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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-26

---Logopened Sat Sep 26 00:00:02 2015
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01:47<andythenorth>o/
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01:50<@Alberth>moin
01:57<andythenorth>hi
02:03<Zyme>I downloaded this client https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/wiki/server2#wiki_joining_instructions and I want to run a private server with that exact pack/version on Linux. any pointers?
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02:10<andythenorth>“Likelihood of selecting town cargos as a goal” <- does that also make it more likely that industries producing town cargos are chosen as destination?
02:11*andythenorth wondering why BB keeps choosing the same textile mill and sugar refinery and grain mill over and again
02:17<andythenorth>probably just random
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02:21<@Alberth>random within limits
02:22<@Alberth>Zyme: nothing on our wiki? Don't know how reddit thing is different, perhaps they hacked the server?
02:23*andythenorth looks for his BB repo
02:23<@Alberth>andy, there is an upper and lower limit on distance, bigger or smaller distances get a smaller chance to be picked.
02:24<andythenorth>the repeating goals are starting to annoy me enough that I might _actually_ try and fix it :P
02:24<@Alberth>ok :)
02:26<andythenorth>can GS be swapped on a running game?
02:28<Zyme>Alberth: there is patches and stuff
02:30<@Alberth>I have no doubt about that
02:30<@Alberth>andy, for simple code changes it's usually ok. Don't modify strings (only add new ones at the bottom iirc)
02:30<andythenorth>ah ok, so FindChallenge() is where the distance scrore is calculated
02:31<andythenorth>so if the map has limited cargo sources close to secondaries, goals will be repeated easily
02:31<@Alberth>sounds like a good area :)
02:32<@Alberth>close is realtive, iirc it's between 50 and 200 or so
02:32<andythenorth>it’s rand(200) + 50
02:32<andythenorth>I have had a couple of goals that are maybe 180 tiles distance
02:32<@Alberth>ah, pretty close :)
02:33<@Alberth>200 should probably be scaled to mapsize
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02:37<andythenorth>maybe :)
02:40<andythenorth>ah there is some ‘distance * 2’ in here
02:40*andythenorth digging
02:41<andythenorth>dunno if the repeating goals are just a side effect of distance check and can be tuned out
02:41<andythenorth>or if they need an actual guard to prevent repeat (which could have side effects)
02:41<andythenorth>ah
02:42<andythenorth>once the cargo is selected, the distance checks will always use the same destination, unless the map has changed?
02:42<andythenorth>because produce-accept pair will produce same result?
02:44<Flygon>Every time I see the screenshot threads, I wanna screenshot my own games. But I'm afraid that my setups would be too 'primative' for TTDers to like
02:46<andythenorth>what’s the worst that could happen?
02:46<andythenorth>some people on the internets are mean to you?
02:48<Flygon>I don't want to subject them to poor maps
02:50<@Alberth>you care too much about random Internet users
02:50<@Alberth>like "I won't write here, maybe my English is too bad"
02:51<Supercheese>just do what I do, and don't start your own thread, but post in Random shots or other threads (e.g. Complex junctions)
02:51<@Alberth>Complex junctions is easy to improve :p
02:51<Supercheese>all my junctions are complete organig spaghetti
02:51<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdnoweavingcloverleaf.png Mate, this's the closest I come to complex, and it isn't even very good xP
02:51<@Alberth>especially a few of the first posts :)
02:51<Supercheese>organic*
02:52<Supercheese>they're not high-throughput, they're not well-designed, but they're complex all right
02:52<Supercheese>also, why post a junction with no trains on it?
02:52<Supercheese>just looks... empty
02:52<@Alberth>ha :)
02:52<Flygon>This wasn't for posting, it was more seeing if I could make it
02:52<Flygon>I just know now that I can build such a thing in future for future games
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02:53<@Alberth>nah, don't learn to standardize your junctions
02:53<@Alberth>it makes the game so boring, I think
02:53<Supercheese>planning ahead? Bah. humbug
02:53<Supercheese>Just Do It™
02:53<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdchicago1943september.png Just that a lot of my OTTD games can look pretty bleh
02:53<Flygon>(Also I really fucked this rail network up)
02:54<Supercheese>that's a nice shot
02:54<Supercheese>I like the single-platrofms
02:54<Supercheese>platforms*
02:54<Flygon>Yeah, but the fact that it's all designed as a non-terminus, and one track pair per line
02:54<Flygon>Makes it inherently boring
02:54<@Alberth>it's a playing style
02:55<@Alberth>screenshot forum is dominated by people making nice small villages with small stations
02:55<@Alberth>adding some more variety wouldn't hurt, imho
02:55<Flygon>Hmm...
