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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-10

---Logopened Thu Sep 10 00:00:21 2015
---Daychanged Thu Sep 10 2015
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02:48<andythenorth>ho
02:48<andythenorth>conveyors will cover all sins :P
02:48<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7461/clay_pit_improved_23.png
02:48<andythenorth>once finished
02:49<__ln__>there's a huge grey arrow floating in the sky
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02:51<andythenorth>fuck, must be a bug :o
02:59<@peter1138>you're a bug
03:04<andythenorth>harsh
03:04*andythenorth can’t handle sledging before the second cup of coffee :(
03:11<@planetmaker>moin
03:12<@planetmaker>I like that version
03:16<andythenorth>it will work ok
03:17<andythenorth>but I’ll do it better
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05:09<andythenorth>planetmaker: o_O https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7462/clay_pit_improved_24.png
05:12<@planetmaker>:)
05:12<@planetmaker>the 2nd small hut on the pit border is really good
05:13<@planetmaker>or rather 2nd and 3rd with belt
05:13<@planetmaker>a definitive win overall over previous iterations
05:14<andythenorth>I am going to swap the positions of the big silo / crusher buildings
05:14<andythenorth>and make one of them smaller
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05:17*andythenorth has drawn and deleted a lot of nice pixels for this industry
05:18<Supercheese>Wow, but this latest one is smashingly good
05:19<Supercheese>I love the way CHIPS dirt stations can integrate
05:19<Supercheese>since the dirt now matches more readily
05:29<andythenorth>CHIPS has been the other moving part
05:30<andythenorth>I haven’t shown that in the other 23 ‘improved’ screenshots :P
05:30<andythenorth>but I need it to work with CHIPS platforms :P
05:39<andythenorth>“this improvement brought to you by…”
05:40<andythenorth> 5 second FIRS compiles
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05:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i still have 2 problems with that:
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>1) the conveyor belt should end at the buildings in all layouts
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>2) the buildings on the SW end stick out like a sore thumb, they should be rotated
06:00<andythenorth>this approach requires sprites to change between layouts
06:00<andythenorth>sprites don’t do that
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>just use different tiles for the rotations?
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>one layout uses tiles ABC and the second BCD?
06:02*andythenorth could run the conveyor on all sides
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>drop the layout with buildings on SE side, and have the end of the conveyor belt in a place where it is next to the buldings on SW and NW side
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. move the NW buildings one tile to the corner
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>and have the SW buildings on that same corner
06:07<andythenorth>drop the SE or SW?
06:07<andythenorth>the SW is the one that looks bad
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i implied that the SW one gets rotated buildings to look better
06:09<andythenorth>nah
06:09<andythenorth>that would need new sprites
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>the old one had rotated buildings?
06:09<andythenorth>I’m not convinced that layout with the sticking out SW buildings adds more placement options
06:09<andythenorth>and it looks bad
06:10<andythenorth>and variety is pointless if it looks bad
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06:29*andythenorth deletes that one
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07:21<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7464/clay_pit_improved_25.png
07:21<andythenorth>the second conveyor conveniently located by the animated bulldozer
07:21<andythenorth>so I’m calling that serendipity
07:22<@planetmaker>:)
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>the fence disappears when a station is placed?
07:23<andythenorth>yes
07:24<andythenorth>that’s a FIRS feature, which is perhaps a mis-feature at this specific industry
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>what about truck stops?
07:24<andythenorth>yes
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably alright
07:24<@planetmaker>makes sense, I think
07:25<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7465/clay_pit_improved_26.png
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>now one small detail left: what's the reason for the different ground tiles between buildings and pit? why not all-dirt or all-grass?
07:26<andythenorth>pit looks weird with dirt edges
07:27<andythenorth>I have been wondering about using a part-grass terrain tile
07:27<andythenorth>but tbh
07:27<andythenorth>then I could delete the conveyors
07:27<andythenorth>they only exist to cover the gap
07:27<andythenorth>I tried buildings on grass, looks stupid
07:28<andythenorth>I tried pit on mud tiles, looks stupid
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>keep the conveyors, they look good
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>although the back conveyor looks a bit odd starting in the water, maybe move it back a few pixels so it starts on the sand
07:31<andythenorth>it’s making a weird angle with the pile
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07:31<V453000>this is quite awesome andy
07:32<andythenorth>is ’awesome’ a synonym for ‘massively over-engineered’?
