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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-23

---Logopened Wed Sep 23 00:00:58 2015
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05:07*vnepom slaps vnepom around a bit with a large fishbot
05:09<openbu>..
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05:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's not dark anymore, btw.
05:57<Pikka>thank goodness
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07:59<Wolf01>o/
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09:38<andythenorth>o/
09:38<andythenorth>is cat
09:39*andythenorth wishes minimap-linked cargo chains could be filtered by ‘accepts’ or ‘produces'
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09:47<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a useful UI suggestion that won't make it totally overloaded...
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10:32<DanMacK>Hey all
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11:06<andythenorth>I can’t find the max ID for articulated parts in the spec
11:06<andythenorth>16384?
11:06<andythenorth>for trailing parts only?
11:07<@peter1138>Why does it matter?
11:08<@peter1138>Oh, max ID. I read it as max parts :p
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: probably a -1 on that
11:09<andythenorth>sounds plausible
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the highest bit in the 15-bit callback is reserved for "reverse this vehicle"
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>so you have 14 bits
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>which can have values 0..2^14-1
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>note that that last ID cannot be returned in combination with "reverse"
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11:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do you know if the limit is for trailing parts only?
11:33<andythenorth>I can’t find the relevant info in the newgrf wiki
11:33<andythenorth>I’m sure it’s there somewhere
11:34<@peter1138>what does that mean?
11:34<@peter1138>oh, last part
11:34<@peter1138>afaik the limit is for all parts
11:35<andythenorth>hmm
11:35<andythenorth>actually the limit is 8192
11:36<andythenorth>that’s rather a lot less than I thought
11:36<@peter1138>just stick with 120 IDs or so
11:36<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0#Syntax
11:36<@peter1138>when will you ever have a vehicle set with 8192 items in it...
11:36<andythenorth>in 12 years
11:37<andythenorth>3 IDs per vehicle minimum
11:37<andythenorth>6 if e.g. steam engine with a tender, or such
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, that seems too low
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the leading part can be 64k, the trailing parts 16k
11:39<andythenorth>ok so if I stuff all leading parts > 16k, I just gained another ~5000 IDs
11:39<andythenorth>that could be workable
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that works if you don't take tenders out of the same ID pool
11:39<@peter1138>meh, i never understand the terminology you guys use these days
11:40<@peter1138>but then again i don't see why you need that many IDs
11:40<@peter1138>i just increased it cos 256 seemed low, not because you need 64k IDs :S
11:40<andythenorth>well
11:40<andythenorth>vehicles “need” 3 parts
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't either, CETS has about 1000 vehicles, so 3000-ish IDS
11:40<@peter1138>why do vehicles need 3 parts?
11:40<@peter1138>they were always 1
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: to be longer than half a tile
11:41<@peter1138>well that's a broken concept in ottd anyway
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody is going to fix it
11:41<andythenorth>also
11:41<andythenorth>I “need” to put ~12 grfs into one grf
11:42<andythenorth>with a parameter to select the actual set to be used
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's still only like 1200 vehicles, assuming each individual roster doesn't have more than 100
11:43<andythenorth>there are 74 in the brit roster
11:43<andythenorth>that consumes 1000 IDs
11:43<@peter1138>why 1000 vehicles anyway :S
11:43<andythenorth>because of lazy allocation choices
11:43<andythenorth>the irony here
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, that is your hand-made problem
11:43<andythenorth>somewhat
11:43<andythenorth>is that this all arises from making a deliberately small set
11:43<@peter1138>worrying about ID allocation shouldn't even be a thing
11:44<andythenorth>there are only 28 engines here
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>there are loads of things that shouldn't be things
11:44<andythenorth>46 wagons
11:44<andythenorth>but 1000 IDs :P
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>5 generations of wagons with 10 types each, or something
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>it adds up
11:45<andythenorth>I could just stop spanking IDs
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>but your problem is not the amount of vehicles
11:45<andythenorth>no it’s the lazy lazy allocation
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>your problem is your weird padding
11:45<andythenorth>you might have convinced me to solve it again
11:45<andythenorth>I was hoping for the quick fix, but Dan has convinced me we need 12 rosters
11:46<andythenorth>and I can only fit 10 with my quick fix
11:46<andythenorth>meh
11:46<andythenorth>but still, I doubt there are more than 1500 vehicles in 12 rosters
11:46<andythenorth>so 4500 IDs should be used
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11:47<andythenorth>now I have to do it ‘properly’ :(
11:47<@peter1138>which is well below 8191 or 16383
11:48<andythenorth>the ‘problem’ is that I wanted to auto-generate wagon IDs, but in a stable way
11:48<andythenorth>eh nvm, I’ll have to set them manually
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>CETS just enumerates them in the table...
