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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-09-27

---Logopened Sun Sep 27 00:00:03 2015
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02:45<andythenorth>o/
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03:00<@Alberth>moin
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03:07*andythenorth wonders
03:08<andythenorth>FIRS Tropic Basic has zero sea-based industries
03:08<andythenorth>leaves the sea looking a bit bare
03:09<@Alberth>and tropical having such inviting waters
03:10<andythenorth>could have fishing grounds
03:10<andythenorth>producing food
03:10<andythenorth>bit weird
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03:13<@Alberth>tourists diving to old wrecks :p
03:25<andythenorth>treasure :)
03:26<andythenorth>actually, treasure is not a bad industry idea
03:27<andythenorth>http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/5702015350655?hei=450&wid=450&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_George_rd
03:28<@Alberth>ah, the inevitable sharks :)
03:30<@Alberth>you can also dive for gold, apparently
03:48<TrueBrain>MySQL will be out taking a piss for the next ~15 minutes; a lot of openttd.org services will be unavailable during that time
03:48<andythenorth>a truebr*in’s work is never done :)
03:49<TrueBrain>well, I am really happy when this is over :P
03:49<andythenorth>a happy TrueBrain is a good thing
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04:01<TrueBrain>MySQL is purring again
04:02<V453000>cat found
04:03<@Alberth>:)
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04:26<andythenorth>happy cat
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04:37<dlhero>andythenorth: I think ships are a little bit neglected :(
04:39<andythenorth>in the game, or in newgrfs?
04:42<dlhero>both. I played a long game with Squid Ate Fish and after a certain year running costs rise to the point that they are not usable
04:47<dlhero>generally I think they are not balanced and there is no good ship variety
04:47<dlhero>no roro ships etc etc
04:51<dlhero>or certain ferries are not represented at all. for example this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Star_Ferries
04:53-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host125-136-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
04:53<Wolf01>o/
04:53<andythenorth>hmm
04:54<andythenorth>running costs scale linearly in Squid, they’re directly proportional to capacity and speed
04:54<andythenorth>dlhero: do you have inflation on in your game?
04:54<dlhero>of course i do.
04:54<andythenorth>yeah, inflation is a known bug
04:54<andythenorth>really it should be removed
04:55<andythenorth>it generates a lot of ‘newgrf is broken’ reports
04:55<dlhero>hehe i really have no problem with costs
04:55<dlhero>but it doesn't seem to be all that proportional
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04:56<dlhero>e.g. the maspalomas is 233,780gbp/year (speed=42, capacity=1440)
04:56<dlhero>while the pegwell super is 255,944gbp/year (speed=100, capacity=100)
04:57<dlhero>it doesn't seem it scales linearly with speed/capacity
04:57<andythenorth>is that pegwell broken?
04:57<andythenorth>it should be 400 cap
04:58<dlhero>400pax. 100 cargo
04:59<andythenorth>that’s what happens when I have the development version, and it’s a bit ahead of the released version :P
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04:59<andythenorth>there is no freight refit on the pegwell in my version
04:59<andythenorth>partly because of that silly disparity
04:59<andythenorth>but mostly because, eh not needed
04:59<dlhero>use it for eng supplies on firs.
04:59<@Alberth>quak
05:01<frosch123>moin
05:02<andythenorth>it’s possible that the run costs on the big freighters are just too low
05:04<dlhero>a cool feature for certain "tankers" would be disappearing cargo
05:04<andythenorth>disaster: ship sank :P
05:04<dlhero>certain lng freighters run on what they carry :)
05:05<dlhero>that too
05:06<frosch123>hope that your stuff is not in the container on the ship border?
05:06<andythenorth>fwiw, the pax ferries were deliberately removed from current Squid
05:06<andythenorth>no point to them if you have a 70mph, 400 pax hovercraft
05:07<andythenorth>literally never would you choose a slow ferry instead
05:07<frosch123>i thought removing them was an investment?
05:07<dlhero>2.8κ ψαπαψιτυ?
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05:07<dlhero>2.8k capacity?
05:07<frosch123>only if you remove stuff, you can later have a feature that reintroduces stuff
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05:08<andythenorth>frosch123: that is rather too close to the truth :P
05:08<andythenorth>anyway, anyone who wants to make a ‘comprehensive’ ship set
05:08<andythenorth>there are a *lot* of currently unused sprites in FISH/Squid
05:08<andythenorth>and the code is quite easy to work with
05:09<dlhero>well it's a shame imho. since there are no fast ships around
05:10<dlhero>and hovercrafts are not really used
05:10<dlhero>I've never seen a hovercraft operating commercially
05:10<@Alberth>so?
05:11<@Alberth>openttd is a game rather than a real-world simulation
05:11<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish
05:11<dlhero>Alberth: for fun :)
05:11<@Alberth>you ever saw trains going in 45 degrees corners in reality?
