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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-08-20

---Logopened Thu Aug 20 00:00:11 2015
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01:42<help>please how can I change the language on windows in openttd
01:42-!-help is now known as Guest2856
01:43<Guest2856>I have gone to the settings there was only Englih availble
01:45<Supercheese>did you install the other languages?
01:45<Supercheese>you might need to run the installer again
01:51<Guest2856>yes okay thanks
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04:28<@planetmaker>ho... orduge killed the forums :P
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05:20<Wolf01>hi hi
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06:14<Ether_Man>Anyone that has been playing with making any larger passenger services? Been toying around a bit and it's just take two towns, put 4 bus stops and a train station in each and the buses end up growing the town to silly amounts, feeding your trains for long hauls... The question is though, it does not take long for those silly numbers to be WAY more than what buses can handle. Like, it's pretty much impossible as I see it to scale a bus service that takes 10k
06:14<Ether_Man>passengers/month. And at this point, the city is too dense to make any real progress to make trains of a size that can handle that kind of traffic either. Any tips for how to handle this situation?
06:18<@planetmaker>Ether_Man, plan for the future growth, build stations in appropriate places in advance before the town occupies those. But build them such, that town growth is not reduced much
06:19<@planetmaker>Ether_Man, #openttdcoop has a few savegames where we focus on passengers and growing towns; they might interest you
06:20<@planetmaker> but also check the normal list of savegames
06:20<Ether_Man>I've tried to get their saves to work without success... Even when I can get the files that is required, it just says the save is corrupt, cannot be read, or that something failed to initialize... So I've given up on looking at any actual saves there
06:21<@planetmaker>that should not happen. Any particular savegame?
06:21<@planetmaker>you will need the (legacy) grfpack, though for some savegames
06:21<Ether_Man>All I've tried (some 10-15 different ones) all give errors
06:21<@planetmaker>only very few savegames might have issues
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06:40<V453000>Ether_Man: which game revision do you have?
06:40<V453000>getting the latest nightly is best
06:41<Ether_Man>I'm using 1.5.1 Stable
06:41<V453000>the newest games certainly wont work with that
06:41<V453000>which save did you try?
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06:43<Ether_Man>I've tried a lot from all over... Nothing in between 100 and 200 works due to INFRA Stolen Trees no longer being available so those are out straight away. And below 100 is a pain with the settings so havnt even tried those actually. Above 200 I've tried let's see... 201, 217, 231, 246, 247, 249, 257-262, 271, 290 and 299. All fail with various errors
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06:47<@planetmaker>Ether_Man, yeah, that NewGRF is a sad story... you can load those savegames with a trick: become scenario_developer and then ignore the missing NewGRF
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06:48<@planetmaker>scenario_developer is a setting which you can enable in the console of OpenTTD
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06:52<V453000>there you go
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06:53<Ether_Man>Sorry, but I prefer to follow the wishes of the dev and since he has pulled the file, I interpret that as that he does not want the file being spread anymore. Thanks for the thought though :)
06:54<V453000>the file is ancient and packed with GPL license
06:54<V453000>and if it breaks your savegames, it doesnt make any sense to not distribute it
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07:01<V453000>but yeah you can just scenario_developer the way around it
07:23<@planetmaker>Ether_Man, as it once was uploaded by the author, s/he consented to the file being distributed eternally. We only removed it to get rid of that eternal bitching when she found out that she couldn#t read
07:24<Ether_Man>planetmaker, I care less about the license as such, as I care about the wishes of the developer. The developer does not want it distributed, thus I will not be using it, even if they have it under a license that allows it.
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07:34<V453000>you are a weird person.
07:35<Ether_Man>Because I care more about what a person want now, rather than what they wanted in the past?
07:38<V453000>no, because you support something which is ultra not constructive, yet you feel like you are helping anybody with such attitude
07:39<Ether_Man>Where have I said anything about helping someone or that I support something? I support someONE, but that's not to say I'm helping that someone.
07:40<V453000>that is kind of the same :)
07:40*andythenorth likes trains
07:40<V453000>the only useful solution here is to continue distributing it, and keep the savegames not broken as they always should have been according to bananas TOC
07:41<Ether_Man>I dont consider those things to be the same at all. But whatever. You're free to consider me as weird as you like :)
07:42<V453000>well, SAC fucked us all over, by supporting it you are just blindly worshipping bullshit
07:42<V453000>no offense intended :)
07:44<V453000>if everybody behaved like her, we could just shut down bananas outright and go outside (worst possible scenario!)