02:55<Flygon>I'll need to do a new Europe game then
02:57<andythenorth>sall map
02:57<andythenorth>small *
02:58<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/icelandgamev2reykjavikregion1926.png Oh man, I forgot I did this game
02:59<Flygon>I regret 'cheating' my way to Akranes
02:59<Flygon>Going bridgeless would've looked so cool
03:02<andythenorth>:o
03:02<andythenorth>people actually play OpenTTD?
03:03<Flygon>Meaning?
03:04<@Alberth>exactly that
03:04<@Alberth>most people here just talk about openttd :)
03:05<Flygon>Oh O_o
03:05<Supercheese>Yeah I'm actually playing War Thunder right now, not OTTD
03:05<Supercheese>for shame
03:05<@Alberth>(that is, if we're on-topic)
03:06<Supercheese>off-topic is the new on-topic
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03:08<andythenorth>hmm
03:08<andythenorth>what is the acceptable cutoff for repeating a goal
03:08<andythenorth>15 years? 30 years? never?
03:09<Supercheese>50 years would surely be enough, perhaps less
03:09<Supercheese>25 or so, even
03:12<andythenorth>the thing about repeated goals, is they are not really a goal
03:12<andythenorth>because you automatically win it
03:12<andythenorth>so the route building on my map is now stalled :)
03:13<andythenorth>I’ve stopped building, and now I’m just micro-managing vehicle upgrades, because NARS 2 has a daft number of new engines
03:14<andythenorth>but OpenTTD is a route building game, not a train-upgrading game (that is how we end up ‘needing’ daylength) :P
03:19<Flygon>Oh cool
03:19<Flygon>Dutch Road Furnature now supports North American Roads...
03:19<Flygon>Awesometacular
03:26<andythenorth>try Road Hog in your game
03:26<andythenorth>it needs a test
03:27<andythenorth>not the bananas version, that’s waaaaay old
03:27<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/push/LATEST/
03:30<andythenorth>Alberth: seems the thing to do would be wrap a condition around line 180 in FindDestinations()
03:30<andythenorth>and maintain (elsewhere) a list of cargo-industry pairs where a goal has been won
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03:40<@Alberth>180 only does industry targets
03:41<@Alberth>around line 250, the pairs are created
03:41<@Alberth>if you want to filter on paris of (source, target)
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03:41<@Alberth>pairs in paris, apparently
03:44<andythenorth>I think it’s best to filter on paris
03:45<andythenorth>another option would be to extend what HasGoal() checks
03:46<@Alberth>that test prevents you get 3 goals for bringing oil to the same refinery
03:46<andythenorth>yes
03:46<andythenorth>if it also could check for historical winning of the goal, that would be a clean solution
03:47<andythenorth>maybe :P
03:47<@Alberth>pairs come into play at line 249, as you loop over producers within the acceptors loop
03:47<andythenorth>I see ’already won’ as a subset of duplicate
03:48<@Alberth>so never have another oil to the refinery if you already had one?
03:49<andythenorth>yes
03:49<@Alberth>makes sense, and is even easier than pairs
03:49<andythenorth>there is the annoying case that the map has no goals left
03:49<andythenorth>which is tedious to handle
03:50*andythenorth must to children’s football
03:50<andythenorth>but I want to look at this again later
03:50<@Alberth>it tries 20 times or so to find a new pair
03:50<andythenorth>I saw that :)
03:50<andythenorth>does it message anything if it can’t find *any* goals
03:50<@Alberth>so on failure, return "failed" to the main loop
03:50<@Alberth>and stop trying then
03:51<@Alberth>or at least lower the rate
03:51<@Alberth>ie no forced update every day or so
03:52<@Alberth>new industries will be picked up
03:53<@Alberth>probably remove delivered goals when the industry disappears
03:53<andythenorth>oh yes, that’s an extra case to consider :)
03:53<@Alberth>it catches the closure event iirc
03:53<andythenorth>so the main loop needs to handle that?
