| --- | Log | opened Mon Aug 17 00:00:07 2015 |
| 00:02 | -!- | supermop [~supermop@pool-71-183-121-153.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 00:22 | -!- | smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd |
| 00:30 | -!- | liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd |
| 00:56 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66C72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] |
| 00:56 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5E39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 01:48 | -!- | Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d08848e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd |
| 02:12 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd |
| 02:18 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 02:18 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd |
| 02:32 | -!- | Markk [mark@h30n15-nt-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 03:16 | -!- | TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 04:14 | -!- | Wolf01 [~wolf01@host253-237-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd |
| 04:14 | <Wolf01> | hi hi |
| 04:29 | -!- | Smedles [~quassel@58.160.136.199] has joined #openttd |
| 04:33 | -!- | sla_ro|master2 [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd |
| 04:36 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 04:43 | -!- | Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@a392.ip16.netikka.fi] has joined #openttd |
| 05:12 | -!- | JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 05:21 | <blathijs> | Anyone remember Netstorm, this supercool out-of-the-box rts-ish game? They're going for a remake of it: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/525138512/disciples-of-the-storm-rts |
| 05:42 | <@planetmaker> | moin moin |
| 06:09 | -!- | openbu [~openbu@202.98.90.3] has joined #openttd |
| 06:19 | <Wolf01> | http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ajngVmR_700b.jpg which grf? |
| 07:12 | -!- | Celestar [~vici@x5d856060.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd |
| 07:14 | <Celestar> | good day peops |
| 07:15 | <Wolf01> | o/ |
| 07:20 | <openbu> | hi |
| 07:22 | -!- | Celestar [~vici@x5d856060.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 07:27 | <V453000> | hy |
| 07:30 | -!- | openbu [~openbu@202.98.90.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 07:30 | -!- | Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 07:31 | -!- | Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd |
| 07:33 | -!- | Celestar [~vici@fire3.tngtech.com] has joined #openttd |
| 07:45 | -!- | LadyHawk [~LadyHawk@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has quit [] |
| 08:29 | -!- | supermop [~supermop@pool-71-183-121-153.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd |
| 08:45 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 08:54 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd |
| 08:54 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ |
| 09:01 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 09:08 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 09:12 | -!- | shirish [~quassel@117.195.115.125] has joined #openttd |
| 10:28 | -!- | Celestar [~vici@fire3.tngtech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 10:40 | -!- | Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd |
| 10:40 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 10:46 | -!- | KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 10:47 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 10:50 | -!- | KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd |
| 10:51 | -!- | sla_ro|master2 [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [] |
| 10:54 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:02 | -!- | KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:08 | -!- | roidal [~roland@194-152-175-222.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd |
| 11:11 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 11:12 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:12 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd |
| 11:12 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ |
| 11:18 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:22 | -!- | KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd |
| 11:24 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces] |
| 11:38 | -!- | smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 11:38 | -!- | smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd |
| 11:44 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 11:51 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:53 | -!- | TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:58 | -!- | TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 12:04 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd |
| 12:05 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ |
| 12:12 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A19619.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 12:30 | -!- | frosch123 [~frosch@x5f744b55.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd |
| 12:32 | -!- | glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd |
| 12:32 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ |
| 12:33 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 12:33 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd |
| 12:33 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ |
| 12:37 | -!- | Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d08848e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] |
| 12:40 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@89.246.174.11] has joined #openttd |
| 12:53 | -!- | gelignite [~gelignite@mue-88-130-102-099.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #openttd |
| 12:56 | -!- | Pensacola [~quassel@88.159.51.52] has joined #openttd |
| 12:59 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 13:06 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 13:10 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd |
| 13:22 | -!- | snorre [~snorre@89.9.168.191] has joined #openttd |
| 13:22 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 13:24 | -!- | snorre_ [~snorre@c26F6BF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 13:27 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 13:35 | -!- | Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 14:03 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 14:10 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 14:19 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 14:26 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 14:28 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd |
| 14:28 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ |
| 14:32 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 14:34 | -!- | Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd |
| 14:34 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ |
| 14:34 | -!- | liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] |
| 14:35 | -!- | tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 14:39 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A19619.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 14:40 | -!- | Ttech [~ttech@dragons.have.mostlyincorrect.info] has quit [Quit: Este é o fim.] |
| 14:51 | -!- | Ttech [~ttech@dragons.have.mostlyincorrect.info] has joined #openttd |
| 14:57 | -!- | mntasauri [~motesorri@192.73.232.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 14:57 | -!- | mntasauri [~motesorri@192.73.232.107] has joined #openttd |
| 14:58 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 15:02 | -!- | Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] |