05:12<@Alberth>dlhero: well, feel free to hide the hovercraft and just not use it
05:12<andythenorth>I went on this one in the summer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6AGEXGzEtY
05:12<andythenorth>the takeoff is slightly spooky and surreal
05:13<andythenorth>and it powerslides away down the ramp sideways in quite an epic style
05:14<dlhero>hehe yeah
05:37<andythenorth>someone did fork Squid
05:37<andythenorth>to make RedFISH
05:50<TrueBrain>okay, the last machine ... binaries.openttd.org and everything related to that will be unavailable for a few
05:57<TrueBrain>grr, unplug is taking for ever .. :(
06:00<TrueBrain>right; machine is booting ... tick tack
06:01<TrueBrain>okay; all services should be back up and running
06:02<TrueBrain>let me know if anything is not please :)
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06:12*SpComb installs icinga for TrueBrain
06:13<TrueBrain>you won't like the status it returns
06:14<TrueBrain>disk full, out of memory, not enough CPU, etc .. long list of warnings :P
06:14<TrueBrain>connectivity errors
06:14<TrueBrain>invalid protocol
06:15<TrueBrain>hehe, describing a human in terms of nagios is fun :D
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07:06<andythenorth>hurgh
07:06<andythenorth>FIRS Stockyard could use another layout
07:06<andythenorth>I’m bored of this one :P
07:06<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#stockyard
07:07<@Alberth>bit massive
07:09<andythenorth>as massive buildings go, I’m ok with it
07:09<andythenorth>but I would do it differently if starting from scratch
07:09<@Alberth>everybody would
07:10<@peter1138>Does that page show all layouts?
07:10<@Alberth>if you wouldn't, you either haven't leaned anything, or or you picked the one optimal solution for the unknown problem
07:11<@Alberth>peter1138: not by a long shot
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07:15<andythenorth>nah
07:15*andythenorth ponders writing a layout renderer for the docs
07:15<andythenorth>I’d need a sprite parser, and a spritesorter, in PIL
07:16<frosch123>sounds like a thing andy would do :)
07:16<andythenorth>I don’t fancy it much tbh
07:16<andythenorth>eh, if I can render industries in python, it’s only one step more to reimplement OpenTTD, right?
07:16<andythenorth>in a slow language
07:16<andythenorth>o_O
07:21<@Alberth>people do these things in a browser in javascript :p
07:21<andythenorth>javascript is super awesome
07:21<andythenorth>lightning fast
07:22<andythenorth>and you don’t need to be a good programmer to write highly performant software in it
07:22<andythenorth>said nobody ever
07:22<@Alberth>hmm, I need an excuse to learn it
07:23<andythenorth>http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=27506471&sid=3f270584ea9c248d05dafea96a26326e#p27506471
07:23<andythenorth>otoh http://www.wintellect.com/devcenter/dbanister/stop-fighting-node-js-in-the-enterprise
07:24<andythenorth>my hatred of javascript is nearly 15 years out of date
07:24<andythenorth>I started using it, and had a rapid crash course in browser compatibility
07:24<andythenorth>followed by Much Regrets
07:24<andythenorth>I switched to a ‘proper’ language
07:24<andythenorth>Flash ActionScript :P
07:27<@Alberth>language wars are always 'fun' :p
07:29<andythenorth>this rant is enjoyable thoughhttps://www.semitwist.com/mirror/node-js-is-cancer.html
07:29<andythenorth>he’s right
07:29<andythenorth>but I have node.js code in production nonetheless
07:29<frosch123>see, i was lucky: i never had to use mysql, i could already use psql
07:30<frosch123>i never learnt perl, because python was already around
07:30<andythenorth>we did some mysql
07:31<frosch123>i never learnt advanced c preprocessor magic, because templates were already around
07:31<andythenorth>for ‘high performance’ stuff
07:31<andythenorth>ha
07:31<frosch123>i never learnt java awt, because swing was already around (?)
07:32<frosch123>otoh, i learned nfo, because nml wasn't around :p
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07:32*andythenorth misses nfo
07:32*_dp_ never learnt machine code coz assembler was already around...
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07:33<frosch123>hah, i learnt machine code because i wanted to write my own disassembler :p
07:37<andythenorth>this Road Hog is not done yet :(
07:37*andythenorth playing
07:37<andythenorth>none of you ever use FIRS Basic economies, right?
07:38<frosch123>huh? none of us ever uses full firs
07:38<andythenorth>is that because Nobody Uses FIRS? :)
07:38<frosch123>you do, isn't that enough?
