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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-08-17

---Logopened Mon Aug 17 00:00:07 2015
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04:14<Wolf01>hi hi
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05:21<blathijs>Anyone remember Netstorm, this supercool out-of-the-box rts-ish game? They're going for a remake of it:
05:42<@planetmaker>moin moin
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06:19<Wolf01> which grf?
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07:14<Celestar>good day peops
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16:58<argoneus>so uh I have a question
16:58<argoneus>if someone here's played simutrans
16:58<argoneus>is there anything you feel it has over ottd?
16:59<argoneus>or is it p much the same game just done differently
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17:01<argoneus>like openttd is basically from the 90s but it's pretty and looks nice
17:01<argoneus>but simutrans just looks... old
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17:18<Payl>Hi guys, is there a way to make conditional with train length? I wonder why it isn't option in 1.4 (and prob 1.5 aswell..?)
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17:23<Eddi|zuHause>you can use platform length to sort by train length. a train will try to go to the platform it best fits in
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17:24<Eddi|zuHause>there is a massive penalty for too short platforms, and a moderate penalty for too long platforms, and you can also customize it by too long and too long for per tile penalties through the console
17:26<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: Well in my case it's waypoint before station - there is buffering of incomming trains, and one of buffers can only accept trains up to X length
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>in my experience, waypoints before the station do not work well in combination with path signals
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>because you lose the pathfinder penalty for occupied platform (which is behind the waypoint, and thus not checked by the pathfinder at all)
17:29<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: Well i'm not as experienced as you probably :) I think it's more convinient to make two stations instead of one+waypoints... anyway, it won't help solve my problem: train can go to buffer it cant fit in and probably lock some quite some track..
17:30<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: also, why would i care about penalty for platforms if i use entry signals...
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's what i was trying to say. turn the buffer into a station, and use "go via" orders, to turn it into a waypoint
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: block signals circumvent the problem i mentioned, yes
17:31<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: well, since i have limited space there, i could only fit 3-level buffer, 1-level isn't enough :P
17:31<Payl>so i have trains waiting in tunels and on bridge :P
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>that may be a problem ;)
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>the alternative is an overflow depot
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>it will fit any number and length of trains
17:32<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: i probably will convert it to a bigger buffer that can fit all train lengths that arrive there anyway.. just wondering why isn't this option in game? :P
17:33<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: overflow depot wouldnt be fast enough probably, also would trains pile up there?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>the main problem is usually that either nobody has worked on it, or the solution is too complicated to set up or explain to people
17:34<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: well conditional orders are in game, and train speed, age is... so i dont get why not train length? :P
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>the thing you're looking for would be called "routing restrictions"
17:35<Payl>well, they would be very useful...
17:36<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: are you game dev by any chance? :P
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17:43<Flygon>Everyone here is a game dev if you squint hard enough
17:43<Flygon>Just don't ask me to code
17:43<Flygon>My scripts once caused flamewars I am scared of bringing over to here
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'm mentioned a few times in the commit logs, if that's what you mean. but i've never been an official developer
17:45<Payl>Flygon: can i know this story plx? :PPP
17:45<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: next time we'll let you hit return ;)
17:46<Flygon>Payl: Long story short - TASVideos has particular opinions as to what is good coding practice with regards to nested statements
17:46<Flygon>This says a lot about how picky TASVideos is
17:46<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: well, since you are closer to community than me, tell me: why devs focus on bugfixing rather than on new features? Thats how it looks to me at least
17:46<Flygon>Payl: Bugtesting new features is a pain in the ass
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'll probably refuse :p
17:46<Flygon>Shh, Eddi. Just silently nod and agree with me. I got this.
17:47<Payl>Flygon: well good coding practice is no rules for me :P It all depends on case
17:47<Payl>Flygon: well, just implement feature - if it doesnt crash after 1h then push to trunk and wait for bug reports...
17:47<Flygon>Even then, it depends on the feature...
17:47<Flygon>EVERYONE wants flexible viaducts and subways
17:47<Flygon>But that aint gonna happen
17:48<Flygon>Nobody even agrees on how the GUI would work
17:48<Payl>well, programable signals would be something new :P
17:48<Flygon>Even if we all have a few ideas in our head
17:48<Flygon>Ahh, not too familiar with programmable signals myself
17:48<Payl>i dont think there is any new feature i would use since i started playing this game :P (1.2 i think)
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: with that strategy, the project would fall apart within months
17:49<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: well, isn't development to add new things?
