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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-04

---Logopened Fri Sep 04 00:00:32 2015
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07:47<Wolf01>hi hi
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11:16<andythenorth>quiet channel is quiet
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12:52<andythenorth>lo Alberth, Terkhen
12:52<@Alberth>hi hi
12:53<@Alberth>python thingie is working?
12:53<andythenorth>all fine thanks :)
12:53<V453000> (:
12:56<andythenorth>debugging in production :)
12:56*andythenorth has definitely _never_ done that
12:57<andythenorth>and nothing definitely _ever_ went wrong
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13:01<frosch123>moin :)
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13:50<Wolf01>mmmh i might want to try factorio multiplayer
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14:01<andythenorth>@seen danmack
14:01<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 44 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
14:01<V453000>it is fun if you set enemy bases to very big Wolf01 :P
14:02<Wolf01>i already have problems with single nests of biters
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14:10<andythenorth>I didn’t like the biters element :P
14:10<frosch123>i disabled them :p
14:11<andythenorth>“Don’t mix the themes"
14:11<andythenorth>Lego reference :P
14:11<andythenorth>if I wanted to play Doom, I’d play Doom
14:12<Wolf01>or starcraft
14:12<frosch123>he, as child i did not care about lego colours :) while i built advanced shapes and stuff, i always picked the first piece that fit with whatever colour
14:13<Wolf01>oh we have a rainbow builder here
14:13<frosch123>that still sounds "sorted", not "random" :p
14:13<andythenorth>standard programmer
14:13<andythenorth>structure over aesthetics :P
14:14<andythenorth>hmm no, unfair
14:14<andythenorth>aesthetics of structure > aesthetics of presentation
14:16<frosch123>i never got the 16+ rating for lego, i used them at age of 10, and stopped with lego mostly at 14
14:17<andythenorth>slow internet is slow
14:19<@peter1138>i dunno, i've met kids these days who've no idea what to do with lego
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14:21<Wolf01>that's because they start to play wit their parents' tablets and phones before even touch a "solid" toy
14:22<andythenorth>my 5 year old won’t build it
14:22<andythenorth>he thinks I build it and he plays with it
14:22<andythenorth>actually that’s not true :P
14:22<Wolf01>you build and you play
14:22<andythenorth>but it’s a cool story about the ipad generation :P
14:23<V453000>I like the biters because they make expansion a lot harder, thus saving resources is a lot more necessary
14:26<frosch123>currently i woinder how to balance raw materials during map generation
14:27<frosch123>it annoys me when i skip iron deposits with the rail track because i have to get to some oil deposit further away :p
14:27<frosch123>just because i do not need more iron
14:27<frosch123>resp. i need oil more first :p
14:28<V453000>I think that is part of the fun of the game
14:28<V453000>adapt your factory to what you need
14:28<V453000>like, one game I have not enough oil, one game not enough iron
14:28<frosch123>yeah, you can somewhat do that with coal
14:28<frosch123>coal is flexible, you can use it a lot, or replace it with other things
14:29<frosch123>but iron and copper is quite fixed
14:29<andythenorth>a brake block fell off my bike
14:29<andythenorth>this is not correct
14:29<V453000>well you can make productivity chips and put them there, produce less ammo/ choose military based on resources
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14:30<frosch123>i put prod modules into everything :p
14:30<V453000>for example when I had super low amount of oil, speed modules are priority, and getting military upgrades for bullets is great - because upgraded bullet turrets can work instead of laser, but laser needs batteries (hence oil)
14:30<V453000>well yeah but it takes a long time before you have an army of lvl3 modules
14:30<frosch123>no biters, so no lv3 :p
14:31<V453000>lately I was also approaching "how to actually fight HUGE alien bases"
14:31<V453000>you need to commit massively otherwise they just wreck you
14:31<frosch123>well, that's why i stopped playing with biters
14:32<V453000>I like it so far :)
14:32<frosch123>at least when i played them last, it was always "you have to hit them hard and kill them in one go", there was no "slow and consistent" way to kill them
14:33<frosch123>there was always a fixed amount of biters at bases of a certain size, either you killed them and the base before they respawned, or you achieved nothing
14:33<V453000>well sure :)
14:33<V453000>but laser turret siege = win
14:33<frosch123>yes, but that got boring
14:34<V453000>sniping buildings from the tank is a win
14:34<frosch123>i wondered whether there should be indirect ways to slow their respawning
14:34<V453000>throwing grenades at enemies, too
14:34<frosch123>or maybe there are meanwhile :p
14:34<V453000>hm :)
14:34<frosch123>like cutting their water supplies somewhere :p
14:35<frosch123>i don't like the binary result of a fight: "base gone" vs. "nothing changed"
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14:45<TartarusMkII>Hi again friends, I wanted to run a question by y'all. If I have both busses and trams, what is the point of adding trams to roadways? What is something a tram can do that a RV cannt?..