03:53*andythenorth bbl
03:53<@Alberth>see you
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04:14<andythenorth_>Is phone
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04:35<Wolf01>moin
04:36<__ln__>hello customer of telecom italia
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04:44<@Alberth>moin
04:45<__ln__>hello customer of 2001:981:c6c5
04:46<@Alberth>hello user of many _ characters
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05:29<Eddi|zuHause>why do so many ipv6 addresses start with 2001?
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05:36<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-unicast-address-assignments/ipv6-unicast-address-assignments.xhtml ?
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>so they artificially restricted the namespace to starting with 2 (or 3)?
05:38<andythenorth>o/
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>and 2001 basically is for all the early adopters?
05:39<@Rubidium>obviously everything starting with 2 is for earth, 3 for mars, ... ;)
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>so a mercury probe would have address starting with 0? what about solar probes?
05:43<@peter1138>hmm, my host is masked somehow
05:43<@peter1138>but yeah, it starts with a 2
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05:59<andythenorth>Alberth: FinalizeGoal() would seem to be the place to update a persistent list of won goals?
06:00<@Alberth>o/
06:01<andythenorth>hmm, active_goals is a list, does that keep growing, but completed goal numbers are set to null?
06:02<@Alberth>yep, and monitoring stuff runs through the list throwing out old crap
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06:03<andythenorth>hmm FinalizeGoal() is also called if the industry closes etc
06:03<andythenorth>I should’t use that
06:03<@Alberth>I'd say it belongs in CheckAndFinishGoals
06:03<@Alberth>FinalizeGoals is about the goal on its own
06:04<@Alberth>you want a company method
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06:04<andythenorth>CheckFinished also returns true if timeout < 0?
06:04<@Alberth>hoi f
06:04<andythenorth>quak
06:04<frosch123>hola
06:05<@Alberth>looks that way
06:05<andythenorth>UpdateDelivered might do it
06:05<andythenorth>that handles the ‘goal won’ news and such
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06:08<@Alberth>close enough, I think
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06:20<andythenorth>hmm
06:20<andythenorth>don’t change a GS on a running game
06:20<andythenorth>OpenTTD has frozen
06:22<@Alberth>:o
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06:22<andythenorth>won’t generate a crashlog even
06:22<andythenorth>oh here we go
06:22<andythenorth>segfault
06:23<andythenorth>zero info in that crashlog
06:23<andythenorth>think it just says I killed the app
06:24<andythenorth>well, that makes updating a GS harder :)
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06:26<@Alberth>hmm, you updated data, which doesn't get initialized?
06:27<andythenorth>I just added a logging print
06:27<andythenorth>so I could learn how to test a GS
06:28<@Alberth>I prepare a savegame with the GS running, and use ./openttd -g <savegame>
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06:34<andythenorth>hmm
06:34<andythenorth>trunk BusyBee kills my openttd
06:35<frosch123>allergies to bees are widespread in my family
06:36<andythenorth>ho, seems I have to restart OpenTTD, then explicitly select ‘none’ for GS, then select BusyBee again
06:36<andythenorth>then it doesn’t crash :P
06:42<andythenorth>ok, the crashes were because the version of BB I had was ancient :P
06:42<andythenorth>and OpenTTD was persisting the settings I assume, but they are changed in more recent BB
06:47<andythenorth>eh, I’ve added a won_goals data structured :P
06:47<andythenorth>structure *
06:47<andythenorth>dunno if it’s savegame safe, seems to be
06:47*andythenorth must to squirrel docs
06:48<andythenorth>I’ve used a table {}
06:48<andythenorth>seems like a list would be better
06:51<andythenorth>Alberth: if this was python, I’d just move the Goal object from active_goals to won_goals when won
06:51<andythenorth>any reason not to do that?
06:52<andythenorth>probably means we could also list won goals in the story book
06:56<@Alberth>there is also monitoring attached
06:56<@Alberth>and you're not interested in the goal details, imho
06:57<@Alberth>make a new won_goals list in the company?
06:57<andythenorth>got that bit
06:58<andythenorth>I just need to figure out how to store cargo + accept in it
06:58<andythenorth>and if it’s a table or array
06:58<andythenorth>maybe table of tables
06:58*andythenorth tries
06:59<@Alberth>table of targets to tables of cargo ?
