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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-12

---Logopened Sat Sep 12 00:00:43 2015
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02:21*Supercheese has lost all of his free time to Factorio
02:21<Supercheese>poor openttd.exe, all unclicked on
02:22<Supercheese>or, well, .lnk but close enough
02:23<Supercheese>but I hear tales of new FIRS
02:23<andythenorth>is alphas
02:23<andythenorth>I tried to form a factorio addiction
02:23<andythenorth>but I just couldn’t manage it
02:23<Supercheese>Oh sweet, booze-fired power plants
02:23<Supercheese>ethanol is pretty good for burning
02:23<Supercheese>can run your car off of it
02:24<Supercheese>should have been feature, not bug
02:25<Supercheese>Gasoline Station; Accepts: Alcohol, Gasoline :P
02:31<andythenorth>this power plant fix means providing all the layouts ‘properly'
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03:28<andythenorth>maybe I should play a NARS 2 game
03:28<andythenorth>been a while
03:30<andythenorth>Pikka: is there a new NARS with no BAD FEATURES? o_O
03:50<Pikka>yes there is, 2.5
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03:52*andythenorth tries that one
03:52<andythenorth>I am trying a game with fewer of my grfs in it :P
03:52<Pikka>new as in about 10 months old
03:52<andythenorth>so I don’t have to fix them
03:52<Pikka>how rare
03:57<andythenorth>Pikka bob o_O
03:57<Pikka>how big is it? internet in this place is rubbish
03:58<andythenorth>also it has to get to Australia
03:58<Pikka>australia isn't a problem, just Stafford
03:58<Pikka>it's up to 2.
03:58<Eddi|zuHause>... i just found the screwdriver
04:09<Pikka>I see, andythenorth :)
04:10<@Alberth>2.51 :p
04:10<andythenorth>such animations :P
04:10<andythenorth>remind what the point of cdist is?
04:10<@Alberth>doing automagic transfer orders?
04:11<@Alberth>@calc 200.0 / 14
04:11<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 14.2857142857
04:11<@Alberth>hmm, can't have all 64 industries animated in 200MB :p
04:13<andythenorth>there is some reason I turned cdist off for freight
04:13<@Alberth>looks like an opportunity to smash the record set by V :)
04:13<@Alberth>supplies to long distances doesn't really work?
04:13<andythenorth>oh I remember
04:13<@Alberth>unless you set it to ignore distances
04:14<andythenorth>it’s because you have to build non-bridged networks anyway
04:14<andythenorth>so cdist is doing literally nothing useful
04:14<@Alberth>I missed that part of the course, apparently
04:14<andythenorth>separate pickup station is required for every cargo destination
04:15<andythenorth>trying to remember
04:15<@Alberth>cdist cannot move cargo after allocating?
04:15<andythenorth>ah it’s because cdist ‘wants’ to assign cargo to routes differently to where I want it to go
04:16<andythenorth>but cdist doesn’t assign cargo to routes, only next hop
04:16<andythenorth>so eh
04:16<andythenorth>it doesn’t work
04:16<andythenorth>anyway, the result of using cdist for freight is very large waiting amounts at stations, that never clear
04:16<@Alberth>right, you don't want to do what cdist says :p
04:17<andythenorth>and also some routes are starved of cargo completely
04:17<@Alberth>distance ?
04:17<@Alberth>but in general, yeah, you do have to follow what cdist decides
04:18<andythenorth>it doesn’t work
04:18<andythenorth>oh, but I think my workaround is flawed, industries only distribute to 2 highest rated pickup stations?
04:18<@Alberth>I have no trouble with it, but ymmv
04:19<@Alberth>could be
04:21*andythenorth has to remember to use transfer orders again :)
04:21<andythenorth>is it known how cdist chooses to assign cargo to next hop?
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>what else would it do?
04:23<andythenorth>what’s the criteria though?
