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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-08-18

---Logopened Tue Aug 18 00:00:08 2015
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05:30<jjavaholic>when it comes to creating ship systems it is best to place depots as close to the actual route/path ship will travel to reduce inefficiencies?
05:31<@planetmaker>yes. That's true for all vehicle types
05:31<@planetmaker>Though best it's to give explicit service orders
05:32<@planetmaker>Then you know when they service, where they service and you make sure they don't try to find a depot at the most inconvenient time
05:32<jjavaholic>refitting orders would also count as service orders?
05:34<@planetmaker>I'm not 100% sure
05:34<jjavaholic>same effect?
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06:41<@planetmaker>@ports
06:41<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
06:46<_dp_>why not tcp for masterserver btw?
06:46<@planetmaker>too much overhead
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06:49<Ether_Man>Anyone that could explain the purpose of the combosignals in the steel pickup area exits?
06:49<Ether_Man>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/0/0e/Psg219_steelpickup.png
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07:07<@planetmaker>Ether_Man, they relay the occupation of the following block to that very signal
07:08<@planetmaker>basically it means that the *exit* signals turn red when a train is leaving into that exit with the combo signal
07:08<Ether_Man>Which is exactly the same as the block signal right next to it isnt it?
07:09<@planetmaker>looks like it, yes
07:10<@planetmaker>maybe V453000 can explain what he thought back then :)
07:10<V453000>fuken work internet, gaming sites prohibited
07:10<V453000>cant access the image :(
07:10<V453000>sec
07:10<Ether_Man>heh
07:10<@planetmaker>wait
07:12<V453000>ha, seeing it on phone
07:12<V453000>poorly XD
07:12<V453000>so what was the question
07:12<V453000>ah right
07:12<V453000>that is an overflow detection
07:12<Ether_Man>V453000, the purpose of the combo signal at the exits :)
07:12<V453000>you can read about that in the Overflows III article
07:12<V453000>found on the blog
07:13<V453000>but they basically just detect all of the platforms
07:13<@planetmaker>but is that information used anywhere?
07:13<V453000>sure at the entry signal in front of the station
07:13<V453000>trains coming from overflow
07:13<V453000>with the dutch catenary the signals look damn similar to PBS
07:13<@planetmaker>oh! That's the missing clue indeed
07:14<V453000>yeah
07:14<@planetmaker>I deemed them path signals
07:14<V453000>the entry signal lets the train into the block, where PBS takes over
07:14<V453000>magix
07:15<@planetmaker>really playing the path finders :D
07:15<V453000>:)
07:15<V453000>I say it all the time that a combined entry + PBS signal would be nice ;)
07:16<Ether_Man>Sure seems like V is playing a completely different game from me at least ^_^;
07:16<V453000>duh
07:18<Ether_Man>would prefer a more realistic path reservation system myself. At least your problem there can be worked around seemingly relatively simple. Realistic pathing, cannot be done right now it seems
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: what would the semantics of that be?
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07:18<V453000>signal which lets trains pass if green from presignals AND a path would be clear?
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you probably want a programmable signal
07:18<V453000>no programmable signals are bullshit
07:18<V453000>one signal, one purpose, visually clear
07:18<Ether_Man>At least not without manually programmed signals mod, and then using quite advanced logics to do so :)
07:19<V453000>exactly this screenshot shows when signals look the "same" and have different usage
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but your need is too specific for a generic signal
07:19<V453000>too bad :)
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: there are 8 visually different signal types
07:19<Ether_Man>Eddi|zuHause, it's actually not. Real signals use dwarf signals for among other things, that very purpose
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: dwarf signals have the exact same meaning of regular signals
07:20<V453000>yes Eddi but the grf used in that screenshot makes PBS and entry look very similar
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>they are just smaller
07:20<Ether_Man>Which are incorporated in all signals within any range of a station or switch
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07:20<Ether_Man>Eddi|zuHause, no they don't.
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: yes, those are the original (TTDP) signals, which is why openttd later changed the path signals to be more visually distinct. but how is that a point against progammable signals?
