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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-10-11

---Logopened Sun Oct 11 00:00:22 2015
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02:38<andythenorth>o/
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02:48<Supercheese>or not
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03:39<@Alberth>andy has an on/off blinking relation with the channel :p
03:39<@Alberth>moin andy :)
03:41<andythenorth>hi hi
03:55*andythenorth horsing
03:57<@Alberth>enough pig wrestling done? :)
03:59<andythenorth>for now
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04:31<fjb>Moin
04:40<@Alberth>moin
04:40<fjb>Moin Alberth
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05:37<andythenorth>quak
05:39<frosch123>hola
05:55<@Alberth>moin
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07:07<Fahrradkette>hey guys, I've been wondering if building diagonal rail tunnels or bridges (in order to build flyovers) will be possible in like n years. I did not find that particular feature on the requested_features list in the wiki, all I found was some statement saying tunnels will be easier because they're implemented as a pair of warpholes.
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07:22<@Alberth>diagonal tunnels and bridges are unlikely to happen in the current map layout, imho
07:23<@Alberth>maybe even ever
07:23<@Alberth>I wouldn't know how to draw a diagonal tunnel end
07:24<@Alberth>diagonal track is not in the middle of a tile
07:27<@Alberth>the problem looks similar to diagonal going up a level, which is currently also not possible
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07:42<Fahrradkette>I see. Thanks for clarification, I appreciate it.
07:52*andythenorth wonders if he could just make FIRS
07:52<andythenorth>and somebody else could do the vehicle sets :P
07:52<andythenorth>too many unfinished at once
07:58<@Alberth>yeah, starting a new project is way easier than finishing one :(
07:58<@Alberth>but I would say you can
08:11*andythenorth wonders if the problem is just Tropic
08:11<andythenorth>boring landscape
08:11<@Alberth>too many unfinished tropic vehicles?
08:12<andythenorth>unfinished South American roster for Iron Horse
08:12<@Alberth>oh
08:12<andythenorth>lots of brown wagons on brown landscape
08:12<andythenorth>also, maybe Busy Bee isn’t so good with FIRS basic economies
08:12<andythenorth>not a lot of variety
08:14<@Alberth>why are wagons brown, skidlow usually posts wagons with many colours :)
08:14<@Alberth>not exactly south america though
08:16<andythenorth>they’re copied from NARS and such
08:16<andythenorth>they need repainting
08:16<andythenorth>also…tropic has no mountains, ever
08:16<andythenorth>so boring :P
08:18<@Alberth>it's for the flatlanders building large flat junctions :p
08:18<andythenorth>flatland is right :)
08:19<andythenorth>@seen danmack
08:19<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 15 hours, 2 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <DanMacK> It would help if I extracted the grf from the TAR
08:19*andythenorth bbl
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08:22<argoneus>probably slightly offtopic question...but
08:22<argoneus>how aids would android dev be for a bachelor thesis? I never dev'd for android
08:23<@Alberth>"aids" ?
08:24<argoneus>like
08:24<argoneus>annoying
08:24<argoneus>I don't want to do a webdev thesis because it's obnoxious
08:24<argoneus>it has to be javascript web2.0 responsive mobile friendly and whatever
08:24<argoneus>I have no idea how android is
08:24<@Alberth>me neither :(
08:25<argoneus>:(
08:25<__ln__>"android dev" alone is not a good thesis topic
08:26<@Alberth>it's just java, I guess?
08:34<argoneus>well
08:34<argoneus>it's topics like
08:34<argoneus>"a java application that does X with an android client"
08:34<argoneus>and I'm worried about the client part
08:34<argoneus>since I've never done android
08:53<__ln__>why pick a topic you're not familiar with nor maybe not interested in?
08:56<@Alberth>usually the goal is to learn something you don't already know :)
08:58<__ln__>and in bachelor's thesis that something is the skill of academic writing.
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09:05<@Alberth>as well as structuring a subject
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09:53<drac_boy>hi
09:54<drac_boy>just curious if anyone here had an itx board or thinking of one?