| 15:05 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 15:05 | -!- | Pensacola [~quassel@88.159.51.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 15:08 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 15:08 | -!- | smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 15:16 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 15:19 | -!- | shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.96.139] has joined #openttd |
| 15:27 | -!- | shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 15:40 | -!- | roidal [~roland@194-152-175-222.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.2] |
| 16:00 | -!- | Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@a392.ip16.netikka.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client] |
| 16:08 | -!- | DDR [~David@S0106001f16aa47bc.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd |
| 16:15 | -!- | shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.96.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 16:33 | -!- | frosch123 [~frosch@x5f744b55.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] |
| 16:34 | -!- | Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d08848e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd |
| 16:48 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A19619.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 16:58 | <argoneus> | so uh I have a question |
| 16:58 | <argoneus> | if someone here's played simutrans |
| 16:58 | <argoneus> | is there anything you feel it has over ottd? |
| 16:59 | <argoneus> | or is it p much the same game just done differently |
| 16:59 | -!- | roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.138.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:01 | <argoneus> | like openttd is basically from the 90s but it's pretty and looks nice |
| 17:01 | <argoneus> | but simutrans just looks... old |
| 17:10 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 17:17 | -!- | Payl [~kvirc@178.183.170.100.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #openttd |
| 17:17 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:18 | <Payl> | Hi guys, is there a way to make conditional with train length? I wonder why it isn't option in 1.4 (and prob 1.5 aswell..?) |
| 17:20 | -!- | gelignite [~gelignite@mue-88-130-102-099.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/1kso8Ta] |
| 17:20 | -!- | sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [] |
| 17:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can use platform length to sort by train length. a train will try to go to the platform it best fits in |
| 17:23 | -!- | Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 17:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there is a massive penalty for too short platforms, and a moderate penalty for too long platforms, and you can also customize it by too long and too long for per tile penalties through the console |
| 17:26 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: Well in my case it's waypoint before station - there is buffering of incomming trains, and one of buffers can only accept trains up to X length |
| 17:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in my experience, waypoints before the station do not work well in combination with path signals |
| 17:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because you lose the pathfinder penalty for occupied platform (which is behind the waypoint, and thus not checked by the pathfinder at all) |
| 17:29 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: Well i'm not as experienced as you probably :) I think it's more convinient to make two stations instead of one+waypoints... anyway, it won't help solve my problem: train can go to buffer it cant fit in and probably lock some quite some track.. |
| 17:30 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: also, why would i care about penalty for platforms if i use entry signals... |
| 17:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, that's what i was trying to say. turn the buffer into a station, and use "go via" orders, to turn it into a waypoint |
| 17:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: block signals circumvent the problem i mentioned, yes |
| 17:31 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: well, since i have limited space there, i could only fit 3-level buffer, 1-level isn't enough :P |
| 17:31 | <Payl> | so i have trains waiting in tunels and on bridge :P |
| 17:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that may be a problem ;) |
| 17:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the alternative is an overflow depot |
| 17:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it will fit any number and length of trains |
| 17:32 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: i probably will convert it to a bigger buffer that can fit all train lengths that arrive there anyway.. just wondering why isn't this option in game? :P |
| 17:33 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: overflow depot wouldnt be fast enough probably, also would trains pile up there? |
| 17:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the main problem is usually that either nobody has worked on it, or the solution is too complicated to set up or explain to people |
| 17:34 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: well conditional orders are in game, and train speed, age is... so i dont get why not train length? :P |
| 17:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the thing you're looking for would be called "routing restrictions" |
| 17:35 | <Payl> | well, they would be very useful... |
| 17:36 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: are you game dev by any chance? :P |
| 17:37 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A19619.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 17:43 | <Flygon> | Everyone here is a game dev if you squint hard enough |
| 17:43 | <Flygon> | Just don't ask me to code |
| 17:43 | <Flygon> | My scripts once caused flamewars I am scared of bringing over to here |
| 17:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm mentioned a few times in the commit logs, if that's what you mean. but i've never been an official developer |
| 17:45 | <Payl> | Flygon: can i know this story plx? :PPP |
| 17:45 | <@Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause: next time we'll let you hit return ;) |
| 17:46 | <Flygon> | Payl: Long story short - TASVideos has particular opinions as to what is good coding practice with regards to nested statements |
| 17:46 | <Flygon> | This says a lot about how picky TASVideos is |
| 17:46 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: well, since you are closer to community than me, tell me: why devs focus on bugfixing rather than on new features? Thats how it looks to me at least |
| 17:46 | <Flygon> | Payl: Bugtesting new features is a pain in the ass |
| 17:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rubidium: i'll probably refuse :p |
| 17:46 | <Flygon> | Shh, Eddi. Just silently nod and agree with me. I got this. |
| 17:47 | <Flygon> | xP |
| 17:47 | <Payl> | Flygon: well good coding practice is no rules for me :P It all depends on case |
| 17:47 | <Payl> | Flygon: well, just implement feature - if it doesnt crash after 1h then push to trunk and wait for bug reports... |
| 17:47 | <Flygon> | Even then, it depends on the feature... |
| 17:47 | <Flygon> | EVERYONE wants flexible viaducts and subways |
| 17:47 | <Flygon> | But that aint gonna happen |
| 17:48 | <Flygon> | Nobody even agrees on how the GUI would work |
| 17:48 | <Payl> | well, programable signals would be something new :P |
| 17:48 | <Flygon> | Even if we all have a few ideas in our head |
| 17:48 | <Flygon> | Ahh, not too familiar with programmable signals myself |
| 17:48 | <Payl> | i dont think there is any new feature i would use since i started playing this game :P (1.2 i think) |
