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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-14

---Logopened Mon Sep 14 00:00:45 2015
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03:15<andythenorth>Pikka hello bob
03:16<V453000>yooooo (:
03:18<andythenorth>such FEATURES
03:20<V453000>WHERE IZ THEM
03:22<andythenorth>EVERYWHERE
03:22<andythenorth>mostly FIRS and Road Hog
03:22<andythenorth>also NARS 2
03:23<V453000>what new in firs 2?
03:23<andythenorth>less shit
03:24<andythenorth>still not good
03:24<andythenorth>but not as shit as before
03:24<V453000>:D
03:24<V453000>specifically?
03:24<andythenorth>what, I am your automated changelog here? o_O
03:24<andythenorth>fixed primary industries
03:24<V453000>yes! :D
03:25<andythenorth>clustering + production amounts fixed
03:25<andythenorth>moar better sprites for some industries
03:25<andythenorth>Power Plant!
03:25<V453000>nice
03:25<V453000>should have a look then
03:25<andythenorth>play the game
03:25<andythenorth>it’s fun
03:25<V453000>no thanks :P
03:25<andythenorth>even better if you use other people’s grfs
03:26<andythenorth>I think apart from Redditers, there’s only me left playing tbh
03:26<andythenorth>everyone else who hadn’t already quit now has
03:28<V453000>coop is quite active lately I think :)
03:30<V453000>wtf firs2 isnt loaded on coop yet :) they were talking about loading it yesterda
03:30<V453000>y
03:31<V453000>ah I guess new FIRS doesnt work with stable :)
03:31<andythenorth>eh dunno, it needs some rev, I forget which
03:32<V453000>the quarry si super nice now :) with the pipes and belts and shit
03:33<V453000>the only thing I am a bit wtf about is the belt at the back, it looks like it comes from the top of the heap
03:33<andythenorth>agreed
03:33<andythenorth>I should redraw the heap a bit
03:33<andythenorth>the belt is from behind it
03:33<andythenorth>looks weird
03:33<V453000>yeah I understand the intention
03:34<V453000>perhaps jsut move the conveyor belt
03:34<andythenorth>maybe
03:34<V453000>heap is fine
03:34<V453000>shortening the horizontal part of the belt would be good I guess
03:35<V453000>power plant has no new grafx :(
03:35<andythenorth>nah
03:35<andythenorth>but maybe in future
03:35<V453000>wtf is it for anyway XD
03:35<andythenorth>train set purposes
03:36<V453000>especially if you can get ES from coal
03:36<V453000>how are train sets relative to power plant?
03:36<andythenorth>train set, as in ‘toy trains'
03:36<andythenorth>it’s mostly an eye candy, no-gameplay-purpose thing
03:36<V453000>._.
03:37<andythenorth>it only makes sense with some GS like Busy Bee
03:37<V453000>== it doesnt make sense? :P
03:37<andythenorth>ha
03:38<andythenorth>I thought about making it do something
03:38<andythenorth>but then I cba
03:38<andythenorth>‘Feature: 3 more pointless industries'
03:38<V453000>if you are spending cargo on something that cant produce ES opposed to on something that can, it is very wtf
03:39<V453000>XD
03:39<andythenorth>yes
03:39<andythenorth>but ES is less important now
03:39<andythenorth>FIRS got a bit more sandbox-ish
03:39<V453000>how come?
