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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-01

---Logopened Tue Sep 01 00:00:28 2015
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03:31<andythenorth>@seen danmack
03:31<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 14 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
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04:10*andythenorth hmms
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04:43<Wolf01> wetrails!
04:51<@planetmaker>lol, Wolf01 :)
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04:59<Eddi|zuHause>now V453000 must stop because it's too realistic :p
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05:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you have me convinced on the problem with the quarry / clay pit entrance
05:07<andythenorth>what I don’t have yet is a solution :P
05:07<andythenorth>that will have to wait
05:13*andythenorth bbl
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06:06<Wolf01>lol, i remember i used it once, but i wanted true type font and not bitmap because of oblique edges
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07:30<Wolf01>upgrading to win10, bbl
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07:37<andythenorth>is cat?
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07:39<Pikka>bonjour herr mop
07:40<andythenorth>so eh
07:40*andythenorth is puzzled
07:41<andythenorth>I agree with the problem
07:41<andythenorth>dunno how to solve it
07:42<@planetmaker>what's the problem there, andythenorth ?
07:43<andythenorth>the root cause is industry intro dates
07:43<andythenorth>and the side effects of those in different economies
07:43<andythenorth>i.e. broken chains
07:43<@planetmaker>ahm... yeah, that's difficult
07:43<andythenorth>there are multiple options
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07:44<@planetmaker>introduce primaries starting in the bronze age. Same goes for ports ;)
07:45<@planetmaker>thus if the secondaries are not there, there are still ports ;)
07:45<@planetmaker>alternatively it needs an analysis of how the chains look like, say, after each introduction of stuff
07:46<@planetmaker>basically it could be two different economies, just attached to eachother in a temporal fashion
07:46<@planetmaker>you now have sufficiently many industry slots available ;)
07:47<@planetmaker>the introduction of the modern chains could be one-by-one. But all new industries belonging to it at the same time. Not historically accurate. But better for gameplay and hardly noticed
07:48<@planetmaker>which somewhat reminds me... you asked me days ago whether I could look at *something*. What was that?
07:48<andythenorth>cannot remember :D
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07:48<@planetmaker>it was something FIRS-ish
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: didn't you already have such an iron works?
07:49<@planetmaker>are they gone meanwhile?
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>then i don't understand the question
07:50*planetmaker hasn't really played for some time an early years game
07:50<andythenorth>Basic economy
07:50<andythenorth>deliberately limited number of industry types
07:50<andythenorth>adding more types to this economy defies the purpose :)
07:50<andythenorth>but the economy is broken
07:50<@planetmaker>true :)
07:50<andythenorth>for before 1850 or so
07:51<@planetmaker>well, then the basic economy is not suitable for very early starts
07:51<@planetmaker>thus it reduces to a documentation problem :P
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>so you need an "intro_date: economy==basic?0:1850" switch?
07:52<@planetmaker>or that ^
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>might replace it with an actual switch, for easier adding/removing of economies
07:54<andythenorth>yeah fiddling the date is possible, and is one of the options
07:54<andythenorth>I don’t like to change industries too much between economies, it confuses players imo
07:54<andythenorth>but already they change cargos in some cases
07:55<@planetmaker>yes. Keeping the industries about the same between economies makes sense. Even when not done strictly in all cases
07:55<@planetmaker>though introduction dates are not a major thing really
07:58<andythenorth>might be the simplest solution
08:00<andythenorth>I thought of an industry that accepts iron ore and makes goods
08:00<andythenorth>but eh
08:00<andythenorth>that might be _too_ basic
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>what problem should that solve?
08:02<andythenorth>the Metal Works intro year is tied to the Iron Works intro year
08:02<andythenorth>but the Iron Works is not available in Temperate Basic
08:03<andythenorth>so there is a tertiary with no source of input cargo
08:03<andythenorth>meanwhile the Steel Mill can’t be introduced earlier if all intro dates are the same between economies, also realism
08:03<andythenorth>(the Steel Mill has to come later than the Iron Works)
08:03<andythenorth>this is all daft tbh
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08:04<andythenorth>see, it drove pikka away :P
08:04<andythenorth>consolidating to a single ‘basic’ metal-working industry would avoid the daftness
08:04<andythenorth>but it’s not a good solution
08:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: this was the thing I wanted you to look at :D
08:14<andythenorth>yes :)
08:15*andythenorth proposes an ‘advanced setting’ flag for Action 14 :P
08:17<@planetmaker>what kind?
08:17<@planetmaker>you mean like suggested setting value?
08:17<@planetmaker>it's an interesting idea if OpenTTD got an additional setting state: values as now and 'newgrf suggested'
08:17<andythenorth>my proposal is to be able to offer more newgrf parameter settings, but hide some away
08:18<andythenorth>the benefit is that newgrf authors can be much lazier about design :P
08:18<andythenorth>without making the initial parameter interface overwhelming :P
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like they are only shown when newgrf developer is active?
08:18<andythenorth>or via progressive disclosure (interface toggle) or such
08:20<@planetmaker>ah, ok the 3 states of settings like in the settings window (basic, adv. and expert)?
08:20<@planetmaker>That would make sense, yes, to have that action14 addition to allow for hidden parameters
08:20<@planetmaker>and even much easier than what I thought initially you mean :)
08:21<andythenorth>yes that
08:21<andythenorth>I don’t have a specific implementation in mind
08:22<@planetmaker>Me neither. But it's just a GUI toggle on some parameters
08:23<@planetmaker>thus mostly some GUI work
08:23<@planetmaker>and analysis of an additional new flag for action14 where it defaults to 'basic' in case of its absence
08:25<NGC3982>Or morning.