11:48<andythenorth>I have no table
11:48<andythenorth>I tried the table route, I think it’s faff
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>make a hashtable :p
11:49<andythenorth>yeah
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>hope for no conflicts :p
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>collisions
11:49<andythenorth>currently I have this total horror
11:49<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/global_constants.py#L30
11:49<andythenorth>I have a collision guard already
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>(which is, frankly, very optimistic when fitting 1000 objects into 4k-ish IDs)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that collision guard is almost guaranteed to break the stability
11:50<andythenorth>eh?
11:50<andythenorth>the collision guard just raises an error in the compile
11:51<andythenorth>collisions aren’t allowed, by design, if there is one, it’s coder error
11:54<andythenorth>I think it’s just easier to manually allocate IDs
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it's just an additional number field in whatever you use to generate the file, what you refuse to call a table, but essentially is one.
11:56<andythenorth>the data is effectively tabular yes
11:57<andythenorth>you are right actually, it would be trivial to generate a table
11:57<andythenorth>err
11:57<andythenorth>eh I do :P
11:57<andythenorth>silly andythenorth http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/releases/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html
11:58<andythenorth>ok so ‘enumerates them in the table’ is the same as ‘define the ID in the .py file that defines the vehicle’
11:58<andythenorth>and that’s what I should do for wagons
11:58<andythenorth>and new ones simply get appended to the end of the list
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS i also have code that spews out unused IDs below the highest used ID
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. gaps)
12:01<andythenorth>yup
12:01<andythenorth>ok, this is the way forward
12:01<andythenorth>just means more re-factoring :P
12:02<andythenorth>it’s how Road Hog works already
12:02<andythenorth>ta
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>of which currently there are a lot, because at some point we removed the swiss and austrian vehicles, due to compilation problems. and nobody bothered to put them back
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12:08<andythenorth>Alberth :)
12:09<@Alberth>hi hi, andy
12:09<@Alberth>feeling happy ? :)
12:09<andythenorth>eh yes
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>has anyone ever figured out what "like a room without a roof" means?
12:12<@Alberth>assuming it's not what it says, nope
12:13<ST2>maybe this? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Room+without+a+roof
12:13<andythenorth>sounds daft
12:13<andythenorth>Alberth: you know how we have the cargo chains view, linked to the minimap…? o_O
12:14<@Alberth>you marked one of the FIRS 2.0 releases as compatible with 1.5 by accident, andy? Otherwise not having FIRS for 1.5 sounds buggish
12:14<@Alberth>I read that, yeah
12:14<andythenorth>I can’t think of any sensible UI, but filter by accept/produce would be nice
12:14<andythenorth>yeah the FIRS thing is apparently by design in OpenTTD
12:14<andythenorth>might be accidental, side-effect design
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>bananas hides all older versions, even if the newest one is not compatible with the version of openttd
12:15<@Alberth>if that's what it does, it's a bug, imho
12:15<andythenorth>FIRS 2.0.0 releases are all marked as min. compatible r24998
12:16<andythenorth>which makes all FIRS releases non-available in OpenTTD < r24998
12:16<andythenorth>all, ever
12:16<@Alberth>:(
12:16<andythenorth>and there’s no way back
12:16<@Alberth>a bit too aggressive filtering thus
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>talk to the author of bananas :p
12:16<andythenorth>even if a patch was provided, we can’t patch the 1.5.x client fleet
12:17<@Alberth>I think what you did is right
12:17<@Alberth>I don't know who does the filtering
12:17<andythenorth>or is the filtering on the bananas server end, hmm
12:17<@Alberth>maybe the bananas server does
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably the server
12:17<andythenorth>but bananas is non-upgradeable?
