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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-08

---Logopened Tue Sep 08 00:00:37 2015
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07:23<andythenorth>is cat?
07:24<V453000>is
07:24<andythenorth>acers
07:27<V453000>how is your pit?
07:28<andythenorth>awesomes
07:28<andythenorth>I completely deleted all the things that some players would like about it
07:29<andythenorth>e.g. it no longer looks like you can load vehicles at one specific building
07:29<V453000>XD
07:29<V453000>but what will The Community say about that?
07:29<andythenorth>maybe they’ll whine about that and overlook the other changes
07:29<andythenorth>honey pot
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07:31<V453000>:D
07:31<V453000>what are the other changes?
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07:33<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7445/clay_pit_improved_10.png
07:34<andythenorth>removed the funky TTD-style fence in favour of base set fence
07:34<andythenorth>removed the pit entrance
07:34<andythenorth>removed the front loader
07:34<andythenorth>removed the loading chutes from the big silo
07:34<V453000>doesnt look like farm yet
07:34<V453000>-> works
07:35<andythenorth>this is one of the early industries I drew and it was trying to be too realistic
07:35<andythenorth>like a scale model
07:35<andythenorth>not worky
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'd still like it more if there was no gap, and the buildings just alongside one edge of the industry
07:46<andythenorth>yeah you wouldn’t :)
07:46<andythenorth>there’s a horrible graphical glitch then
07:47<andythenorth>the ground tiles for the buildings make a hard edge against the grass tiles
07:47<andythenorth>looks weird
07:47*andythenorth tried it, because convincing argument was made
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>how is that different from now?
07:48<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7436/clay_pit_no_gap.png
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, you should make the clay go up to the buildings
07:48<V453000>DRAW stuff to connect it ? XD
07:49<V453000>ye
07:49<andythenorth>for three different layouts
07:49<andythenorth>for two different industries that use same sprites, recoloured manually
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and ideally the crane would be on the same side as the buildings
07:51<andythenorth>I’ll consider it for v3
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>also, the buildings should only stick out 1 row out of the pit
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>possibly overlapping the two areas
07:59<andythenorth>ha ha
07:59<andythenorth>basically, to make these sprites good
07:59<andythenorth>it would be best to start with a blank spritesheet :)
08:01<V453000>I think if you ponder less and do more, it will get better results immediately :P
08:04<andythenorth>thing is
08:04<andythenorth>quarries are stupid to feature in TTD scale
08:04<andythenorth>there’s no way it’s ever going to work
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08:30<@peter1138>what is TTD scale?
08:36<andythenorth>‘variable’
08:36<andythenorth>which idiot started talking about scale?
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09:01<Supercheese>Why does it have fences around the entire perimeter? Where are the workers/vehicles supposed to go in/out?
09:01<Supercheese>Well, in the _10 version, that is
09:04<andythenorth>you don’t need to worry about that
09:04<andythenorth>it’s not important :)
09:04<V453000>IS
09:04<V453000>CHANGE IMMUDETELY
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09:05<andythenorth>first must change OpenTTD
09:06<andythenorth>vehicles now enter industries
09:06<andythenorth>Supercheese: the fence actually contains multiple gates
09:06<andythenorth>but I’ve drawn them small, you can only see them on retina screens
09:06<andythenorth>or in your imagination :P
09:06<V453000>xd
09:06<Supercheese>Haha
09:07<andythenorth>shall I add a small truck?
09:08<andythenorth>I feel that pikka’s small generic truck sprite is not used enough :P
09:08<andythenorth>like the crawler cranes also :P
09:10<andythenorth>actually the truck is hardly used at all in FIRS :)
09:10*andythenorth mis-remembered
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09:40<andythenorth>eh https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7446/clay_pit_improved_11.png
09:40<andythenorth>V453000: the pit looks bare
09:40<andythenorth>shall I delete 1 row of tiles so it’s 4x4?
09:40<andythenorth>or add a slug?
09:40<andythenorth>or what?
09:40<andythenorth>giant yellow duck?
09:48<@planetmaker>a truck to haul it away
09:49<andythenorth>there was some reason I deleted the dump trucks
09:49<andythenorth>I forget why
09:49<@planetmaker>4x4 would suffice for size. Or 3x5
09:50<@planetmaker>it would be nice to have a version for sloped terrain where the sand is taken from the slope. But placement... so pro'ly not worth the effort
09:51<andythenorth>one day I might tackle it
09:51<andythenorth>the water thing annoys me
09:51<andythenorth>but it’s a lot of work to make good
09:57<@planetmaker>yes...