07:45<peter1138>let's do it
07:46<andythenorth>forums are shut
07:46<Ether_Man>Not true, since as you point out, it was released under a license that allows it. I'm just saying that I personally do not want to use things the developer no longer wants me to, regardless if I'm actually allowed or not.
07:46<andythenorth>might as well shut bananas too
07:46<@planetmaker>forums are back, andythenorth :)
07:46<@planetmaker>all shiny-new. And looks like the old. Or something
07:47*andythenorth wants people to stop using HEQS, but they won’t :P
07:47*andythenorth wants people to stop downloading FISH, but they won’t :P
07:47<V453000>terrible people
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07:48<V453000>andythenorth: you should be offended
07:48<Wolf01>Ether_Man: so you are telling us you don't use truecrypt or derivates, mega and other softwares whose developers got tired about and "retired" them?
07:49<Ether_Man>andythenorth, if you're serious, I have no problem with removing HEQS from my install. I don't have FISH but I can certainly make sure I don't download that either.
07:49<andythenorth>don’t download FISH
07:50<Ether_Man>I do not use truecrypt or its derivates no. Mega, I am not aware of any dev saying they don't want people to use... And no, that's not about dev being tired and retiring them, but if I hear of a dev that has actively expressed their wishes that the software not be used, then I will avoid using it to the best of my abilities yes
07:51<Wolf01>Kim Dotcom itself said to not use that
07:53<Ether_Man>1. Kim Dotcom is not the developer of Mega. He was the owner and CEO. He had no relation to it at the time he made the statement in question. 2. He did not say he did not want people to use it. He said he does not trust them.
07:53<Wolf01>and also you might download music, movies and games
07:54<Ether_Man>Only when those are legally available.
07:54<Wolf01>yes yes
07:55<V453000>you arent hurting anybody by using their software
07:55<V453000>at all
07:55<V453000>nobody even needs to know
07:56<Ether_Man>I did not say that anyone was
07:56<V453000>then avoiding to do so is just wtf
07:56<peter1138>planetmaker, forums are back where?
07:56<@planetmaker>in my web browser
08:03<peter1138>he probably shouldn't've used a permanent redirect then
08:09<andythenorth>new forums
08:10<andythenorth>probably snappier
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>"you won't need to enable/disable DST twice a year" yay!
08:11<@planetmaker>sounds like a welcoming feature :P
08:13<peter1138>i don't remember changing it
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08:20<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, is that me or does the new theme have a spacing issue?
08:22<peter1138>looks alright to me
08:22<peter1138>i use the silver theme though
08:28<peter1138>hmm, 152KB patch :S
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08:33<Eddi|zuHause>this is how it looks for me:
08:35<andythenorth>cached CSS?
08:35*andythenorth uses the silver theme
08:42<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: what browser?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: konqueror. with scripts and stuff disabled
08:44<@orudge>The standard theme makes minimal use of scripts etc
08:44<@orudge>Tried a hard refresh etc?
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>if by hard refresh you mean ctrl+f5, then yes
08:45<@orudge>I don't have a copy of Konqueror handy I'm afraid, but can try to look into it at some point
08:48*andythenorth wonders if Konqueror is just webkit
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>you can switch konqueror between webkit and KHTML
08:56<@planetmaker>any objection if I just un-sticky this ancient topic?
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: make a new updated version, guiding people to the wiki, grfcodec/nmlc and bananas?
08:58<@planetmaker>Be my guest, Eddi|zuHause
08:58<@planetmaker>mind that there are also announcments etc which cover very similar stuff
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>announcements have a different target audience, i think
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: a post like this should be made by a person that is likely to keep it updated
09:00<@planetmaker>that's why it shouldn't be a post but a link to wiki at most
09:01<@planetmaker>so either it continues to bit-rot and lead people to wrong places, *you* update it, or I unsticky it ;)
09:02<@orudge>planetmaker: feel free to unsticky it
09:02<@planetmaker>a link could then go to the FAQ announcement or so
09:03<@planetmaker>which is quite bit-rotten, too :P
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09:07<@planetmaker>orudge, I also want to merge and
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09:08<@planetmaker>as it's your posting... do I have permission to edit?