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>if you ever took a development class, they would tell you that 10% is coding new things, and 90% is maintaining the code you wrote previously
17:50<Flygon>That's also true
17:50<@Rubidium>also... adding new things becomes significantly easier when you can drop support for old things
17:50<Payl>well, this is true, but it doesnt mean why should focus on this 90% :P
17:51<Flygon>Rubidium: The moment Flygon realizes OpenTTD has the same problems Windows has... xP
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>90% doesn't get less 90% by not focusing
17:51<@Rubidium>e.g. many issues can be solved by removing the ability to play against/with eachother and/or to save/load your games
17:51<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: well, but 10%=0 afaik? :P
17:52<Payl>Rubidium: why would anyone want to save game?!
17:52<Payl>Just run it in VM and suspend VM
17:52<Flygon>I can see where you're coming at, but that's not a very good solution
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: that's fine, if you discard the ability to update versions and play on with your old game
17:53<Payl>well, that was a joke :P
17:53<Payl>well, if the game was designed correctly, that adding something new on top of existing stuff should be possible "quite" painlessly
17:54<Payl>i mean, it wont be supereasy, but if we dont want to add new things, why do we dev this anyway?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>that only works for new things that don't change any existing things
17:54<Flygon>Payl, try not to shoot the hand that feeds you
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17:54<Eddi|zuHause>which is about 0% of all the new things people want to add
17:54<Flygon>Everyone that codes for this projects is a voluteer, doing this in their spare time x:
17:55<Flygon>Sure, more work could be done, but I don't particulary see enough donations rolling in to pay for the developer's full time attention
17:55<Payl>Flygon: thats the case for many projects that make huge leaps forward :P
17:55<@Rubidium>Payl: you can have a well designed bungalow, but you can't add floors until it's a sky scraper... at some point you really need to redo the fundaments
17:55<Flygon>I gotta disappear for several hours
17:56<Payl>well, you dont seem to understand my point: My main point is: If you dont want to add new features, why dev this game?..
17:56<Payl>developing is IMO to add new stuff and also fix broken stuff
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: the point is that the premise of your point is wrong
17:57<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: probably, but i just wonder why new things arent added
17:57<@Rubidium>Payl: improving a bungalow doesn't mean adding floors until it's a sky scraper. It's making small modifications so it becomes a better bungalow
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>plenty of new stuff was added between 1.2 and 1.5. if you choose to ignore it, it's not our fault
17:57<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: what for example? I might be not informed enough
17:58<@Rubidium>i.e. some large features can't be added because that requires making OpenTTD not OpenTTD anymore (go from a bungalow to a sky scraper), whereas quite a few small features are added... but you'll often overlook them
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: look at the changelog for entries that begin with "-Feature"
17:58<@Rubidium>e.g. autorail/autoroad. You won't notice them, but you'll really miss them when they're gone (play really old versions and you'll know what I mean)
17:59<Payl>Rubidium: probably it's easier to get used to new things than to admire them
17:59<Payl>and this is very correct, openttd is quite a leap from ttd
18:00<Payl>but i think i never had a openttd crash so IMO it's very stable
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: of course the biggest new features recently were CargoDist and More Height Levels
18:00<Payl>Rubidium: i don't get why you think openttd is missing something..?
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: and those have had years to ripen from idea into a feature
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18:01<Payl>well, this might be big for you guys, but im openttd nub! :P
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: "stability" isn't necessarily about it blowing up your computer
18:01<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: it's about crashing the game. I never had such problem.
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18:02<Eddi|zuHause>for example, play multiplayer for 8 hours with the stable release, and then play multiplayer for 8 hours with one of the patch packs around
18:02<Supercheese>also desyncs in multiplayer
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18:02<Payl>well, desyncs are hard to notice sometimes, im not sure since i'm not openttd pro again
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>patch packs exactly follow this strategy of "add features first, ask questions later"
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18:03<@Rubidium>Payl: I don't think that OpenTTD is missing anything, if I thought that I would have solved that issue
18:03<+glx>desyncs are easy to notice, but hard to fix ;)
18:03<Payl>Rubidium: are there are any features you would like to see in game? :P
18:04<Payl>glx: I would say both. Im not sure how bad desyncs get in openttd, but surely they are hard to fix
18:04<+glx>you are kicked out of the game
18:04<@Rubidium>Payl: not really
18:04<Payl>glx: oh well :P
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: btw. a large part of the features in the recent years were under the hood changes for better modding ability. you won't ever notice these changes until a script or newgrf uses them to make something really awesome
18:05<Payl>aha! there is problem! devs dont plan future of game.. jk, but prob it means something
18:05<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: well i messed around with newgrf and was amazed that game handless all my careless modifications
18:06*Rubidium thinks the bungalow skyscraper metaphore isn't clear enough
18:06<Payl>Rubidium: sry, im not native speaker :P
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: turn a car into a spaceship?