09:57<@planetmaker>open pit mines are big hassle to get right and interesting
09:57<andythenorth>I might do it just for bloody-mindedness
09:57<andythenorth>but not while I have such little time for newgrfs :P
09:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: 3x5? o_O https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7447/clay_pit_improved_12.png
09:59<andythenorth>obviously needs tweaks
10:01<andythenorth>will also improve placement opportunities further
10:02<@planetmaker>with a bit less green border: sure, why not? :)
10:02*andythenorth thinks it’s better with less water
10:02<@planetmaker>looks quite good, I think. it doesn't miss anything compared to the 4x5 version
10:14<andythenorth>eh, not bad https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7448/clay_pit_improved_13.png
10:14*andythenorth fixed the edges
10:15*andythenorth is happier with this overall
10:15<andythenorth>I should have left an arbitrary island in the water, with seagulls circling :P
10:16<@planetmaker>yup :D
10:17<@planetmaker>or just a quacking duck ;)
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10:32<@peter1138>what is it, a water mine?
10:32<andythenorth>yes but no but
10:33<@planetmaker>it explodes upon contact with the crane
10:35<@peter1138>water's probably a bit too blue for a clay pit
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10:37<@peter1138>also there's loads of it
10:39<andythenorth>if someone would patch “newgrf can specify terrain shape” I would bin the water
10:39<andythenorth>and draw a quarry shape
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10:41<andythenorth>hmm
10:41<andythenorth>I could make the small hut a pump
10:41<andythenorth>and it could have animated ‘breakdown'
10:41<andythenorth>smoke
10:41<andythenorth>then the pit fills up with water :P
10:41<andythenorth>then drains again
10:42<@peter1138>not clean water though
10:42<andythenorth>https://environmentagency.blog.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/84/2014/04/White-Water-Lagoon-e1398442114215.jpg
10:42<andythenorth>?
10:43<andythenorth>also, water cycle?
10:43<andythenorth>:P
10:43<andythenorth>water cycle is broken for me anyway, maybe I should ignore it
10:44<@peter1138>palette animation
10:44<@peter1138>no reason for that to not work
10:45<andythenorth>because Apple
10:45<andythenorth>kills performance horribly
10:45<andythenorth>although “because Apple” is all you needed :P
10:47<@peter1138>what?
10:48<andythenorth>if I enable ‘full animation’ OpenTTD chugs horribly
10:48<andythenorth>previous advice was to buy a new computer
10:48<@peter1138>it slows down fast forward a bit
10:48<@peter1138>but otherwise should be fine
10:48<@peter1138>alright, a lot
10:50<andythenorth>and black squares all over the screen
10:50<@peter1138>no that's not a feature of palette animation
10:50<andythenorth>unrelated
10:50<andythenorth>caused by toggling it on
10:50<andythenorth>but not off
10:51<andythenorth>anyway I can’t buy a new computer, so I turned off full animation :P
10:55<andythenorth>512x512 map, 1 train, the animation of track building cost (moving upwards, classic 80s style) takes about 4s with full animation off
10:55<andythenorth>and about 6s with full animation on
10:56<andythenorth>even allowing that my counting is crap
10:58*andythenorth back to muddy waters
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11:45<andythenorth>green clay pit water? o_O http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/49/37/493781_3fdb6cfe.jpg
11:46<V453000>ponder less :)
11:46<Sylf>that might look too weird in 8bit graphics
11:47<andythenorth>V453000: I’m done pitting tbh
11:47<andythenorth>is finisheds
11:47<andythenorth>new things to do
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12:00<andythenorth>mines mines mines
12:00<andythenorth>are a pain the arse
12:03<@Alberth>there is grass underneath the clay :p
12:04<andythenorth>I need to replace base set sprites at multiple other mines
12:04<andythenorth>Gold Mine, Iron Ore Mine, Copper Mine, Bauxite Mine
12:04<andythenorth>open pit mines really don’t work well in OpenTTD
12:05<andythenorth>and deep mines will all look the same :P
12:07<andythenorth>maybe I just need some colour schemes
12:07<@Alberth>wouldn't an open mine have big heaps of top soil?
12:07<@Alberth>or at least one or two of them?
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12:08<Wolf01>o/
12:08<@Alberth>hihi W
12:08<andythenorth>open mines have big spoil heaps
12:08<andythenorth>and a massive pit :P
12:08<@Alberth>open gold mine is probably very big due to low concentration of the good stuff(tm)
12:09<andythenorth>just make it a gold pan on a river :P
12:09<andythenorth>1 tile
12:09<@Alberth>but you need a washing installation, a small lake for the water, and bulldozers
12:09<andythenorth>hmm
12:09<andythenorth>Gold Rush
12:09<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Rush_(TV_series)
12:10<andythenorth>this is certainly not going to fit :P http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bVKa6kRBap0/UiPk8ITbp7I/AAAAAAAAE8Q/RUaJQvpTqqM/s1600/gold_mine.jpg
12:12<@Alberth>looks like ECS sand pit :)
12:13*andythenorth wonders
12:13<andythenorth>we have those rock tiles on base terrain
12:13<andythenorth>repaint those to have no gaps
12:13<andythenorth>let the mine just follow the terrain
12:13<andythenorth>??