14:50<TartarusMkII>So it's just for more variety?
14:50<TartarusMkII>no functional differences?
14:50<TartarusMkII>though I guess trams are all articulated, so they need to drive through
14:51<frosch123>can i reverse the question?
14:51<andythenorth>depends on choices by the newgrf author
14:51<frosch123>trams have are better in all ways to rv. what is something a rv can do that a tram cannot? :p
14:51<andythenorth>one ‘realism’ inspired option is that trams are much higher density
14:52<frosch123>which is funnily not true at all, judging by the trams i have used in my life
14:53<frosch123>i guess realistically trams are somewhat an outdated technology without upgrades
14:53<frosch123>that's possibly why i like them being strong in ottd :p
14:55<andythenorth>in theory a modern tram is insanely high density, mostly standing
14:55<andythenorth>although in the UK we have double-decker buses
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15:01<TartarusMkII>I am trying to learn how to make my economy work in 1850 with carriages
15:01<TartarusMkII>it's very difficult for me to overcome the cost of running the carriages..
15:01<TartarusMkII>and then Ithe loan interest piles up.
15:01<TartarusMkII>I have to think about how to do it differently, as these RVs have a much lower speed. I dunno. hm. What do you guys think
15:02<andythenorth>don’t bother
15:02<frosch123>i do not know of anyone who started in 1800 with inflation enabled, and who survived :p
15:02<frosch123>the inflation in ottd assumes some technology progress. if there is none, it breaks you
15:03*andythenorth targets 1870 start or so
15:05<TartarusMkII>oh I see, makes sense.
15:05<TartarusMkII>I'll try 1870 XD
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15:08*andythenorth can cheat :P
15:08*andythenorth makes his own RV set
15:14<Wolf01>pffff i placed a "storage chest" and the armageddon happened
15:15<frosch123>no, armageddon is when you pick up a full chest while your inventory is full :)
15:15<frosch123>it's the worst, i only did it once
15:15<Wolf01>you wouldn't be able to do that
15:15<frosch123>in the version i did it, i splatters all the contents onto a 12x12 area or something
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15:16<Wolf01>now i'm converting my distribution network to drones, to get rid of the conveyor belts
15:17<frosch123>why would you do that? :o
15:17<frosch123>do you also delete all trains in ottd to replace them with planes?
15:17<Wolf01>yes, sometimes i do
15:18<frosch123>fair enough :)
15:18<Wolf01>all the advanced stuff is handled by drones, there is only the basic production (pipes, ammunition, batteries, inserters) which are fed by conveyor belts
15:19<andythenorth>conveyor belts are weird
15:19*andythenorth couldn’t understand them
15:20<frosch123>f-belts = ottd-trains, f-train = ottd-ships, f-bots = ottd-planes, f-pipes = ottd-rv
15:20<V453000>drones cost shitload of power and are kind of lame :/
15:21<V453000>for blueprints/deconstruction/repairing/refilling ammo they are amazing
15:21<frosch123>main subject, insane capacity, stupid, local-transport only
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15:27<Wolf01>but i really need to learn how to play, now i'm pretty much experimenting
15:27<andythenorth>and what’s the equivalent of ottd-pipes?
15:27<andythenorth>V453000: why was it a good idea to do something about FIRS Fishing Grounds production?
15:27<Wolf01>if only we have those
15:27<andythenorth>it was a note I had, but no justification :P
15:28<Supercheese>likely because there is no justification
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15:34<andythenorth>lo Zuu
15:39<Zuu>I also got bite by factorio, but I only play it with the peace mod. I watched a youtube with biters and spilled coffe all over just from a sudden biter attack on the video. No way I try to play a game with them. :-)
15:40<Zuu>Congratz to V453000 for your new position :-)
15:41<andythenorth>what did he do? :o
15:41<Zuu>He apparently becohe thier new gfx guy alongside someone called Albert.
15:42<Zuu>It was announced they had someone on trial some week ago, and today they first posted a NUTS link as example of previous work before revealing his name. :-)
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15:47<Zuu>andythenorth: <-- here is the announcement.
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15:48*andythenorth read it
15:48<andythenorth>ha ha
15:48<andythenorth>I can’t think of any game more suited to V453000
15:49<andythenorth>and it definitely needs some graphical love
15:58<Zuu>I though some on the GS -> NewGRF stuff I made. That GS simply gave an initiative to fullfill goals to upgrade production. Which is kind of what FIRS is already.