18:06<Payl>you mean that you need to cover basics first?
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: no. that's a bad strategy usually
18:07<Payl>well, then i dont get your metaphore :P
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: if you only ever cover bases, you never start the actual project
18:09<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: by basics i mean core of project.
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: you need to cover small part of the basis, build the first level of the project, then revisit the basis, build the second level, etc.
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>each added level requires you to revisit all the lower levels and the basis
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>but after you're done with each level, you have a polished project for release
18:10<+glx>it's like opendune, now the basic stuff it done and it needs a full rewrite to be able to improve things ;)
18:10<@Rubidium>in any case, OpenTTD was never designed to be this large and feature-rich. After all, it was designed to be very much like TTD minus some bugs
18:10<Payl>well, if your code is written correctly this only goes back X levels, but is correct for beggining projects
18:11<@Rubidium>so, imagine that version 0.1 of OpenTTD being a bungalow (a single floor house)
18:11<Payl>Rubidium: true, openttd is now almost new game now.
18:12<Payl>Rubidium: so, you mean you need to improve core of the game first?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: what i mean is, the more levels you already have, the more work needs to be done before you can add a new level
18:12<@Rubidium>then we added a lot of features; in the bungalow case this would be adding more floors, but now we have reached the stage where we can't continue adding floors without redoing the fundament of the building
18:12<Payl>Rubidium: yup, so it was going back to basics :P
18:13*NGC3982_ does actually feel like playing some OTTD.
18:13<@Rubidium>i.e. from bungalow to a three story house might be possible without too many invasive changes to the fundament, but adding more floors requires replacing the fundament
18:13<+glx>we already rewrote huge parts (all the GUI code)
18:13<@Rubidium>now all these new features essentially add a new floor, making the whole thing fairly unstable even if it doesn't look like that
18:13<Payl>oh, so now major game rewrite is being done?
18:14<@Rubidium>in any case, to add relatively big features, you basically need to start some stuff from scratch...
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>major rewrites are never "done"
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18:14<Payl>Rubidium: I understand, im dev myself so i understand you cant add new things unless game core supports it correctly
18:15<Payl>and this would explain lack of features
18:15<+glx>usually when you want to add a big feature you need to rewrite many parts of the code to simplify/help the integration
18:15<@Rubidium>the only problem is, when you start stuff from scratch you want to be able to re-evaluate all design decisions, but many if not all are set in stone by NewGRF and AI/GS specifications
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>what i said initially still holds, things like more conditional orders or routing restrictions are not really held back by "core" not supporting them, but rather by gui-design being insufficient
18:16<@Rubidium>so, either you drop support for a lot of existing content, or you don't do it, or ... you wait until someone has an incredibly good idea
18:16<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: don't forget the pathfinders
18:16<Payl>Eddi|zuHause: well, what GUI limitation plays role here? train length is an int...
18:17<+glx>all full of magic voodoo :)
18:17<Payl>Rubidium: well, there is never perfect solution. All solutions have their drawbacks and pros.
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>Payl: it's not a matter of things being too limited, but there must be a clear design underneath, so it's not just bloated
18:18<@Rubidium>Payl: a vehicle is 8 pixels high, the top of the bridge is 8 pixels above the ground (for a single height level bridge), then there is catenary that needs to be above the vehicle but below the bridge...
18:18<Payl>right, and right now i would imagine it's rather bloated
18:18-!-NGC3982_ is now known as NGC3982
18:18<@Rubidium>which is one of the reasons why a proper 3D engine doesn't work in OpenTTD's scale
18:19<@Rubidium>unless you say... okay, vehicles may only be 6 pixels high, but then you scrap essentially all graphics
18:19<+glx>a good example is variable daylength, many tried, noone had a real working solution
18:19<Payl>well, making OpenTTD 3D isn't an option, it would be another game.
18:19<Payl>glx: well, in my game i "fixed" it with cheatengine
18:20<Payl>just froze day variable...