07:00<andythenorth>{0: {cargo: coal, accept: 0x3sfs213123}} or such
07:00<andythenorth>dunno, squirrel tables I am reading about, they seem mad
07:01<@Alberth>{0: {coal: True}}
07:02<andythenorth>:o
07:02<@Alberth>inner dict is really a set,
07:02<andythenorth>I had better read about these slots some more, I have not seen anything like them before
07:02<@Alberth>there is a difference between making new data, and modifying existing data
07:02<@Alberth>new is with <- iirc
07:04<@Alberth>simplest is to make the data at construction
07:07<andythenorth>ok, working on that
07:14<andythenorth>ok, I’ve got a table of arrays :D
07:15<andythenorth>{id: [cargo_num, industry_num], …}
07:15<andythenorth>if a player wins hundreds of goals, do I need to be concerned about performance walking that array?
07:15<andythenorth>(when assigning new goals)
07:16<@Alberth>what's id ?
07:16<andythenorth>just a number
07:16<andythenorth>starting at 0
07:16<andythenorth>I could just do array of arrays I think
07:16<andythenorth>or I could index by cargo
07:17<@Alberth>sounds plausible :)
07:17<andythenorth>faster if indexed on one of the parts of the pair
07:17<@Alberth>yeah, that's why I aimed for a table of tables
07:19*andythenorth wonders if squirrel has “if x in [some_array]”
07:19<@Alberth>it's not very useful to have that
07:20<andythenorth>oh, does your suggestion imply keeping True and False for every pair? o_O
07:20*andythenorth wonders
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07:31<@Alberth>I think you always need a value in the table
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07:31<@Alberth>but with a set, you basically don't care, existence of the key is sufficient
07:32<@Alberth>so you need some dummy value, typically a boolean, or null, or none, or 0, or 1
07:33<@Alberth>given my broad experience in squirrel, it's also very possibly my ideas of tables is plain wrong :p
07:35<andythenorth>they are making my head hurt
07:35<andythenorth>but I will carry on
07:47<@Alberth>they are like dicts in python :)
07:55<andythenorth>I can’t find anything like .keys() or .iteritems() or so :)
07:55<andythenorth>maybe everything is done with a loop :P
07:59<@Alberth>exp:= keyexp 'in' tableexp
07:59<@Alberth> Tests the existence of a slot in a table.
07:59<@Alberth> Returns a value different than null if keyexp is a valid key in tableexp
08:01<andythenorth>are we on Squirrel. 2 or 3?
08:01<@Alberth>2
08:01<@Alberth>bbl
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08:01*andythenorth has found the correct section in docs
08:01<andythenorth>that helps
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>just keep in mind that "in" is actually an expensive operation
08:08<andythenorth>compared to looking up by key, and seeing if null is returned?
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08:25<supermop>hello
08:26<supermop>andythenorth: is busy bee?
08:26<andythenorth>is cat
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09:19<andythenorth>ffs
09:20<andythenorth>this always returns false https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwcfkcz8o
09:22<andythenorth>I hate learning new languages :|
09:28<andythenorth>this just crashes https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pzqwtcd08
09:28<andythenorth>missing index when I try to read the value I’ve just set (line 6)
09:35<andythenorth>ha
09:36<andythenorth>the hash (object reference) of the table changes every time I read the object
09:36<andythenorth>that can’t be good?
09:39<andythenorth>squirrel is weird
09:39<andythenorth>can’t write “CompanyData(comp_id).won_goals”
09:39<andythenorth>have to do “cdata = CompanyData(comp_id)”
09:40<andythenorth>then “cdata.won_goals"
09:47<andythenorth>meh
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10:12*andythenorth wonders how to loop over table keys
10:12<andythenorth>foreach gets the table values
10:18<andythenorth>oh ffs, I didn’t consider just unpacking
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10:45<Wolf01>http://9gag.com/gag/a0Y1e0q mmmh, it's only me who gets the units wrong?
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10:59<@Alberth>it's not Terra Byte?
