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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-25

---Logopened Fri Sep 25 00:00:00 2015
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02:36<andythenorth>I could branch FIRS from trunk at the point where I tagged 1.4.4
02:36<andythenorth>then do a 1.4.5 tag with no changes, and put that on bananas
02:36<andythenorth>it will make a mess of the version history
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03:13<planetmaker>andythenorth, why would it make a mess with version history?
03:13<planetmaker>sounds like a legit way to handle it. And a normal way to work with a repo
03:15<andythenorth>I know the repo will handle it
03:16<andythenorth>but won’t it look odd that the history of the release is 1.4.4 -> 2.0.0-alpha -> 2.0.0-beta -> 1.4.5
03:16*andythenorth is confused tbh
03:17<planetmaker>andythenorth, no. And tbh, look at NML repo. It has the same :)
03:17<planetmaker>I made 0.3.x and 0.2.x releases on the same hour actually
03:20<andythenorth>so what happens to people who have 2.0.0-alpha or beta?
03:20<andythenorth>they’ll be offered 1.4.5 as an upgrade
03:21<andythenorth>which breaks their saves
03:21<planetmaker>no savegame will be broken
03:21<andythenorth>ok, so if you already had 2.0.0-alpha release, that stays
03:22<andythenorth>nothing breaks
03:22<andythenorth>but you wouldn’t be able to obtain 2.0.0-alphas
03:22<planetmaker>hm... but maybe they'll get it offered as upgrade. but not for existing savegames
03:22<planetmaker>dunno how the internal newgrf version is handled... probably just date, right?
03:22<andythenorth>I didn’t understand this when releasing FIRS 2, which caused broken
03:22<andythenorth>I have no better understanding now
03:23<andythenorth>so my inclination is to do nothing
03:23<andythenorth>if I’ve learnt any lessons about engineering, it’s not to poke twicce without understanding what the mistake was the first time
03:23<andythenorth>mess compounding mess
03:23<planetmaker>probably 'nothing' is even the best path of progression for 1.5.x users
03:27*andythenorth ponders. What happes if I want to join a server using FIRS 1.4.4 and I don’t have that grf?
03:28<planetmaker>you get it from bananas
03:28<planetmaker>you *always* get the version you need for a savegame. Whatever OpenTTD version you have
03:28<planetmaker>and servers == savegame for this matter
03:29<planetmaker>and also whatever you set in the settings of the NewGRF. Savegame requiring it overrules it all.
03:33<andythenorth>ok thanks
03:33<andythenorth>the ‘use a new grfid’ ideas seem bad
03:34<andythenorth>dunno why though
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03:34<Zyme>does anyone want to play co-op with FIRS and hardmode? a bit more casual, regular longterm play to make a massive complex network
03:38<andythenorth>Zyme: try openttdcoop? o_O
03:39<andythenorth>maybe you knew that already :)
03:39<Zyme>but they are pros
03:39<V453000>no they arent
03:39<V453000>and in fact, FIRS 2 is on public server right now
03:40<V453000>idk what hardmode is
03:41<Zyme>this client basically:
03:43<andythenorth>‘pros’ :)
03:43<andythenorth>they just obsess about train length mostly
03:44<Zyme>I want to have fun and not be OCD, but at the same time build a complex network, but I don't really feel like doing it by myself :P
03:47<V453000>the public is a good place to start .)
03:48<Zyme>people just want to compete :P
03:48<Supercheese>I like Reddit server2, I had a fun game on there before
03:48<Supercheese>was my first time trying a Citybuilder script
03:49<Zyme>its fun yeah but no co-op
03:52<V453000>competing in openttd is kind of pointless :)
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06:11<@peter1138>andythenorth, yes, train length and signal spacing (always block) are of course the most important part of the game.
06:11<andythenorth>I like the farm fields
06:11<andythenorth>so pretty
06:11<andythenorth>and they change, with the seasons
06:12<andythenorth>or according to random process
06:12<andythenorth>either way
06:12<@peter1138>Imagine an infinite world MMO version of openttd, all with trains of 3 tiles long and signals on every tile.