04:23<andythenorth>if I can understand the rules, I might be able to beat it
04:23<andythenorth>currently it beats me every game I try it in
04:24<andythenorth>I can’t figure out any heuristic for defeating cdist though
04:24<Supercheese>distribution mode: manual
04:24<andythenorth>that’s just cheat mode
04:24<Supercheese>works for me eh
04:25<andythenorth>dificulty: sandbox
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand your problem with it
04:25<andythenorth>I don’t understand how to beat it
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, freight was always more of a side dish in my networks, trying to handle all the passengers trumps everything and takes all the attention
04:26<Supercheese>Sandbox mode is the best mode
04:26<Supercheese>well, for singleplayer
04:26<Supercheese>script goals are nice for MP
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>also, last time i used CDIST was probably 5 years ago
04:27<andythenorth>you can’t play script goals with cdist
04:27<andythenorth>they’re opposed
04:27<Supercheese>sure, I'm not considering cdist
04:27<Supercheese>I have it off all the time
04:28<Supercheese>dest looked much more interesting to me than dist, really
04:28<Supercheese>but I never did get around to trying YACD or whatnot
04:28<andythenorth>what YACD does for gameplay can be done with GS more or less
04:28<andythenorth>different implementation, similar effect on game
04:28<Supercheese>yeah, it does seem that way
04:28<andythenorth>YACD was very compelling though
04:29<Supercheese>someone™ should try YACD-as-GS
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's unlikely to work
04:29<andythenorth>wouldn’t work
04:29<andythenorth>Busy Bee is as close as you’ll get
04:29<andythenorth>Busy Bee with 100s of goals :P
04:30<Supercheese>I suppose so, yeah
04:32*andythenorth reads the wiki page on cdist
04:32<andythenorth>I want to know how to win against it
04:32<Supercheese>The only winning move is not to play
04:34<andythenorth>nothing there about how next hop is chosen
04:34<andythenorth>“Cargodist ... chooses destinations for the passengers involved”
04:34<andythenorth>is all
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's a flow problem. all the sources and destinations get weights on them, and inbetween there will be flows balanced
04:37*andythenorth is reading src/linkgraph
04:38<andythenorth>I am confused about whether cdist assigns destinations for a packet or not
04:38<andythenorth>I thought not
04:38<andythenorth>my assumption is that it ignore specific packets, looks only at the cargo type, and splits to next hop in some ratio between possible choices
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: imagine it like an electric network. each link is a resistor, and you have a bunch of + and -
04:39<andythenorth>“ignores” = there is no storage of any destination in packets, is my assumption
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04:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes. the packet does not store this data, because it doesn't need it. the flow has been decided way earlier
04:40<Wolf01>hi o/
04:40<andythenorth>that makes complete sense
04:41<andythenorth>so my problem resolves to ‘demand appears to be totally arbitrary when I’m playing'
04:41<andythenorth>it obviously isn’t arbitrary, but the results aren’t pleasing, and there’s no way to influence it
04:41<andythenorth>which is not a good game
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>you could try to expose the demand weights to scripts
04:42*Wolf01 is in wall.e building mode
04:43<andythenorth>by ‘not pleasing’ I mean ‘cargo builds up in vast quantities at stations, no matter what I do
04:43<andythenorth>and in OpenTTD, that is a sign that you are losing the game
04:43<andythenorth>that problem simply does not occur if each pickup station handles only one destination per cargo
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, the station window tells you which next hop is overloaded
04:44<andythenorth>to which the solution is add more vehicles
04:44<andythenorth>so more cargo is then assigned
04:44<andythenorth>it’s a losing strategy
04:45<andythenorth>* I’m not convinced that happens, it just looks like what happens
04:51<andythenorth>hmm ChangeShare and so on are where the magic happens
04:51<andythenorth>in station_cmd.cpp
04:53<andythenorth>I wonder if there’s a feedback condition something like:
04:53<andythenorth>- station has existing good service on route A-B
04:53<andythenorth>- a vehicle is added for route A-C
04:54<andythenorth>the share of flow assigned to A-C is relatively tiny
04:54<andythenorth>- the vehicle takes a long time to load and deliver
04:54<andythenorth>- the share is refreshed and continues to be calculated as tiny
04:56<andythenorth>the unwanted behaviour I see is when adding a second or third route to a high output industry where the first route is well served, then the vehicles on the second or third route load very slowly
04:59<andythenorth>wall of text :(
05:03<andythenorth>cdist no worky
05:06<@peter1138>because it's not cdest
05:12*andythenorth must to football and so on
05:12<@Alberth>cdist is slow in adapting
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05:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'm so amazed at how train fever ever so slightly fails at being enjoyable. they introduce crossings, but in the least flexible way possible, which fits almost no situation
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05:51<Supercheese>I tried train fever once, couldn't get the hang of it
05:51<Supercheese>guess I'm too used to TTD-style gameplay
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>i find it somewhat cool, but the construction is ever so annoying
05:52<Supercheese>like how I tried Locomotion and didn't like the construction method/interface
05:52<Supercheese>similar issue eh
05:52<Supercheese>Factorio on the other hand is great
05:53<frosch123>another victim :p
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>i played the demo, didn't get addicted.