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i mean start on the NE beach, away from the pile
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07:32<andythenorth>(13MB) https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7466/clay_pit_with_conveyors.mov
07:33<V453000>would be great to see some movement on the belts
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07:34<andythenorth>probably in v3
07:34<andythenorth>can be done
07:34<andythenorth>just alternate pixels
07:34<Wolf01>hihi
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the crane needs to go up closed, and down open
07:34<andythenorth>for realisms yes
07:34<andythenorth>for not having to draw more sprites, no
07:35<andythenorth>it reverses the sequence currently
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>i think you have skewed optimization goals :p
07:35<andythenorth>also I tried drawing the bucket closed, and it looked like a blob
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>and you need this start/stop animation thing
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07:35<Eddi|zuHause>permanent animation is annoying
07:36<andythenorth>yes, but eh
07:36<andythenorth>more interestingly, I need to replace the base set sprites for bauxite mine, copper mine, diamond mine and iron ore mine
07:36<andythenorth>which is challenging
07:36<@planetmaker>you don't need to replace the sprites but just invent the industries anew. Much easier :P
07:36<andythenorth>replace / draw anew
07:37<andythenorth>improving the opengfx sprites would be the easy route :)
07:37<andythenorth>but the iron ore mine is daft
07:37<andythenorth>deep mines all, or more bloody open pits?
07:39<andythenorth>Dan’s mock-up for Bauxite https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7154/Bauxite_mine1.png
07:40<Wolf01>whoa
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07:49<andythenorth>eh, also there is a time window for boosting secondary production by combining input cargos
07:49<andythenorth>FIRS v1 has it as 30 days
07:49<andythenorth>FIRS v2 I set it to 90 days, because I prefer the play style
07:49<@planetmaker>wow, that bauxite mine does look quite nice
07:50<andythenorth>is it validly a parameter, or will it just confuse players?
07:50<Wolf01>the clay pit with conveyors look really nice, and i agree with eddi, you need start/stop animation
07:50<@planetmaker>90 days seems nicer... making it a parameter... it's a difficulty setting of sorts. Depends on the hassle you want to go for and how much it is to make it a parameter, I think
07:51<andythenorth>I think the code is easy, but explaining it in action 14 text is harder
07:51<andythenorth>if people want more difficulty they can use SPI
07:51<andythenorth>or ECS
07:51<andythenorth>or it can be a parameter in v3
07:54*andythenorth wonders which forum user will find out that is in fact 90 days, not three months
07:54<andythenorth>and they’ll do it by exhaustive testing, not reading the source :P
07:54<andythenorth>still, nice game they play :)
08:00<@planetmaker>:)
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10:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: the major problem with bauxite pit is the floor of the pit
10:36<andythenorth>making it not weird
10:36<andythenorth>would it be repeating tiles, because that’s quite TTD-ish?
10:36<andythenorth>or would it be one huge drawn sprite?
10:36<andythenorth>sprite / piece of art with no repetition /s
10:37<@planetmaker>could be both. TTD seems go for the latter, one huge sprite
10:37<andythenorth>for mines yes
10:37<@planetmaker>could be several multi-tile sprites which can be re-arranged, as a kind of middle ground, though
10:37<andythenorth>I have been wondering about making a smaller pit, but repeating it
10:37<andythenorth>connected to a processor by conveyors or such
10:38<andythenorth>dunno about trucks, I always think they should be moving
10:38<@planetmaker>also, just to warn you: we'll have probably very soon a devzone downtime for maintenance (aka asap). Thus might go down somewhen for short time
10:38<andythenorth>ho ok :)
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10:41<andythenorth>http://media.wirtgen-group.com/media/06_ciber/news_and_pressreleases/2012_bauxite_para/Bauxite_Para_02_880x0.png
10:41<andythenorth>not much to see there :P
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10:47<andythenorth>hmm
10:47<andythenorth>also that mockup needs a 5x7 layout
10:48<andythenorth>hard to place
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10:48<andythenorth>lo Alberth
10:48<@Alberth>hihi
10:49<@Alberth>your fight with the pits is done?
