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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-10-18

---Logopened Sun Oct 18 00:00:31 2015
00:11<sim-al2>A lot of newgrfs can be downloaded using the ingame browser too
00:11<sim-al2>For 1.5.2: https://www.openttd.org/en/download-stable
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03:28<@Alberth>moin
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05:39<_dp_>ha, I think I know what ryouma problem was, advertised switch is off by default
05:39<_dp_>I stumbled upon it too recently when trying android version
05:40<_dp_>even gave it to my friend who never played openttd and asked to join any server
05:40<_dp_>and he couldn't
05:41<_dp_>think it should be called smth like LAN/Internet and be on internet by default (and start scan when you open window)
05:50<@Alberth>that's against the idea that a user should give explicit permission to access external resources
05:51<@Alberth>just like the game not automagically downloading updates without your permission
05:54<_dp_>then add a dialog with big button "I agree"))
05:54<_dp_>coz now it only fits the idea that in mp we don't need noobs who can't even google :P
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06:05<blathijs>"Advertised" is not really a self-explanatory setting, I guess a LAN games / Advertised internet games setting might be more clear?
06:05<blathijs>or something similar
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06:16<@Alberth>moin
06:18<frosch123>hola
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>it WAS called LAN/Internet a few years ago, and someone changed it because he thought it wasn't clear enough
06:50<_dp_>lol
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07:04<fjb>Moin
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08:12<Wolf01>o/
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09:19<planetmaker>hi hi :)
09:19<frosch123>hola, back from jupiter?
09:25<fjb>Moin planetmaker
09:25<fjb>Quak frosch123
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09:44<planetmaker>back from the Netherlands :D
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09:58<@Alberth>:)
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10:32<@Terkhen>hello
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12:54<andythenorth>o/
12:55<Raiz>\o
12:56<@Alberth>moin
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13:19*DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
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13:24<@Alberth>hit & run :p
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14:46<andythenorth>he came, he went
14:46<Wolf01>he came, he saw, he won
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18:27<Wolf01>'night
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18:39<greeter>greetings all
18:41<FLHerne>greeter: Evening again
18:41<greeter>what's new?
18:42<FLHerne>Not much
18:43<greeter>ah, no news is good news
18:43<greeter>kind of binging on the game, and on irc, since i won't be on a computer tomorrow
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19:53<tipsyTentacle>Hello! How does one plan networks? Like, where to place mainlines and all?
19:57<greeter>hmm, to be honest i'm not really sure. i've more or less been making it up as i go along
19:57<greeter>you might be able to get some inspiration from the pages which describe track layouts though
20:02<tipsyTentacle>Hm... okay! Thanks.
20:03<greeter>https://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_path_signal_layouts i find the two way triple track layout for handling main lines the most useful. with path based signaling and switches in the right places, you can have an awful lot of trains on the tracks before you run into deadlocks
20:06<tipsyTentacle>Ohhh interesting. This will be useful. (:
20:07<greeter>some of those are more advanced than others. there's some i'm too afraid to try lol
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20:08<greeter>but i'm not the best person to dispense this kind of advice. i see screen shots on the wiki and main site of really nice, slick, clean looking networks. then i look at mine and it looks like someone on crack built them
20:09<tipsyTentacle>LOL I am sure you're just not giving yourself enough credit. :P
20:10<greeter>oh the networks i build get the job done, they just look ugly lol
20:11<greeter>and i don't plan them out well enough since i'm constantly making changes... making one way tracks two way tracks or vice versa, or making one way tracks one way in the opposite direction
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20:13<tipsyTentacle>Oh. I see. Well, it's hard to plan for the future sometimes ];
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20:13<greeter>lol true
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20:20<greeter>and i just did one of those things lol
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20:26<drac_boy>anyone here interested in Sentinel locomotives?
20:26<greeter>what are those?
20:31<drac_boy>greeter well to sum it up...