05:53<Wolf01>lol, eddi, i used them a lot in front of the stations, i then discovered they added them just 4 days before i started to play the game XD
05:54<Supercheese>I hear rumors that Factorio will be going NUTS
05:54<frosch123>they are no rumors
05:54<frosch123>they are confirmed news :)
05:55<frosch123>next enemy class will be a slug
05:55<Supercheese>oh snap
05:55<Supercheese>same slugs as on the farm tiles perhaps
05:55<frosch123>(that was a rumor though :p)
05:56<frosch123>blathijs: there are absolutely no relations or overlaps between ottd community and factory employees
05:57<frosch123>just as there are absolutely no relation to opendune and freerct
05:58<blathijs>frosch123: Uh, but I just don't know what NUTS means :-)
05:58<Supercheese>could have mentioned YETI but there's no pun to be had there
05:59<frosch123>oh right, the new character model
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>puns are overrated
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>err, no they aren't, actually :p
06:00<Supercheese>well, I'll probably translate for Factorio as well, at least it has far fewer strings, but there is some challenging vocabulary
06:01<frosch123>don't confuse wires and cables :)
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not quite sure what your target audience actually is :p
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06:01<Supercheese>well, other people had translated Minecraft before I even got there
06:01<Supercheese>so clearly I am not the only one
06:01<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i haven't figured that out for ottd either
06:02<Supercheese>but it is mostly a "because I can" kind of thing, and to keep my language skills from getting rusty
06:02<frosch123>always useful in case aliens visit :)
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: aliens that have been travelling for 1000 years after listening in?
06:03<Supercheese>and, y'know, quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur
06:06<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: obviously all polytheism originates from aliens :p
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i did watch stargate
06:07<Supercheese>also there was actually a Flyspray ticket for OTTD specifically requesting a Latin translation
06:08<frosch123>ah, by eddi's best friend
06:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: there you have your audience :)
06:09<Supercheese>I haven't ever heard from the fellow about it, though :/
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>i think i have successfully suppressed that memory
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06:57<Supercheese>I prefer bluegrass
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07:23<andythenorth>in station_cmd.cpp, how can IncreaseStats() call itself?
07:23*andythenorth doesn’t understand recursive functions
07:24<andythenorth>how can / how does /s
07:26<frosch123>it doesn't call itself
07:26<frosch123>it calls an overloaded function with the same name
07:27*andythenorth wikis
07:27<andythenorth>that is...special
07:28*andythenorth tries to find the call to that
07:30<andythenorth>is there a web view of openttd src with line numbers?
07:30*andythenorth can’t find one in
07:30<andythenorth>oh, ‘blob’ :P
07:31<andythenorth>that means binary object in my world, i.e. downloadable file :P
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07:33<andythenorth>how is total_duration calculated for non-timetabled vehicles?
07:38<frosch123>cdist monitors travel times anyway
07:39<frosch123>the timetable gui also shows them
07:39<frosch123>it only means that the times are updated all the time
07:39<andythenorth>I am curious about;a=blob;f=src/linkgraph/refresh.cpp;h=02f27f40c1018b83de63b9dda3757ae2d3995ea5;hb=HEAD#l218
07:39<andythenorth>the comment
07:40<andythenorth>“Don't do that if the vehicle has been waiting for longer than the entire order list is supposed to take, though. If that is the case the total duration is probably far off and we'd greatly overestimate the capacity by increasing.”