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10:04<frosch123>i had an atx board once
10:08<drac_boy>did you have 5-7 cards in it? ;) and as usual hi frosch :)
10:08<frosch123>hmm, let's count
10:09<frosch123>network 10/100, graphics, scsi scanner, multi i/o, sound
10:09<frosch123>yeah, that's 5
10:10<drac_boy>let me guess... P2/P3 or athlon? :)
10:10<frosch123>K6 II
10:11<drac_boy>figured.. lot of things went onboard after this era more or less
10:11<frosch123>it had isa and floppy on board
10:11<frosch123>and like one serial and parallel port
10:12<frosch123>s/isa/ata/
10:12<drac_boy>mm .. heh well anyway I'm still undecided about trying to find a nice itx or to just basically stop bothering with x86 too much (other than for laptop) .. but thats a bit unrelated so I wouldn't go too much into it unless you didn't mind
10:12<frosch123>it also had some isa slots i think :)
10:12<drac_boy>frosch for the record if you wanted to know.. you could actually buy an used board that combined a sandybridge cpu with up to 3 isa slots next to the usual pcie+pci slots ... crazy I know ;)
10:13<frosch123>nah, i figured the less stuff there is on a board, the better it runs
10:13<frosch123>if mainboards get too complex, they are buggy as hell
10:14<drac_boy>frosch well...I think part of the problem stems from pcb .. why use an entire separate pcb card at cost when the same audio chips could fit into a 10x5cm empty space on the motherboard itself?
10:15<drac_boy>but yeah some things (niche or not) like multiply digital audio streams or tv tuners still have a purpose existing as addon cards nevertheless
10:15<drac_boy>or a*
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10:21<drac_boy>frosch but anyway what're you doing now?
10:22<frosch123>wondering whether to stop in singapore or bangkok when travelling europe<->australia
10:23<drac_boy>ah...well have fun with that
10:23<frosch123>the pondering? :p
10:23*drac_boy wants to whack you with an empty bag for saying that? :P
10:25<frosch123>my insane globetrotting brother decides to marry at the other end of the world. now i have to figure out how to make the best out of that trip :p
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10:27<frosch123>but none of the stations appear nerdy
10:32<drac_boy>you're strange? ;) heh
10:32<frosch123>i guess so :)
10:38<drac_boy>I'm just looking at some misc websites now (a little bit computer peripherals, a little bit re upcoming model board, and re sorting out if pickup or not)
10:38<drac_boy>slow day otherwise
10:42<drac_boy>if getting a pickup*
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10:45*drac_boy whacks demon with a flaming fork?
10:45<drac_boy>heh..sorry...slow day for me here :)
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11:32<Wolf01>hi hi
11:39<@Alberth>o/
11:40<@Alberth>kitchen full?
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12:02<Wolf01>no, i just finished it
12:03<Wolf01>and it sits on my bed... i think i'll sleep in the chair :|
12:04<Wolf01>it's too big to fit between the chair's armrests
12:08<@Alberth>it sounds like the cat of eddi, taking all the good space :)
12:09<Wolf01>cats and lego have many things in common, taking the space for them is one of these
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is that once lego occupies a space, it occupies that exact space. a cat occupies all the spaces seemingly simultaneously
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>as soon as you observe a space, a cat occupies that space
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>(it doesn't help that there are two of them, either :p)
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13:16<andythenorth>o/
13:16<@Alberth>hai
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> nah, i figured the less stuff there is on a board, the better it runs <-- all the chipsets still have the ISA stuff builtin, just there are no connections on the board.
14:02*andythenorth considers removing FIRS Basic economies
14:02<andythenorth>because, eh, what’s the point of them?
14:02<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
14:02<andythenorth>:P
14:07<Wolf01>o/
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14:20<@Alberth>people not getting overwhelmed by the full economy?