18:20<Payl>it's not without it's problems, but good enough
18:20<@Rubidium>ah well, have fun with the discussion
18:20<@Rubidium>time to do something my body fancies doing
18:21<Payl>Rubidium: I get your point, dont think that i deny your arguments :P
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18:22<Payl>so, one more question: is stuff being reworked now? Because from Rubidium it sounds like waiting until stuff fixes itself? :P
18:22<NGC3982>Yes, i rock!
18:22<NGC3982>Logged on, joined a random network game, did something wrong, got kicked.
18:22*NGC3982 returns to DS9.
18:23<Payl>NGC3982: dont worry, you didnt get banned after all
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20:15<argoneus>dank memes
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21:15<Flygon>Eh, you can make OTTD 3D enough. Just prerender a lot of shit and you're done. xP
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>with this it was meant using a 3D engine to make it look like it currently looks (potentially speeding up drawing by offloading spritesorting to the graphics card)
21:22<Flygon>I thought all the sprites WERE handled by the GPU...
21:22<Flygon>...or am I assuming the wrong things of modern graphics hardware
21:23<Flygon>Then again, I don't really know HOW 2D acceleration has ever worked on PC's...
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21:24<Eddi|zuHause>no, all the sprites are handled by the CPU, and then a buffer is pushed to the GPU saying "this is how i want it to look. do it"
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21:44<Flygon>Eddi: Hmm...
21:44<Flygon>Has this ALWAYS been the case with PC?
21:45<Flygon>(one sec, dishwasher)
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22:03<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: at least for '90s PC games, this has always been the case
22:03*Flygon nod
22:03<Flygon>Alright, that would explain a lot
22:03<Flygon>x3 Sorry, waaaay too used to thinking of things in console terms, y'know?
22:03<Flygon>eg. hardware sprite ordering ect
22:04<Eddi|zuHause>that was never needed for PC, as the CPU generally was fast enough to do that
22:04<Flygon>Fast enough that the inefficiencies weren't a problem, aye
22:05<Eddi|zuHause>consoles usually have way specced down CPUs
22:06<Flygon>Well, that, and... rather bizarro rendering methods sometimes
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's backwards... people just got very creative with how to abuse the rendering methods that were available
22:07<Flygon>The Sega CD, for example... doesn't so much help the Mega Drive scale sprites. So much as it gets fed tiles from the ROM or CD, scales them, then sends the scaled material to the VDP...
22:07<Flygon>Which is, uhm. Well, for one thing, it consumes VDP tile space, hahaha
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>that might well be an explanation of how the warp drive works...
22:07<Flygon>I don't really know what they were thinking. Given there was other methods available of doing the same thing far more quickly...
22:08<Flygon>Oh, erm...
22:08<Flygon>Mega Drive gives the Sega CD picture
22:08<Flygon>Sega CD manipulates picture
22:08<Flygon>Feeds it back to Mega Drive, effectively uses Mega Drive as framebuffer
22:09<Flygon>Framebuffers scare me. They work well... until you either don't have enough spare room, or a bottleneck occours
22:09<Flygon>Then again, with modern computers, this really isn't a problem :D
22:09<Flygon>We've come a looong way
22:10<Flygon>Sure, I miss seeing the days where people would come up with clever workarounds for a simple problem... but
22:10<Flygon>It's probably best for the sanity of everyone xP
22:14<Flygon>Ahh... sorry for rambling x.x
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, all this abusing of hardware bugs and stuff made it really tricky to port games between platforms
22:16<Flygon>Well, that, and
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>even relying on timings was troubling
22:16<Flygon>Y'know, each platform having a different CPU arch. xP
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers
22:16<Flygon>Ooh, yeah. Isn't that why lots of 90s PCs had the Turbo button?
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>only in the very early 90's
22:18<Flygon>(the hardware bugs problem actually kinda bit the Mega Drive on the ass... when you have a console that's gone through that many hardware revisions, you will break at least a few games/utilities @_@)
22:18<Flygon>Coulda sworn I saw Turbo buttons being regular into 1998-1999
22:18<Flygon>But, I was like, a youngass kiddo at the time xP
22:19<Flygon>Our Primary School's computers ran like crap
22:19<Flygon>We used Windows ME PC's into 2004
22:19<Flygon>And the Turbo buttons were always turned on
22:19<Flygon>And the entire school shared a rather slow ISDN connection until 2003
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22:19<Flygon>It was so SLOOOOOW
22:21<Flygon>Didn't help ME kept crashing
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't really have any problems with ME, until it was so infested with malware i had to scrap it
22:22<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> 80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers <-- and often unplayable
22:22<Flygon>Eddi: When you put Windows ME in the hands of an 9 year old
22:23<Flygon>Expect bad things to happen
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: i don't see why that would affect ME more than any other...