07:40<andythenorth>the vehicle will wait for cargo
07:40<andythenorth>but if cdist calculates capacity based on the waiting time
07:40<andythenorth>and no cargo is being assigned
07:41<andythenorth>the vehicle will sit waiting for a long time
07:41<andythenorth>which is exactly what I see in my games
07:42<andythenorth>I assume there’s some initial value to avoid this, but I am missing where it is
07:44<frosch123>it tries to estimate how much a train can transport between stations per time
07:44<frosch123>for that is uses the travel time
07:44<frosch123>but, if the train is waiting for full load, the total time is longer than it would be if there was more cargo
07:44<frosch123>so, it tries to figure out how much would be transported if the vehicle would be fullloaded immediately
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07:45<frosch123>the condition about the total time is probably only a fancy way to check whether the vehicle is timetables at all, or whether it is new
07:51<andythenorth>what’s the initial value from GetTotalDuration(), for a vehicle that hasn’t run it’s full order list yet?
07:56<andythenorth>I have followed GetTravelTime() back, but am in a nest of travel_time vars being set/read
08:01<frosch123>i think it is zero
08:02<frosch123>without conditional orders it may be the sum of all order times, with unmeasured ones taken as zero
08:02<frosch123>no idea how conditional orders work, probably they don't :p
08:02<andythenorth>I found something about conditional orders and duration being ignored
08:03<andythenorth>also the cdist wiki page mentions that conditional orders are pretty much game-over because they’re undetermined in the linkgraph calculation
08:04<frosch123>i think there is some function which tries to predict them
08:04<frosch123>it assumes that stuff that is unlikely to change does not change (like vehicle age)
08:04<frosch123>and ignores stuff that is likely to change
08:05<andythenorth>I am not smart enough to understand LinkRefresher() properly, but I might just remove that guard against GetTotalDuration() and try it in a game :P
08:05<frosch123>but well, there is always a case that won't work :)
08:05<frosch123>either you micro stuff with conditional orders and timetables, or you automate things with cdist
08:06<andythenorth>I think cdist is under-tested
08:06<andythenorth>that isn’t supposed to be a big insight :P
08:06<andythenorth>seems to have had a lot of use with pax
08:06<andythenorth>but not so much with freight
08:06<frosch123>yeah, it tries to make pax transport not pointless :p
08:07<frosch123>i never liked pax, because there was no incentive to transport them anywhere
08:07<andythenorth>my guess is (no evidence, just guessing) that most players don’t use full-load with pax
08:07<frosch123>you transported them anywhere, and there were others to return
08:07<andythenorth>or only use full-load where there is an ample supply of pax anyway
08:07<andythenorth>the full-load check on LinkRefresher() would not be noticed by most people
08:09<andythenorth>hmm, did I read this wrong?
08:09<andythenorth>if (this->is_full_loading && this->vehicle->orders.list != NULL && st->index == vehicle->last_station_visited && this->vehicle->orders.list->GetTotalDuration() > (Ticks)this->vehicle->current_order_time) {
08:09<andythenorth>^ only applies if the vehicle uses timetables?
08:19<andythenorth>but if I don’t have a timetable, how is “(Ticks)this->vehicle->current_order_time” true?
08:20*andythenorth feels like “C++ for dummies” candidate :(
08:20<andythenorth>nvm, I found the answer to that
08:20<frosch123>orders have times no matter whether they are timetabled or not
08:20<frosch123>"timetabled" only means that the times are locked
08:20<frosch123>"not timetabled" means estimated from last run
08:21<andythenorth>@seen fonsinchen
08:21<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: fonsinchen was last seen in #openttd 22 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 42 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <fonsinchen> Samu, attach the msvc debugger to it, wait until it happens and check the stack trace.
08:21<frosch123>if your vehicle travels very irregulary, i.e. sometimes takes 12 months to load sometimes 1 month, then that test will fail
08:21<frosch123>there is no proper capacity estimate if you have to average it over 100 years :p
08:22<frosch123>maybe make the train shorter
08:22<andythenorth>if that test fails, capacity is increased anyway?