03:39<andythenorth>base production is higher at most primaries
03:39<V453000>hm
03:39<andythenorth>or has higher range for the randomiser at game start anyway
03:39<andythenorth>also ES from Ports etc
03:40<V453000>right
03:40<andythenorth>although…in my current game I badly need ES
03:40<V453000>yeti ftw. :P
03:40<andythenorth>and some Zeppelins to move them around
03:40<andythenorth>moar Zellepins
03:40<andythenorth>AV9 is missing Zellepins
03:41<V453000>wat
03:41<V453000>Pikka clearly removed too much :D
03:42*andythenorth must to work and such
03:50<Supercheese>Removing zeppelins? Heresy! :P
04:02<andythenorth>tbh, they’re too slow and silly
04:02<andythenorth>so eh
04:04<V453000>I like them
04:06<Supercheese>They're excellent for delivering supplies in early games
04:06<Supercheese>as only the 1x1 helipad is required and at a plane speed factor of 1/1 they are not slow at all
04:07<Supercheese>80mph as the crow flies beats other methods of transport until the mid-1930s or so
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05:25<Wolf01>o/
05:44<__ln__>ö/
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05:50<Xaroth|Work>__ln__: you have something weird floating over your head
05:50<__ln__>must be the antennas
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06:38<Pikka>silly zellepins
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06:59<andythenorth>silly Pikka :)
07:00<andythenorth>so I could just de-compile NARS 2.5.1 and change costs myself...
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08:55<wito>Why is founding towns so expensive?
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08:56<Flygon>Stamp Duty
08:56<alluke>because buildings roads and infrastructure cost like shit
08:57<alluke>unless you build a slum
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08:58<wito>True.
08:58<wito>But even so, funding a new town costs on the order of a hundred times as much as funding new buildings in an existing town.
08:58<wito>And those seem like -pretty- similar activities.
08:59<wito>So my thought is that there's some game balance reason that I'm not grasping.
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09:01<alluke>funding is too cheao
09:01<alluke>cheap
09:02<wito>Fair enough. But by a factor of 100?
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09:49<alluke>andythenorth: when will chips become snow-aware?
09:49<alluke>the sprites already exist
09:54<andythenorth>no
09:54<andythenorth>there is no coder
09:54<andythenorth>so it won’t happen, unless a coder is found
09:54<alluke>who coded the previous versions
09:54<andythenorth>yexo
09:54<alluke>ok
09:54<alluke>and he has disappeared?
09:54<andythenorth>real life
09:54<alluke>died?
09:54<alluke>wait nvm
09:56<alluke>its going to be big step forward when nml works with stations
09:57<alluke>my station sprites may finally get released
09:57<@peter1138>s/when/if/
09:57<andythenorth>my words
09:57<andythenorth>exactly
09:57<andythenorth>can’t see that happening any time soon
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11:04<andythenorth>is cat
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11:31<@Alberth>o/
11:34<andythenorth>o/
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11:45<@Alberth>so, realistic recyclables eh? we have the technology, just nobody uses it for 20 years :p
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11:50<andythenorth>:P
12:02<alluke>i wonder if zephyris has snowy coast sprites laying on his hdd
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12:07<@Alberth>it doesn't make sense to me unless you also have frozen water
12:08<@Alberth>but, they should be easy to make, right?
12:09<@Alberth>just use the open gfx ones, with some small adjustments to stay away from the water
12:12<alluke>sea doesnt freeze
12:13<@Alberth>oh, that's why we have those ice breaker ships
12:13<alluke>or does near coasts but it'll stay liquid for gameplay's sake
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14:15<Wolf01>electric steam locomotives... mmmh...
14:17<andythenorth>hrm
14:17<Wolf01>i'm in that part of the interwebz again
14:17<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7xl6YyldeY
14:21<alluke>why is clay needed for making paper
14:42<Sylf>clay is a common additive for paper manufacturing
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15:18<dlhero>quick question: is there a way to get a monthly count of in/out per cargo type on a transfer station?
15:18<edeca>I can't see FIRS in the bananas newgrf list in 1.5.2, am I doing something wrong?
15:18<andythenorth>no
15:18<andythenorth>expected
15:19<edeca>Ah, a compatibility issue? Stray flux from the capacitor?