14:21<@Alberth>it is not required that an author plays with all things he makes :p
14:24<andythenorth>maybe FIRS Tropic Basic just lacks a bit of depth
14:24<andythenorth>Temperate Basic is fun, I have played it numerous times
14:25<frosch123>maybe start a poll :p
14:25<frosch123>i liked the drama around the last one
14:27<andythenorth>yeah :)
14:27<andythenorth>that was fun for a bit :)
14:29<andythenorth>hmm
14:29<andythenorth>Tropic basic has no depth of chains
14:29<andythenorth>most cargos are trivially available
14:30<frosch123>funnily that is the main case in default ttd
14:30<frosch123>steel is the only secondary cargo
14:31<andythenorth>yup
14:32<@Alberth>people wrongly ignore toyland :p
14:32<frosch123>toyland has no secondary cargo either
14:34<andythenorth>maybe I should just put the fishing chain in
14:34<andythenorth>or timber
14:35<frosch123>i kind of like the settings of ogfx+industries
14:35<frosch123>user selection of certain chains, or simplification via ports
14:36<frosch123>but well, just "on"/"off" is likely no good plan
14:36<frosch123>everyone would go for all "on"
14:36<frosch123>so, ideally some would have "a" or "b" instead of "on" or "off"
14:37<frosch123>like: alcohol source -> fruit or grain
14:38<frosch123>food source -> fish or farm
14:38<frosch123>wood product -> paper or building supplies
14:39<frosch123>port: supplies from primary or secondary cargos
14:43<andythenorth>I think the Basic idea is ok, for some reason Tropic isn’t fun though
14:43<andythenorth>usually this ends up with a tweak, not a rebuild :P
14:43<andythenorth>usually
14:45<andythenorth>food is quite dominant
14:46<andythenorth>just adding fish won’t help, because fish -> food
14:46<andythenorth>could do fish -> export cargo
14:46<andythenorth>but that’s also broing
14:46<andythenorth>boring *
14:51<frosch123>so, you want some secondary cargo?
14:51<frosch123>or some other supplies?
14:51<frosch123>or more primaries?
14:56<frosch123>for more secondary cargo, remove some stuff from the ports
14:56<frosch123>e.g. add some industries that produce vehicle parts
14:56<frosch123>either from rubber or from ore or stuff
14:57<andythenorth>that is a good idea
14:57<andythenorth>or I add timber
14:57<frosch123>generally there is very little in the metal area
14:57<andythenorth>yes
14:58<frosch123>otoh, you can focus more on food
14:58<andythenorth>I have an industry that can produce vehicle parts already
14:58<frosch123>and add more processed food
14:58<andythenorth>I could produce sugar instead of food, at food refinery
14:58<andythenorth>as export cargo
14:58<frosch123>hmm, though food is mostly two stage :/
14:59<andythenorth>food is over-provided I think
14:59<frosch123>maybe replace one of the supplies with animal food
15:00<frosch123>so, meat is no primary, but a secondary
15:00<frosch123>yeah, i guess turning livestock into a secondary cargo could work
15:04<frosch123>no new graphics or cargos needed :)
15:04<frosch123>add a grain source, and deliver beans and grain to the ranch
15:06<frosch123>export fruit directly
15:06<frosch123>and make the food processing plant accept beans and livestock
15:06<frosch123>all food is chili con carne then
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15:25<andythenorth>ha
15:25<andythenorth>chili con carne cargo :P
15:25*frosch123 senses a cargo class discussion
15:27<andythenorth>‘tasty’
15:27<andythenorth>‘reheatable'
15:27<andythenorth>‘non-vegetarian'
15:36<Supercheese>'spicy' on a scale of 1-5
15:37*andythenorth plans to make Basic economies a little bigger
15:39<V453000>signals in tunnels
15:39<frosch123>i am against inserters in underground belts
15:40<V453000>inserters aint signals, factorio has its own rail signals :P
15:40<frosch123>but no tunnels :p
15:40<V453000>yet :)
15:44<frosch123>if you move more stuff underground, then please pieps :p
15:44<frosch123>while underground pipes are said to loose less pressure
15:44<frosch123>i mainly use them because they are not in the way
15:45<frosch123>well, and sometimes because they do not connect to all sides
15:45<frosch123>or add a jetpack to fly over them :p
15:46<V453000>legacy of the void in less than a month :P
15:47<frosch123>i completely lost track of lotv, at some point it turned into chaotically changing and reverting random shit
15:47<Supercheese>frosch123: I made a mod to let you walk over pipes: http://www.factorioforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=16476
15:48<Supercheese>It was one of the very first things I did in Factorio
15:48<V453000>I didnt really follow it from the start, but I want to play the campaign :)