06:13<andythenorth>would be best if it was flat
06:13<@peter1138>yes, no obstructions, no pesky towns in the way, and no competition.
06:13<@peter1138>trees, they're not needed.
06:13<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> then do a 1.4.5 tag with no changes, and put that on bananas <-- i would not bother with that...
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>either you get someone to extend bananas to have more than one "newest" version, or you live with the fact that people can't get FIRS for half a year.
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>actually, there may be a way to force availability through some dependency stuff. i've seen things available in multiple versions because some addon grf stated that it required the older version
06:16<andythenorth>what’s the downside of splitting the grfid?
06:16<andythenorth>I don’t like splitting grfid, but can’t remember why
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06:16<Wolf01>hi hi
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: people won't get the update if they go on bananas and tick "get all updates"
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and you need to extend compatibility bullshit, because people can add both GRFs to the same game
06:17<andythenorth>fun bugs
06:17<andythenorth>for fun
06:17<andythenorth>and broken update chain
06:17<@peter1138>just reserve a block of grfids and then disable stuff
06:18<andythenorth>I would like 1 million please
06:18<@peter1138>don't ask, just do it
06:18<@peter1138>and don't tell anyone
06:18<@peter1138>and think people will care
06:18<andythenorth>can I rage quit?
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but only if you replace all your existing posts with "..."
06:19<andythenorth>can someone (not me) compile FIRS 1.4.5 with a different grfid, and release it to Bananas as “Stolen FIRS”?
06:19<andythenorth>it would be a nice conflation with Stolen Trees
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06:22<andythenorth>fwiw, I don’t care either way whether FIRS is available for 1.5.x users, I just don’t like that I made a mistake :x
06:23<V453000>great logic
06:24<andythenorth>nobody uses FIRS anyway
06:25<planetmaker>andythenorth, you did not do a mistake (I think)
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the thing with jokes like "Stolen FIRS" is that they get old pretty quick, and then you sit here in three years asking "why the hell did i do this?"
06:30<V453000>bananas should offer the "last compatible" version of newgrfs imo
06:31<planetmaker>yes, it should
06:31<planetmaker>maybe andy can work on changing bananas accordingly? :)
06:32<V453000>andy should do everything
06:32<V453000>roadtypes go
06:48<andythenorth>andythenorth is busy eating Skyr
06:48<andythenorth>‘Icelandic style’ yoghurt, made in Germany
06:48<andythenorth>V453000: do you want me to finish RAWR and whatnot?
06:50<V453000>want full source?
06:50<V453000>ready for 12849 GB? :P
06:51<andythenorth>nah, no space on my SSD
06:51<andythenorth>sorry :)
06:52*andythenorth counts remaining active contributors
06:52<andythenorth>on fingers
06:52<andythenorth>not down to one hand yet
06:54<andythenorth>4 OpenTTD committers, one sysadmin, one NoAI/GS, a handful of remaining newgrf authors capable of releasing a finished playable set
06:54<andythenorth>still needs two hands
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you know that "<whatever> style" is a euphemism for "knockoff"?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>"Schnitzel Wiener Art" vs. "Wiener Schnitzel"
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>now i'm hungry...
06:56<andythenorth>“FIRS is TTD-style graphics"
06:57*andythenorth eats a banana
06:57<andythenorth>then ham, bread, cheese, tomato, cucumber after that
06:58<andythenorth>then some crisps
06:58<andythenorth>and coffee
06:58<andythenorth>still hungry? o_O
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06:59<Eddi|zuHause>if you scratch the cheese (unless it's baked), and the coffee...
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>a cordon bleu would be lovely...
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not actually sure what a cordon is, and why it's blue...
07:01<SpComb>gordon blue
07:02<@peter1138>blue ribbon
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>then, what does that have to do with schnitzel?
