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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-16

---Logopened Wed Sep 16 00:00:48 2015
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01:56<andythenorth>is a pikka
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02:24<Flygon>Every time I see Pikka's avatar
02:24<Flygon>I become hungry for Cheese
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03:31<wito>Note to self: Idea: TerraGen city placement tuning: Central, xy on normal distribution; Random, current; Even, xy on uniform distribution.
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04:32<Pikka>wot wot
04:33<Pikka>hello Wolf01 and Flygon and andythenorth
04:35<andythenorth>how is Brisbanes?
04:35<andythenorth>pikka bob
04:35<Pikka>moderately wet
04:36<Pikka>how are Bristols?
04:37<andythenorth>moderately wet
04:37*andythenorth is all about Brisbane again today
04:37<Pikka>well, it's the place to be. or at least a place to be.
04:38<andythenorth>it’s the place to talk to on the phone
04:38*andythenorth is done with that now though
04:38*Flygon boops at Pikka
04:38<Flygon>Been making dinner xP
04:38<andythenorth>apparently you have thunderstorms in BNE
04:38<Pikka>we do
04:39<andythenorth>did I mention NARS 2.5.1 is “Ultimate NARS” ?
04:39<andythenorth>much better to use a grf I don’t have to fix myself :P
04:40<Pikka>isn't it?
04:40<andythenorth>can you make FIRS please also?
04:40<Pikka>hmmm maybe.
04:40<andythenorth>I keep adding bugs to it
04:41<Pikka>I will add bugs to pineapple RVs or something
04:41<andythenorth>I have a buggy RV set already
04:41<andythenorth>I don’t see the upside for me in your offer, tbh
04:42<Pikka>hmm true
04:42<Pikka>but you already have FIRS also too as well
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04:42<@peter1138>double pikka
04:43<Pikkaphone>at half the price
04:44<@peter1138>so if you were to start ottd from scratch... how would you start?
04:45<Pikkaphone>I would start by posting a survey on my blog, maybe next week?
04:45<andythenorth>is this a serious question, or a contest for best trolling answer?
04:46<Pikkaphone>why not both?
04:47<andythenorth>the trolling answer is “look at Simutrans, P1SIM, Train Fever etc and do the opposite”
04:47<andythenorth>cos for whatever reason, they haven’t won
04:47<andythenorth>my serious answers would be: make a list of things that are definite NO
04:47<andythenorth>so it doesn’t fail because it tries to be a total pony farm
04:48<andythenorth>and stick to C++
04:48<andythenorth>not language du jour
04:48<andythenorth>and IMO the game is about building routes, that’s where the fun is
04:49<andythenorth>everything else is secondary, or BAD FEATURE
04:50<andythenorth>the game works, and as an open source project it has basically won massively
04:50<andythenorth>so any new version can’t be “oh we got it all wrong, we need to rethink"
04:51<andythenorth>that’s my 2p
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04:56<wito>Oh! Build it from the ground up on a server-client architecture.
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04:56<Pikkaphone2>on the other hand, why recreate openttd if openttd is already so good? Why not make something new?
04:57<wito>Well, yeah.
04:57<wito>But if you're gonna, you know?
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04:58<andythenorth>Pikkaphone2 Pikkaphone3 Pikkaphone that also (something new)
04:59<wito>Pikkaphone3: Pikka nick and stick with it!
04:59<andythenorth>casual game, more like Pocket Trains
04:59<andythenorth>dip in, dip out
04:59*andythenorth must to shower for a bit
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05:01<Pikkaphone4>it's probably the storm
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05:05<wito>This is getting out of hand.
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05:10<wito>Why would some of my trains take the up road and some take the down road in a spaghetti junction?
05:11<wito>I'm using the bottom one from here:
05:11<wito>And some trains use the underpass, and some go over the hills.
05:12<wito>(Well, not the exact same design, I use PBS, but pretty similar.
05:21<andythenorth>peter1138: you thinking of a re-implementation? o_O
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05:58<@peter1138>oh well he left :p
05:59<wito>Well, with the logs and whatnots, ...
05:59<wito>Besides, other people might be interested in hearing your answer.
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06:04<Eddi|zuHause>he somewhat regularly does that :p
06:05<wito>Who does what?
06:06<wito>andythenorth hits and runs?
06:06<wito>Or peter1138 reimplements OpenTTD?
06:08*wito thwaps Eddi|zuHause with a cat.
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06:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyone else has this problem that steam hangs with 100% cpu when telling it to update?