20:32<drac_boy>uk designed (there were a few noteable examples sold oversea) locomotive that was basically an advanced single-man vertical&horizontal boiler steam locomotive .. most of them were for shunting purposes but you had a few steam-powered railcars too nevertheless
20:33<drac_boy>some of them almost look just like a diesel shunter locomotive except for lot of white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe (instead of diesel-burning smoke)
20:33<drac_boy>one sec..
20:34<greeter>ok. hmm
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20:35<drac_boy>this was one of the earlier diesel-lookish model greeter http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-14569-0-26353000-1362314127.jpg
20:36<drac_boy>the water tank is near nose (re weight balance) .. pistons are under the additional access covers near middle .. and the vertical boiler is within view of the cab
20:36<drac_boy>the one giveaway (other than the odd hood) could be the lack of siderods which were typical on just about any gas/diesel shunter locomotives around that time
20:37<drac_boy>these sentinel locomotive had the piston driving a chain/shaft drive to both axles internally
20:38<greeter>interesting looking vehicle for sure
20:38<tipsyTentacle>Interesting
20:39<drac_boy>greeter heres a WWII-dated "mass production" design (but only LNER amassed a large grouping of them) to give you an idea of how the interior layout functioned http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7BxsqoVqUQQ/TihFo0zSanI/AAAAAAAAARA/rWJVrdBYZqQ/s1600/Y3.jpg
20:39<drac_boy>that particular boxy-looking one was designed for like 10-20kph operation which suited its purpose for any kind of shuntings or light works with only one single man needed (no fireman etc)
20:40<greeter>well i don't know much about trains, but it sure looks interesting
20:40<drac_boy>oh yeah and that one is a shaft driven one if that wasn't already obvious :)
20:40<drac_boy>greeter well sentinel was a bit unique .. btw it was not only one-man locomotives they built...here's a little surprise...
20:41<drac_boy>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Steam_powered_coach.jpg
20:41<drac_boy>hows that for a vertical boiler (you can see the bottom of it in fact) ... bus :P
20:42<drac_boy>the lower weight and higher power of diesel tractors/buses killed off most of sentinel's steam market eventually tho as you can already imagine
20:43<tipsyTentacle>:O
20:43<greeter>looks rustic :-)
20:43<tipsyTentacle>Cool.
20:45<drac_boy>greeter heh :)
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20:47<drac_boy>greeter if you want something a little strange try this http://www.modelrailroading.nl/Articulation/images/netherlands/LTM%2051/LTM51-2.jpg
20:47<drac_boy>that was the only one garratt design that doesn't exactly look like a garratt!
20:48<greeter>that certainly looks different lol
20:49<drac_boy>inside pistons (the only lone garratt example of that afaik) ... and the small coal+water supply was carried on the boiler chassis instead of either power chassis's (their idea was that there wouldn't be any front-vs-rear weight imbalances due to fuel useage differences)
20:49<drac_boy>it nevertheless did work well (even if it was only an one-off example) tho
20:49<greeter>nice
20:50<greeter>hmm, cargo ship is a really slow way to move coal around :-S
20:50<drac_boy>greeter btw the africa garratts actually eventually often carried a water tender with them as to more or less keep some additional weight down on the drivers under the locomotive's water tank
20:50<greeter>hmm
20:51<drac_boy>(yep the tender water was pumped over into the locomotive water as wanted)
20:52<greeter>i see
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20:55<Gantradies>testing
20:55<greeter>ok
20:56<Gantradies> hey guys. erm.. im running a server in a VM on a friends rack, know enough abotu the command promnpt and teh server commands to do not break anything, is there a simple way to set a dedicated server to automatically load the last autosave without anything external, liek a command line option/switch or something?
20:57<tipsyTentacle>make a shell script and put it into the startup dir?
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21:03<greeter>why do i always laugh at this game whenever bad things happen to me?