10:59<@Alberth>*Tera
11:02<Wolf01>it could be TrueBrain of cocoa too :P
11:14<andythenorth>Alberth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/patuuafpd
11:15<andythenorth>I had some “andythenorth doesn’t understand Squirrel” issues :P
11:15<andythenorth>it appears to store won goals correctly, it doesn’t attempt to make use of them yet though :)
11:19<Flygon>Meanwhile a surprising amount of RO servers still use .txt databases
11:20<@Alberth>reading text files is pretty fast
11:20<@Alberth>and reliable
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11:23<Flygon>Alberth: The passwords are stored in plaintext
11:23<Flygon>Instead of being encrypted when using SQL
11:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: looks ok to me, basically
11:24<andythenorth>tables seem to need a lot of declarative lines
11:24<andythenorth>my_table = { foo={} } seems to sulk
11:25<@Alberth>Flygon: at least they are honest, instead of thinking they are safe, but not
11:25<Flygon>Hmm...
11:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: you can fold a loop around it, but not worth the trouble
11:26<andythenorth>now I just need to check won_goals in FindChallenge
11:27<@Alberth>you can reduce the if (foo in ...) branch by adding inverting the check !(foo in ....)
11:28<@Alberth>you can also introduce a local variable for the common part, to make it less massive
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11:32<andythenorth>ach, I spent a while looking for a negator on that ‘in’ check :P
11:32<andythenorth>I tried (! and == false and == null :P
11:33<andythenorth>thanks :)
11:34<andythenorth>hmm !( doesn’t work
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11:44<@Alberth>it would be if (!(foo in ...))
11:44<@Alberth>which does look like crap, I agree :)
11:47<andythenorth>it’s a funny little language
11:56<@Alberth>yes, quite balanced in that respect
12:08<andythenorth>hrm
12:08<andythenorth>I need to distinguish town or industry
12:09<andythenorth>in the return values from FindDestinations()
12:09<andythenorth>I am impaired by the crying child on my left arm, somewhat
12:11*andythenorth figures it out
12:24<dlhero>hey hi
12:24<dlhero>tryin to clone nuts but I can't
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12:24<dlhero>anything wrong with hg on server ?
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12:37<@Alberth>no idea, channel to talk to is #openttdcoop.devzone in general
12:37<andythenorth>might be too big
12:37<@Alberth>nuts is probably a bit very big
12:37<@Alberth>what does hg say?
12:46<dlhero>http://pastebin.com/zquhTcet
12:47<andythenorth>eh, the industries seem to be logging the id correctly
12:47<andythenorth>but towns seem to be storing 0 always
12:48<andythenorth>also I really don’t understand scopes in squirrel
12:49<andythenorth>I create an object in the company, but I seem to be able to read arbitrary, non-useful versions of it if I get the scope wrong
12:49<frosch123>dlhero: the webserver at coop terminates connections after 1 minute or so
12:49<frosch123>so no pull or clone can take longer
12:49<frosch123>you can work around that by not pulling everything at once
12:50<frosch123>like hg clone -r10 ... and then hg pull -r20 and so on
12:52<dlhero> :/
12:52<TrueBrain>right; time to finish this dreadful migration of openttd.org services ... will try to minimize the outage :)
12:52<@Alberth>don't remember what towns do exactly, although I remember being able to print the town name from it
12:52<dlhero>would appreciate an http link to tip :)
12:53<@Alberth>hi TrueBrain
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12:53<frosch123>dlhero: there are snapshots on bundles
12:53<frosch123>but you can likely also just download the binary then
12:53<frosch123>no idea what you try to do :)
12:54<dlhero>frosch123: need a tar.gz of the repo
12:57<@Alberth>no nuts @ bundles
12:59<frosch123>there are no archives with the complete repos
12:59<frosch123>only single revisions
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13:02<andythenorth>bloody :
13:02<andythenorth>or ; even
13:09<andythenorth>Alberth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pom6cmewi#line-63
13:09<andythenorth>hard to test if that is working :)
13:09<andythenorth>the towns stuff I’ve left out for now
13:09<andythenorth>hard to prove a negative :P
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13:15<@Alberth>You can't just access by key?
13:15<andythenorth>I tried that but got an index error
13:15<@Alberth>you can't just test whether the key exists, and if it does retrieve it and do the next test?