08:22<frosch123>so it does not load forever
08:24<andythenorth>ho, is there some way I can show the calculated capacity of each link in game?
08:24<frosch123>open the timetable gui
08:25<frosch123>check the total time, divide the total vehicle capacity by the total time
08:25<andythenorth>I was hoping for something on the cargo flow display
08:25<andythenorth>nvm :)
08:25<frosch123>it displays relative loads only
08:26<andythenorth>I’m convinced there’s a bug, or I’m stupid, or my expectations are hopelessly wrong, or all three
08:26<frosch123>i think your expectations are wrong :)
08:26<andythenorth>that leaves two other possibilities also
08:27<andythenorth>what is the expected behaviour when a pickup station is served by vehicles on 2 or 3 routes, all with full-load orders? o_O
08:27<frosch123>cdist works with estimates and predictions
08:28<frosch123>there is always a certain percentage that is wrong
08:28<frosch123>just stop looking at single stations :)
08:28<andythenorth>I’m not
08:28<frosch123>if you want to look at single stations, then disable cdist and use manual transfers :p
08:29<andythenorth>or use multiple pickup stations, one per destination
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08:36<andythenorth>eh well, I have no evidence :)
08:36<andythenorth>I had a savegame which showed this problem at all secondary industries, but it is broken :|
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08:40<TrueBrain>Going to move main website to a temporary server; expect some downtime (~10 minutes)
08:44<andythenorth>did you pause pingdom? :P
08:44<TrueBrain>owh dear, daily logrotate has to sync up
08:44<TrueBrain>lolz .. I should have thought of that earlier :D
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08:45<TrueBrain>that is an old version starting :D
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08:48<TrueBrain>okay, should all be back up and running
08:49<TrueBrain>hmm, content server is not restarting ..
08:49<TrueBrain>there we go
08:49<TrueBrain>anyone with IPv6 online? Would love to know if that is operational :)
08:51<@Alberth>TrueBrain: ssh is operational
08:51<TrueBrain>tnx, but different server :)
08:51<TrueBrain>www and ottd_content is what I would love to know :)
08:51<@Alberth>main page works
08:52<TrueBrain>IPv6 logo is there?
08:52*andythenorth tries cdist for freight again, with link graph calculation frequencies set to shortest possible
08:52<TrueBrain>I have issues pinging outwards from the machine on IPv6, but .. that can have so many reasons :P
08:56<@Alberth>could download Better vehicle names newgrf from the web, is that what you want to know?
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09:17<andythenorth>what are ‘Station: planned’ and ‘Amount: planned’ for?
09:18<@Alberth>being useless?
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09:20<andythenorth>useless / redundant /s ? o_O
09:23<@Alberth>I wouldn't know, quite likely that fonso didn't consider them useless or redundant
09:23<@Alberth>it's just that I didn't find a use for it so far
09:23<andythenorth>the values for both are the same
09:23<andythenorth>planned is somewhat useful, it indicates the flow ratios
09:24<@Alberth>I only check actual waiting cargo
09:24<@Alberth>if there is too much, stuff must be done
09:28<andythenorth>but what? o_O
09:28*andythenorth back to the game ;)
09:29<andythenorth>BB keeping me busy
09:34<@Alberth>add trains, remove trains, mostly
09:35<@Alberth>move trains from one destination to another, sometimes expanding tracks
09:41*andythenorth wins another goal
09:47<andythenorth>and another
09:47<andythenorth>Busy Bee stands no chance
09:47<andythenorth>I’ll beat it easily
09:47<andythenorth>when do I win? o_O
09:51<@Alberth>you do, all the time :)
09:53<andythenorth>why does Squid cripple the speed of larger ships on rivers?