22:23<+glx>same with any windows
22:23<+glx>even with older users
22:24<Flygon>Eddi: It's a Primary School
22:24<Flygon>You'll get all sorts of stupid insane crap happening
22:24<Flygon>And everyone knows it's just preparing them for the insane insanity of absurdity that'll come in High School
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but that's not the point
22:25*Flygon scratches head
22:25<Flygon>And they did like breaking the 9x machines too...
22:25<Flygon>Either way, when 2000 started being phased in, things started crashing far less
22:26<+glx>of course it was a NT system
22:26<Flygon>Yup :D
22:26<Flygon>I loved the 2000 computers. Never lost my work
22:26<Flygon>And more importantly
22:26<+glx>but not very good at gaming
22:26<Flygon>The games never crashed
22:26<Eddi|zuHause>people had lots of fun with ping of death, for a day or two...
22:26<Flygon>...I love how glx and I said directly opposing statement simultainiously
22:27<Flygon>Tho, the audio for the older DOS games was troublesome on both 2K and XP x.x
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>but that wasn't elementary school :p
22:27<Flygon>At least in High School, all the computers had XP
22:27<Flygon>I mean
22:27<Flygon>They ran like utter crap
22:27<Flygon>But at least they worked xP
22:28<Eddi|zuHause>at our school, all the PCs had 98, except one that ran NT, and one that ran linux
22:29*Flygon nod
22:29<Flygon>What year?
22:29<Flygon>Wait, 98 or 98SE? O_o
22:29<+glx>at school we had thomson MO5
22:29<Flygon>Thomson MO5... I don't think that brand even existed in Australia
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>i left school in 2000
22:30<Flygon>Eddi: 2010
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>the PCs were generally disused ones from big companies
22:31<Flygon>Most of the computers we got in Primary
22:31<Flygon>Were either ones that were mass purchased around 1995-1996 (most ran 95 when I first got in, and was clearly their first OS)
22:31<Flygon>Or ones handed down to the school through Government computer retirement programmes
22:31<Flygon>Where instead of scrapping the PCs, they'd give them to Schools
22:32<Flygon>Thus making the Inner City High School Computer joke in Futurama extremely relatable to me xP
22:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember that joke
22:32<Flygon>glx: I can see why I may not've heard of the brand x3
22:32<Flygon>Eddi: One sec
22:33<Flygon>The episode where they go to the planet of the robots
22:33<Eddi|zuHause>i do not have all episodes of futurama memorized
22:33<+glx>Flygon: and they were still in use in 1993
22:34<Flygon>glx: To me, that would've been extremely cool as a kid
22:34<Flygon>The other kids probably wouldn't have found it cool
22:34<Flygon>But I would've xP
22:35<Eddi|zuHause>the first year we had computer course in school they taught us DOS commands and microsoft works [on win 3.11]
22:35<Flygon>Ah, crap
22:35<Flygon>I can't find the quote x.x
22:35<Flygon>oooohh... 3.11
22:35<Flygon>I used that like
22:35<Flygon>In Kindergarten
22:35<Flygon>In 2006...
22:36<Flygon>...there was a meeting going on, and I attended
22:36<Flygon>And noticed their computers were old as hell and asked if they mind I took a stickybeek :B
22:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think this was in 7th grade, which would make this 1994/1995-ish
22:37*Flygon nod
22:37<Flygon>First computer I ever used was in that same year...
22:37<supermop>did you have computers in school in DDR Eddi|zuHause ? or would that have been before your time?
22:37<Flygon>Which actually made using 3.11 really weird
22:38<Flygon>Because, I assumed before Windows 95 existed
22:38<Flygon>ALL desktop computers ran DOS
22:38<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: no, and yes.
22:38<Flygon>And thought Windows didn't exist before 95
22:38<Flygon>I mean... I booted the 3.11 PC and was like
22:38<Flygon>"Where's da start menu?"
