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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-19

---Logopened Sat Sep 19 00:00:52 2015
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05:01<TrueBrain>okay ... going to do the big reinstall ..
05:02<TrueBrain>IPv6 to will be unavailable for ~3 hours
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05:17<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS web-interface upload thingy works again
05:17<TrueBrain>just as a general FYI
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05:40<TrueBrain>hello andy :)
05:40<TrueBrain>you have a weird _ following you
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05:43<TrueBrain>hello mister WOlf
05:43<TrueBrain>typing hard
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05:49<andythenorth_>Phone irc
05:49<andythenorth_>Not good
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06:19<TrueBrain>well, that was only an hour and 15 minutes
06:19<TrueBrain>not bad
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06:28<TrueBrain>going to interrupt all IP connections to again, to migrate things back a bit
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07:06<planetmaker>hi ho
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08:39<andythenorth>bedtime for pikkas
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08:42<andythenorth>but uptime for frogs
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09:04<andythenorth>Squid is silly
09:05<andythenorth>not enough ships
09:09<planetmaker>someone was quite adamant that FISH2 should not have too many ;)
09:18<@Alberth>someone also changes opinion quite frequently :)
09:25<andythenorth>someone play tests
09:25<andythenorth>the ‘problem’ is that big boats must be speed limited on rivers/canals
09:25<andythenorth>so I need to add some big boats that aren’t
09:25<andythenorth>or a better solution? o_O
09:30<andythenorth>ha ha canal/river speed is probably just a misfeature, right? :)
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09:38<@Alberth>not sure, the idea of having river boats is nice
09:38<@Alberth>makes no sense to cross the ocean in a small row boat
09:39<@Alberth>how exactly is slower speed of big boats in a canal a problem?
09:40<@Alberth>having ocean steamers on a river makes just as little sense as a row boat at the ocean, imho
09:42<@Alberth>an alternative can be to add a toggle, and when enabled, drop 1/2 the boats, and make them have the same speed everywhere
09:43<@Alberth>ie drop the distinction between ocean boats and river boats
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09:49<andythenorth>Alberth: do you ever use canals? Or just lower land to 0 o_O
09:49<@Alberth>usually I use canals
09:51<@Alberth>but most ships stay at sea
09:51<@Alberth>either doing pax with towns at the coast, or shipping cargo to a transfer station
09:53<andythenorth>I think the problem is, ship speed is already very low for ~all ships. The canal penalty for large ships basically cripples them
09:54<andythenorth>it’s not an interesting choice
09:56<@Alberth>it forces you to do a transfer at the shore, I think
09:57<@Alberth>you can of course give ocean ships less or no penalty than river ships
09:58<@Alberth>so ocean thingies can travel river but not vv
10:04<andythenorth>the river ships have full speed on ocean currently
10:05<andythenorth>because it’s rare to not have to cross some sea in a route
10:05<andythenorth>a better way to state it, there are *no* river ships in Squid really
10:05<andythenorth>just sea ships, and the big ones are slow on rivers
10:06<andythenorth>and the rationale for the big ones being crippled on rivers is mostly just that they look bad
10:06<andythenorth>especially when turning
10:06<andythenorth>which might be BAD FEATURE
10:07<@Alberth>you need CEST trickery from eddi for ships :)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it works that way :p
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>you should just scale down all the ships.
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>don't try to solve problems that are effectively unsolvable
10:11<andythenorth>scale down?
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>don't make huge ships, make medium sized ships
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>like, use the current sprites as 2x zoom
10:12<andythenorth>intriguing idea
10:12<andythenorth>think it would fall into uncanny valley though
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>make new sprites at half size
10:13<andythenorth>yeah that’s what I think would be weird
10:13<andythenorth>there was a 2CC ship set that did that
10:14<andythenorth>it has an odd side effect that the small ones would be almost invisible
10:15<andythenorth>I only use the canal speed fraction because the spec implies it should be used
10:18*andythenorth removes it
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can easily justify half speed for larger ships
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't need to be 1/10 or something ridiculous
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>have 3 ship sizes: large, medium, small
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>large ships have half speed on canals
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10:31<andythenorth>where’s the cut off? The current cut off is 200t, which is too low
10:31<andythenorth>I wondered about 700t or so
10:31<andythenorth>I have (deleted) river ships sprites, nothing went > 700t or so in game
10:32<andythenorth>I am still dubious what it adds other than ‘realism'
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>a 7 tile train (12 wagons) with 40t per wagon is 480t
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>so 500t+ for the large ship
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>3 tile train (5 wagons) is 200t, so medium ship
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>and 40t for small ship
10:36<andythenorth>sizes I have, they’re fine for gameplay
10:36<andythenorth>it’s the speed cut off that sucks :P
10:36<andythenorth>also I should just dump the speed to 0 on canal
10:37<andythenorth>who wants a 13mph ship? It’s stupid
10:37<@Alberth>great way to get all ships very stuck :p
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>i just said, half speed for anything above 500t
10:38<andythenorth>currently the multiplier is 0.7
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10:38<andythenorth>why is 0.5 the optimum? o_O
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>it's noticeable, but not crippling
10:38*andythenorth wonders, with a time machine, would it have been better to prevent routing on canal / river tiles entirely?