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15:19<andythenorth>brb
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15:21<Sylf>looks like firs2 was released as an update for firs1 series
15:21<edeca>Sylf: That's alpha, so wouldn't be expected in bananas from my understanding
15:21<Sylf>and firs2 isnt compatible with openttd 1.5
15:21<edeca>Aah, hm
15:22<edeca>Does anybody use ECS any more? I notice it has been a while since a release
15:22<Sylf>and bananas probably is showing the latest version
15:22<Sylf>yes, ecs is widely used
15:22<edeca>I love it, when I last played (~12 months ago) it was what I used
15:23<edeca>But I'm having issues with stations not accepting cargo, months after the input queue is empty
15:23<edeca>So I was looking at alternatives
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15:25<Sylf>you can download firs manually
15:26<edeca>I'd rather fix ECS I guess, if it is widely used :)
15:26<Sylf>from bundles.openttdcoop.org
15:26<planetmaker>edeca, yes... that's an issue with bananas... it only shows the latest, even when there is one which you could use with your version
15:26<edeca>My brain aches though
15:26<planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/
15:28<andythenorth>hmm
15:28<andythenorth>have I broken FIRS downloading for =< 1.5.2 players? :(
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15:30<andythenorth>yeah
15:30<andythenorth>gah
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15:36<Supercheese>well, searching for content when joining MP servers should still be fine, since it'll look for the older version
15:37<andythenorth>hmm
15:37*andythenorth is quite confused
15:37<Supercheese>but just searching for FIRS without any savegame associated may be busted
15:37<andythenorth>FIRS doesn’t appear for me in 1.5.0
15:37<andythenorth>this is…bad :(
15:39*edeca throws cheese at andythenorth
15:40<andythenorth>is there anything I can do to fix this?
15:41<Sylf>can you release firs 1.4.5, with some translation updates maybe?
15:50<alluke>planetmaker, have you ever drawn any snowy coasts sprites?
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15:54<andythenorth>bah
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15:55<planetmaker>yes and no. They do exist but are not really used
15:58<planetmaker>alluke, the problem is that the snow content of coasts cannot vary. They always stay the colour (=snowyness) which you give them initially. Thus any varying snowline height will look funky
15:59<alluke>i know and its not a problem
15:59<alluke>id set the snowline to 0 in janyary and june anyway
16:00<dlhero>another question... in FIRS some industries say: "cargo waiting to be processed"
16:00<dlhero>is there really such a mechanic where an industry can process specific number of input cargo?
16:02<alluke>the snow coasts could be separate grf or on/off switch in ogfx ls
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16:04<planetmaker>the ideal solution for snow coasts would be to use appropriately snowy coasts in opengfx+landscape when the min *and* the max snowline height are equal
16:05<alluke>true
16:05<planetmaker>you can get snowy coasts by placing river tiles for coastal water
16:06<alluke>diagonal costs will look like shit
16:06<alluke>coasts*
16:06<planetmaker>oh, not really
16:06<alluke>plus its hell of a job in big map
16:07<planetmaker>that, yes
16:07<alluke>the diagonal costs will end up looking like sawteeth
16:09<planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/screenshot1.png <-- not really
16:10<planetmaker>opengfx+landscape has quite advanced river sprites to make diagonal rivers look better :)
16:11<planetmaker>using any other river newgrf will make it look like shit, though, yes
16:12<alluke>hmm
16:12<alluke>1 level is never full snowy
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16:12<planetmaker>nope
16:13<planetmaker>50% snowyness at snowline height
16:13<alluke>i guess the hidden winter wonderland easter egg needs to change those sprites too
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16:15<planetmaker>probably
16:15<alluke>ended up looking like this https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/screenshot.png
16:16<alluke>not as bad as i thought
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18:15<wito>How do you make timetables less of a pain in the neck to manage throughout the train speed upgrade cycle?
18:15<wito>Can you?
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>well, either you delete it and start from scratch, or you adjust all times by x% depending on how much faster the trains are
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>which needs to be done one-by-one
18:19<wito>I notice there's an automatic "weak" autofill now.
18:19<wito>Which shows how long the train actually took, but only when no time is set.
18:19<wito>Which is neat.
