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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-21

---Logopened Mon Sep 21 00:00:55 2015
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05:17<Wolf01>o/
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05:48<Demosthenex>so, is there any good means within the 1.5.2 release (no user added mods) to maintain vehicle separation in a shared route?
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06:00<@peter1138>no
06:01<@peter1138>there's autoseparation hidden away with a ctrl-click somewhere in timetabling, but keeping that separation going is a challenge
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06:19<Demosthenex>i know there is timetables, but they feel so... rough
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06:44<Flygon>^
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06:55<@peter1138>sure, but that's the only way
06:57<Demosthenex>so the wiki tutorial on timetables is opaque... any other suggestions?
06:59<LadyHawk>[20/9][16:05:43] <Flygon> And LadyHawk is either definitely a Hawk or inspired by a movie that I've been meaning to see
06:59<LadyHawk>[20/9][16:07:10] <Flygon> Ever seen a LadyHawk?
06:59<LadyHawk>[20/9][16:07:22] <Flygon> They're pretty
06:59<LadyHawk>[20/9][16:07:23] <Flygon> But
06:59<LadyHawk>[20/9][16:07:28] <Flygon> They'll tear your throat out
06:59<LadyHawk>[20/9][16:07:36] <Flygon> Because shit, she's a Hawk, not a human
06:59<LadyHawk>lmfao
06:59<Flygon>:D
07:00<LadyHawk>ladyhawke movie from 1985 i think
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07:08<Flygon_>Yeah
07:08<Flygon_>It is
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09:06<Demosthenex>ok, so i think i have a temp solution
09:06<Demosthenex>i have a city with 5 stations, and 5 busses. i just want them in sync, i don't care about the passenger traffic, as it's a growth plan
09:06<Demosthenex>so i did autofill to find the route, they are mostly the same, 11 to 17 days between stations
09:07<Demosthenex>so i set an even timetable for all busses, 3 days @ each station, 20 days allowed for travel, reset the late counters and skipped each bus to the right station
09:07<Demosthenex>now they run in a ring.
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>use ctrl+click on "start date" to distribute them evenly
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>(provided that you used shared orders, not copied orders)
09:34<Demosthenex>Eddi|zuHause: that does that with the dates, or via the stops?
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>if you have set up the timetable, it sets the start dates evenly apart, and the busses will wait at the first stop until their start date comes along
09:40<_dp_>Demosthenex, why bother that much with timetable for growth booster? just put 5 stations close enough and start one bus
09:41<Sylf>^
09:46<Demosthenex>_dp_: i made kind of a ring i wanted the town to grow into, and then i have bus stations around the ring, and one at my terminal
09:54<Demosthenex>Eddi|zuHause: that appears not to work if they already were mid-route, i have to reset them all to stop one?
09:58<Demosthenex>hrm. nope. i tried the date with them all on #1, and they all ran there when i hit go
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10:24<Demosthenex>is the control-click spread start date one of those things where they will eventually spread out?
10:24<Demosthenex>as opposed to initially spread out?
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>Demosthenex: the spreading will start once each vehicle visited the first station
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10:52<Eddi|zuHause>Demosthenex: occasionally it doesn't quite work out the right order the first time, and then you will end up with some vehicles thinking they're 98% of the timetable late, instead of 2% early
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10:52<Eddi|zuHause>they will then spend an eternity trying to catch up their delay, possibly stuck behind another vehicle that thinks it's on time
10:53<@Alberth>hi hi
10:54<@Rubidium>the timetable spreading works best with multiplatform stations that have a bit of spare room for overtaking to solve that problem with initial ordering
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10:56<NGC3982>Wat.
10:57<NGC3982>Did.. something happend?
10:59<@peter1138>no
11:10<__ln__>*happen
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11:19<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
11:19<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 19 hours and 28 seconds ago: * andythenorth bed
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11:30<NGC3982>Still, there are no logs to give me more verbose information regarding what "connection failed" means with the Soap plugin for supybot?
11:33<@Alberth>logs would be at your end, most likely, or at the isp end
11:33<NGC3982>Yes, it's my own supybot on my own server. So somewhere, i should be able to figure out what i'm doing wrong.
11:34<NGC3982>I've set the host, ive set the admin port and password.
11:34<@peter1138>what happened is the connection dropped
11:34<@peter1138>these things happen
11:35<NGC3982>You guys are the weirdest people on the internet
11:35<NGC3982>It solved itself.
11:35<@Alberth>common cause is isp is optimizing too much for speed, and sacrificing stability
11:37<Taede>NGC3982, make sure openttd is fully up and listening on the adminport. it doesnt start network till it has scanned all newgrfs
11:37<Taede>so if you have a lot of them, itll take a while before itll accept incoming adminport connections, and you'll get connection failed
11:38<__ln__>Taede: ' ' '
11:39<Taede>as for logs, there's openttd.log next to the executable, and there should also be a log file created by the bot in botdir/bin/logs or thereabouts
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11:40<NGC3982>Taede: I see. I found the log, and as usual it was very simple. I had the admin port open in my NAT, and correctly written in my openttd.cfg. Although, i missed out on the Soap.port parameter.