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the game currently uses 6 of the 8 signal types, so you still have 2 signal types free to customize their behaviour
07:23<V453000>..
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: alternatively, you could invent a system to visually distinguish more signal types, without needing hundreds of sprites
07:25<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I think afd88 made a good point recently in one of the threads: signals are signals and routing can well use a visually distinctive thing (like waypoints)
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. using recolouring of mast signs
07:25<@planetmaker>it also eases the UI a lot
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but this isn't about routing restrictions, this is about progammable signals
07:25<V453000>I dont think I will be able to do anything for openttd anytime soon at all :)
07:26<V453000>programmable signals mean that you need to open some gui to see what they do I assume
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07:26<V453000>which is just insane to manage and orientate in
07:26<@planetmaker>so you're now totally lost to factorio?
07:26<V453000>pretty much
07:26<@planetmaker>:(
07:27<V453000>atm I have both jobs, so openttd is utterly out of the question, idk if after I have only 1 job I will find some love for it
07:27<V453000>but honestly, zero interest at the moment
07:27<V453000>I would like to finish BRIX one day though
07:28<V453000>also, nothing is sure yet :P
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>well, IMO there are two ways programmable signals could work, one would be to program an individual signal on the map, and the other would be to make a generic signal (like a template) that you can place
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>an entry signal template would then read "force red if all exit signals are red"
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>and an individually programmed signal would read "force red if signal at (X,Y) is red"
07:30<Ether_Man>Eddi|zuHause, why not like real life with connecting all signals on a track to a main controller that you can then program? Basically make it two parts. One that you can program, but can reference all signals and trains on all tracks connected to it?
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07:30<Wolf01>moin
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: that may be a possibility
07:30<Ether_Man>Because signals in real life are not just based on what other signals are reading, but also what the trains are doing
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07:31<V453000>yay discussion de-railed to real life
07:31<V453000>gg
07:31*V453000 back to factories :P
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: that basically means all signals share a program
07:31<Ether_Man>Eddi|zuHause, in essence, yes
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: but that immediately causes trouble when you want to join or split such a block
07:32<Ether_Man>But not just signals, also the trains
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: that won't happen. trains can only react to signals, they have no other way of communcication except marking their presence
07:33<V453000>trains cant communicate =(
07:33<Ether_Man>In TTD yes I know. That's what I would have liked to be improved
07:34<Ether_Man>Like, today, we have trains choosing a path based on signals. I would prefer the opposite, where signals choose a path, and trains just follow the signals :)
07:35<Ether_Man>But well, that's just me. I prefer games as realistic as possible :)
07:35*V453000 runs like hell
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: again, that is more like routing restrictions, which should be a separate feature
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14:40<argoneus>https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=Proc-Type%3A+4%2CENCRYPTED+filename%3Aid_rsa&type=Code&ref=searchresults lel
14:40<argoneus>github, everyone
14:44<peter1138>:S
14:44<peter1138>hopefully they all need a passphrase... yeah right
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15:01<peter1138>bah at amazon lightning deals that get "100% claimed" within seconds.
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15:43<peter1138>why can i not find a paperclip? :S
15:45<__ln__>install word 97
15:59<Hiddenfunstuff>did you remember to plug VGA, PS/2, sound?
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16:02<Eddi|zuHause>must have disappeared in a transdimensional fault
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16:20<peter1138>i found some paperclips
16:20<peter1138>in a tool chest, wtf?
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18:34<Wolf01>'night
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21:26<supermop>streaming a podcast and downloading a pineapple update is quite slow
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21:53<Supercheese>sounds like you need to dual track your modem mainline ;)
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22:48<Eddi|zuHause>on ISDN you could do that, use two channels to double the speed
23:01<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: so i should replace fiber connection with isdn?