12:17<andythenorth>there is no sane deployment step, last I checked
12:18<andythenorth>eh, frosch bundled it into a VM though
12:18<andythenorth>the mildly frustrating thing is
12:18<andythenorth>there will be no 1.6.x until April 2016 likely
12:19<andythenorth>and there is no way for me to fix this via bananas either, because….by design, no removal of grfs
12:19<andythenorth>maybe I could version bump FIRS 1.4.4 to FIRS 1.4.5 and re-upload that, compatible with OpenTTD 1.5.x
12:19<andythenorth>but I merged by v2 branch to default branch in the FIRS repo :P
12:20<andythenorth>and I have no idea how to split a new branch out from history to make a 1.4.x release now
12:20<andythenorth>so much faff :P
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12:24<@Alberth>evenink
12:26<planetmaker>hi ho
12:27<planetmaker>andythenorth, Alberth the bananas server decides what's available for which version. However you get a particular NewGRF *always*, if your safegame needs it
12:27<planetmaker>The (needless) limitation is that only the newest upload is available for normal download. If it limits openttd's versions, then all other versions of OpenTTD are kinda screwed and cannot get any other except by means of a safegame
12:29<frosch123>hoi
12:31<@Alberth>so upload a 1.5 savegame that requires FIRS, and people can use that to get FIRS.... hm......
12:39<planetmaker>that requires the 1.5-compatible FIRS. yes
12:39<planetmaker>make it a good scenario and it's worth it :)
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12:50<andythenorth>is bananas server tractable?
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13:00<planetmaker>tractable? What does that mean?
13:00<andythenorth>can we do work on it? :)
13:00<andythenorth>without descending into sadness
13:01<planetmaker>oh... hm... frosch knows that best :) I think he has a VM
13:01<andythenorth>I have the VM too
13:02<planetmaker>ok... then I do think it can be done.
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14:13<andythenorth>ach, also
14:13<andythenorth>have I ballsed up svn -> git versions?
14:13<andythenorth>that is tedious
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what you just said
14:14<andythenorth>oh FFS
14:14<andythenorth>r27279 isn’t r27279
14:15<andythenorth>it’s r27403
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's the current nightly?
14:16<andythenorth>hmm
14:16<andythenorth>no I think foobar is mistaken maybe
14:17*andythenorth puts his glasses on
14:17<andythenorth>I have become that person
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14:20<andythenorth>I fat-fingered the version for FIRS anyway, somehow
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't know what you're talking about
14:21<andythenorth>the changelog and musa.ini specify r24998 for FIRS 2
14:21<andythenorth>but the actual version needed is r27279
14:21<andythenorth>so I just made a plain dumb mistake somehow
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>you forgot to update the value?
14:22<andythenorth>I did something stupid
14:23<andythenorth>I even have irc transcript where frosch gives me the correct number, and later I repeat it
14:23<andythenorth>:P
14:23<andythenorth>meh
14:23*andythenorth should never be allowed to release anything
14:23<andythenorth>I fuck up about 50% of releases
14:27<frosch123>andythenorth: the vm also runs the bananas server, if you patch openttd with a different content server ip, that connects to the vm, you can download stuff from it
14:28<andythenorth>eh well, I needed a new project :P
14:28<andythenorth>bananas needs some work
14:28<andythenorth>buuuuut
14:28<andythenorth>Dan is back, and I want to do newgrfs :P
14:28<andythenorth>can’t everyone just get a nightly? :(
14:28<V453000>:)
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to the idea to allow multiple bananas-servers? like one exclusively for legacy grf-pack GRFs, without upload capabilities and thus avoiding some licensing traps that the current bananas doesn't want to touch
14:31<andythenorth>it took up residence in your brain, to be re-stated when the time was right (now)
14:32<andythenorth>oh, we want non-obvious answers? o_O
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure the question was rhethoric
14:32<andythenorth>there is too much useful discussion here today, I only came here for the cat pictures?