10:38<andythenorth>instead of this dozey ‘realistic’ option
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>there are plenty of different choices
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>but you shouldn't worry about any of them
10:40<andythenorth>what is the upside of including this feature?
10:40<@Alberth>"realistic" is not a choice, it's trying to cover everything
10:40<andythenorth>other than realism?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a reason to not have the same model everywhere
10:41<andythenorth>oh that’s already provided
10:41<andythenorth>the ruling choice for ships is the amount you want to deliver in one shipment
10:41<andythenorth>only capacity matters for ships, they’re very uninteresting
10:42<andythenorth>very much the least interesting transport type in the game :)
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>i find aircraft way worse than ships...
10:44<@Alberth>yep, I never play with aircraft :)
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>airport handling is so appalling that you never use anything but the largest aircraft, and then you still don't have enough capacity
10:45<andythenorth>ships are the second least interesting transport type in the game :P
10:47*andythenorth quite likes building helicopter routes :|
10:47<@Alberth>I build fewer RVs than ships :)
10:47<andythenorth>that’s because you lack Road Hog :)
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>i build trams a lot
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>i like
10:48<andythenorth>when we (eventually, if I don’t die first) do the Euro roster in Road Hog
10:48<andythenorth>you can propose the trams :P
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>the GermanRV has quite nice trams, but all in the wrong consists...
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>also, it doesn't have a before-1920-mode
10:51<andythenorth>RH goes to 1860 or so
10:51<andythenorth>you wouldn’t get many vehicle choices mind
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>a new tram every 20 years or so
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>and some horse tram before that
10:57<andythenorth>30 years seems to be about enough
10:58<andythenorth>it’s hard to provide meaningful upgrades
10:58<andythenorth>works in my current game anyway :P
11:00<TrueBrain>Going to shut down authentication for a few minutes, while I move a VM back to its rightful place
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>i think 20 is more in line with real world models
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>but there can easily be some overlap in trams. i sometimes use a different model in each city
11:03<TrueBrain>all done
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11:03<TrueBrain>now I am going to move the web proxy .. so say byebye to all your HTTP connections to for a few :)
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>it feels cold, but thermometer says 22°C
11:07<TrueBrain>and all back on its feet again :)
11:12<andythenorth>right, ‘early’ trains in Iron Horse (pre-1860)
11:12<TrueBrain>almost done with this migration stuff ... pfft
11:12<TrueBrain>really happy when it is done
11:12<andythenorth>make them hideable on a parameter? Or just force players to use the ‘hide’ button in game?
11:15<frosch123>in the later years you can just introduce vehicles with same stats, but cooler names
11:16<andythenorth>“Supertram II”
11:16<andythenorth>“Supertram III"
11:17<frosch123>Core Tram7
11:17<frosch123>always use odd numbers
11:17<@Alberth>Cloud tram
11:17<frosch123>even numbers are boring
11:18<@Alberth>yep, we'll skip 2016 entirely
11:20<sim-al2>Super MegaTram 9000?
11:20<frosch123>Tramzor 5M
11:21<frosch123>Andy 447
11:21<@Alberth>enough for 260 years already :)
11:26<andythenorth>probably change the colour every time :P
11:26<andythenorth>‘Rose’, ‘Gold’, ‘Space Grey'
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11:39<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> make them hideable on a parameter? Or just force players to use the ‘hide’ button in game? <-- assume 99% of people use expiring vehicles
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>and if you really want non-expiring vehicles, then start with disabled, and enable it after game start
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>then the old vehicles stay expired, but new ones will continue to be available
11:43<andythenorth>parameter seems overkill
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12:41<TrueBrain> will be unavailable for ~10 minutes
12:46<TrueBrain>its back
12:46<TrueBrain> will be unavailable for ~10 minutes
12:52<TrueBrain>its back
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13:03<andythenorth>so what speed fraction should this ship have?
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13:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27400 /trunk/src/network (3 files) (2015-09-19 18:49:46 +0200 )
13:08<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6368] (r26449): when a dedicated server was paused with no clients the tick length was increased significantly, making any assumptions about the tick length used further down in the code are not true anymore. One of such assumptions was that one should readvertise every 15 minutes worth of original ticks, but due to the lengthening this timeframe would be more like 45-60 minutes. Now (1 more message)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27401 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2015-09-19 19:45:17 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>frisian - 2 changes by BAJansen
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 8 changes by hafting
13:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
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14:16<andythenorth>@seen danmack
14:16<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 1 hour, 23 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: * DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
14:17*andythenorth wonders if ‘early’ trains should have a specific railtype
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15:00*fonsinchen suspects the demands algorithm wastes a lot of CPU time distributing demand in meaninglessly small chunks
15:03<andythenorth>I wonder how significant demand is at all
15:04<andythenorth>as a feature
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 20 00:00:54 2015