08:32*andythenorth is still suspicious of parameters on newgrfs
08:32<andythenorth>but in some cases, there is no obvious default
08:32<andythenorth>or no obviously *always better* default
08:34<NGC3982>You never know, it might reach critical mass in your face.
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08:36<Wolf01>here i am, with windows ten
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>so you should be Wolf10 now?
08:46<__ln__>hey, i was about to say that
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09:01<Wolf01>it's time to try if games get a performance improvement with this update... lets play... ottd
09:06<Wolf01>mmmh, my icons on the start screen are gone, i need to find again all the stuff
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that is "normal" for windows to move everything around with every version
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10:21<TELK>Hi, uploading new stuff at bananas still not works.
10:22<@planetmaker>TELK, did you try to use musa?
10:22<TELK>sorry what is musa?
10:22<@planetmaker>our bananas upload tool:
10:23<TELK>I'll try it, thxs
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10:48<TELK>Thanks planetmaker, musa works.
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11:34<@planetmaker>so musa works :)
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12:43*andythenorth FIRS-ing
12:46<@Alberth>hi hi
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13:07<frosch123>imagine you were one of those who maintain flash :p
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13:11<Eddi|zuHause>you'd quit now and say "what a relief..."
13:12<@Alberth>ha, like the next piece of software is going to be any better :p
13:12<frosch123>it will have a better image for some while
13:12<frosch123>but people have been beating on flash for 5 years and more?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>well, like microsoft did with discarding internet explorer
13:23<@peter1138>flash? what?
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14:19<frosch123>were you part of the initial development in your youth?
14:20<frosch123>and then went on to join the development of ie6?
14:20<frosch123>would be an awesome cv :p
14:24<frosch123>hmm, it's actually tuesday
14:24<@Alberth>yep, and september 1st
14:24<frosch123>that i know :)
14:25<@Alberth>ah, good :)
14:25<frosch123>thus, release time
14:25<@Alberth>oh? :o
14:25<frosch123>but the debian changelog entry contains a week day
14:25<@Alberth>ah :)
14:25<frosch123>which i had some difficulties with :p
14:27<andythenorth>why didn’t we limit the game to 1850-2050 :P
14:27<frosch123>anyway, i still do not know who reads the release news posts, but we had only half the testers in double the rc time
14:27<andythenorth>all problems would be solved
14:28<frosch123>andythenorth: enable window 10's gui zoom, that hides both the toolbar and the statusbar
14:28<frosch123>no date, problem solved
14:28<frosch123>they added that feature specifically for you, to convert you from max
14:28<@Alberth>limit all industries to 1850?
14:29<@Alberth>I mean they get 200 years of play, and still not enough??
14:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27392 /branches/1.5 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2015-09-01 20:29:29 +0200 )
14:29<@DorpsGek>[1.5] -Update: Documentation
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes. force-quit the game in 2050... that invalidates all the coop and maglev-only styles :p
14:30<frosch123>Alberth: if you increase the purchase costs to "raise" difficulty, you have to run the game on fast forward while afk, to get money for the next thing
14:31<@Alberth>oh, for longer play
14:31<@Alberth>well, don't play hard setting when you cannot handle it :)
14:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27393 /tags/1.5.2 (10 files in 4 dirs) (2015-09-01 20:31:52 +0200 )
14:31<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.5.2
14:41<andythenorth>your arm is broken?
14:41<andythenorth>or you fell over?
14:42<andythenorth>or that is some other appendage?
14:42<+glx>or he's fishing
14:43<frosch123>maybe he rotated left
14:43<frosch123>without carry
14:43<andythenorth>overflowed to a negative?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe he fell over
14:44<andythenorth>he’s drunk
14:44<frosch123>more than usual?
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14:55<_dp_>hm, so there was rc after all... I saw it in svn but didn't take in seriously since there was no announcement.
15:02-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.5.2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | if this channel is really spammy
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16:15<@planetmaker>hm, so we missed the announcement, eh? :S
16:15<frosch123>you have a chance this time :p
16:16<@planetmaker>making a release when?
16:16<frosch123>it's on the page for an hour :p
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16:38<andythenorth>industry intro year means adding a switch to a cb chain
16:38<andythenorth>can’t use the existing property handling :P
16:40*andythenorth considers removing all intro years
16:40<andythenorth>it causes no end of problems
16:41<andythenorth>I should switch it to use probability instead
16:42<andythenorth>probability is static for industry lifetime, or varies
16:42<andythenorth>hmm could vary on a continuous gradient
16:42<andythenorth>this is an Eddi shaped idea
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16:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I want to vary industry construction probability by year. Should I do it sawtooth (step changes), or interpolating between values (smooth gradient), or something else?
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16:59<frosch123>andythenorth: step changes are good enough. industries do not spawn suddenly, so there is already one step of smoothing
16:59<andythenorth>I wonder about pathological results at map gen
16:59<andythenorth>start in 1869, get one set of industries, start in 1870 get a very different set
16:59<andythenorth>dunno, might be overthinking it
17:00<frosch123>call it a feature :)
17:01<andythenorth>simpler calculation this way
17:01<andythenorth>Iron Horse etc already have the same code for vehicle livery variations
17:02<andythenorth>also bedtime :)
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause>err.... sure...
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 02 00:00:29 2015