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, steam, i don't want to give you my phone number.
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06:15<@peter1138>and no, no concrete plans, just idly wondering
06:16<wito>Something like tweaking where cities are generated with TerraGen, what would that take?
06:16<@peter1138>problem with client-server is you'll always end up with data duplication
06:16<@peter1138>fine for mp but crappy for sp
06:17<Eddi|zuHause><wito> Why would some of my trains take the up road and some take the down road in a spaghetti junction? <-- that question doesn't make any sense
06:17<wito>I disagree. :P
06:17<@peter1138>must be derailed
06:18<wito>But all right, it might be poorly phrased.
06:18<wito>Look at the bottom image in the link I .. well, linked.
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>the picture you showed doesn't offer any path alternatives, so either you didn't use that junction, or you did something horrible to it
06:18<@peter1138>there are no roads in that picture
06:18<wito>Not road.
06:19<wito>My bad.
06:20<wito>But my point is: There is a tunnel underpass for trains going straight through, and the left turning tracks that allow passage straight through as well.
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i think i looked at the wrong picture
06:21<wito>Some trains go over, via the turning tracks, and some use the underpass.
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>that can happen if the path is still occupied by another train when making the decision
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>the reservation will induce a heavier penalty than the few turns
06:22<@peter1138>best solution: don't use a crappy junction like that, make your own custom stuff.
06:22<@peter1138>and don't be scared of path signals
06:22<wito>You say "when making the decision".
06:23<wito>Is the decision made earlier than I might expect?
06:23<wito>Anyway, the junction I -actually- use is a bit different from the image.
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you use path signals, the decision is made upon passing the last signal before the junction, and if using block signals, it's made exactly on entering the junction tile
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>actually, it may be on entering the tile before the last signal, with path signals
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>(so if the signal can't turn green, you have one tile to make a full stop)
06:28<wito>The junction as she is:
06:29<@peter1138>where are the trains?
06:30<wito>Well, there aren't any in the junction right now.
06:31<wito>Actually, that's not true.
06:31<wito>There's one on the east-bound turning track.
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06:43<wito>Anyway, I get the sense that the junction might be over-signalled, is that just me being paranoid?
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06:53<Wolf01>i would put only 4 signals in that junction, at the entrances of the lines
06:56<wito>Wouldn't that impact capacity under load?
06:57<@peter1138>do you have load?
06:57<wito>Fair point. :P
06:58<Wolf01>i usually play eyecandy, not scrooge mcduck mode
06:58<Wolf01>so, 4-8 trains per line
06:59<Wolf01>also my junctions are just plain, no tunnels or bridges if not really needed
07:00<Wolf01>and if i need money, i purchase one or two aircrafts :P
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07:12<dlhero>wito: nice junction
07:16<wito>I like it.
07:21<wito>It's nicely sized for 5 tile trains, and you can't see from that picture, but it's aligned so that a 2x2 grid city can grow around it neatly.
07:21<wito>With minimal interruption to the city.
07:22<dlhero>do you have any pictures about it?
07:22<dlhero>i usually do 7length*5platforms on the city's line and start doing long distances
07:23<dlhero>7*5 terminus
07:23<wito>I do 5x4
07:24<dlhero>any pictures?
07:25<wito>Yeah, hang on.
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07:26*andythenorth has problems generally with Steam :(
07:27<wito>The four southern tracks is the inter-city, the two northern are local service.
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have problems with steam, except for this self-update
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08:47<Flygon>Y'all make amazing junctions
08:48<Flygon>Meanwhile mine are boring af
08:48<Flygon>I just end up building for speed
08:48<Flygon>Which, given OTTD's idiosyncracies
08:48<Flygon>Tends to lead to me building complicated cloverleafs rather than high capacity junctions
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08:52<planetmaker>cloverleaves are... big and slow :)
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09:06<Sylf>big and slow is coop's style. *shameless plug*
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09:09<Flygon>planetmaker: I find it hard to find other 'compact' 4 way interchanges that're high seed (as in... 5 tile long straights)
09:10<Flygon>That, and, they can tend to look elegant if done right
09:10<Flygon>eg. trumpets
09:10<Flygon>Of course
09:10<Flygon>Half the problem is that you can't build bridges horizontally or vertically
09:10<Flygon>Only diagonally
09:10<planetmaker>Flygon, depending on the engine you use and on the actual train length, it may vary a lot on how long straight stretches need to be
09:11<Flygon>My HSTs tend to be EMUs doing 200km/h+ around 7-14 tiles long
09:11<Flygon>Depending on where on the map
09:11<Flygon>The interchanges will be very compact and need a lot of thinking through
09:11<Flygon>Or simply be non-weaving cloverleafs
09:12<planetmaker>design also depends on your average signal distance
09:12<Flygon>Lemme try and show an example
09:12<Flygon>Oh man
09:13<Flygon>So hard to adjust to the camera after being used to Ragnarok Online
09:13<Flygon>(inveted camera)
09:17<Flygon>You can tell I haven't been on OTTD for a while
09:17<Flygon>Any specific new features?