07:39<andythenorth>apparently
07:39<andythenorth>it’s still being developed it seems
07:42<andythenorth>might add Fish back to Tropic and Temperate Basic
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07:42<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#<economy.Economy%20object%20at%200xf21dd0>
07:42<andythenorth>eh that’s a terrible id on that div
07:42<andythenorth>who wrote that :P
07:43*andythenorth misses sea industries
07:52<Demosthenex>so, i have a station next to a dairy in FIRS. i deliver milk, i expect to see food come out. turns out the town nearby is attached to the same station and accepts food. is it being automatically sold?
07:52<Demosthenex>i just want ot make sure my food isn't just disappearing
07:53<andythenorth>it won’t automatically be delivered to the town
07:57<andythenorth>do you have vehicles collecting it? o_O
08:06<Demosthenex>no, the food's just gone
08:18<Demosthenex>i have milk trains droppping off.
08:18<Demosthenex>but like i said, the station accepts food, you sure it wouldn't just get "eaten"? the dairy says it produced 155 tons one month and 0 later...
08:18<Demosthenex>no pickup vehicles at all
08:19<dlhero>that's why it's 0
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08:20<Demosthenex>so i should try to pick up food once to start it stocking at the station
08:22<@Alberth>it doesn't start stocking until you try loading it
08:23<@Alberth>unless you switch a setting back to the original behavior, that is
08:23<@Alberth>but then you get bad ratings due to not handling cargo
08:24<@Alberth>so it's better to leave the switch as is, and start loading
08:24<Demosthenex>just confused by non-original behavior. got it now.
08:24<@Alberth>how did you get milk then?
08:25<@Alberth>surely, there was no milk before you started adding vehicles
08:25<Demosthenex>strictly secondary industry.
08:25<Demosthenex>i expected to see an output when i provided an input
08:26<@Alberth>confusing default industry behavior with FIRS, eh?
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08:27<@Alberth>keep in mind that most industry sets do very different things than the default industries
08:30<Demosthenex>yeah, first time with firs though.
08:30<Demosthenex>milk was the first thing that i could find to ship aorund
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09:26<George>Hi
09:26<George>Is it safe to change Te depending on current speed?
09:26<George>Would it cause desync?
09:45<@peter1138>why would you do that?
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09:53<Flygon>peter1138: Gears
09:53<Flygon>Some Diesel-Hydralic DMUs use Gears
09:53<Flygon>The VLocities and Sprinters being examples locally
09:54<Flygon>And they do have different acceleration curves depending on what gear they're in. It's not exactly 'smooth' like an Electric motor xP
09:58<@peter1138>yers
09:58<@peter1138>George, it will desync
09:59<George>Thanks, peter
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11:06<andythenorth>Demosthenex: FIRS should produce output straight away when cargo is delivered, otherwise there’s a bug :)
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11:30<andythenorth>@seen danmack
11:30<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
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11:44<Demosthenex>andythenorth: it does, AFTER i've made something capable of picking up the cargo show up at the station
11:44<andythenorth>yeah
11:45<Demosthenex>that was the problem. i was putting in milk, and getting paid, but no food. i was going ot stockpile a bit while i made my next route
11:45<andythenorth>there is an advanced setting in OpenTTD somewhere
11:45<Demosthenex>its ok
11:46<Demosthenex>now that i know, no prblem.
11:46<andythenorth>hmm
11:46<Demosthenex>i'm still broke but i love the challenge. i may finally get the chance to figure out cargodist
11:46*andythenorth should write a better cargodist guide
11:46<Demosthenex>i've just started experimenting with feeder stations in vanilla ttd
11:46<andythenorth>Demosthenex: if you have cargodist questions, ask them here, I might be able to write answers I can reuse later
11:46<Demosthenex>so keep my mainlines open, and use transfers and long haul
11:47<Demosthenex>the next logical step would be to learn cargodist
11:47<Demosthenex>sure
11:47<Demosthenex>actually, is is cargodIst or cargodEst?
11:52<andythenorth>dist
11:52<andythenorth>it’s in the ‘Cargo distribution’ section of settings
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11:53<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1157226#p1157226
12:01<_dp_>is there a way to nerf planes without newgrfs?
12:01<Demosthenex>and the difference between {station,amount}/{waiting,planned}?
12:06<Demosthenex>it was non-obvious that the cargo distribution legend was where you actually controlled the view
12:06<Demosthenex>also, you can't say "30% of this output to this dest, and 70% to another". cargodist is just going to evenly or psuedorandomly spread it out?
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12:11<andythenorth>there is a demand function
12:12<andythenorth>if distance effect is 100%, demand is scaled by distance
12:12<Demosthenex>even better, so more cargo to where it makes more money.
12:12<andythenorth>no
12:12<andythenorth>just by distance
12:12<Demosthenex>f(money) ~= f(distance)
12:12<andythenorth>and cargo will be distributed in proportion to the distance
12:12<andythenorth>if distance effect is 0%, then cargo will be distributed evenly as 1/number destinations
12:13<Demosthenex>lastly, i have a small network of trucks in a star pattern now, with cargodest is it better that i change that pattern to a ring or multistop?