21:03<tipsyTentacle>Tell us what happened! :D
21:04<greeter>half my ships are lost, because the first order in the queue was about a thousand tiles away from the depot
21:05<drac_boy>greeter btw there is a different kind of articulated locomotives that for some reason seem to have only lasted in the very early years then wasn't heard of so much afterward..let me try find that name for you...
21:06<greeter>alright then
21:07<drac_boy>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/VSB-Eb-2-5Nr25.jpg/800px-VSB-Eb-2-5Nr25.jpg that look like a 0-4-6 to someone who just knows that a steam locomotive is a steam locomotive right? :)
21:07<greeter>bought the ships in january, it's april and they're still nowhere near the first stop
21:08<greeter>now when i think of older trains, that's the style of design i picture
21:09<drac_boy>greeter well what if I told you its really made up of two separate chassis sections? :)
21:10<greeter>it looks like one solid piece there. how did they do that?
21:11<drac_boy>its really one chassis carrying the usual cab/boiler with drive axles .. then a separate chassis carrying the rear tender section .. and what becomes strange here is that the tender is anchored into the locomotive chassis in a way that part of its weight transfers onto the drive axles (think alike to a car trailer that has its axle set all the way back so some of the cargo weight ends up onto the car's rear axle, not best ana
21:11<drac_boy>so basically its a longer locomotive with the curvation flexibility of a shorter locomotive
21:12<drac_boy>I imagine in that photo the break happens just between the cabfloor and the fuel box
21:12<drac_boy>not sure tho
21:12<drac_boy>its an odd idea tho.. a 0-4-6 not exactly being a 0-4-6 :)
21:14<greeter>hmm
21:16<drac_boy>greeter oh and you know how the whyte system works for steam locomotives? (re 0-6-0, 0-4-4-0, etc)
21:16<greeter>well i've never heard of the whyte system actually :-S trains are far from being my specialty
21:17<drac_boy>greeter well there were a few odd locomotives that made mock of the system .. like eg this http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/belgian/syss809.jpg it would had been called a 4-2-2 but that implies one driver axle ... can you can ops :)
21:18<greeter>hmm?
21:18<drac_boy>no wonder that many countries used the UIC (originally based from germany, no surprise) system which could better count powered vs unpowered axles
21:18<drac_boy>even electric/diesel used the UIC system more or less (like eg B-B or Bo'Bo')
21:20<drac_boy>greeter either way that aside, just asking if you recognize this? :) http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/proto/tgv001vsg.jpg
21:21<greeter>can't say that i do, but then again trains are not a popular mode of transport where i live
21:22<drac_boy>greeter well thats the tgv (aka france's original high speed train) but its not the one everyone would think of tho... this is a gas turbine example
21:22<greeter>interesting, not diesel?
21:22<drac_boy>funny timing tho..they built it then the 1974 oil crisis happened and the politic was to go for full electrification instead
21:22<drac_boy>greeter..diesel would be heavier and with less power .. not something you want in a light fast trainset
21:23<drac_boy>the one drawback to any kind of turbine designs tho is the high fuel useage even at idle (so they were best for limited/non-stop trains of any sort but even then)
21:24<greeter>ah, true. was just thinking that diesel might be preferred because it's more efficient
21:24<drac_boy>even one usa railroad tried a few different coal/gas turbine locomotives in different duties but eventually all the good ones still left got reassigned to flatland country running which best matched their turbine units
21:24<greeter>hmm
21:25<drac_boy>https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d2/70/8d/d2708d51856c9139822e6535be480476.jpg heres one of the 'smaller' gas-turbine unit at home on a long nonstop freight run https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d2/70/8d/d2708d51856c9139822e6535be480476.jpg
21:26<drac_boy>err..sorry about the double links :|
21:26<drac_boy>and http://www.posters57.com/images/categories/UNION-PACIFIC-RR--JET-AGE--GAS-TURBINE-POSTER(1).jpg coal-turbine version (with high power output from the look of the additional body)
21:26<greeter>just a small engine lol
21:27<greeter>would love to work for an outfit like that. unfortunately they don't hire a huge number of people like me
21:27<drac_boy>greeter well the 'small' one was a single body unit with fuel contained ... the 'big' one were multi-unit (and some of them even reused old steam locomotive tender with the water baffle torched out to extend the coal capacity
21:27<greeter>i see
21:27<drac_boy>the second link is a good example of the latter type
21:28<greeter>hmm
21:29<drac_boy>greeter mind you it was not only turbine locomotives that were "supersized" on the UP rails..let me show you a diesel-electric thats really big...