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09:18<Flygon>( btw, one example of me using a cloverleaf-type leaf due to it being faster and prettier)
09:18<Flygon> So, your standard cloverleaf...
09:18<Flygon>Now to eliminate weaving
09:19<Flygon>This idea's falling apart as I type
09:19<Flygon>Because it still has some weaving
09:20<Flygon>This is why I don't write the Wiki
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09:26<planetmaker>Flygon, the cloverleaf in the first one is totally fine: it doesn't cause any join before split. And depending on trains might also be fast enough
09:26<planetmaker>but a bridge in the other line would still be shorter :)
09:26<Flygon>It's very slow xP
09:26<V453000>cloverleaf is fine
09:28<wito>My bane is the ever-elusive station.
09:29<wito>I've yet to settle on a design I -really- like for stations.
09:29<Flygon>Okay, so
09:29<Flygon>As it turns out
09:29<Flygon>Eliminating the weaving
09:29<Flygon>Makes the cloverleaf utterly massive
09:30<Flygon>But allows for far more 'buffering'...
09:30<Flygon>Er, not UL'd yet
09:31<Flygon>Okay, UL'd
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09:31<planetmaker>I find it most compelling that you define 'openttd' as a form of art though ;)
09:31<planetmaker>most people probably would call it 'game' :P
09:31<Flygon>Oh, uhm
09:31<Bowen>hey guys
09:31<Flygon>You don't want to know what's inside the actuall /Art/ folder
09:32<Flygon>Heya Bowen
09:32<V453000>especially if you build something as shitty as a cloverleaf, it has nothing to do with art :P
09:32<Flygon>C'mon V453000
09:32<Flygon>I built the least shitty cloverleaf ever!
09:32<Flygon>It could be improved if I upgraded parts of the quad to sex, but
09:33<Flygon>1. It'd be overkill for double track
09:33<Flygon>2. I'm not aiming for orgasmic :B
09:36<Flygon>Point is
09:36<Flygon>It's WAY more aesthetically pleasing, and has more effective capacity
09:36<Flygon> Than this sort of thing :B
09:37<alluke>roro terminuses dont please me :P
09:37<alluke>loading stuff onto trains is usually impossible
09:38<Flygon>Don't set it to "Full Load
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09:39<alluke>i mean that the forklifts cannot accerss the trains
09:40<alluke>before i do anything i think would it work irl :P
09:40<Flygon>RoRo exists irl
09:41<Flygon>It's used for things like Mineral/Coal transfers
09:41<Flygon>And Oil transfers
09:41<Flygon>And other such things
09:43<Sylf>whats a roro terminus?
09:43<alluke>yeah, they just require building roads to each platform
09:43<Flygon>That's generally why most RoRo terminuse IRL have just one platform
09:43<Flygon>One sec Sylf
09:44*Flygon rummages Dropbox
09:44<alluke>roll-on roll-off
09:44<Sylf>roro station?
09:44<Flygon> I can find this, but not RoRo :U
09:44<andythenorth>wtf are all these junctions anyway
09:44<Sylf>terminus to me means dead-end starion
09:44<andythenorth>why don’t my games have these problems?
09:45<Flygon>Sylf: Basically...
09:45<Flygon>No reversing
09:45<Sylf>1. people build on absolute flat maps
09:45<Flygon>The train stops, and unloads or loads
09:45<Flygon>Then continues on forwards
09:45<Flygon>Most games I play are based on IRL maps x:
09:45<Sylf>2. copy-paste-able constructs
09:46<Sylf>i never see cloverleaf rail junctions irl
09:46<Flygon>That's because they're pointless IRL
09:46<Sylf>unless you tell me i've been living in a cave
09:46<alluke>all multilevel rail junctions i know are two-way
09:46<Flygon>IRL, we can build curved multi-stacked bridges
09:47<Flygon>In OpenTTD, this is impossible
09:48<Flygon>I'm not saying OpenTTD doesn't have more 'efficient' methods
09:48<Flygon>I just think a lot of them look bad
09:49*Flygon uploading a screenshot
09:51<Flygon> This is how I USUALLY play
09:54<alluke>looks very similar to mine
09:54<alluke>those "city networks" at that page make me cry
09:54<Flygon>Aiming to be as realistic as possible?