11:40<NGC3982>Thank you :-)
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12:07<NGC3982>How exciting to see that game creation is one-core, but split between them accordingly.
12:08<@Alberth>OS weirdnesses :)
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12:41<Wolf01>it's nice when cortana does what you need... if you cut all the alternatives it can do only the right thing :P
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12:55<andythenorth>DanMacK eh, boot http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7641/17089973226_24ff16090e_b.jpg
12:56<andythenorth>island supply vessel
12:57<@Alberth>from germany? :)
12:58<andythenorth>ha
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27402 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-09-21 19:45:08 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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14:53<andythenorth>is cat
14:55<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aBrE0qN_460sv.mp4 i've never seen a thing like this (Amsterdam boat traffic), or better, maybe last time i had a trip to Cairo
14:58<andythenorth>wow
15:01<Xaroth|Work>that's the yearly Sail event
15:01<Xaroth|Work>it gets that crazy for a few days every year
15:02<Xaroth|Work>http://i.imgur.com/9eFBCaDl.jpg
15:02<Xaroth|Work>http://i.imgur.com/o0xpRsl.jpg << sail at night
15:03<Xaroth|Work>http://i.imgur.com/XVohHNn.jpg << or a more higher-up view
15:03<@Rubidium>Xaroth|Work: you spoiled the fun... you should've said it's just normal rush hour traffic ;)
15:04<@Rubidium>having said that, yearly is a bit optimistic
15:06<@Rubidium>it's only quinquennial
15:07<Xaroth|Work>true that
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15:21<frosch123>Wolf01: and people already get scared when driving next to a suv :)
15:22<Wolf01>:)
15:25<Wolf01>we have a similar event here in Italy, every year in the Trieste gulf we do the "barcolana", a regatta for every kind of sail boat, all together :P
15:27<NGC3982>4096^2 map was unplayable on my atom. :(
15:29<frosch123>playing a 4kx4k map is like ending your sentences with 3 exclamation marks
15:30<NGC3982>Hehe
15:30<@peter1138>What's wrong with that!!!
15:30<NGC3982>!!!!
15:32<frosch123>peter1138: you need more variety ¡‽¿?�!
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15:34<NGC3982>Even 2048^2 is unusable as a dedicated server.
15:34<NGC3982>100% CPU
15:58<_dp_>Is there a way to disallow company from getting cargo from specific industry?
15:58<_dp_>to prevent "stealing" cargo for example
16:01<frosch123>no, but you could detect the stealing and then make the gs remove the station
16:03<_dp_>don't think it can be removed if there is always a train waiting
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16:10<_dp_>also.. any chances for a patch that will address the issuue?)
16:11<_dp_>I bet there were tons of suggestions regarding stealing, it's so common problem
16:11<_dp_>all major communities have anti-stealing rule of some kind, and players break it quite often
16:12<@peter1138>the idea of "stealing" is bogus
16:12<frosch123>the biggest mistake of every ottd player is to think that everyone plays like them
16:12<frosch123>i am quite sure the "i destroy the ais"-community is 10 times bigger than yours
16:14<V453000>it isnt as much about any playstyle but about following rules
16:14<V453000>if a server cant manage people to follow them, it doesnt matter what rules they are
16:14<frosch123>there are endless ways to break rules
16:14<frosch123>by blocking paths and what not
16:14<V453000>and it just goes to shit over time
16:14<V453000>yes
16:14<V453000>that is what admins are for
16:14<V453000>to solve shit like that
16:15<V453000>since stealing can be the same as building too close to somebody else == blocking, it is all very close to define :)
16:16<V453000>having people have each their own area is safest for people to not cause problems
16:16<frosch123>yeah, just let everyone play in singleplayer on the same map
16:16<NGC3982>I kind of get what he means, but i still like this game because it's not EVE.
16:16<frosch123>it cannot be fairer than that :)
16:16<V453000>that is in fact a part of the point
16:16<andythenorth>what is ‘stealing’?
16:17*andythenorth is perplexed
16:17<V453000>it is just a way some people enjoy playing
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16:17<V453000>you dont need to compete with anybody or anything
16:17<V453000>you just want to talk to them, learn from them, show them what you do, and discuss it
16:17<_dp_>why require moderators attention for stuff that can be ruled out programmatically?
16:17<V453000>and that is what can drive you to play the game forever
16:17<andythenorth>where is that quote
16:17<andythenorth>about technological solutions to social problems
16:17<V453000>dp the best rule is "do not behave like assholes" and that is hard to do by program :)
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16:18<V453000>every limitation the game could make by program could always be walked around
16:18<V453000>the atmosphere on the server can be spoiled just by agressive chat etc
16:18<_dp_>also stealing sometimes can be worse than blocking, as one useless station immediately takes half of industry production, which can completely screw up your game in no time
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16:19<frosch123>play singleplayer, that makes the players completely indepenent
16:20<V453000>chatting is way important
16:20<NGC3982>_dp_: It seems you wish a new feature in the game, not a rule change. I can understand you, but i do not really think it follows the essence of this game.