09:12<supermop>what is going on
09:13<@orudge>planetmaker: yes, I'd suggest destickying Dinges's post and then you could copy the contents into my post
09:15<@planetmaker>yes, that's the plan, orudge
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09:23<@planetmaker>it always itches me when there's more than half a dozen stickies and announcement. Then no-one will mind them anymore at all :)
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: i have a feeling it is related to image sizes. because entries without images are vertically centered, but entries with images are aligned at the top
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09:43<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: hmm, odd
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27388 trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt (2015-08-20 19:45:15 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>dutch - 4 changes by TheTycoonist
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14:29<Ether_Man>Couple of questions regarding the source. 1. Is nightly going in the trunk or some other place? 2. For windows, is MinGW still an option? The wiki says it's only been tested with 1.2.x or trunk, which suggests it's been a long time since it was tested last with the current versions.
14:29<Zuu>Nightlies are daily/nightly builds of trunk.
14:30<Ether_Man>Cheers :)
14:30<Zuu>About 20 o clock at CEST or so.
14:31<Zuu>I only compile on windows using Visual Studio, but from what I know it should still work to use mingw/msys to compile on Windows.
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14:33<Ether_Man>GMT+2 would be CEDT atm. And for another 2 months :)
14:34<Ether_Man>Anyway. Thank you for the answers. Guess I'll try mingw. Personally hate vc++ >_<
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: last i heard was that mingw has trouble with 64bit architectures
14:41<Ether_Man>Wouldnt that only apply to MinGW64 in that case?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>and 20:00 CEST was a little over half an hour ago
14:41<Ether_Man>No it wasnt. CEDT was. CEST is standard time, as in, winter time... CEDT is daylight savings time, as in summer time. We're currently in summer time
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>S stands for summer
14:42<Ether_Man>?? Where I'm from, it's standard time
14:42<Zuu>CET is winter/standard time in central europe.
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>winter time is called CET
14:43<Ether_Man>Oh well. Guess we use different shorts here then :)
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen anybody use "CEDT"
14:45<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: on the other side of the ocean they have PST/PDT, EST/EDT and stuff
14:45<Ether_Man>Eddi|zuHause, top thing there.
14:46<frosch123>he, did someone really unsticky the completely useless "useful tools" thread?
14:46<Ether_Man>But yea, it seems CEST is the normal abbriv for summer
14:47<@planetmaker>frosch123, I did today. It annoyed me
14:47<@planetmaker>hi ho :)
14:47<frosch123>i think i reported that thread years ago :p
14:47<@planetmaker>last modification was ~5 years ago
14:48<frosch123>so, yay \o/
14:48<@planetmaker>and tbh, I didn't hear of 2/3 of the "useful" tools before :P
14:48<Zuu>You make the thread sound interesting. Where do I find it?
14:49<@planetmaker>in the depths of the forum :P. I added to our wiki a link to that thread for hysteric reasons, though
14:49<frosch123>^^ that's how i noticed its removal :)
14:50<@planetmaker> <-- last link
14:51<Zuu>When I googled for 'openttd useful thread', the first result was wiki page 'Rejected features' :-)
14:51<frosch123>haha :)
14:52<Zuu>2) 'requested features', 3) comparison of AIs
14:59<frosch123>why do you not get anything about the openttd-useful package?
14:59<frosch123>for compiling on windows
15:00<Zuu>frosch123: Because it has too little to do with 'thread'? Just searching for 'openttd useful' will get that package on first result.
15:01<frosch123>well, when i searched one of the features thread was at position 8, and the other i did not see :p
15:01<Zuu>Well, I was logged in, so that probably skewed my results :-)
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15:28<@Alberth>hi hi
15:36<Ether_Man>Meh... ini.cpp:84:31: error: 'fdatasync' was not declared in this scope int ret = fdatasync(fileno(f)); time to play the what dep is missing game >_<
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen that before, i think...
15:38<Ether_Man>Oh right... It's MinGW that entire lacks fdatasync... It does not have it, and will never have it... And openTTD currently just assumes that it will be there >_<
15:39<Ether_Man>So yea, MinGW cannot compile openttd currently it seems >_<
15:39<frosch123>add an #if _POSIX_SYNCHRONIZED_IO > 0 or something
15:39<frosch123>likely windows filesystem does not support such stuff
15:40<Ether_Man>It doesn't. Hence why MinGW doesnt support it. It's not needed for windows because windows does this for us without programs having to tell it to
15:43<@Rubidium>weird... old msys/mingw compiles that just fine, just like msys2/mingw64 (although there're some issues compiling on msys2/mingw64 out-of-the-box)
15:43<Ether_Man>But hmm... That entire snippet should only be used if #ifdef WITH_FDATASYNC, which, as far as I can see, isnt being set :/
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>there's a related discussion in here somewhere:
15:50<Ether_Man>Meh. Cant find where it sets that... I'll just disable the If entirely instead as a temporary thing at least >_<
15:52<@Alberth>probably configure
15:53<Ether_Man>Doesnt seem like it :/
15:53<@Alberth>19:# define WITH_FDATASYNC
15:54<@Alberth>so it seems :)
15:54<frosch123>"On POSIX systems on which fdatasync() is available, _POSIX_SYNCHRONIZED_IO is defined in <unistd.h> to a value greater than 0." <- from the manpage
15:54<frosch123>so, should we use that instead?