| 17:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: with that strategy, the project would fall apart within months |
| 17:49 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: well, isn't development to add new things? |
| 17:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you ever took a development class, they would tell you that 10% is coding new things, and 90% is maintaining the code you wrote previously |
| 17:50 | <Flygon> | Heheh... |
| 17:50 | <Flygon> | That's also true |
| 17:50 | <@Rubidium> | also... adding new things becomes significantly easier when you can drop support for old things |
| 17:50 | <Payl> | well, this is true, but it doesnt mean why should focus on this 90% :P |
| 17:51 | <Flygon> | Rubidium: The moment Flygon realizes OpenTTD has the same problems Windows has... xP |
| 17:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 90% doesn't get less 90% by not focusing |
| 17:51 | <@Rubidium> | e.g. many issues can be solved by removing the ability to play against/with eachother and/or to save/load your games |
| 17:51 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: well, but 10%=0 afaik? :P |
| 17:52 | <Payl> | Rubidium: why would anyone want to save game?! |
| 17:52 | <Payl> | Just run it in VM and suspend VM |
| 17:52 | <Flygon> | Uhm |
| 17:52 | <Flygon> | I can see where you're coming at, but that's not a very good solution |
| 17:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: that's fine, if you discard the ability to update versions and play on with your old game |
| 17:53 | <Payl> | well, that was a joke :P |
| 17:53 | <Payl> | well, if the game was designed correctly, that adding something new on top of existing stuff should be possible "quite" painlessly |
| 17:54 | <Payl> | i mean, it wont be supereasy, but if we dont want to add new things, why do we dev this anyway? |
| 17:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that only works for new things that don't change any existing things |
| 17:54 | <Flygon> | Payl, try not to shoot the hand that feeds you |
| 17:54 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 17:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which is about 0% of all the new things people want to add |
| 17:54 | <Flygon> | Everyone that codes for this projects is a voluteer, doing this in their spare time x: |
| 17:55 | <Flygon> | Sure, more work could be done, but I don't particulary see enough donations rolling in to pay for the developer's full time attention |
| 17:55 | <Payl> | Flygon: thats the case for many projects that make huge leaps forward :P |
| 17:55 | <Flygon> | Anyway |
| 17:55 | <@Rubidium> | Payl: you can have a well designed bungalow, but you can't add floors until it's a sky scraper... at some point you really need to redo the fundaments |
| 17:55 | <Flygon> | I gotta disappear for several hours |
| 17:55 | <Flygon> | Bye |
| 17:56 | <Payl> | well, you dont seem to understand my point: My main point is: If you dont want to add new features, why dev this game?.. |
| 17:56 | <Payl> | developing is IMO to add new stuff and also fix broken stuff |
| 17:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: the point is that the premise of your point is wrong |
| 17:57 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: probably, but i just wonder why new things arent added |
| 17:57 | <@Rubidium> | Payl: improving a bungalow doesn't mean adding floors until it's a sky scraper. It's making small modifications so it becomes a better bungalow |
| 17:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | plenty of new stuff was added between 1.2 and 1.5. if you choose to ignore it, it's not our fault |
| 17:57 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: what for example? I might be not informed enough |
| 17:58 | <@Rubidium> | i.e. some large features can't be added because that requires making OpenTTD not OpenTTD anymore (go from a bungalow to a sky scraper), whereas quite a few small features are added... but you'll often overlook them |
| 17:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: look at the changelog for entries that begin with "-Feature" |
| 17:58 | <@Rubidium> | e.g. autorail/autoroad. You won't notice them, but you'll really miss them when they're gone (play really old versions and you'll know what I mean) |
| 17:59 | <Payl> | Rubidium: probably it's easier to get used to new things than to admire them |
| 17:59 | <Payl> | and this is very correct, openttd is quite a leap from ttd |
| 18:00 | <Payl> | but i think i never had a openttd crash so IMO it's very stable |
| 18:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: of course the biggest new features recently were CargoDist and More Height Levels |
| 18:00 | <Payl> | Rubidium: i don't get why you think openttd is missing something..? |
| 18:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: and those have had years to ripen from idea into a feature |
| 18:00 | -!- | Ribena [Ribena@host-78-147-71-51.as13285.net] has joined #openttd |
| 18:01 | <Payl> | well, this might be big for you guys, but im openttd nub! :P |
| 18:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: "stability" isn't necessarily about it blowing up your computer |
| 18:01 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: it's about crashing the game. I never had such problem. |
| 18:02 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 18:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | for example, play multiplayer for 8 hours with the stable release, and then play multiplayer for 8 hours with one of the patch packs around |
| 18:02 | <Supercheese> | also desyncs in multiplayer |
| 18:02 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 18:02 | -!- | Hawky [~Hawky@5ED4968C.cm-7-5c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 18:02 | <Payl> | well, desyncs are hard to notice sometimes, im not sure since i'm not openttd pro again |
| 18:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | patch packs exactly follow this strategy of "add features first, ask questions later" |
| 18:03 | -!- | Ribena is now known as Ria |
| 18:03 | <@Rubidium> | Payl: I don't think that OpenTTD is missing anything, if I thought that I would have solved that issue |
| 18:03 | <+glx> | desyncs are easy to notice, but hard to fix ;) |
| 18:03 | <Payl> | Rubidium: are there are any features you would like to see in game? :P |
| 18:04 | <Payl> | glx: I would say both. Im not sure how bad desyncs get in openttd, but surely they are hard to fix |
| 18:04 | <+glx> | you are kicked out of the game |
| 18:04 | <@Rubidium> | Payl: not really |
| 18:04 | <Payl> | glx: oh well :P |
| 18:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: btw. a large part of the features in the recent years were under the hood changes for better modding ability. you won't ever notice these changes until a script or newgrf uses them to make something really awesome |
| 18:05 | <Payl> | aha! there is problem! devs dont plan future of game.. jk, but prob it means something |
| 18:05 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: well i messed around with newgrf and was amazed that game handless all my careless modifications |
| 18:06 | * | Rubidium thinks the bungalow skyscraper metaphore isn't clear enough |
| 18:06 | <Payl> | Rubidium: sry, im not native speaker :P |
| 18:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rubidium: turn a car into a spaceship? |
| 18:06 | <Payl> | you mean that you need to cover basics first? |
| 18:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: no. that's a bad strategy usually |
| 18:07 | <Payl> | well, then i dont get your metaphore :P |
| 18:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: if you only ever cover bases, you never start the actual project |
| 18:09 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: by basics i mean core of project. |