10:49<andythenorth>for now
10:51<@Alberth>ie "normal state" :)
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10:54*andythenorth has to fight more industries
10:54<andythenorth>but eh, maybe a v2 beta first
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11:02<@Alberth>getting some more feedback would be good
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12:22<@peter1138>that's easy, i just turn the gain up too much
12:23<@Alberth>gaining lots of noise then :)
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12:42<andythenorth>Alberth: eints doesn’t handle branches other than default? o_O
12:42<andythenorth>[this would make sense]
12:43<^Spike^>saw eints and thought something broke but that doesn't seem to be the case :D
12:44<@Alberth>eints itself doesn't know about branches
12:44<@Alberth>it just gets files
12:44<@Alberth>maybe the push & pull scripts do something, but not sure
12:45<@Alberth>I didn't write those scripts
12:45<andythenorth>I’m wondering how to get translations in place for FIRS 2.0.0
12:45<andythenorth>possibly I do an alpha, then a beta in the branch
12:45<andythenorth>or so
12:45<andythenorth>then merge to master for an RC
12:45<andythenorth>and let translators work then, before final release
12:46<@Alberth>move 2.0 to default?
12:47<@Alberth>but really, I have no idea what the push & pull scripts do here
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13:47<andythenorth>eh come on compile farm
13:47<andythenorth>go faster
13:47<@Alberth>:)
13:47<andythenorth>I want $someone to proof-read the changelog
13:48*andythenorth has to be patient :P
13:48<@Alberth>and a faster compile farm helps there? :)
13:49<andythenorth>waiting for the html docs to be built
13:49<andythenorth>reading the raw source is uglier
13:50<andythenorth>wow compile farm builds FIRS slowly :o
13:50<@Alberth>depending on the layout, that can be ugly indeed
13:51<@Alberth>it's so good, it takes longer to appreciate all the worl
13:51<@Alberth>*work
13:51<andythenorth>“6 min 53 sec and counting”
13:51<@Alberth>:)
13:51<@Alberth>eints is clearly just crap, it needs only 18 seconds or so :)
13:52*andythenorth got bored waiting
13:52<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/docs_templates/changelog.pt
13:52<@Alberth>:)
13:52<@Alberth>I'll have a look
13:52<andythenorth>thanks :)
13:53*andythenorth wonders if jenkins is stuck
13:56<@Alberth>probably V is keeping it busy :p
13:58<@Alberth>initial uppercase for all the items?
14:00<@Alberth>full firs economy is not default any more?
14:02<andythenorth>I think it is
14:02*andythenorth checks
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14:03<andythenorth>Full Firs is still default :)
14:03<andythenorth>the order of that changelog is dubious
14:03<@Alberth>quite :)
14:03<frosch123>hola hi hoi
14:03<andythenorth>ah the pretty version http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
14:03<andythenorth>ho hi frosch123
14:03<@Alberth>I'd shuffle the entries so the same kinds of entries are near each other
14:03<@Alberth>hi hi frosch123
14:03<andythenorth>+1
14:06<andythenorth>so in the final analysis, is the Quarry now better?
14:06<andythenorth>current: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7464/clay_pit_improved_25.png
14:06<andythenorth>previous: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/industries/quarry.png
14:07<andythenorth>wouldn’t be the first time the changed version is worse than the original :)
14:09<V453000>I love how the edge is not uniform width andythenorth
14:10<V453000>really sells that it is jut wet/mud edge
14:10<@Alberth>current is better, imho
14:10<@Alberth>the green grass looks more in place with the buildings in some way
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14:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxk6oyuuy
14:19<andythenorth>embarassingly, your English is better than mine :|
14:21<andythenorth>I’ll add that patch, thanks
14:22<@Alberth>ha, I had that experience with a colleague from work with Dutch, she knew all about grammar, while I just do things on feeling
14:23<@Alberth>some things are suggestions
14:24<@Alberth>mostly the "<--" things need some thinking perhaps :)
14:26<planetmaker>holla :)
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14:32*andythenorth watches Jenkins again
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14:33<@Alberth>hi hi planetmaker
14:35<Taede>ello
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14:40<andythenorth>fixed http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
14:42<frosch123>yay, christmas advertising
14:42<@Alberth>:)
14:42<andythenorth>hmm
14:42<andythenorth>Christmas FIRS
14:43<@Alberth>looks good, andy
14:44<Wolf01>\o/
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14:48<andythenorth>eh before I make a bananas mistake...