15:48<V453000>haha Supercheese <3
15:48<Supercheese>there is also a separate jetpack mod
15:48<Supercheese>seriously though, I kept getting blocked off by my own damn buildings, and had to fix it
15:49<frosch123>i like comparing factorio modding with ottd modding :p
15:49<frosch123>bobs mods are like ecs
15:49<frosch123>way too big and completely out of scale in some parts
15:50<frosch123>all the mods are mostly exploring stuff currently
15:50<frosch123>i guess at some point there will be some which take ideas but scale them somewhat sane :)
15:51<V453000>yeah that I have to admit
15:51<Supercheese>I might make a zeppelin mod, because zeppelins are the best things
15:51<V453000>most mods have some idea
15:51<V453000>and bring it WAY the fuck over the top
15:52<V453000>at the same time, many hardcore players find that perfectly fitting
15:52<Supercheese>airship trains :U
15:52<V453000>at the same time though, there are many great little tool mods
15:52<V453000>which is amazing
15:52<V453000>anyway
15:52<V453000>gnite
15:52<V453000>work tomorrow <3
15:52<Supercheese>good night, don't let the biters bite
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16:09<andythenorth>hmm
16:09<andythenorth>maybe I could have ‘minerals’ cargo :P
16:09<andythenorth>produced by ‘mines’
16:09<andythenorth>:P
16:09*andythenorth considers Salt for Tropic Basic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt#/media/File:Salinas_de_Maras,_Peru-20Sept2013.jpg
16:10<andythenorth>but maybe Salt is just Chemicals?
16:10<Wolf01>the next step will be a vespene refinery?
16:11<andythenorth>different economy ;)
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16:14<ryouma>i can't use openttd because the fonts are too small. if i do -r 640x480, it is fine, but there are some things that don't work. <andythenorth> suggested game options -> interface size -> double size, but there is no "interface size" option. i am running 1.4.4 (debian jessie). also "you’ll also need max zoom in settings to be 2x or 4x". all i notice is zoom_max. it is set to 5. is that ok?
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16:18<@Alberth>https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_troubleshooting#My_User_Interface_is_too_small_to_read_.2F_My_font_is_unreadable_or_faulty
16:19<@Alberth>standard FAQ question :)
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16:24<andythenorth>perhaps interface zoom is only in 1.5.x
16:25<andythenorth>not sure
16:25*andythenorth builds from trunk
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16:33<ryouma>one issue is that some resolutions that i try seem to freeze my x windows. i get a black screen and mouse and nothing else. i have to kill fluxbox to fix it.
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably the fault of your video driver
16:39<ryouma>i had already tried the font size change, and don't remember the issue. it might be that all the icons were too small to figure out what they are?
16:39<ryouma>is there a way to pan without the minimap?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>right click or arrow keys?
16:40<ryouma>right click just provides info on what you click on; drag does nothing. was hoping mouse-only for accessibility reasons.
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>well, click on something that is not a button :p
16:41<ryouma>that pans? didn't work for me.
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>have you ever played a game before?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>also, there is a setting for left-click scrolling and for edge-scrolling, i believe.
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>i could be imagining this, i never used those...
16:49<ryouma>Eddi|zuHause: not sure how to interpret your question's intention. felt rude.
16:49<andythenorth>nah, he’s just being direct :)
16:49*andythenorth wonders seriously if ‘metal ore’ is a valid cargo for Basic economies
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: no, i'm just german.
16:50<ryouma>drag truly did nothing. questioning whether i played a game before soudns like saying it should do something.
16:50<ryouma>i found the option to pan, which it calls scrolling. it works now.
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: i meant, how familiar are you with game interfaces in general
16:51<ryouma>i have played simcity long ago and some rts, including freecraft
16:52<ryouma>i have been very frustrated trying to get even one game on debian to even work. openttd is the closest to working, but it is still not there.