| 18:09 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 18:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: you need to cover small part of the basis, build the first level of the project, then revisit the basis, build the second level, etc. |
| 18:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | each added level requires you to revisit all the lower levels and the basis |
| 18:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but after you're done with each level, you have a polished project for release |
| 18:10 | <+glx> | it's like opendune, now the basic stuff it done and it needs a full rewrite to be able to improve things ;) |
| 18:10 | <@Rubidium> | in any case, OpenTTD was never designed to be this large and feature-rich. After all, it was designed to be very much like TTD minus some bugs |
| 18:10 | <Payl> | well, if your code is written correctly this only goes back X levels, but is correct for beggining projects |
| 18:11 | <@Rubidium> | so, imagine that version 0.1 of OpenTTD being a bungalow (a single floor house) |
| 18:11 | <Payl> | Rubidium: true, openttd is now almost new game now. |
| 18:12 | <Payl> | Rubidium: so, you mean you need to improve core of the game first? |
| 18:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: what i mean is, the more levels you already have, the more work needs to be done before you can add a new level |
| 18:12 | <@Rubidium> | then we added a lot of features; in the bungalow case this would be adding more floors, but now we have reached the stage where we can't continue adding floors without redoing the fundament of the building |
| 18:12 | <Payl> | Rubidium: yup, so it was going back to basics :P |
| 18:13 | * | NGC3982_ does actually feel like playing some OTTD. |
| 18:13 | <@Rubidium> | i.e. from bungalow to a three story house might be possible without too many invasive changes to the fundament, but adding more floors requires replacing the fundament |
| 18:13 | <+glx> | we already rewrote huge parts (all the GUI code) |
| 18:13 | <@Rubidium> | now all these new features essentially add a new floor, making the whole thing fairly unstable even if it doesn't look like that |
| 18:13 | <Payl> | oh, so now major game rewrite is being done? |
| 18:14 | <@Rubidium> | in any case, to add relatively big features, you basically need to start some stuff from scratch... |
| 18:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | major rewrites are never "done" |
| 18:14 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 18:14 | <Payl> | Rubidium: I understand, im dev myself so i understand you cant add new things unless game core supports it correctly |
| 18:15 | <Payl> | and this would explain lack of features |
| 18:15 | <+glx> | usually when you want to add a big feature you need to rewrite many parts of the code to simplify/help the integration |
| 18:15 | <@Rubidium> | the only problem is, when you start stuff from scratch you want to be able to re-evaluate all design decisions, but many if not all are set in stone by NewGRF and AI/GS specifications |
| 18:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what i said initially still holds, things like more conditional orders or routing restrictions are not really held back by "core" not supporting them, but rather by gui-design being insufficient |
| 18:16 | <@Rubidium> | so, either you drop support for a lot of existing content, or you don't do it, or ... you wait until someone has an incredibly good idea |
| 18:16 | <+glx> | Eddi|zuHause: don't forget the pathfinders |
| 18:16 | <Payl> | Eddi|zuHause: well, what GUI limitation plays role here? train length is an int... |
| 18:17 | <+glx> | all full of magic voodoo :) |
| 18:17 | <Payl> | Rubidium: well, there is never perfect solution. All solutions have their drawbacks and pros. |
| 18:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Payl: it's not a matter of things being too limited, but there must be a clear design underneath, so it's not just bloated |
| 18:18 | <@Rubidium> | Payl: a vehicle is 8 pixels high, the top of the bridge is 8 pixels above the ground (for a single height level bridge), then there is catenary that needs to be above the vehicle but below the bridge... |
| 18:18 | <Payl> | right, and right now i would imagine it's rather bloated |
| 18:18 | -!- | NGC3982_ is now known as NGC3982 |
| 18:18 | <@Rubidium> | which is one of the reasons why a proper 3D engine doesn't work in OpenTTD's scale |
| 18:19 | <@Rubidium> | unless you say... okay, vehicles may only be 6 pixels high, but then you scrap essentially all graphics |
| 18:19 | <+glx> | a good example is variable daylength, many tried, noone had a real working solution |
| 18:19 | <Payl> | well, making OpenTTD 3D isn't an option, it would be another game. |
| 18:19 | <Payl> | glx: well, in my game i "fixed" it with cheatengine |
| 18:20 | <Payl> | just froze day variable... |
| 18:20 | <Payl> | it's not without it's problems, but good enough |
| 18:20 | <@Rubidium> | ah well, have fun with the discussion |
| 18:20 | <@Rubidium> | time to do something my body fancies doing |
| 18:21 | <Payl> | Rubidium: I get your point, dont think that i deny your arguments :P |
| 18:21 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 18:22 | <Payl> | so, one more question: is stuff being reworked now? Because from Rubidium it sounds like waiting until stuff fixes itself? :P |
| 18:22 | <NGC3982> | Yes, i rock! |
| 18:22 | <NGC3982> | Logged on, joined a random network game, did something wrong, got kicked. |
| 18:22 | * | NGC3982 returns to DS9. |
| 18:23 | <Payl> | NGC3982: dont worry, you didnt get banned after all |
| 18:25 | <NGC3982> | :p |
| 18:58 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@89.246.174.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 18:59 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 19:06 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:12 | -!- | Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d08848e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:16 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 19:23 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:24 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 19:30 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:35 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5B2166F8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 19:37 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC119E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:37 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5B2166F8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 19:41 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
| 19:41 | -!- | Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] |
| 19:44 | -!- | Payl [~kvirc@178.183.170.100.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] |
| 19:44 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5B2166F8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:48 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5B2166F8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:49 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC11F5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 20:09 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC11F5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 20:15 | <argoneus> | dank memes |
| 20:16 | -!- | Nathan1852 [~Nathan185@p5DC11F5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 20:18 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC11F5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd |
| 20:25 | -!- | Nathan1852_ [~Nathan185@p5DC11F5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 21:15 | <Flygon> | Eh, you can make OTTD 3D enough. Just prerender a lot of shit and you're done. xP |