07:04<@peter1138>no idea, we don't use the word schitzel
07:05<V453000>sauerkraut blitzkrieg
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>your german has detoriated since we last met, i think :p
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i think his name was gordon brown :p
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11:46<Sylf>Is there a way to change Bananas so it'll make firs 1.X to stable client? Can I volunteer to help?
11:50<andythenorth>frosch packaged bananas and such onto a VM image so that it could be developed on
11:50<andythenorth>ask when he arrives? ;)
11:50<andythenorth>maybe there’s a repo
11:50*andythenorth looks
11:51<andythenorth>I don’t know how the OpenTTD client talks to bananas though
11:52<andythenorth>I’ve skimmed that repo, it _looks_ like admin UI code
11:52<@Alberth>one bit at a time
11:52<andythenorth>the code for returning content to OpenTTD client might be in there somewhere
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11:54<@Alberth>that name sounds like the part that copies stuff to the mirrors
12:00*andythenorth is baffleds
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12:01<@Alberth>more than one time even, apparently
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12:29<Wolf01> mmh this makes me sick
12:29<Wolf01>but it's indeed a good piece of art
12:30<@Alberth>it definitely looks great
12:31<andythenorth>ha ha
12:31<@Alberth>it may not be designed to drive around :)
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12:48<Wolf01>is there a relevant part or we must read everything?
12:49<__ln__>read the pdf linked to at the top
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13:07<Wolf01>lol, they rewrote anything, but hey:
13:09<lastmikoi>that mindset makes me a bit sick...
13:12<Wolf01>"// Hack to support launch, will fix next week" ahah, who does not have a comment like this buried in code... and written ages ago
13:13<lastmikoi>people without silly deadlines.
13:15<Wolf01>so, long story short, he fucked up his own account
13:16<lastmikoi>long story short, they lack a staging environment
13:17<lastmikoi>which is very odd.
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14:34<andythenorth>so the next version of Iron Horse breaks saves completely, and needs beta testing
14:34<andythenorth>so I should go back to releasing test grfs on forums?
14:34<andythenorth>it was decided some years ago that was a bad pattern and should stop
14:35<andythenorth>but the bananas route doesn’t handle major version changes at all
14:35<Wolf01>release it on bananas as "stolen iron horse"
14:36<andythenorth>stolen fish
14:36<andythenorth>why don’t we change grfids any more?
14:36*andythenorth is in world of puzzle :)
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14:43<andythenorth>could the road vehicle pathfinder be weighted to avoid traffic?
14:43<andythenorth>if there are two equal edges between current node and next node?
14:44<andythenorth>or is that too computationally demanding?
14:44<frosch123>it does that for roadstops, but for regular road tiles there is no good method to track whether there are vehicles
14:45<blathijs>The train pathfinder already does that (or at least, NPF does)
14:45<frosch123>yes, but for trains it is easier, especially since pbs reservations
14:45<andythenorth>I can understand the problem
14:46<andythenorth>the ‘problem’ is that andythenorth is too lazy to build and signal train routes
14:46<andythenorth>so spams a lot of RVs
14:46<andythenorth>also pikka’s AI keeps building the roads I need for me
14:46<andythenorth>so why not?
14:47<andythenorth>it leads to boring set design though, because I make everything in Road Hog the same speed per generation
14:47<andythenorth>and all types have new generations introduced at the same time
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15:13<andythenorth>pikka’s AI has grown a 30k popn town, with just a few buses :P
15:14<@Alberth>4 buses and patience is sufficient afaik
15:16<frosch123>1 bus is enough
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16:32<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> could the road vehicle pathfinder be weighted to avoid traffic? <-- iirc there was a patch about that
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, trains do this by signal states and track reservation, neither of which works for roads
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>track reservation somewhat assumes that only one vehicle is on that track
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>two trains on the same trackbit is really tricky to achieve, but it happens all the time for road vehicles
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>so for road you rather need a reservation counter, but road tiles are some of the most stuffed tiles in the game
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20:36<Sylf>Thanks, frosch, for the info, in case you read the log :)
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 26 00:00:02 2015