14:48<andythenorth>I have tagged FIRS 2.0.0-alpha
14:48<andythenorth>it has the same grfid as FIRS 1.x
14:48<andythenorth>I am planning to upload it to bananas, set to nightly openttd >= 27280
14:49<andythenorth>(requires increased industry limit)
14:49<andythenorth>is this a viable plan?
14:50<Wolf01>yay 453MiB of grf upgrades to download
14:51<Wolf01>i think i'll need to cleanup my install folder
14:51<Wolf01>get rid of everything and keep just the 2 or 3 grfs i really need
14:51<Wolf01>like pineapple, zbase... oh wait
14:53<@Alberth>you can safely keep everything else as well, you won't notice the difference :)
14:53<Wolf01>that was the point
14:53<andythenorth>oh
14:53<andythenorth>bananas
14:53<andythenorth>https://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/update/3644
14:54<andythenorth>is a “broken in production”
14:54<andythenorth>also the edit view
14:54<andythenorth>and ‘add new'
14:54<andythenorth>lawks
14:54-!-drac_boy [~oftc-webi@72.1.195.4] has joined #openttd
14:54<drac_boy>hi
14:55<andythenorth>Unhandled Exception
14:55<andythenorth>An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
14:55<andythenorth>there is probably a long forum thread about this, and I am late to the party?
14:55<frosch123>yup
14:55<@Alberth>not very long, but yeah
14:55<frosch123>the answer is: use musa
14:56<frosch123>Alberth: there are also like 2 fs tasks and some irc conversions :p
14:56<@Alberth>ah, it's distributed :)
14:56<drac_boy>musa?
14:57<andythenorth>ach
14:57<@Alberth>drac_boy: Python program that prepares your upload, and checks for silly mistakes and such
14:57<frosch123>drac_boy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_%28genus%29
14:57<drac_boy>ah ok alberth
14:57<andythenorth>I don’t have musa and I *do* have to make dinner :|
14:57<andythenorth>can anyone upload FIRS 2.0.0-alpha to the coop account?
14:58<andythenorth>nightly openttd >= 27280
14:59<andythenorth>hmm jenkins hasn’t built the tag yet
14:59<andythenorth>nvm
15:00<drac_boy>heh going from firs1 to firs2?
15:00<andythenorth>oh it had no changes
15:00<andythenorth>yak-shaving :P
15:02<drac_boy>so why going to 2 then? ;)
15:02<@Alberth>1 was already used
15:03<andythenorth>yair
15:03<frosch123>if there is nothing new, you have to at least use a new version number
15:03<andythenorth>1 has been done
15:03<andythenorth>1 is old news
15:03<andythenorth>this year’s number is 2
15:03<@Alberth>and 0 was silly
15:03<andythenorth>rubbish also
15:03<andythenorth>could have gone to 3
15:03<andythenorth>that would have raised the game
15:03<drac_boy>well if its 2 then what is new?
15:04<andythenorth>well if Jenkins would build it, you could read the changelog
15:04<andythenorth>online and everything
15:04<andythenorth>but you can’t
15:04<andythenorth>can you fix Jenkins?
15:05<andythenorth>drac_boy: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
15:16<drac_boy>heh https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COXPW14WsAAeArc.jpg
15:16*drac_boy would want to know how much coal is down there
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18:09<Wolf01>'night
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21:00<Eddi|zuHause>forum backup, i haven't hit that for quite a while :p
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 11 00:00:41 2015