| 21:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | with this it was meant using a 3D engine to make it look like it currently looks (potentially speeding up drawing by offloading spritesorting to the graphics card) |
| 21:22 | <Flygon> | Ooh |
| 21:22 | <Flygon> | I thought all the sprites WERE handled by the GPU... |
| 21:22 | <Flygon> | ...or am I assuming the wrong things of modern graphics hardware |
| 21:23 | <Flygon> | Then again, I don't really know HOW 2D acceleration has ever worked on PC's... |
| 21:24 | -!- | JezK_ [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd |
| 21:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, all the sprites are handled by the CPU, and then a buffer is pushed to the GPU saying "this is how i want it to look. do it" |
| 21:26 | -!- | JezK_ [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has quit [] |
| 21:26 | -!- | JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd |
| 21:31 | -!- | Nathan1852__ [~Nathan185@p5DC11F5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 21:33 | -!- | Hawky [~Hawky@5ED4968C.cm-7-5c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 21:44 | -!- | OsteHovel [~OsteHovel@77.18.155.191.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 21:44 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Hmm... |
| 21:44 | <Flygon> | Has this ALWAYS been the case with PC? |
| 21:45 | <Flygon> | (one sec, dishwasher) |
| 21:45 | -!- | OsteHovel [~OsteHovel@90.89-11-235.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd |
| 21:56 | -!- | DDR_ [~David@S0106001f16aa47bc.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd |
| 21:59 | <Flygon> | (back) |
| 22:01 | -!- | DDR [~David@S0106001f16aa47bc.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 22:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: at least for '90s PC games, this has always been the case |
| 22:03 | * | Flygon nod |
| 22:03 | <Flygon> | Alright, that would explain a lot |
| 22:03 | <Flygon> | x3 Sorry, waaaay too used to thinking of things in console terms, y'know? |
| 22:03 | <Flygon> | eg. hardware sprite ordering ect |
| 22:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that was never needed for PC, as the CPU generally was fast enough to do that |
| 22:04 | <Flygon> | Mm |
| 22:04 | <Flygon> | Fast enough that the inefficiencies weren't a problem, aye |
| 22:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | consoles usually have way specced down CPUs |
| 22:06 | <Flygon> | Well, that, and... rather bizarro rendering methods sometimes |
| 22:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think that's backwards... people just got very creative with how to abuse the rendering methods that were available |
| 22:07 | <Flygon> | The Sega CD, for example... doesn't so much help the Mega Drive scale sprites. So much as it gets fed tiles from the ROM or CD, scales them, then sends the scaled material to the VDP... |
| 22:07 | <Flygon> | Which is, uhm. Well, for one thing, it consumes VDP tile space, hahaha |
| 22:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that might well be an explanation of how the warp drive works... |
| 22:07 | <Flygon> | I don't really know what they were thinking. Given there was other methods available of doing the same thing far more quickly... |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | Oh, erm... |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | Basically |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | Mega Drive gives the Sega CD picture |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | Sega CD manipulates picture |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | Feeds it back to Mega Drive, effectively uses Mega Drive as framebuffer |
| 22:09 | <Flygon> | Framebuffers scare me. They work well... until you either don't have enough spare room, or a bottleneck occours |
| 22:09 | <Flygon> | Then again, with modern computers, this really isn't a problem :D |
| 22:09 | <Flygon> | We've come a looong way |
| 22:10 | <Flygon> | Sure, I miss seeing the days where people would come up with clever workarounds for a simple problem... but |
| 22:10 | <Flygon> | It's probably best for the sanity of everyone xP |
| 22:14 | <Flygon> | Ahh... sorry for rambling x.x |
| 22:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, all this abusing of hardware bugs and stuff made it really tricky to port games between platforms |
| 22:16 | <Flygon> | Well, that, and |
| 22:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | even relying on timings was troubling |
| 22:16 | <Flygon> | Y'know, each platform having a different CPU arch. xP |
| 22:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers |
| 22:16 | <Flygon> | Ooh, yeah. Isn't that why lots of 90s PCs had the Turbo button? |
| 22:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | only in the very early 90's |
| 22:18 | <Flygon> | (the hardware bugs problem actually kinda bit the Mega Drive on the ass... when you have a console that's gone through that many hardware revisions, you will break at least a few games/utilities @_@) |
| 22:18 | <Flygon> | Hmm... |
| 22:18 | <Flygon> | Coulda sworn I saw Turbo buttons being regular into 1998-1999 |
| 22:18 | <Flygon> | But, I was like, a youngass kiddo at the time xP |
| 22:19 | <Flygon> | Our Primary School's computers ran like crap |
| 22:19 | <Flygon> | We used Windows ME PC's into 2004 |
| 22:19 | <Flygon> | And the Turbo buttons were always turned on |
| 22:19 | <Flygon> | And the entire school shared a rather slow ISDN connection until 2003 |
| 22:19 | -!- | KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 22:19 | <Flygon> | It was so SLOOOOOW |
| 22:21 | <Flygon> | Didn't help ME kept crashing |
| 22:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i didn't really have any problems with ME, until it was so infested with malware i had to scrap it |
| 22:22 | <+glx> | <Eddi|zuHause> 80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers <-- and often unplayable |
| 22:22 | <Flygon> | Eddi: When you put Windows ME in the hands of an 9 year old |
| 22:23 | <Flygon> | Expect bad things to happen |
| 22:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: i don't see why that would affect ME more than any other... |
| 22:23 | <+glx> | same with any windows |
| 22:23 | <+glx> | even with older users |
| 22:24 | <Flygon> | Eddi: It's a Primary School |
| 22:24 | <Flygon> | You'll get all sorts of stupid insane crap happening |
| 22:24 | <Flygon> | And everyone knows it's just preparing them for the insane insanity of absurdity that'll come in High School |
| 22:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes. but that's not the point |
| 22:25 | <Flygon> | True |
| 22:25 | * | Flygon scratches head |
| 22:25 | <Flygon> | And they did like breaking the 9x machines too... |
| 22:25 | <Flygon> | Either way, when 2000 started being phased in, things started crashing far less |
| 22:26 | <+glx> | of course it was a NT system |
| 22:26 | <Flygon> | Yup :D |
| 22:26 | <Flygon> | I loved the 2000 computers. Never lost my work |
| 22:26 | <Flygon> | And more importantly |
| 22:26 | <+glx> | but not very good at gaming |
| 22:26 | <Flygon> | The games never crashed |
| 22:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | people had lots of fun with ping of death, for a day or two... |
| 22:26 | <Flygon> | ...I love how glx and I said directly opposing statement simultainiously |
| 22:27 | <Flygon> | Tho, the audio for the older DOS games was troublesome on both 2K and XP x.x |
| 22:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but that wasn't elementary school :p |
| 22:27 | <Flygon> | At least in High School, all the computers had XP |
| 22:27 | <Flygon> | I mean |
| 22:27 | <Flygon> | They ran like utter crap |
| 22:27 | <Flygon> | But at least they worked xP |