16:52<ryouma>(freecraft worked on wheezy)
16:52<ryouma>and working, for me, means a legible font and legible icons
16:53<ryouma>includes*
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: if you're not willing to update to 1.5, you can try the old "biggui" grf, which was meant for that case
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>but things might be unpolished in such an old version...
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16:55<penut>is there a way for me to see change logs on Openttd versions?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is a changelog link on the download page
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>also, there should be a changelog file in your download
16:56<ryouma>the reason i don't know if it is my graphics card is that 1280x720 is the resolution i always use on my monitor
16:57<@Rubidium>for ryouma I would've suggested to just install the openttd binary from unstable, but due to some library migrations that's definitely not an option anymore
16:57<ryouma>i am looking up biggui now. i presume this is not on debian? did not find it there. i clicked on wiki "online content" which was pointed to and it is not there either.
16:57<Eddi|zuHause><ryouma> i have played simcity long ago and some rts, including freecraft <-- i see. with this background, edge-scrolling is probably more familiar than right-click-scrolling
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: it was probably removed from online content, due to being obsolete
16:59<@Rubidium>biggui is still downloadable in trunk ("opengfx + biggui" that is)
16:59<ryouma>hmm, right click does scroll. i thought i tried that before. i did not find edge scrolling but panning and scrolling are fine.
16:59<ryouma>Eddi|zuHause: the faq stillpoints to the nonexistent download
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: if the removal was done the correct way, then it should still be possible to download in the ingame content download menu
17:02<@Rubidium>biggui is also downloadable from online content in 1.3, so it should also be downloadable in 1.4
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17:02<@Rubidium>anyhow, good night
17:03<ryouma>ok i got biggui to work. it seems ok with 800x600 and slightly smaller fonts. although i don't know if 800x600 will contain all dialog boxes.
17:04<andythenorth>probably won't
17:04<andythenorth>occupational hazard tbh
17:12*andythenorth - bed
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20:04<Wolf01>'night
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21:33<ryouma>openttd is in full screen, so it's not possible to alt-tab to my other windows briefly. what does one typically do here? just quit out and take your notes and then start the game again? it crashes if i click on the fullscreen checkbox.
21:33<JezK>use windowed mode
21:33<JezK>or fullscreen windowed mode
21:34<ryouma>JezK: how does one do that? i clicked below the resolution dropdown and it crashed. but kept playing music for a hwile.
21:34<JezK>well i'm not sure why it crashes
21:34<JezK>sounds like a bug
21:34<JezK>should file a bug report if there's not one already
21:34<ryouma>i do openttd -r 800x600 because that is the one that works for me
21:35<ryouma>i ahven't yet gotten to the point of playing the game yet. still working on it.
21:41<ryouma>can you make pop up dialogs when you click on something appear under the pointer? or in the middle of the screen? they show up on the left top currently.
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21:58<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: no, the window positioning rules are hardcoded
21:59<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: you can switch between windowed and fullscreen with alt+enter
22:00<Eddi|zuHause>ryouma: but again, this crash is probably due to your video driver
22:22<ryouma>thanks. is there a mouse event that will quit or must you use keyboard?
22:23<ryouma>strangely audio volume control does nothing
22:28<ryouma>i am trying to downlaod the beginnger's tutorial the way the wiki says, but the download button is greyed out when i select "beginner's tutorial"
22:28<Eddi|zuHause>you can quit with the mouse, in the same menu where you can save the game
22:28<ryouma>thanks
22:28<ryouma>if i select to go to website, the game disappears and my regular desktop appears
22:29<ryouma>is there a tutorial that can be downloaded or run?
22:29<Eddi|zuHause>i have never tried a tutorial for this game
22:29<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, other than reading the original manual from 1994...
22:30<ryouma>ok, i will stick with the web tutorial then i guess
22:30<ryouma>dunno why greyed out
22:31<Eddi|zuHause>you have to click on the checkbox to select something for download, before you can actually download something
22:36<ryouma>ohhhhhh that might work
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 12 00:00:24 2015