15:56<@planetmaker>hm... :)
15:57<@Alberth>we seem to check for >= specific posix version , or >= specific xopen version
15:57<+glx>I never had this problem
15:57<frosch123> <- no idea what that would break :p
15:59<@planetmaker>try :P
15:59<+glx>and compile farm works too
16:00<@planetmaker>well, the CF uses MSVC not, mingw
16:00<+glx>win9x build uses mingw
16:03<@Alberth>64 bit?
16:04<@Alberth>hmm apparently it does
16:04<frosch123>Ether_Man: so, does above diff work for you?
16:04<Ether_Man>frosch123, it compiles. Will soon know if it results in a working install :)
16:06<Ether_Man>Yay. It does :)
16:09<@Alberth>I don't understand why we have it, surely closing the file descriptor would be enough?
16:10<@Alberth>or even fflush()
16:11<@Rubidium>Alberth: nope, that's the thing... those are not enough
16:11<frosch123>yeah, no idea either, it even uses a rename afterwards for atomic replacement
16:11<@Alberth>it only helps if the system crashes, by the looks of it?
16:13<@Rubidium>I'm not sure about the exact reasons anymore, but there was some reason why it's done this way
16:13<@Alberth>so there exist silly systems that don't write out written data after closing the file?
16:14<@Alberth>ugh :(
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>the probability that the system crashes is decidedly nonzero
16:15<Ether_Man>Alberth, posix systems do not
16:15<+glx>windows is not posix
16:15<frosch123>@commit 15686
16:15<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r15686 trunk/src/ini.cpp (2009-03-12 15:22:17 +0100 )
16:15<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Codechange: make it a bit harder for crashes to trash your config file.
16:15<frosch123>that added it
16:15<frosch123>so, yeah, it's about something breaking
16:16<+glx>and it never caused problem for mingw
16:16<@Alberth>Ether_Man: I am quite sure that data you give to the OS will end up at the disk
16:16<Ether_Man>And for good reasons actually. If a program crashes, you want to know that the data you have is actually correct and that it wasnt trashed due to crashing halfway through a file save.
16:16<@Alberth>Ether_Man: that's the point, it is done after writing, I guess
16:17<@Alberth>so nothing "half way"
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>Ether_Man: i don't quite follow that argument
16:17<@Alberth>and it can equally well crash a long time just before
16:18<frosch123>he, that commit also added the "rename"
16:18<Ether_Man>Alberth, that's just it though. If you just close the handle, you havnt actually given the data over to the OS yet. You just closed the handle
16:18<@Alberth>Ether_Man: wrong
16:18<frosch123>hmm, maybe it is about disk full or something weird?
16:18<frosch123>can fclose fail?
16:18<Ether_Man>frosch123, yes
16:19<Ether_Man>If the handle is currently busy, it will fail
16:19<@Alberth>"The  fclose()  function  flushes  the  stream  pointed to by stream (writing any buffered output data using  fflush(3)) and closes the underlying file descriptor."
16:19<frosch123>fdatasync returns an error code, which ottd checks after the fclose
16:20<@Alberth>if fclose fails, you're dead already
16:20<Ether_Man>Alberth, Yep. And again, if the program crashes after issuing that, the handle closes and the remaining data is never turned over to the OS. The buffered output, is buffered in app memory space. It's never actually given to the OS until it's time to write it
16:21<@Alberth>Ether_Man: indeed, but that can happen any time while writing, a fdata sync at the end doesn't fix that
16:22<@Alberth>if fclose doesn't do what it is supposed to do, the implementation is broken, imho
16:22<Ether_Man>Alberth, oh certainly not no. fdatasync has the exact same problem. The only difference really is that you can basically sync to a "backup", and then only if the sync results in a success, do you consider that to have been a successful write and can delete or ignore the old
16:23<@Alberth>just bloody silly
16:23<+glx>Ether_Man: anyway something should be wrong in your mingw setup
16:24<Ether_Man>glx, no. Mingw does not have, nor has it ever had support for fsync or fdatasync.