| 22:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | at our school, all the PCs had 98, except one that ran NT, and one that ran linux |
| 22:29 | * | Flygon nod |
| 22:29 | <Flygon> | What year? |
| 22:29 | <Flygon> | Wait, 98 or 98SE? O_o |
| 22:29 | <+glx> | at school we had thomson MO5 |
| 22:29 | <Flygon> | Thomson MO5... I don't think that brand even existed in Australia |
| 22:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i left school in 2000 |
| 22:30 | <Flygon> | Eddi: 2010 |
| 22:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the PCs were generally disused ones from big companies |
| 22:30 | <+glx> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomson_MO5 |
| 22:30 | <Flygon> | Hmm... |
| 22:31 | <Flygon> | Most of the computers we got in Primary |
| 22:31 | <Flygon> | Were either ones that were mass purchased around 1995-1996 (most ran 95 when I first got in, and was clearly their first OS) |
| 22:31 | <Flygon> | Or ones handed down to the school through Government computer retirement programmes |
| 22:31 | <Flygon> | Where instead of scrapping the PCs, they'd give them to Schools |
| 22:32 | <Flygon> | Thus making the Inner City High School Computer joke in Futurama extremely relatable to me xP |
| 22:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't remember that joke |
| 22:32 | <Flygon> | glx: I can see why I may not've heard of the brand x3 |
| 22:32 | <Flygon> | Eddi: One sec |
| 22:33 | <Flygon> | The episode where they go to the planet of the robots |
| 22:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i do not have all episodes of futurama memorized |
| 22:33 | <+glx> | Flygon: and they were still in use in 1993 |
| 22:34 | <Flygon> | glx: To me, that would've been extremely cool as a kid |
| 22:34 | <Flygon> | The other kids probably wouldn't have found it cool |
| 22:34 | <Flygon> | But I would've xP |
| 22:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the first year we had computer course in school they taught us DOS commands and microsoft works [on win 3.11] |
| 22:35 | <Flygon> | Ah, crap |
| 22:35 | <Flygon> | I can't find the quote x.x |
| 22:35 | <Flygon> | Sorry |
| 22:35 | <Flygon> | oooohh... 3.11 |
| 22:35 | <Flygon> | I used that like |
| 22:35 | <Flygon> | In Kindergarten |
| 22:35 | <Flygon> | In 2006... |
| 22:36 | <Flygon> | ...there was a meeting going on, and I attended |
| 22:36 | <Flygon> | And noticed their computers were old as hell and asked if they mind I took a stickybeek :B |
| 22:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think this was in 7th grade, which would make this 1994/1995-ish |
| 22:37 | * | Flygon nod |
| 22:37 | <Flygon> | First computer I ever used was in that same year... |
| 22:37 | <supermop> | did you have computers in school in DDR Eddi|zuHause ? or would that have been before your time? |
| 22:37 | <Flygon> | Which actually made using 3.11 really weird |
| 22:38 | <Flygon> | Because, I assumed before Windows 95 existed |
| 22:38 | <Flygon> | ALL desktop computers ran DOS |
| 22:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: no, and yes. |
| 22:38 | <Flygon> | And thought Windows didn't exist before 95 |
| 22:38 | <Flygon> | I mean... I booted the 3.11 PC and was like |
| 22:38 | <Flygon> | "Where's da start menu?" |
| 22:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: well, windows 1-3 ran on DOS, Windows 95 was basically Windows 4 |
| 22:39 | <Flygon> | Then figured out what the Program Manager thing on the desktop was for |
| 22:39 | <Flygon> | I know, but |
| 22:39 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: i've never seen an east german microcomputer but i assumed there would have been some in some institutions at least |
| 22:39 | <Flygon> | I meant, raw DOS. All text based interface ect x3 |
| 22:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: universities had some |
| 22:40 | <supermop> | local or western? or russian? |
| 22:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: there was a computer manufacturer in east germany called "robotron", but people also had imported western computers, and especially software... |
| 22:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: russian computers also existed |
| 22:41 | <supermop> | please tell me someone purchased that trademark from the state in 91 |
| 22:41 | <supermop> | best brand name ever |
| 22:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i have no idea what happened to the brand |
| 22:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | although, many brands were purchased by western companies, and then never used |
| 22:41 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: ive seen old soviet russian calculators and microcomputers on ebay from time to time |
| 22:42 | <supermop> | calculators with VFDs |
| 22:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there was a shipment of a supercomputer to our university, and some parts of crates for it we used as base for our model railway. i spent a lot of time as a kid staring at the russian letters underneath trying to decipher what they say |
| 22:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but the only word i ever could decipher was "Dresden" |
| 22:43 | <Flygon> | My extent of reading Russian letters |
| 22:43 | <Flygon> | Is knowing that Pectopat isn't pronounced Pektopat |
| 22:44 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: i assume that one was easier to pick out from context |
| 22:44 | <Flygon> | It's pronounced Resturant |
| 22:44 | <Flygon> | Or however you spell it |
| 22:44 | <Flygon> | restaurant |
| 22:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | restaurant isn't pronounced restaurant either |
| 22:44 | <Flygon> | Jesus Christ. I can spell the thing in Russian but not English. That's how crap English is. :D |
| 22:45 | <Flygon> | Yeah, exactly. I keep trying to type it semi-phonetically and failing baaadly |
| 22:45 | -!- | liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd |
| 22:45 | <Flygon> | In my head, I say it like "Res-trau-nt" |
| 22:46 | <supermop> | hah |
| 22:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supermop: i think it might actually have been the other way around, somebody told me it said "Dresden" and then i matched the letters |
| 22:47 | <supermop> | in the 70s my dad bought an HP calculator, either with LED or VFD display, when he was doing his masters or phd |
| 22:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, i could just have asked my mother to read it to me, she taught russian in school |
| 22:47 | <supermop> | and it cost him more than his car |
| 22:47 | -!- | glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] |
| 22:48 | <supermop> | saved him having to punch cards and carry them to the computer building though |
| 22:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | calculators always seemed weird to me, as they didn't seem to follow moore's law |
| 22:48 | <Flygon> | Well |
| 22:48 | <Flygon> | To be fair |
| 22:48 | <Flygon> | They sorta have |
| 22:48 | <Flygon> | It's just that for the purposes of being thumb compatible |
| 22:49 | <Flygon> | They have to remain a particular minimum size |
| 22:49 | <supermop> | they certainly do not come down in cost |
| 22:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: well, but if they don't go down in size, they should go down in price instead |
| 22:49 | <Flygon> | I was going by an interperetation where Moores Law applied to a Calculator where |
| 22:49 | <Flygon> | Over time |
| 22:49 | <Flygon> | It has a sized power |
| 22:49 | <supermop> | a graphing calculator today is about the same cost and same functionality, and same size, as one from the late 80s |
| 22:50 | <Flygon> | So therefor the improvements come from either size or performance |
| 22:50 | <Flygon> | ...I just said gibberish |
| 22:50 | <Flygon> | Bear with me, flu |