13:16<andythenorth>erh, yes, that would be much more sensible :P
13:16<andythenorth>oops
13:16<TrueBrain>openttd.org website will be down for a few, while I sync data from one machine to the other and reconfigure the network .. joyful :)
13:18<andythenorth>Alberth: less stupid? o_O https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p5qgn92bu#line-65
13:19<@Alberth>you can "return cargo_id in this.won_goals["industries"][accept["ind"]];" but yeah
13:20<andythenorth>even better :)
13:21*andythenorth afk for a bit
13:22<TrueBrain>okay, website should be back alive and kicking :)
13:24<@Alberth>/me stays away from it for a while
13:25<@Alberth>front page works
13:25<TrueBrain>does it work for IPv6 too?
13:26<@Alberth>yep
13:26<TrueBrain>cool
13:26<TrueBrain>tnx :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27404 trunk/src/lang/arabic_egypt.txt (2015-09-26 19:45:17 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>arabic_egypt - 64 changes by abdumzn
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14:16*andythenorth ponders
14:16<andythenorth>how to test non-repeating goals :P
14:16<TrueBrain>once :)
14:16<andythenorth>I had a lovely game running, but it was ancient BB
14:16<andythenorth>so eh
14:16<andythenorth>segfaulty :P
14:16-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:16<frosch123>add a sign cheat to complete goals :)
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14:20<andythenorth>that is a wise suggestion
14:20<andythenorth>or a sign cheat to trigger the goal generation :P
14:20<andythenorth>with parameters :P
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14:43<jackyf>good evening, my openttd (1.5.2) seems having a problem connecting to a content server (content.openttd.org:3978, "connection refused"); I wonder if it's a problem with my connection or a server-side issue
14:45<TrueBrain>jackyf: try now
14:46<jackyf>TrueBrain: works now, thanks!
14:46<TrueBrain>and tnx for reporting :)
14:48<andythenorth>Alberth: is it plausible that the towns are selected in linear order, ascending from ID 0?
14:48<andythenorth>when assigning town goals
14:48<@Alberth>sounds quite plausible to me
14:49<andythenorth>the first one is always reporting 0 :P
14:49<andythenorth>and the second 1
14:49<andythenorth>etc :P
14:49<andythenorth>hopefully not my bug :)
14:50<jackyf>TrueBrain: you are welcome, nice to see a fast fix :)
14:50<jackyf>bye!
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14:53<andythenorth>that might explain why I haven’t noticed town goals repeating
14:53<andythenorth>_maybe_
14:54<andythenorth>Alberth: I think I’m done, needs playtested, commit in a branch? Or to default and revert if bad?
14:56<@Alberth>feel free to keep it for a while, else please make bookmark
14:57*andythenorth learns about bookmarks
14:57<andythenorth>every day a schoold day
15:13<andythenorth>eh we had a convenient issue already :) https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7521
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15:24*andythenorth must to a game
15:28<@Alberth>:)
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15:43<Demosthenex>so after the game downloads opengrf, it still says things are missingon the main screen. what else should i get?
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15:50<andythenorth>does it say what is missing?
15:56<Demosthenex>just a red window says that some graphics are missing from base
15:56<Demosthenex>yet i let it autodownload opengrf
15:57<Demosthenex>wild, when i did a download separeately it resolve dit
15:57*andythenorth has no suggestions sorry :(
15:57*andythenorth uses the original graphics
15:58<Demosthenex>yeah, i prefer them over the 32bpp stuff, i can't tell when something breaks down in that one
15:58<Demosthenex>no smoke, or not visible enough
15:58<Demosthenex>so i hear FIRS really changes up the industries?
15:59<Demosthenex>but it's not in the listof online content
16:00<andythenorth>don’t ask :(
16:00<andythenorth>there was a mistake
16:00<andythenorth>and now it’s no longer available
16:01<andythenorth>manually downloadable here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/firs-5743.tar.zip
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16:01<andythenorth>actually this one http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/1.4.4/firs-5571.tar.zip
16:01<Demosthenex>https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/3m01l9/cant_find_firs_mod/
16:01<Demosthenex>i was just reading that
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16:04<@Alberth>opengrf?
16:05<@Alberth>if you have a savegame requiring that firs, you can get it by content download for the savegame
16:06<Demosthenex>openttd a fatal newgrf error occurred sprite 9679?
16:06<Demosthenex>after adding firs
16:06<@Alberth>which firs?