09:54<alluke>the cities are totally raped
09:55<Flygon>Granted, mine don't look very American
09:55<Flygon>I modelled after Australian example x:
09:55<Flygon>Hence the driving on the Left
09:55<Flygon>I'd be confused if I tried to account for driving to the right
09:55<alluke>this is the biggest city network ive made
09:56<Flygon>OOoh wow
09:56<Flygon>I like itt!!!!
09:56<alluke>thanks :D
09:57<Flygon>I tend to struggle
09:57<Flygon>A LOT
09:57<Flygon>On hilly maps
09:57<Flygon>I tend to aim for 7 tiles long in preplanning
09:57<Flygon>Even if the initial stations are just 3-4 tiles long...
09:57<Flygon>This means I have very hard-to-plan hilly lines
09:58<alluke>placing station is the hardest thing
10:00<Flygon>My overplanning
10:00<Flygon>Also means that I tend to have a LOT of ghost branchlines
10:00<Flygon>As in
10:00<Flygon>Either barely built
10:00<Flygon>OR half built
10:00<Flygon>Or... yeah
10:01<Flygon>Kinda like American ghost offramps xp
10:01<alluke>mustard herring?
10:02<Flygon>Some of my favorite games though
10:02<Flygon>Are those where I've built freeways
10:02<Flygon>They look very natural
10:02<NGC3982>Mustard herring <3.
10:08<Flygon>Found the savegame I was looking for where I had a full cloverleaf
10:08<Flygon>It turns out I simplified the exchange to make it smaller and have less directions
10:08<Flygon>Oh my god
10:08<Flygon>I found my FINLAND game
10:10<Flygon>I should probably just
10:10<Flygon>Give you the .sav file alluke
10:10*andythenorth must to leave this channel
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10:10<Flygon>Because a screenshot won't do it justice
10:11<Flygon>My save is outdated
10:11<Flygon>I keep losing my OpenTTD saves
10:11<Flygon>Because the OpenTTD saves aren't kept in the OpenTTD root folder
10:11<Flygon>Default to My Documents
10:11<Flygon>And whenever I change PCs
10:11<Flygon>I don't copy over My Documents
10:12<alluke>why not
10:12<Flygon>Because my entire life, I never used them because I thought they were stupid
10:12<Flygon>But apperantly it's now a requirement for modern PC apps to use My Documents
10:12<Flygon>And I take it as a personal insult
10:12<Flygon>Being made to use My Documents actually feels like an insult to my intelligence by Microsoft
10:12<Flygon>I'm serious x:
10:13<Flygon> Still, something scavenged
10:14<alluke>all your metros are overground
10:15<Sylf>change where openttd.cfg is located
10:15<Flygon>Sylf: Yeah =/
10:15<Sylf>put that in your openttd root folfer
10:15<Flygon>alluke: Nah, not always
10:15<Flygon>Just with the Finland game, it was far easier to make work
10:15<Sylf>and you get saves in the root folder too
10:15<Flygon>Also I was feeling Japanesa
10:16<Flygon> Clearer screenie
10:16<Flygon>But 50 years earlier
10:16<Flygon>Note the flat junctions, too x:
10:18<alluke>2cc trains
10:18<alluke>not bad network
10:19<Flygon>My network building techniques have improved since then
10:19<alluke>those river-lakes are nice
10:19<Flygon>Finland aint the land o the lakes for nothing
10:20<Flygon>Shame they're not useful for shipping
10:20<alluke>connect them with canals
10:20<Flygon>alluke: Even then
10:20<@peter1138>i should try playing ottd some time
10:20<Flygon>Finland's just too sparsely populated
10:20<Flygon>By the time the bigger lakes WOULD be useful
10:20<Flygon>I'dve had heavy rail used to fill where ships would've been good
10:21<Flygon>What I REALLY want to do
10:21<alluke>southeast finland has much inland waterway traffic
10:21<alluke>passenger and freight
10:21<Flygon>Is have a 4096*4096 map of Victoria, centralized on Melbourne
10:22<Flygon>And try to create my own vision of the transit network...