| 22:50 | <Flygon> | The issue with calculators coming down in price |
| 22:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a bear AND the flu? poor you. |
| 22:50 | <Flygon> | If we compleeeeetely ignore the monopolies making the prices artificially high |
| 22:50 | <supermop> | maybe the bear has the flu |
| 22:50 | <Flygon> | Is stuff like plastic casing. Stuff gotta be made out of Nintendium yo :B |
| 22:50 | <Flygon> | I'm not a Bear |
| 22:51 | <Flygon> | I'm not that sort of non-straigt person |
| 22:51 | <Flygon> | :B |
| 22:51 | <supermop> | calculators are like text books |
| 22:51 | <Flygon> | ...non-straight |
| 22:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you mean a plastic case worth 10 cents makes a calculator cost 120€? |
| 22:51 | <Flygon> | Because h's are evil |
| 22:51 | <Flygon> | Eddi: It's a very pretty case! xP |
| 22:51 | <Flygon> | But, yeah. Calculators got the same problem as Text Books |
| 22:51 | <supermop> | high school or professor suggests or requires a certain model for a certain course |
| 22:51 | <supermop> | so TI has no reason to improve it or make it cheaper |
| 22:52 | <Flygon> | Sure. It'd be cheaper to just use a $100 laptop which can open both the Textbook PDFs AND a suitable calculator software |
| 22:52 | <Flygon> | But that'll never fuckin' happen xP |
| 22:52 | <supermop> | and even if casio or HP make a competitor that is better, no one buys it unless a professor mandates that one instead |
| 22:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | every phone nowadays could just run a calculator app that beats out any calculator ever. |
| 22:53 | <supermop> | but course mandates TI-86, even if it was meager in 1990 |
| 22:54 | <supermop> | so you have a guaranteed market going to buy a TI-86 no matter how expensive or crappy it is, |
| 22:54 | <Flygon> | Eddi: AND have a big enough screen for the textbooks |
| 22:55 | <Flygon> | Well, if there's any upshot of this. All these TI calculators can run Pokemon Red and Blue flawlessly xP |
| 22:55 | <supermop> | Flygon: most proctors would not let you sit for an exam with a laptop on your desk |
| 22:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: well, when i went to university, the running gag was that someone ported command&comquer to TI-86. with multiplayer capability |
| 22:59 | <Flygon> | Sorry for the delay, was cooking |
| 22:59 | <Flygon> | supermop: Welll... |
| 22:59 | <Flygon> | That's a good point |
| 22:59 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Hahaha :D |
| 23:01 | <supermop> | Flygon: maybe they should, maybe not. Today you could make arguments that rote memorization and traditional examination are increasingly obsolete as educational tools, but that's a matter for different debate among educators |
| 23:02 | <Flygon> | Well... |
| 23:02 | <Flygon> | There's a time and place for memorization |
| 23:02 | <supermop> | there is also a lot of a club mentality - "if i had to do this with only this equipment then kids today should have to do so too" |
| 23:02 | <Flygon> | But setting students up for an environment where they must force themselves to remember an absolute truckload of information across a wide berth of subjects |
| 23:03 | <Flygon> | Just to fill in answers on a sheet for a week long period of their lives |
| 23:03 | <Flygon> | Is not very healthy for the students |
| 23:03 | <Flygon> | And won't likely have them REMEMBERING the information later |
| 23:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | our math teacher once asked us whether we wanted to write the test with or without graphical calculator. followed with: "when you want to write with, the questions will be formulated in a way that you won't have a use for it." |
| 23:04 | <supermop> | a standardized test that you make as hard to cheat at as possible is pretty much state of the art for the late 19th century when people first began to seriously try to make a science of education. |
| 23:04 | <Flygon> | Harsh |
| 23:04 | <Flygon> | Then again |
| 23:04 | <Flygon> | I failed math x: |
| 23:04 | <Flygon> | I still can't remember a thing about algebra or trigonometry... |
| 23:04 | <supermop> | today you could probably better measure someones comprehension with other methods |
| 23:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think the test was about differentiation or integration or something along that line |
| 23:05 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: actually not much need for calculators in the conceptual basics of calculus |
| 23:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so the questions would have been things so complicated that the calculator wouldn't be able to do |
| 23:06 | <supermop> | making someone sit a basic calc exam where they need a calculator is more painful busywork than actually determining if they learned the material |
| 23:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | everyone somewhat agreed that we'd write the test without calculator :p |
| 23:07 | <supermop> | i only really got a lot of use out of my ti 86 in AP chemistry |
| 23:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what does AP stand for? |
| 23:08 | <supermop> | advanced placement |
| 23:08 | <supermop> | its a sort of worthless system in the us |
| 23:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but yes, graphical calculators are generally more useful in applied sciences, where you've got statistics to plot and stuff |
| 23:09 | <supermop> | whereby you take a very basic level university course in high school, and then depending on the AP exam results may get some university credits for it |
| 23:10 | <supermop> | so you can then save time at university or skip some classes |
| 23:11 | <supermop> | my AP german scores placed me in german iii at university but would not give me 'credits' for skipping i and ii unless i also completed iv and v |
| 23:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and after German V you can speak german like a 5-year-old? |
| 23:12 | <supermop> | so where i just wanted to take an easy german course as an elective on the side and stay current in my proficiency, i was dropped into a hard class which made me decide to give it up after ii |
| 23:12 | <supermop> | iii |
| 23:12 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: i could speak german better after my high school german than after my university german! |
| 23:13 | <supermop> | and better still after my middle school german |
| 23:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | skipping introduction classes doesn't seem like a great idea generally |
| 23:13 | <supermop> | i was never that serious about keeping up with it unfortunately so i'd put myself at the 3 year old level today |
| 23:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they might cover pieces you didn't actually discuss in school |
| 23:13 | <supermop> | indeed |
| 23:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and even for the other stuff, repeating it is never wrong |
| 23:15 | <supermop> | the other AP classes i took in high school were all for thinks i never needed to touch in university anyway except physics and calculus |
| 23:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like i took advanced maths courses in a specialized maths school, but even though until the 4th semester i encountered lots of stuff we already covered in school, skipping the first two semesters would have been deadly |
| 23:15 | <supermop> | so i gave up on german and tried japanese and swedish instead |
| 23:16 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: i also found some things were done differently between my UK middle school and US high school |
| 23:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is probably normal |
| 23:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is even a problem just moving between schools |