16:06<@Alberth>the new one, I am guessing
16:07<@Alberth>which won't run, as you need a trunk openttd for it
16:07<@Alberth>or a nightly
16:07<Demosthenex>so i should use 5571 then
16:07<@Alberth>or use a newer openttd :)
16:08<Demosthenex>i'm on 1.5.2
16:10<andythenorth>yeah, use 1.4.4 ;)
16:10<andythenorth>(5571)
16:11<andythenorth>eh
16:11<andythenorth>why can’t I give a train ID 20 (dec)
16:11<andythenorth>?
16:11<andythenorth>in a newgrf
16:11<andythenorth>it is built as a double-headed engine, no matter what I do
16:15<Demosthenex>wait, which firs for 1.5.2 then?
16:16<@Alberth>5571
16:17<@Alberth>1.4.4 is the firs version, rather than an openttd version :)
16:17<@Alberth>noight andy
16:18<@Alberth>*night
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16:23<frosch123>andythenorth: using default ids uses default properties
16:24<frosch123>using non-default ids uses no properties
16:25<andythenorth>ha I didn’t encounter that previously, due to accident
16:25<andythenorth>all Iron Horse IDs were 1000+
16:33*andythenorth fixes :)
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17:07<Demosthenex>so on a long route,is there a way to tell a vehicle to retrace it's steps (ie: route in reverse) instead of going th elong way back to the point of origin? manually adding the stations in reverse order warns me nonstop about duplicate orders...
17:11<frosch123>duplicate orders is only if they follow directly after each other
17:11<frosch123>anyway, do you know about orders without "nonstop"
17:11<frosch123>then you only need two orders for start and end
17:12<Demosthenex>these are busses, i've seen nonstop on trains
17:12<frosch123>no intermediate orders
17:12<Demosthenex>just mang a bus loop
17:16<frosch123>the same exists for road vehicles, but you may have to use the oneway-tool to restrict the routes
17:16<frosch123>so, the vehicles actually drive through the intermediate stations
17:17<frosch123>it's easier with trains :)
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17:27<Demosthenex>that was the clue i needed, that a duplicate order is when the last station is repeated. throw in a maintenance at a nearby facility, and done. now i have my loops
17:38<Demosthenex>are there no early game fishing ships?
18:03<Supercheese>you'll want the FISH set for that
18:03<Supercheese>or, well, maybe it's SQUID now
18:04<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1128874#p1128874
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18:23<Demosthenex>hrm, and now i don't see a car for iron ore?
18:24<Supercheese>If you're using FIRS, you will also need to use newgrf vehicle sets
18:24<Supercheese>vanilla vehicles are insufficient
18:25<Demosthenex>hrm. did i miss a page on prerequisites for FIRS?
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18:27<Demosthenex>the firs main page just says "vehicle support, download some", not which to get
18:32<Supercheese>There are many to choose from
18:33<Supercheese>You can stick with all-andy grfs though and get FIRS, SQUID/FISH, Road Hog, Iron Horse, and HEQS
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18:34<Supercheese>and Av8 for aircraft, since it is the undisputed best aircraft set
18:35<Supercheese>in road vehicles and trains, though, there are numerous choices
18:37<Demosthenex>i'm just amazed that there was a list of "you need X Y & Z to make FIRS work"
18:37<Demosthenex>not on reddit or any search i can find
18:40<Supercheese>well, it's pretty much just "You need some vehicle set other than the default vehicles", which means for Road Vehicles, Trains, Ships, and Aircraft
18:40<Supercheese>technically you can get by with just one if you use only trains, or you won't need an aircraft set if you stick to just flying passengers around
18:41<Supercheese>However, no explicit dependencies can be set, because there are so many options in those categories
18:41<Supercheese>Reddit Server 2 is a popular MP server that runs FIRS, you can check out their grf list: https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/wiki/server2
18:42<Supercheese>just their recommendation, of course; personally I find they use too many train sets, one would be enough
18:43<Demosthenex>i ran with what you just suggeted, only downside is i have to start a new map
18:44<Demosthenex>that's ok though
18:44<sim-al2>I've thought about getting that changed, we've had the same stuff for a long time now. Good news is that a new client is being made by efess
18:44<Supercheese>oh new client eh? Any new/removed patches?
18:45<sim-al2>So far no, it looks like everything works, but on a far more recent base
18:45<Supercheese>I see, well a rebase would allow use of FIRS 2, if that's the intention
18:46<Supercheese>although there may yet be latent bugs in the most recent FIRS
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19:18<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 27 00:00:03 2015