22:39<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: well, windows 1-3 ran on DOS, Windows 95 was basically Windows 4
22:39<Flygon>Then figured out what the Program Manager thing on the desktop was for
22:39<Flygon>I know, but
22:39<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i've never seen an east german microcomputer but i assumed there would have been some in some institutions at least
22:39<Flygon>I meant, raw DOS. All text based interface ect x3
22:39<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: universities had some
22:40<supermop>local or western? or russian?
22:40<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: there was a computer manufacturer in east germany called "robotron", but people also had imported western computers, and especially software...
22:40<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: russian computers also existed
22:41<supermop>please tell me someone purchased that trademark from the state in 91
22:41<supermop>best brand name ever
22:41<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what happened to the brand
22:41<Eddi|zuHause>although, many brands were purchased by western companies, and then never used
22:41<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: ive seen old soviet russian calculators and microcomputers on ebay from time to time
22:42<supermop>calculators with VFDs
22:43<Eddi|zuHause>there was a shipment of a supercomputer to our university, and some parts of crates for it we used as base for our model railway. i spent a lot of time as a kid staring at the russian letters underneath trying to decipher what they say
22:43<Eddi|zuHause>but the only word i ever could decipher was "Dresden"
22:43<Flygon>My extent of reading Russian letters
22:43<Flygon>Is knowing that Pectopat isn't pronounced Pektopat
22:44<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i assume that one was easier to pick out from context
22:44<Flygon>It's pronounced Resturant
22:44<Flygon>Or however you spell it
22:44<Eddi|zuHause>restaurant isn't pronounced restaurant either
22:44<Flygon>Jesus Christ. I can spell the thing in Russian but not English. That's how crap English is. :D
22:45<Flygon>Yeah, exactly. I keep trying to type it semi-phonetically and failing baaadly
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22:45<Flygon>In my head, I say it like "Res-trau-nt"
22:46<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i think it might actually have been the other way around, somebody told me it said "Dresden" and then i matched the letters
22:47<supermop>in the 70s my dad bought an HP calculator, either with LED or VFD display, when he was doing his masters or phd
22:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, i could just have asked my mother to read it to me, she taught russian in school
22:47<supermop>and it cost him more than his car
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22:48<supermop>saved him having to punch cards and carry them to the computer building though
22:48<Eddi|zuHause>calculators always seemed weird to me, as they didn't seem to follow moore's law
22:48<Flygon>To be fair
22:48<Flygon>They sorta have
22:48<Flygon>It's just that for the purposes of being thumb compatible
22:49<Flygon>They have to remain a particular minimum size
22:49<supermop>they certainly do not come down in cost
22:49<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: well, but if they don't go down in size, they should go down in price instead
22:49<Flygon>I was going by an interperetation where Moores Law applied to a Calculator where
22:49<Flygon>Over time
22:49<Flygon>It has a sized power
22:49<supermop>a graphing calculator today is about the same cost and same functionality, and same size, as one from the late 80s
22:50<Flygon>So therefor the improvements come from either size or performance
22:50<Flygon>...I just said gibberish
22:50<Flygon>Bear with me, flu
22:50<Flygon>The issue with calculators coming down in price
22:50<Eddi|zuHause>a bear AND the flu? poor you.
22:50<Flygon>If we compleeeeetely ignore the monopolies making the prices artificially high
22:50<supermop>maybe the bear has the flu
22:50<Flygon>Is stuff like plastic casing. Stuff gotta be made out of Nintendium yo :B
22:50<Flygon>I'm not a Bear
22:51<Flygon>I'm not that sort of non-straigt person
22:51<supermop>calculators are like text books
22:51<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a plastic case worth 10 cents makes a calculator cost 120€?
22:51<Flygon>Because h's are evil
22:51<Flygon>Eddi: It's a very pretty case! xP
22:51<Flygon>But, yeah. Calculators got the same problem as Text Books
22:51<supermop>high school or professor suggests or requires a certain model for a certain course
22:51<supermop>so TI has no reason to improve it or make it cheaper
22:52<Flygon>Sure. It'd be cheaper to just use a $100 laptop which can open both the Textbook PDFs AND a suitable calculator software
22:52<Flygon>But that'll never fuckin' happen xP
22:52<supermop>and even if casio or HP make a competitor that is better, no one buys it unless a professor mandates that one instead
22:52<Eddi|zuHause>every phone nowadays could just run a calculator app that beats out any calculator ever.