| 23:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or within germany, moving from one state to another |
| 23:17 | <supermop> | so while generally i was 2 or so years 'ahead' in math when i came back to the us, there were a couple important things i would have missed if i actually tried to skip those years |
| 23:18 | <supermop> | same in the US, generally public school curricula are set by states, not the federal government for better or for worse |
| 23:18 | <supermop> | (mostly for worse) |
| 23:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this is kind of a big discussion in germany as well |
| 23:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | especially about comparing the final results wrt university application |
| 23:19 | <supermop> | yes |
| 23:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a 1.0 [best grade] in Bremen is potentially much easier to reach than a 1.0 in Bavaria |
| 23:20 | <supermop> | universities generally try to have their own methods for ranking different high schools across the country |
| 23:20 | <supermop> | which can lead to all sorts of problems |
| 23:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yet for courses like medicine, which have a Numerus Clausus, both these results are treated the same |
| 23:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the individual universities don't actually have much to say in this |
| 23:21 | <supermop> | universities here are a bit weird |
| 23:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there is a centralized system for distributing students which want to take such courses |
| 23:21 | <supermop> | and give objectively some of the best educations in the world, |
| 23:21 | <supermop> | but in many many cases not |
| 23:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so basically the university says "we have 100 seats", and the system assigns them 100 students which either have good enoug grades or accumulated waiting semesters |
| 23:22 | <supermop> | the public schools each have variying amounts of independence from their state, and varying motivations and goals |
| 23:23 | <supermop> | and the private universities are sort of unchecked |
| 23:23 | <supermop> | which causes many public universities to go to great lengths to try to match them |
| 23:24 | <supermop> | and other private universities are not at all competitive |
| 23:24 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: are german universities federal or state governed? |
| 23:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in the german federal system, education is strictly a state business, and there is even a ban on "cooperation" between the states [which is currently under controversial debate] |
| 23:26 | <supermop> | are they funded by state taxes? |
| 23:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so universities are usually state funded, but also have some autonomy |
| 23:26 | <supermop> | so that rich states would have better funded programs? |
| 23:27 | -!- | KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd |
| 23:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that could be the case, but i don't think it has a lot of effect in practice |
| 23:28 | <supermop> | here tuition is relatively cheap if you are a state resident at a state university, but full price if not |
| 23:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | tuition isn't really a thing in germany |
| 23:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | unless you go to a private university |
| 23:29 | <supermop> | so state schools are mandated to primarily serve their residents but try to attract as many foreign students as the reasonably can to subsidize the cost |
| 23:29 | <supermop> | to a lesser extent with us residents from other states too |
| 23:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a few years ago there was a court case, which, on an almost unrelated topic, said there isn't actually a ban on tuition fees. then some states enacted fees of about 500€ per semester, but all those states rolled back the tuition fees again |
| 23:30 | <supermop> | even before the last 15-20 years when tuition got so expensive here, this was common practice |
| 23:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | now, the 500€ usually applies to students that exceed the regular studying time by more than 4 semesters |
| 23:30 | <supermop> | i would have loved to pay 4000 eur to go to school |
| 23:31 | <supermop> | instead of the 160,000 usd |
| 23:31 | <Flygon> | 160k?? |
| 23:31 | <Flygon> | Holy. |
| 23:31 | <Flygon> | FUCK. |
| 23:32 | <supermop> | going back for my masters would be about another 100,000, all in loans as no college savings left obviously |
| 23:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | most universities charge you some 50-150€ per semester, which covers some basic administrative tasks and often public transport within the city |
| 23:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then you have to figure out a place to live and pay for that and your food |
| 23:32 | <supermop> | some americans pay off their student loans when they are in their 40s or 50s |
| 23:33 | <supermop> | and they didnt even pay as much as people of my generation |
| 23:33 | <supermop> | back then tuition was maybe a few thousand at most a year |
| 23:33 | <supermop> | in some cases a few hundred |
| 23:33 | <supermop> | and more many people free if they got the right scholarships |
| 23:35 | <supermop> | Flygon: and in the us it is almost impossible to get much of any kind of job without university degree |
| 23:36 | <supermop> | even if you want to be a machinist or welder, you pay quite a bit for the post-secondary technical degree or certificate program |
| 23:36 | <Flygon> | supermop: What about Trade School? |
| 23:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there is also a student funding program which gives you money based on the income on your parents, half of which you never have to give back, and the other half you have to pay back once you get a decently paid job |
| 23:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (so if you have rich parents you don't get anything, if you have poor parents you get like 400€ per month) |
| 23:39 | <supermop> | Flygon: trade school costs money, sometimes more than just going to a basic state university |
| 23:39 | <Flygon> | True |
| 23:40 | <supermop> | Eddi|zuHause: schools do that here on their own, but its up to them how much, and a poor student still often ended up with a gap to pay which may be quite hard to cover |
| 23:42 | <supermop> | even if the gap is just a few thousand dollars, they will need to take loans and work to cover all their costs, and the work may prevent them from taking classes full time, which means they take more years to graduate, so they need to get more money to pay for more school |
| 23:44 | <supermop> | Flygon: many trade and vocational programs are borderline predatory |
| 23:44 | <supermop> | almost none are publicly run outside of the military |
| 23:44 | <Flygon> | Ooh... |
| 23:44 | <Flygon> | Yeeaaah I wouldn't join the military |
| 23:44 | <supermop> | you probaby can get a grant to do something weird like be a shipwright for free |
| 23:45 | <supermop> | but if you want to do a basic in demand manufacturing job that requires special training, you are paying for it |
| 23:45 | <supermop> | ok bed time here |
| 23:45 | <Flygon> | Night brah! |
| 23:45 | <supermop> | later |
| 23:53 | -!- | supermop [~supermop@pool-71-183-121-153.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 23:55 | -!- | sla_ro|laptop [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd |
| 23:59 | -!- | sla_ro|laptop [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] |
| --- | Log | closed Tue Aug 18 00:00:08 2015 |