21:29<greeter>ok
21:31<drac_boy>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/9/7/7197.1265516308.jpg look at that BIG 8-axle unit compared to the very common 4-axle unit behind it :p
21:31<drac_boy>that thing was actually a twin-engine unit
21:31<drac_boy>(two 645 blocks for anyone else here who may want to know)
21:32<drac_boy>come to think about it *that* is the only 8-axle diesel locomotive I know of, everyone else even oversea only had 4 or 6 axles
21:32<drac_boy>heh
21:33<greeter>that could move a lot of cargo. in fact i suspect it's doing just that
21:34<drac_boy>greeter you want call this a "butt-nose"? it seem to be like someone took a big sledgehammer and smashed the nose inward :p http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/3/6/8636.1296503601.jpg
21:34<drac_boy>note how its much bigger looking than that one little standard 4-axle diesel locomotive just behind it once again
21:34<greeter>indeed
21:35<greeter>i'd say at least twice the length
21:35<drac_boy>greeter but anyhow to cut the story short .. there is an earlier example of high-hp locomotive that was built oversea for obvious reason..one sec to get photo before I continue this..
21:35<greeter>alright
21:36<greeter>no rush, i'm still cruising news headlines. history is about to be made here lol
21:43<drac_boy>http://sp9010.ncry.org/photos/9004xx01.jpg short story is a few of these were built in germany then shipped oversea to work for Southern Pacific which had kept trying to ask emd/alco/etc for more than 1200-2000hp output and getting nowwhere with them
21:44<drac_boy>these thing were a bit massive (even the thick chassis depth gives that away too) and had like 3500hp per unit on hand
21:45<drac_boy>and as expected...running these units in heavy trains through the mountain for a long time finally forced the american builders to upper the hp race :)
21:47<drac_boy>(and yep as expected when these units came out SP did buy up a few groups of them)
21:48<greeter>hmm
21:48<greeter>long straight track, i bet the engineers don't care for that so much lol
21:48<drac_boy>greeter its a funny story when you think about it..ask the local builder, get rebuffed, buy something foreign instead, local builder get all worked up trying to match it :)
21:48<greeter>hmm
21:51<drac_boy>greeter about pressing the hand of the local builder...when emd finally built some 3000hp units five years later .. guess who bought a modest number of them? SP of course
21:51<greeter>nice
21:51<drac_boy>hard to say but I think that the german 3500hp units made emd build that 3000hp unit of their own :)
21:52<greeter>hmm
21:52<drac_boy>greeter as for long straight tracks..that was typical of many lines between middle and west usa where theres lot of empty land and not as many urban sprawls (other than for some of calfornia)
21:53<greeter>exactly. no obstacles to building long straight tracks. highways are the same way
21:53<greeter>i once drove for four hours going due west from cancun. not one turn or hill. most boring trip ever
21:53<drac_boy>these yellow turbine locomotives I mentioned earlier on? they could be expected to run for several long hours nonstop just to get from one yard to another yard at all :)
21:54<drac_boy>oh that reminds me greeter...a funny photo..I don't think its online but I'll describe it...