22:53<supermop>but course mandates TI-86, even if it was meager in 1990
22:54<supermop>so you have a guaranteed market going to buy a TI-86 no matter how expensive or crappy it is,
22:54<Flygon>Eddi: AND have a big enough screen for the textbooks
22:55<Flygon>Well, if there's any upshot of this. All these TI calculators can run Pokemon Red and Blue flawlessly xP
22:55<supermop>Flygon: most proctors would not let you sit for an exam with a laptop on your desk
22:56<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: well, when i went to university, the running gag was that someone ported command&comquer to TI-86. with multiplayer capability
22:59<Flygon>Sorry for the delay, was cooking
22:59<Flygon>supermop: Welll...
22:59<Flygon>That's a good point
22:59<Flygon>Eddi: Hahaha :D
23:01<supermop>Flygon: maybe they should, maybe not. Today you could make arguments that rote memorization and traditional examination are increasingly obsolete as educational tools, but that's a matter for different debate among educators
23:02<Flygon>There's a time and place for memorization
23:02<supermop>there is also a lot of a club mentality - "if i had to do this with only this equipment then kids today should have to do so too"
23:02<Flygon>But setting students up for an environment where they must force themselves to remember an absolute truckload of information across a wide berth of subjects
23:03<Flygon>Just to fill in answers on a sheet for a week long period of their lives
23:03<Flygon>Is not very healthy for the students
23:03<Flygon>And won't likely have them REMEMBERING the information later
23:03<Eddi|zuHause>our math teacher once asked us whether we wanted to write the test with or without graphical calculator. followed with: "when you want to write with, the questions will be formulated in a way that you won't have a use for it."
23:04<supermop>a standardized test that you make as hard to cheat at as possible is pretty much state of the art for the late 19th century when people first began to seriously try to make a science of education.
23:04<Flygon>Then again
23:04<Flygon>I failed math x:
23:04<Flygon>I still can't remember a thing about algebra or trigonometry...
23:04<supermop>today you could probably better measure someones comprehension with other methods
23:04<Eddi|zuHause>i think the test was about differentiation or integration or something along that line
23:05<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: actually not much need for calculators in the conceptual basics of calculus
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>so the questions would have been things so complicated that the calculator wouldn't be able to do
23:06<supermop>making someone sit a basic calc exam where they need a calculator is more painful busywork than actually determining if they learned the material
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>everyone somewhat agreed that we'd write the test without calculator :p
23:07<supermop>i only really got a lot of use out of my ti 86 in AP chemistry
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>what does AP stand for?
23:08<supermop>advanced placement
23:08<supermop>its a sort of worthless system in the us
23:09<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, graphical calculators are generally more useful in applied sciences, where you've got statistics to plot and stuff
23:09<supermop>whereby you take a very basic level university course in high school, and then depending on the AP exam results may get some university credits for it
23:10<supermop>so you can then save time at university or skip some classes
23:11<supermop>my AP german scores placed me in german iii at university but would not give me 'credits' for skipping i and ii unless i also completed iv and v
23:11<Eddi|zuHause>and after German V you can speak german like a 5-year-old?
23:12<supermop>so where i just wanted to take an easy german course as an elective on the side and stay current in my proficiency, i was dropped into a hard class which made me decide to give it up after ii
23:12<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i could speak german better after my high school german than after my university german!
23:13<supermop>and better still after my middle school german
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>skipping introduction classes doesn't seem like a great idea generally
23:13<supermop>i was never that serious about keeping up with it unfortunately so i'd put myself at the 3 year old level today
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>they might cover pieces you didn't actually discuss in school
23:14<Eddi|zuHause>and even for the other stuff, repeating it is never wrong
23:15<supermop>the other AP classes i took in high school were all for thinks i never needed to touch in university anyway except physics and calculus
23:15<Eddi|zuHause>like i took advanced maths courses in a specialized maths school, but even though until the 4th semester i encountered lots of stuff we already covered in school, skipping the first two semesters would have been deadly
23:15<supermop>so i gave up on german and tried japanese and swedish instead
23:16<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i also found some things were done differently between my UK middle school and US high school
23:16<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably normal
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>that is even a problem just moving between schools
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>or within germany, moving from one state to another
23:17<supermop>so while generally i was 2 or so years 'ahead' in math when i came back to the us, there were a couple important things i would have missed if i actually tried to skip those years
23:18<supermop>same in the US, generally public school curricula are set by states, not the federal government for better or for worse
23:18<supermop>(mostly for worse)
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>this is kind of a big discussion in germany as well
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>especially about comparing the final results wrt university application
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>a 1.0 [best grade] in Bremen is potentially much easier to reach than a 1.0 in Bavaria
23:20<supermop>universities generally try to have their own methods for ranking different high schools across the country
23:20<supermop>which can lead to all sorts of problems
23:20<Eddi|zuHause>yet for courses like medicine, which have a Numerus Clausus, both these results are treated the same
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>the individual universities don't actually have much to say in this
23:21<supermop>universities here are a bit weird
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>there is a centralized system for distributing students which want to take such courses
23:21<supermop>and give objectively some of the best educations in the world,
23:21<supermop>but in many many cases not
23:22<Eddi|zuHause>so basically the university says "we have 100 seats", and the system assigns them 100 students which either have good enoug grades or accumulated waiting semesters
23:22<supermop>the public schools each have variying amounts of independence from their state, and varying motivations and goals
23:23<supermop>and the private universities are sort of unchecked
23:23<supermop>which causes many public universities to go to great lengths to try to match them
23:24<supermop>and other private universities are not at all competitive
23:24<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: are german universities federal or state governed?