23:02<supermop>here it would probably be about the same speed
23:02<supermop>the cable and fiber internet is so underwhelming
23:02<supermop>because there is only one option for each
23:03<Eddi|zuHause>that's what a monopoly will get you
23:05<supermop>duopoly is even worse
23:06<supermop>because under us law it doesnt technically count as anti-competitive behavior
23:06<supermop>or at least the fcc and courts have been hesitant to fight it
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23:18<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, the company that owns the majority of the house connections, which is the formerly state run telekom, is required by law to offer the line for any provider to use
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>and the prices are regulated
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23:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a perfect system, but it clearly is way better than the american system
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>but fibre is virtually nonexistent in germany.
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23:22<Flygon>Still more Fibre in Germany than Australia
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>are you sure? http://www.oecd.org/sti/broadband/1.10-PctFibreToTotalBroadband-2014-12.xls
23:29<Flygon>Eddi: Yes.
23:30<Flygon>Australia's got fuckall real Fibre connections
23:30<Flygon>At least Germany has decent Broadband through other methods
23:30<Flygon>Here, if you're not one of the lucky few bastards to get Fibre, or even god-forbid Cable
23:30<Flygon>You're probably on a craptacular unstable 6mbits ADSL line
23:33<Eddi|zuHause>i was on 0.3mbit ADSL until about a year ago
23:34<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe two
23:34<Flygon>Holy fuck
23:34<Flygon>How is that even physically possible?
23:35<Flygon>An ADSL line that shit should have been dropping out a megabit ago
23:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's really simple. you pay the same as for a 1mbit line, but you're only getting 1/3 the speed.
23:40<Eddi|zuHause>or technically 3/8
23:42<Flygon>Exactly what happens here
23:42<Flygon>People pay for 24mbit
23:42<Flygon>But that's UPTO 24mbit
23:42<Flygon>I am paying for 24mbit line
23:43<Eddi|zuHause>no. it wasn't like that
23:43<Flygon>But because it's a 3km long line
23:43<Flygon>I get 6mbits
23:43<Flygon>Because the laws of physics suck
23:43<Eddi|zuHause>it was explicitely sold as that speed
23:43<Flygon>And Internet planning here is abysmal
23:43*Flygon nod
23:44<Eddi|zuHause>they meanwhile upgraded to 16mbit, though, and an option to upgrade to 50mbit
23:44<Flygon>Hmm
23:44<Flygon>Sounds like what they're doing
23:44<Eddi|zuHause>but it's still all copper based, not fibre
23:44<Flygon>Is rolling extra line pairs to your house
23:44<Flygon>Which's impossible to do in Australia
23:45<Eddi|zuHause>the line to the house hasn't changed
23:45<Flygon>They don't add additional phone lines?...
23:45<Eddi|zuHause>they upgraded the distribution node
23:45<Flygon>And pair them together
23:45<Flygon>Oh, they move the node closer to your house?
23:45<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
23:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know the details
23:45<Flygon>How inefficient :(
23:46<Flygon>Still, better than what's going on here
23:49<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't change the fact that germany is a developing country compared to, like, sweden
23:49<Flygon>Germany... developing country?
23:49<Flygon>????????????
23:49<Flygon>What.
23:49<Flygon>Hahaha... dude. Germany, from an Australian perspective
23:49<Flygon>Is developed as fuck
23:50<Flygon>You got decent Internet everywhere, decent freeways, decent public transit, decent economy...
23:50<Flygon>I can understand that, internally, it might look fucking terrible
23:50<Flygon>But from an external PoV, Germany's got it all!
23:51<Eddi|zuHause>all, except fast internet.
23:51<Flygon>Haha... haa
23:51<Flygon>No, you got fast Internet :|
23:52<Flygon>Imean, option to upgrade to 50mbits?
23:52<Flygon>Doesn't fuckin' exist here man :D
23:53<Eddi|zuHause>but in sweden, you're looking hard to find a house that DOESN'T have 50mbit
23:53<Flygon>Sweden also barely has any population that isn't from Stockholm
23:54<Flygon>Having the entire country's population inside a single city helps with getting Fibre to everyone xP
23:54<Flygon>Then again...
23:54<Flygon>Australia's one of the single most urbanized countries on the planet and we still fucked that up...
---Logclosed Wed Aug 19 00:00:10 2015