16:20<NGC3982>Or at least it's creators.
16:20<andythenorth>industries distribute cargo to multiple players
16:21<andythenorth>they aren’t captured
16:21<andythenorth>it could be probably done as hax in newgrf by dumping rating though
16:21<andythenorth>or by hax on ‘exclusive town rights'
16:22<_dp_>esiest way would be to prevent building any station close to industry, but that's ugly
16:22<frosch123>true, you can make the gs purchase exclusive transport rights for everyone
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16:22<frosch123>and also donate the money to everyone which is used by that
16:23<_dp_>and anti-stealing rules are there for good reason, I experienced that countless times myself how annoying stealing can get
16:23<frosch123>but anyway, i just don't get competitive playing in ottd :)
16:23<frosch123>i get singleplayer and i get cooperative play (which is singleplayer but at larger scale)
16:24<frosch123>competitive with "don't get into each others way" makes no sense to me
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16:24<_dp_>also stealing sometimes provoke blocking wars
16:24-!-Taco [~kitty@2407:500::2:981d:d5e9] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:24<_dp_>and I'm only playing competitive :P
16:25<frosch123>yup, you are a mystery to me :)
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16:25<_dp_>btw, anti-stealing rules I'm talking about usually allow sharing primary industries but prohibit taking from secondaries
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16:26<_dp_>as competition is fine, but you can do ridiculous amount of damage taking from secondary
16:26<frosch123>you can also make the gs purchase a 20x20 area around everyones secondary industry :)
16:27<Taede>wouldnt that also prevent the original player from expanding station later on?
16:27<frosch123>no, the gs would purchase it on behalf of the player
16:28<frosch123>gs can execute almost every command in the name of any company
16:28<_dp_>yeah, area blocking is ok solution, we are already using it for a long time actually (just for some cases though)
16:28<_dp_>but would be really nice to have something more accurate, is't just overkill to block everything
16:29<frosch123>though not sure whether purchase land is avaialble in the api, or whther it was considered bad
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16:30<frosch123>_dp_: revive the head2head branch :)
16:30<_dp_>also blocking area can't deal with stations that are already there
16:31<Taede>someone could also build usess stations at any unused secondaries, and end up blocking them all
16:33<_dp_>well, blocking can activate only after successful loading, but still is't a good solution
16:33<Taede>not hard to build a depot and have a small truck start loading
16:33<_dp_>that's why I'd like to have a way to block transfer from industry to station
16:33<Taede>even if theres no cargo to load
16:37<_dp_>h2h is a nice idea but that's not what I'm looking for
16:38<_dp_>actually it's quite easy to do h2h without even patching client
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16:39<_dp_>just rejecting all building commands on wrong side
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16:41<frosch123>so, why don't you do your blocking on the server?
16:41-!-Cybert1nus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.customer.cloud.nl] has joined #openttd
16:41<frosch123>only allow one station near secondary industries
16:41<frosch123>and only allow players to have 3 unserviced stations at secondary industries
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16:41<frosch123>or something like that
16:42<_dp_>we do blocking for funded industries, that works ok
16:42<_dp_>but doing that for every industry is too much imo, also can be cheated anyway
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16:44<_dp_>probably better solution would be to screw with train orders to prevent it from loading
16:45<frosch123>good luck with non-non-stop orders :p
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16:46<_dp_>yeah, that will be tricky to get right, but it's much closer to preventing taking cargo than land blocking
16:47<_dp_>mb not even touch orders but constantly stop train
16:48<_dp_>still quite ugly solition, would be much better if it was just built in game, with some error message showing even.
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause><_dp_> don't think it can be removed if there is always a train waiting <-- GS can also send the trains to depot
17:00<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, if there is a way to depot ;)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>GS can also build a depot :p
17:01<_dp_>... not always either :P
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17:01<_dp_>anyway, I'm not saying it's completely impossible to do now, but still very tricky
17:04<_dp_>patching ttd would probably be easier ;)
17:05<_dp_>and much more clear for players
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17:07<_dp_>ha, I know, if someone tries to steal I can just reset his company xD
17:07<_dp_>modarator would eventualy do the same anyway :P
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>so how do you imagine such a patch would look like?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, the solution is fairly simple, change the ratings so the "stealer" gets 0% and thus no cargo, ever. but how do you determine who is stealing and who has a legitimate claim on the industry?
17:08<_dp_>well, it needs a bit of thinking what is the best way to approach it
17:09<_dp_>ye, one option is to add gs command to set station rating
17:09<_dp_>and leave determening stealer for gs
17:10<_dp_>other I just though of is to do some "sharing mode behaviour" switch for every industry (controllable with gs)
17:10<_dp_>most flexible would be to add company mask for industry with some gs api
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>use the recolour bits :)
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>(has the side effect that recolourable industries show the colour of the company that claimed them
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>)
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17:14<_dp_>that sounds fishy :p
17:15<_dp_>also are they rly bits or just company id?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how industries store this, but generally recolouring is an index into a list of tables
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19:06<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 22 00:00:56 2015