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>in the german federal system, education is strictly a state business, and there is even a ban on "cooperation" between the states [which is currently under controversial debate]
23:26<supermop>are they funded by state taxes?
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>so universities are usually state funded, but also have some autonomy
23:26<supermop>so that rich states would have better funded programs?
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23:27<Eddi|zuHause>that could be the case, but i don't think it has a lot of effect in practice
23:28<supermop>here tuition is relatively cheap if you are a state resident at a state university, but full price if not
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>tuition isn't really a thing in germany
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>unless you go to a private university
23:29<supermop>so state schools are mandated to primarily serve their residents but try to attract as many foreign students as the reasonably can to subsidize the cost
23:29<supermop>to a lesser extent with us residents from other states too
23:30<Eddi|zuHause>a few years ago there was a court case, which, on an almost unrelated topic, said there isn't actually a ban on tuition fees. then some states enacted fees of about 500€ per semester, but all those states rolled back the tuition fees again
23:30<supermop>even before the last 15-20 years when tuition got so expensive here, this was common practice
23:30<Eddi|zuHause>now, the 500€ usually applies to students that exceed the regular studying time by more than 4 semesters
23:30<supermop>i would have loved to pay 4000 eur to go to school
23:31<supermop>instead of the 160,000 usd
23:32<supermop>going back for my masters would be about another 100,000, all in loans as no college savings left obviously
23:32<Eddi|zuHause>most universities charge you some 50-150€ per semester, which covers some basic administrative tasks and often public transport within the city
23:32<Eddi|zuHause>then you have to figure out a place to live and pay for that and your food
23:32<supermop>some americans pay off their student loans when they are in their 40s or 50s
23:33<supermop>and they didnt even pay as much as people of my generation
23:33<supermop>back then tuition was maybe a few thousand at most a year
23:33<supermop>in some cases a few hundred
23:33<supermop>and more many people free if they got the right scholarships
23:35<supermop>Flygon: and in the us it is almost impossible to get much of any kind of job without university degree
23:36<supermop>even if you want to be a machinist or welder, you pay quite a bit for the post-secondary technical degree or certificate program
23:36<Flygon>supermop: What about Trade School?
23:37<Eddi|zuHause>there is also a student funding program which gives you money based on the income on your parents, half of which you never have to give back, and the other half you have to pay back once you get a decently paid job
23:37<Eddi|zuHause>(so if you have rich parents you don't get anything, if you have poor parents you get like 400€ per month)
23:39<supermop>Flygon: trade school costs money, sometimes more than just going to a basic state university
23:40<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: schools do that here on their own, but its up to them how much, and a poor student still often ended up with a gap to pay which may be quite hard to cover
23:42<supermop>even if the gap is just a few thousand dollars, they will need to take loans and work to cover all their costs, and the work may prevent them from taking classes full time, which means they take more years to graduate, so they need to get more money to pay for more school
23:44<supermop>Flygon: many trade and vocational programs are borderline predatory
23:44<supermop>almost none are publicly run outside of the military
23:44<Flygon>Yeeaaah I wouldn't join the military
23:44<supermop>you probaby can get a grant to do something weird like be a shipwright for free
23:45<supermop>but if you want to do a basic in demand manufacturing job that requires special training, you are paying for it
23:45<supermop>ok bed time here
23:45<Flygon>Night brah!
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