08<Afdal>@_@
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>do i need to spell this out for you?
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>have you skipped 5th grade maths?
22:10<Afdal>Where are the numbers for Very Low, Low, and Medium???
22:11<Afdal>oh are those Very Low to High?
22:11<Afdal>so Very Low = 70/1024%?
22:11<Afdal>6.8%
22:12<ChrisSawyer>Afdal, if i had to hire people to help code RCT in assembly, i would definitely not hire you
22:12<Afdal>wow seriously
22:13<ChrisSawyer>I made RCT all by myself, and now i'm a rich millionaire who doesn't care about anyone
22:13<Afdal>excuse me for not immediately understanding a bunch of code jargon
22:13<ChrisSawyer>I just lean back in my recliner and watch pay-to-view shows on my plasma TV while eating truffles and caviar
22:13<ChrisSawyer>Screw OpenTTD
22:13<Afdal>Also Chris why did you release Railroad Tycoon as "Transport Tycoon" for smartphone crap :'(
22:13<ChrisSawyer>My buggy version of Transport Tycoon is far superior
22:14<Ether_Man>Afdal, it's not him...
22:14<Afdal>xd
22:14<Eddi|zuHause>obvious troll is obvious
22:14<Afdal>so 70, 170, 270, 420 = Very Low, Low, Medium, High?
22:14<Ether_Man>The real Chris Sawyer lives in Scottland. ChrisSawyer is from the US.
22:15*Afdal pokes Eddi|zuHause
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>Afdal: presumably. but i have not actually read any of the surrounding code
22:16<Afdal>hmm
22:16<Afdal>well
22:16<Afdal>thanks for the info
22:17<ChrisSawyer>the OpenTTD has immortalized me and my contributions to the gaming world, but I take that for granted
22:17<ChrisSawyer>Who wants to be immortal, anyway?
22:18<Afdal>oh hey
22:18<Afdal>I have some old notes here actually
22:18<Afdal>hmm
22:19<Afdal>according to someone else... the numbers are 20/1024, 80/1024, 250/1024, 400/1024
22:19<Afdal>Think they got changed recently?
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22:21<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 27228
22:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by alberth :: r27228 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2015-04-11 20:42:48 +0200 )
22:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Change: Slightly more water in the non-custom sea levels (chillcore)
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>presumably part of the more height level tweaks
22:22<Afdal>:o
22:22<Afdal>I see :3
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>these changes are probably not part of 1.5
22:24<Afdal>what about 1.5.1?
22:25<Eddi|zuHause>that means any 1.5.x (including future ones)
22:25<Afdal>hmm
22:25<Afdal>thanks
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 15 00:00:04 2015