21:54<greeter>alright
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21:55<drac_boy>it was of a streamlined diesel locomotive somewhere in calfornia .. running at high speed "with its air conditioning in effect" .. you want guess what that really meant? :)
21:56<greeter>hmm
21:57<drac_boy>the nose door was opened letting big gust of cooler wind into the cab nonstop ... this somewhat preceded mechanical a/c units on locomotives hehe :)
21:57<drac_boy>and just to give you an idea http://www.vistadome.com/postcards/emd_rr/up961.jpg you can see the outline of the door on front
21:57<greeter>ah i see. well air cooling is one way to get the job done lol
21:57<greeter>ah i see
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21:58<drac_boy>greeter .. yeah .. funny way to cool off the hot cab on a long ride tho :)
21:58<drac_boy>later units had optional (then standard) a/c units ... the retrofit ones could be obvious from the large white pod on top of cab roof (its almost the same thing you find on top of certain rv vans too mind you)
21:59<greeter>hmm
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22:02<drac_boy>greeter you want know of a slight odd usa-only railroad nickname? :)
22:03<greeter>what's that?
22:04<drac_boy>http://www.american-rails.com/images/TR49624.jpg that was called a cow-calf because the calf always follows its mother or in this case its two identical locomotives but one doesn't have a normal cab per se so its always running in MU with a cab-equipped unit
22:04<drac_boy>at least the cabless unit did have some basic controls under an access panel in case one had to be moved around on its own
22:04<drac_boy>still.. "cow-calf" .. i always wondered who first made up that term :)
22:07<greeter>hmm, a farmer who become an engineer maybe?
22:08<drac_boy>greeter well theres a lot of interesting railroad slangs from the old days in usa too tho...let me show you some examples...
22:08<greeter>ok
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22:13<drac_boy>soak her = dump fire and put all sander/brakes on NOW damn it ... hand bomber = later steam locomotives with no strokers so umm you get the idea there .. highball = lets go .. deadhead = ride unpaid to alternative barrack/job elsewhere .. hotshot = priority train (certain freights too)
22:13<drac_boy>oh and 'shin peeler' for when a mail worker has to drag a heavy mail bag on or off the train .. weird one heh
22:14<drac_boy>and I've never heard of it being used outside north america but if you hear "juice jack" it actually means an electric train because .. the juice is that thing from the overhead wires :P
22:14<greeter>lol sounds a lot like the electrical trade, there's some pretty odd slang in it too
22:18<drac_boy>:)
22:18<drac_boy>anyway going sleep now so bye ok?
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22:59<tipsyTentacle>Mew~ http://tipsyrailways.tumblr.com/post/131464240083/update-saga-line-addition-15-10-18igd
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23:50<sim-al2>tispy, are you planning to fill the whole map up?
23:51<tipsyTentacle>Yes.
23:51<tipsyTentacle>I am planning to.
23:52<sim-al2>Cool. Any freight so far, or is it all pax?
23:53<tipsyTentacle>All PAX. Bullet trains don't have cars for frieght and I don't want to build a second line on normal rails just for frieght.
23:53<tipsyTentacle>I certainly want to try doing both in my next game though.
23:54<sim-al2>Yeah, I like the Japan Set but the regular MUs are not set up right, and they get worse the longer you build them.
23:55<sim-al2>They add horsepower but no TE, so only the front end has it, thus acceleration gets worse with length
23:56<sim-al2>Freight cars are good though, I tried out a freight game with the Japan Set and the cars work well
23:56<tipsyTentacle>Yeah, I've noticed that most of my bullet trains have troubles climbing hills. :|
23:56<tipsyTentacle>Also, excuse me, but what does MU and TE mean?
23:57<sim-al2>MU=multiple unit, ie a train that has the power source (electric motors or diesel engines) distributed throughout the train, instead of in dedicated locmotives
23:57<sim-al2>TE=tractive effort, basically pulling power
23:57<tipsyTentacle>Oh okay, thanks~! (:
23:58<sim-al2>so for example, the 0 series Shinkansen had motors on ALL cars orginally
23:58<sim-al2>Most newer Shinkansen trains have the end cars unpowered though, but nearly all intermediate cars have motors
---Logclosed Mon Oct 19 00:00:30 2015