18:21<wito>Could that maybe be shown even if a time _is_ set? Like "Travel for 45 days (+3)" or "Travel for 45 days (took 48)", to make updating timetables easier?
18:22<wito>(Well, that's an example of a traffic jam, not a faster train, but you get the idea.)
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>i agree, that would be useful
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few timetable patches on the forum
18:28<Wolf01>'night all
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18:32<wito>Also, another thing.
18:32<wito>Generational train car autoupgrade.
18:33<wito>Some train sets, like the Japan Set, has several generations of PAX wagons and mail wagons, with different speed limits and capacities, but because they're all just 'passenger car', they can't be autoreplaces.
18:33<wito>autoreplaced*
18:33<wito>From one generation to the next.
18:34<wito>Although I suppose it could be argued that the GRF is broken for doing it that way.
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is a known problematic clash of systems
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>especially older sets tried to have as few vehicles as possible, because number of IDs was very limited
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause>now, you can just have a bunch of different passenger cars, instead of upgrading the same model with different stats
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18:51<drac_boy>sorry if this is maybe a bit OT but how popular (and long-lasting) were these kind of electric locomotives that had the big traction motor mounted within the body? (rather than the then-typical later axle-slung ones)
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause>not at all
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>only the first few test engines had those, and they were usually discontinued very quickly
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>bavaria adopted the axle-motors with its first high speed series ES 1 (later called E16). prussia hold on to the system with bigger motors and rod transmission a bit longer, but the E06, which was purchased at the same time as the E16 didn't make it past WWII, whereas the E16 was used until like the '80s
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>the problem that the prussian electric networks were in silesia (belonged to poland after WWII), and in east germany (had to remove electric equipment for war reparations) didn't help either
19:13<drac_boy>thanks for letting me know it probably wasn't me lacking language translations .. I had suspected the actual numbers might be a bit low but wasn't too certain
19:13*drac_boy goes to look some bavaria images still
19:15<drac_boy>btw about bavaria I really like the S3/6 and Gt 2x4/4 when it comes to their steam locomotives
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>for slower services, the large motor+rods system was used a bit more, like the E77 and E91
19:15<drac_boy>but these were quite big examples for in their class :)
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>E91 is a freight locomotive, and E77 a hybrid passenger/freight locomotive
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>there was also the E52
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>all those purchased around the same time, right after WWI
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>during the hyperinflation
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>the technique was already pretty outdated by then, as the engines were actually ordered before WWI, but delivery was delayed
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>the next generation (E17, E04, E44) already had the axle motors
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19:19<drac_boy>holy.....mack! 0_0
19:19<drac_boy>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preu%C3%9Fische_ES_5 that is HUGE motor
19:20<drac_boy>and are these exposed transformer assembly toward the left end of the body
19:20<drac_boy>crazy, I never did ever think they would build a locomotive like that till you had me looking up prussian (which I never thought of)
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of the test engines i meant
19:21<drac_boy>at least this looks like the sort of locomotives I was curious about https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preu%C3%9Fische_ES_9_bis_ES_19
19:21<drac_boy>interesting that the traction siderod goes inside the body instead of staying on the outside
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, the diagonal rod is connected to the motor
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>which is inside the body
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>ES9-19 is basically the first "series"
19:26<drac_boy>theres always also the few heavy train locomotives with the motor mounted almost horizontal with the standard siderods (but more than often still using its own rod attachment for good reason) .. the swiss crocodile is probably one easy example of that
19:30<drac_boy>either way like I mentioned earlier on, thanks still :)
19:33<drac_boy>one partial reason I asked was because .. well I'm just mulling with a bit of paper mockup for an actual model locomotive and I thought it could be a bit fun to loosely model something with a 'realistic' drive .. you know .. not the usual toy-like worm driven motor inside body
19:33<drac_boy>I didn't start the idea but I'm interested in seeing what I can do tho :)
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 15 00:00:47 2015