12:13<andythenorth>won’t have nice shaped edges and such mind
12:19<@Alberth>could be confusing if some have no rocks, and I want to put a track or depot there?
12:20<@Alberth>ie it's nice if it's clear where the industry starts and ends
12:21<@Alberth>there are a number of industries that are literally invisible in transparent mode, which is highly annoying if you're planning a track through them
12:24<andythenorth>+1
12:24<andythenorth>if you notice that in FIRS, let me know
12:24<andythenorth>I can draw ground tiles
12:27<Sylf>i need fix that in YETI too
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12:59<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7449/clay_pit_improved_14.png
12:59<andythenorth>ha
12:59<andythenorth>too much bulldozer? o_O
13:02<@Rubidium>rather weird scale for the yellow one
13:02<andythenorth>“is a big one"
13:02<andythenorth>:P
13:03*andythenorth changes it
13:07<andythenorth>hmm there’s an even bigger one in HEQS
13:22<Supercheese>are all these newly redesigned industries going to be fenced in all-round?
13:22<Supercheese>or perhaps the images at the docs are not indicative of that
13:23<andythenorth>mostly they’re fenced in
13:23<andythenorth>mostly they’ve been fenced in for a while
13:23<@Alberth>they're trying to keep all the bad transport companies out :)
13:24<Supercheese>yeah nevermind the docs are seemingly not accurate
13:24*Supercheese hasn't actually tried the newest versions of FIRS
13:24<andythenorth>v2 docs here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
13:24<andythenorth>mostly up to date, ish
13:24<andythenorth>making docs images is tedious, so they’re not 100% accurate
13:25<Supercheese>yeah, I was misinterpreting them
13:25<andythenorth>boring smaller dozer :P https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7450/clay_pit_improved_15.png
13:26<andythenorth>eh, at least I can animate it :)
13:26<andythenorth>back and forth
13:26<andythenorth>forth and back
13:26<Supercheese>spin around
13:26<Supercheese>do a dance
13:26<@Alberth>up side down
13:31<andythenorth>should I just release v2?
13:32<andythenorth>beta?
13:32<@Alberth>any reason not to?
13:32<andythenorth>isn’t done :D
13:32<@Alberth>ha :)
13:32<andythenorth>I dunno, there’s always v3
13:33<@Alberth>yep, lots of unused numbers available until infinity
13:34<andythenorth>368 commits since 1.4.4
13:34<andythenorth>commits != features but eh
13:34<andythenorth>it’s a few
13:34<@Alberth>refactoring improvements is also worthwhile
13:36<@planetmaker>hi hi
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13:44<andythenorth>also for v2 I wanted an alternative supplies mechanic
13:45<andythenorth>but eh, too much right now
13:45<andythenorth>btw Supercheese, the fences auto-magically disappear when you build station adjacent ;)
13:46<Supercheese>excellent
13:48<andythenorth>bye
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18:13<dlhero>any advice on how to improve this http://i.imgur.com/fkw95qh.jpg ?
18:13<dlhero>:d
18:13<dlhero><--- really really bad at hubs
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18:14<Sylf>are they all path signals?
18:14<dlhero>yeah
18:14<dlhero>haven't figure out how to use entry/exit to provide prio
18:15<Sylf>also, what's wrong with it?
18:15<Sylf>what needs to be improved?
18:16<dlhero>can't figure out how to do non-blocking in/out from terminus station on the "main-line"
18:17<Sylf>the screen shot alone doesnt tell much
18:18<Sylf>one thing is, with path signals, you do NOT want signals after splits
18:19<dlhero>i think i figured out when on the "entry bridges" of a station
18:19<dlhero>path signals before/after the bridge, broke load balancing
18:20<dlhero>so 1 path signal before the split, one after each entry bridge
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18:23<Wolf01><Sylf> one thing is, you do NOT want signals after splits <- fixed
18:24<dlhero>https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:Tunnel_Flow.png
18:24<Sylf>but you do want signals aftet splits if you use block signals
18:26<Sylf>so, dont confuse those two types of signals
18:27<dlhero>no I just use path signals, with rare exceptions
18:27<Sylf>all of coop's articles assume you have good understandings of path signals, and block (pre-)signals
18:27<dlhero>I understand PBS but the rest not that much
18:27<Sylf>so if you only use path signals, dont copy stuff from coop sites
18:28<dlhero>well I tried to understand the SLH example where one line is prioritized but I don't get how it works
18:34<dlhero>for example, I do understand this particular case: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:Mergers_42innerOuter.png
18:34<dlhero>however I cannot understand why block signals are used after the exit signals
18:35<Sylf>the outer 2 lines are given priority over inner lines in that image
18:36<Sylf>also, that structure is built specifically for trains that are 3 tiles long
18:36<dlhero>yeah, I deduced that.
18:37<dlhero>you need longer diagonal lines for longer lines
18:37<dlhero>(I think)
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18:55<supermop>hello
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19:22<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 09 00:00:39 2015