15:59<Zuu>Not sure if it add so much gameplay really compared to FIRS.
16:02<andythenorth>I think the interface is valid
16:02<andythenorth>the specific implementation might not add much
16:03<andythenorth>adjusting production at a single industry is not much more or less than newgrf could (even by reading town registers if needed)
16:03<andythenorth>adjusting production at a whole class of industry, or all industries in a region...
16:03<andythenorth>is impossible for newgrf
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16:05<Zuu>True. Though I bet if added, the first to adopt it would be a City Town Builder script. :-p
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16:07<Zuu>The tech tree idea however was a bit cool.
16:08<Zuu>Now that everyone plays factorio, we could transport some cargo type to some industry to unlock technology. :-)
16:08<TartarusMkII> vs what ahve I done wrong? WHo said they started at 1870? what do you DO in 1870 lol
16:08<TartarusMkII>i feel sad I cant balance stuff like this, I don't even have more than one RV pack so I don't know why they are so imbalanced
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16:10<andythenorth>because they’re so slow
16:10<Zuu>Well automobile is cool right, so who care if horses is better? ;-)
16:10<TartarusMkII>>< but why is it so.. weird..
16:11<Zuu>Also reliability is randomized in every game so what makes sense in one game may not make sense in another.
16:11<Zuu>In your game the bus has slightly better reliability.
16:12<TartarusMkII>it is? I ddn't know. Huh.
16:12<TartarusMkII>I am just stuck now because I don't know how to make use of my technology to overcome the operating costs and the loan interest
16:13<Zuu>You can always use the money cheat if you find no other way. :-)
16:13<TartarusMkII>I dun wunnuh =c
16:14<andythenorth>use a train :)
16:14<Zuu>Otherwise look on income/distance graph. Also keep in mind passengers pay in both ways while other cargo usually only in one, unless you can find a place where the same vehicle can serve two set of industries.
16:16*andythenorth should finish Road Hog
16:16<Zuu>For industries full load orders generally make sense. For passengers I find it makes more sense to use a timetable to balance travel time for cargo in the vehicle with station rating.
16:16<TartarusMkII>im looking for a income/distance graph but can't find one? =s also I do try to start my games with passengers
16:16<Zuu>Station rating basically goes up when a vehicle is waiting. And decrease when there is none.
16:17<TartarusMkII>oo and I've never tried to use time tables, how do those go?
16:17<frosch123>TartarusMkII: income does not depend on distance
16:17<frosch123>but on average speed including loading time
16:17<Zuu>In the game there is a graph button. If you hold your mouse button down it will open a menu. And among the graphs there is one that show how cargo payment varies by time.
16:18<frosch123>longer distance with no signal waiting times reduce the percentage of the loading time
16:19<andythenorth>eh, removing date limits from player industry funding
16:19<andythenorth>bad idea
16:19*andythenorth bounces it
16:19<TartarusMkII>I don't have income and distance, just income, cargo pay rates, etc
16:20<Zuu>TartarusMkII: In this case a partial timetable use is enough. Just set eg. 10 days wait time on stations and you are ready to go. Or you can collect travel times for one roundtrip and then increase the times for stops and then use Ctrl+click on the set date button to distribute your vehicles.
16:20<Sylf>distance is always linear, i thought
16:21<Zuu>The full timetable will help against vehicle bunching. Partial helps for making buses/trucks load for at least eg. 5 or 10 days.
16:22<Zuu>TartarusMkII: There is IIRC no graph that shows ideal transport distance, but you can for example deduce that coal pays off better than grain in general.
16:22<TartarusMkII>oh i c i c
16:22*andythenorth to bed
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16:24<Zuu>And you can also see which cargoes that are more sensitive to slow delivery (less payment) and which ones that care less about delivery time. That being said. The game has bonuses for new vehicles etc. in other places. (station rating)
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16:29<TartarusMkII>I still wish I coul see other people play, I feel like I am missing so much
16:29<TartarusMkII>like when I have lots of busses in a city, and they are all overcrowded, to me I feel like their time table hardly matters
16:29<TartarusMkII>as long as they don't spend tons of time pointlessly circling around the city to get ot the next stop
16:38<TartarusMkII>like, even from 1870 should I try to make an inter city train with some horse carriage feeders? or is it just not.. good
16:38<TartarusMkII>because even at 1870 I can make an inter city bus tht is permanently overburdened even with my full 200k
16:47<Wolf01> when you forget the building tools active and click on the map
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 05 00:00:33 2015