09:53<andythenorth>seems daft
10:00<frosch123>andythenorth: i think one is only cargo from that station, while the other is also with transfers from other
10:00<frosch123>so, for pure loading stations they are the same
10:00<andythenorth>ho ok
10:02<andythenorth>too much alcohol at this station
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10:06<andythenorth>OpenTTD: still fun after so many years :P
10:06<@Alberth>power plant may need some :)
10:07<andythenorth>I fixed that :P
10:08<@Alberth>I liked the idea, clearly alcohol would burn quite well :p
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10:32<andythenorth>delivering supplies to these quarries will ruin my nice stable network
10:36<@Alberth>as designed by one A. the North iirc :)
10:37<@Alberth>I tend to avoid those until bored enough with the normal expansion of the network
10:38<andythenorth>in FIRS 2, the base production is higher, so less need for them
10:39<andythenorth>I’m delivering some now because I am short of coal mines and need the extra production :P
10:40<andythenorth>ha ha BB is repeating goals again :)
10:43<@Alberth>at the start I considered that feasible; if you make the request high enough, you had to do something to avoid the time limit
10:43<@Alberth>but now we don't have a time limit any more, so it's never going to work
10:49<andythenorth>no time limit? o_O
10:50*andythenorth misunderstands :)
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10:54<@Alberth>you do have a time limit, but it's years
10:54<@Alberth>and it starts again after each delivery
10:54<@Alberth>so you can do things as slow as you like, unless "slow" implies years :)
10:57<andythenorth>it’s a winning feature imo
10:58<andythenorth>the repeating of goals I already won…less so :)
11:02<@Alberth>the idea was to make you add more incoming cargo
11:03<@Alberth>but perhaps it needs a new form of measuring
11:03<@Alberth>ie rate rather than amount
11:03<andythenorth>because there’s already a route set up, I win easily when the goal repeats :)
11:03<andythenorth>so I don’t do anything new
11:03<andythenorth>do we keep the cargo monitor around for won goals?
11:04*andythenorth likes the rate idea somewhat
11:04<@Alberth>currently we don't
11:04<andythenorth>I think BB could offer a range of goal types and still be fun
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11:12<supermop>yo andythenorth
11:12<supermop>neat firs update
11:15<supermop>rare to see such a bit of work come out in the summer
11:16<supermop>i guess maybe summer is technically over already
11:16<supermop>still hot here though
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11:16<andythenorth>September in the UK?
11:16<andythenorth>hot here is 15°
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11:19<supermop>80 and humid here in new york
11:19<supermop>so 30 for you
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13:22<fonsinchen>I'm here, sometimes ...
13:25<fonsinchen>Seems this is the one time that andythenorth is not in #openttd :/
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there's any point in teaching him cargodist, anyway :p
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>in other news, the train fever economy is somewhat terrible... you can only ever service one chain at a time, as soon as you service more, one will starve the other
13:29*fonsinchen stops reading the lengthy backlog
13:30<fonsinchen>Alberth: frosch123: The "planned" modes are useful because they tell you what cargodist wants to send over a link, exactly the projections and predictions you've discussed earlier.
13:31<fonsinchen>"by station" and "by amount" are just different ways of displaying that information
13:33<@Alberth>Thanks for the information, but tbh I don't care about those numbers, I only use the currently waiting cargo for deciding what to do
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27396 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2015-09-12 19:45:16 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latin - 17 changes by Supercheese
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14:56<Supercheese>Factorio needs a Bananas-like content distribution system
14:56<frosch123>yes, and it needs to not crash to console if one mod is incompatible :p
14:57<frosch123>but more importantly, it needs a cargo chain view :)
14:57<Supercheese>oh good heavens above
14:57<frosch123>and a smallmap legend with resource types and highlighting
14:57<Supercheese> I just tried to shift+space to pause a Youtube video about Factorio -_-
15:04<Wolf01>i use the "alt" mode all the time, it's easy to get lost on that game
15:05<frosch123>"alt" is weird
15:05<frosch123>i want it switched on in the viewport, and off in the smallmap
15:05<frosch123>the smallmap is only red if on, which i don't consider that useful :)
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15:28<planetmaker>blathijs, heffer Ammler new versions of NML and OpenGFX. Mostly bug-fix to have a deterministic sorting of languages
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20:23<Wolf01>mmh night time
20:23<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 13 00:00:44 2015