10:22<Flygon>As in, have a very very detailed Melbourne ect
10:22<Flygon>Suburbs visible...
10:22<Flygon>Like that map with London and it's suburbs visible
10:22<Flygon>But up to 11
10:24<Flygon>Amusingly, this would've been a great map for ships
10:24<Flygon>Hovercraft weren't available in 1835 when I built the network
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10:42<alluke__>triple me
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11:02<KrunchyAl>where is FIRS in bananas?
11:03<alluke__>thought the same
11:03<alluke__>it has disappeared from there
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11:21<V453000>stable does not support it
11:21<V453000>get trunk :)
11:21<@Alberth>o/ V
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11:36<alluke__>my train needs bigger loco
11:37<alluke__>it cannot keep the 80kmh top speed on uphills
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11:42<Flygon>You're missing the correct solution
11:42<Flygon>Tim Taylor that shit
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11:42<Flygon>Add more Loco until it works correctly
11:43<alluke__>i would but the length is limited :P
11:43<Flygon>Make it longer xP
11:45<Flygon>Bugger xP
11:45<Flygon>Good night
11:45<Flygon>And remember
11:45<Flygon>Tim Tayloring stuff always works
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11:47<alluke__>its 18.47 here :P
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14:30<TrueBrain>I am going to move our "Gateway" VM from one machine to the other; sadly this means all TCP connections to will be interrupted, and will be unreachable for ~5 minutes (depending how long it takes for OVH to migrate the failover IP to the new machine, basically). Doing my best to keep it as small as possible, the downtime :)
14:32<frosch123>bye DorpsGek
14:35<andythenorth>it didn’t reply :(
14:35<andythenorth>how rude
14:38<TrueBrain>okay .. that should have been it
14:38<frosch123>it's scary to get powered down
14:38<TrueBrain>for IPv4 at least :P
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14:39<TrueBrain>too bad I couldnt recover IPv6 fast enough :(
14:40<andythenorth>hmm no OOM for me on OS X 10.10
14:40*andythenorth wonders what map size he’s using in that FS
14:40<frosch123>he is using 32bit build and 32bpp graphics
14:41<frosch123>the latter results in 2gb of spritecache
14:41<frosch123>so, eventually the game dies of memory fragmentation
14:48*andythenorth roaming in flyspray
14:48<andythenorth>for entertainment
14:48<frosch123>just don't troll/flame people :)
14:49<frosch123>fs is no forum replacement
14:51<andythenorth>I think my answer here was ok
14:51<andythenorth>I hope
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14:57<andythenorth>I don’t understand this one
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15:03<planetmaker>TrueBrain, our mover :)
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15:07<frosch123>yay, dorpsgek!
15:09*andythenorth roams in flyspray, gets bored
15:09<andythenorth>it’s not actually very dramatic any more
15:09<andythenorth>some OOM, some reasonable-but-not-happening-ever requests
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15:12<andythenorth>this is solved
15:12<andythenorth>it’s cdist behaving correctly
15:13<andythenorth>use ‘no loading'
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15:18<andythenorth>really, he needs to know refit costs as a finances item?
15:19<andythenorth>how do I employ people with such fantastic attention to detail :O
15:20<andythenorth>I think this was fixed by fonso, there were a bunch of bugs with station cargo assignment that got solved
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15:25*andythenorth looks at commits
15:27<andythenorth>meh, nothing that proves the issue was fixed
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16:00<andythenorth>how would I use to check if industry limit is increased in 1.5.2?
16:00<andythenorth>cos we’re using svn-style tags, and I don’t understand how to use those :)
16:03<@Alberth>find the increasing commit, then see if it's in 1.5.0
16:06<andythenorth>can’t find it in the changelogs
16:07<andythenorth>commit is;a=commit;h=f3ae30112582c1dc7bd72cac73d50a7718a0dcbe
16:07<andythenorth>I could just test the binary with FIRS and see if it breaks :P
16:07<andythenorth>but I need to set a min. version for Bananas
16:07<andythenorth>I’d rather be accurate
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16:11<frosch123>andythenorth:;a=summary but, actually, read the changelog :)
16:13<andythenorth>ok so industry limit isn’t increased in 1.5.x
16:13<andythenorth>which is why I can’t find it in changelogs :)
16:14<andythenorth>thanks :)
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16:50<andythenorth>fun game is fun
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 17 00:00:50 2015