12:13<andythenorth>*less* cargo to more distant locations btw
12:13<andythenorth>broadly, distance effect makes no sense except for pax, but can’t be tuned by cargo
12:13<Demosthenex>really?! i thought you made more $ the further it goes.. so why wouldn't it try to send it far?
12:14<andythenorth>I believe the intention is (1) to simulate local pax journeys (commuting etc) (2) long-distance floods pax networks with unmanageable numbers of pax
12:15<Demosthenex>ok.
12:15<Demosthenex>bakc to the route pattern, star or other?
12:16<dlhero>andythenorth: when does pax become unmanageable?
12:16<dlhero>12k-14k?
12:16<andythenorth>depends on what newgrfs you have etc, and your play style, and the game date
12:17<andythenorth>‘unamanageable’ is a function of capacity-per-tile-per-unit-of-time
12:19<andythenorth>Demosthenex: for pax I’d just connect everything
12:21<andythenorth>the pattern doesn’t matter much as long as your vehicles flow well
12:21<andythenorth>for freight cargo, point-to-point is easiest to manage
12:22<andythenorth>transfers work fine too
12:22<andythenorth>be sure to use ‘no loading’ orders on vehicles at drop-off stations
12:23<andythenorth>otherwise you can get cargo unexpectedly back-loading
12:23<andythenorth>also use non-stop orders if the vehicle travels through any intermediate stations, or the effects can be very weird
12:25<andythenorth>also if a station already has a route, and additional routes are added, there is a long delay (3 months in my games) before cdist will assign cargo to the new route, which can cause vehicles to wait a long time, blocking stations
12:25<andythenorth>(for pickup stations)
12:28<andythenorth>finally, whatever anyone else says, cargodist *does not* attempt to assign cargo to destinations in proportion to route capacity
12:29<andythenorth>however if there are two valid routes for the same source-destination, cargodist *does* attempt to load-balance between those routes
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13:24<dlhero>andythenorth: several industries with cargodist could "ask" for certain cargo
13:25<dlhero>e.g. port asks for 224 units of goods/fruit/msupplies whatever
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27405 /trunk/src/lang (latin.txt vietnamese.txt) (2015-09-27 19:45:15 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latin - 2 changes by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 18 changes by nglekhoi
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14:37<George>Hi.
14:38<George>Is there a way to display current TE in realistic acceleration?
14:39<George>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RealisticAcceleration
14:39<George>TE = min (TE{SUB()}eng{SUB}, TE{SUB()}max{SUB})
14:40<George>F{SUB()}incl{SUB}
14:46<frosch123>isn't it shown in the train details?
14:47<Demosthenex>any shortcuts for changing time in a timetable i should know? doubleclicking doesn't let me edit
14:47<frosch123>check hotkeys.cfg
14:47<frosch123>and possibly add your own ones
14:56<@peter1138>only the current max TE is shown
15:04<@Terkhen>hello
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15:12<George>peter1138: and how can I see current TE, not max TE
15:12<andythenorth>hi Terkhen :)
15:13<@peter1138>you can't, there's no particular need
15:13<@peter1138>maybe a debug window shows it
15:14<George>how can I see it in debug window?
15:23<@peter1138>try the usual debug windows, i doubt its shown though
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15:42<@peter1138>they're justified
15:42<@peter1138>and they're ancient
15:43<@peter1138>bound for mu mu land
15:47<andythenorth>all aboard all aboard
15:48<andythenorth>but have you got? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chill_Out
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16:04*andythenorth wants to see this http://jamescauty.com/work/the-aftermath-dislocation-principle/
16:04<andythenorth>it was at dismaland, but that’s over now
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17:35<Demosthenex>omg, so what's the fastest way to reconfigure 20 trains (ie: cars)
17:39<Demosthenex>i know how to replace engines, but to reconfigure all the wagons...
17:39<Demosthenex>i'm likely to just sell them all :P
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18:42<FLHerne>Demosthenex: You can replace wagons the same way as engines
18:44<FLHerne>Demosthenex: Where it says "Replacing: Engines", toggle it
18:44<FLHerne>If the new wagons are longer than the old ones, you might need to toggle wagon removal
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18:52<Demosthenex>FLHerne: only with replacements for the same cargo type
18:53<FLHerne>Well, yes
18:53<FLHerne>Generally that's what people want to do?
19:06<Demosthenex>i needed to reconfigure the wagons on 20 trains :P
19:06<Demosthenex>i just sold them all
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19:28<Wolf01>'night
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21:22<Eddi|zuHause>so, who took a bite out of the moon?
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 28 00:00:05 2015