14:32<andythenorth>-?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>taking pictures of a black cat is tricky
14:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you can totally do that, distribute a custom binary with a custom bananas servers, which only hosts adult-only grfs
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i meant more like config settings for multiple servers simultaneously
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>and a GUI to add/remove servers
14:36<frosch123>honestly i don't see the point :)
14:36<frosch123>everyone uses bananas, and those who don't won't use something else either
14:37<frosch123>and the "allow servers to send grfs to clients" idea, was quite unpopular in the past
14:38<andythenorth>hmm
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, the two ideas that floated around were the already mentioned GRF pack, where authors are either unwilling or unavailable, and the other idea was "beta" versions of GRFs
14:38<andythenorth>we’d never backport 27279 to 1.5.x?
14:38<andythenorth>it’s not a trivial bug fix
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no.
14:39<@peter1138>let's do firefox/chrome style releases
14:39<@peter1138>openttd 6
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14:39<@peter1138>forced updates
14:39<frosch123>well, if there are no bugfixes, we don't need any release branches :)
14:39<@peter1138>require signed mods
14:40<frosch123>oh, how much does a grf author licence cost?
14:40<andythenorth>€500
14:40<frosch123>hm, wait, let's reverse the case
14:40<andythenorth>for €1500 we get first-line support
14:41<frosch123>we only charge if you retire from grf authorship :)
14:41<Supercheese>nah it should be a monthly fee
14:41<@peter1138>built in newgrf-store, accepts paypal
14:41<@peter1138>newgrf authors get a cut
14:42<frosch123>oh yes, there should definitely be an option to convert real money into ingame money :)
14:42<andythenorth>€1 per download
14:42<andythenorth>openttd takes 80%
14:42<andythenorth>like Apple
14:42<@peter1138>hmm
14:42<@peter1138>yes, buy "in-game" currency
14:42<frosch123>andythenorth: no, downloads cost gold, not money
14:42<frosch123>yuo can get cold my converting real money, or by playing ottd for hours
14:42<andythenorth>nah you need a second currency
14:43<andythenorth>bucks, or diamonds
14:43<@peter1138>also the base game should contain 2 maps and 2 or 3 vehicles of each class
14:43<andythenorth>which isn’t available from gold
14:43<@Alberth>bitcoins :p
14:43<andythenorth>only by tedious side tasks
14:43<Supercheese>well, diamonds are already in vanilla OTTD, but as a cargo
14:43<Supercheese>might be confusing
14:43<@peter1138>we should also have in-game advertising
14:43<@Alberth>Supercheese: yeah, I always wonder why the euros I earn are never in my wallet!
14:45<frosch123>would be kind of heavy
14:45<frosch123>getting paid in euro coins
14:46<@Alberth>for a 7 digit number I don't mind
14:46<Supercheese>get paid in pennies, be forced to use your own trains to move the tons and tons of coins around
14:46<@Alberth>ha, "pennies" would be a fun cargo :p
14:46<ST2>or Zimbabwe dollars :P
14:47<frosch123>ST2: no hyperinflation ever happened when coins were involved :)
14:47<ST2>so "pennies" will be ^^
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14:56<andythenorth>well
14:57<andythenorth>the problem is
14:57<andythenorth>I could invent a bank
14:57<andythenorth>which would produce a ‘money’ cargo, but require delivery of the actual input later
14:57<andythenorth>like lending
14:58<andythenorth>I think I can actually code this in newgrf
14:58<andythenorth>make the delivery requirements tied to previous production
14:58<andythenorth>if there is not enough the bank fails (closes)
14:58<andythenorth>BUT
14:58<andythenorth>all other banks keep count of the number of bank industries on the map
14:59<andythenorth>if one closes, the others then have a random dice roll as to whether they close
14:59<andythenorth>with an increasing chance of closeure as more others close
14:59<andythenorth>in fact, I can exploit the problem I found when I tried to fine-tune closure in newgrf, which is multiple industries of the same type all closing in the same month
15:00<andythenorth>this simulates real lending, rather than the myth of deposit-backed lending
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16:58<andythenorth>ho
16:59<@peter1138>i'm not
16:59<andythenorth>refactoring the Iron Horse IDs was really easy
16:59<andythenorth>:P
16:59*andythenorth must have learnt _something_ about code
16:59<andythenorth>dunno what
17:04<andythenorth>1300 IDs for 130 vehicles
17:04<andythenorth>makes more sense :P
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19:52<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 24 00:00:59 2015