16:24<@Rubidium>you are aware that fclose does not guaranteed anything being flushed to disk? It just guarantees that the buffers of libc are flushed.
16:24<+glx>Ether_Man: and it's not a problem as it should not go there
16:24<@Alberth>yes, so it's in the OS
16:24<@Alberth>Rubidium: and thus eventually at the disk
16:25<Ether_Man>glx, except it does. And according to the source, should be. "(defined(_POSIX_C_SOURCE) && _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 199309L) || (defined(_XOPEN_SOURCE) && _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500)" is true for a mingw install. Which then sets with_fdatasync
16:26<@Alberth>Ether_Man: I really doubt those numbers are by accident
16:26<+glx>doesn't happen for my msys/mingw nor my msys2/mingw-w64
16:26<frosch123>those numbers are from the manpage as well :)
16:26<@Alberth>no doubt someone figured out that's when fdatasync should exist
16:26<@Rubidium>Feature Test Macro Requirements for glibc (see feature_test_macros(7)):
16:26<frosch123>they refer to glibc
16:26<@Rubidium>fdatasync(): _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 199309L || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500
16:26<Ether_Man>Alberth, yep. But the thing is, for mingw, it NEVER exists.
16:27<frosch123>but the same page mentions _POSIX_SYNCHRONIZED_IO further below
16:27<@Alberth>Ether_Man: then mingw is wrong in claiming the number
16:27<+glx>and I think I should have noticed a compile failure since 2009
16:27<frosch123>so, i think the man page is ambiguous
16:27<@Alberth>but euhm , you've got two installs here that do work
16:28<Ether_Man>Alberth, no it's not. It is using that number. That version specifically says that it does not garantee that that function exists. It gives a specific handle, as frosch123 mentions for when that function does exist.
16:29<@Alberth>so explain how two other install do work?
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16:32<Ether_Man>There's literally thousands of explanations for why... Without further information on their specific environments, it would be impossible to say which one. The fact is however that as the source is written, it is correct that it will fail on mingw
16:33<@Rubidium>the manpage says, if those those defines have a particular value the function exists
16:33<Ether_Man>Because "(defined(_POSIX_C_SOURCE) && _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 199309L) || (defined(_XOPEN_SOURCE) && _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500)" is indeed true on mingw
16:33<+glx>it's not
16:33<Ether_Man>Yes it is.
16:34<+glx>not for my two different mingw, not for the compile farm, not for Rubidium's
16:34<@Rubidium>then *your* MinGW (whatever version it is), does say it complies to a particular POSIX/XOPEN version without actually complying
16:34<@Rubidium>ergo, *your* MinGW environment is wrong
16:35<Ether_Man>Rubidium, it IS complying... As frosch123 points out, it's supposed to give you an ADDITIONAL def IF that function exists. It's OPTIONAL...
16:35<+glx>no trace for POSIX/XOPEN in "echo | g++ -dM -E -" for me
16:35<@Rubidium>Ether_Man: then what define do we need to check?
16:36<frosch123>the man page lists two different availability conditions
16:36<frosch123>one at the top, one at the bottom
16:36<frosch123>that diff checks both :p
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16:38<@Rubidium>in any case, there are a few (unknown versions) of MinGW that have a different behaviour than either glx or I have
16:39<Ether_Man>I'm using official mingw. From the exact archive listed on the wiki, as well as the latest. Both have the exact same thing.
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16:40<@Rubidium>frosch123: have fun committing ;)
16:41<frosch123>it's defined on my system
16:41<frosch123>noone will notice if it is not defined somewhere :p
16:41<frosch123>it's a case of "noone notices if it breaks" :)
16:42<@Rubidium>until their OpenTTD crashes and the config gets trashed
16:43<frosch123>openttd crahsing is not enough
16:43<frosch123>the whole computer has to crash
16:44<frosch123>there is a rename after an fclose, so the data has left openttd at that point
16:44<frosch123>so, you really have to crash during the write-delay of the disk cache
16:44<frosch123>*crash the computer
16:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27389 trunk/src/ini.cpp (2015-08-20 22:47:45 +0200 )
16:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: There are two different availability conditions for fdatasync in the manpage. Use them both, since at least on some MinGW versions one is not enough.
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 21 00:00:13 2015