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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-10-19

---Logopened Mon Oct 19 00:00:30 2015
---Daychanged Mon Oct 19 2015
00:00<sim-al2>Some newer Tokyo area trains have combinations like 6 motors cars and 9 trailers though, mainly because newer technology allowed similar acceleration with less equipment, and thus cheaper building/maintenance
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00:05<tipsyTentacle>Oh, intresting.
00:05<tipsyTentacle>So, just to be sure, this means I should try to keep my trains short?
00:06<sim-al2>I think the problem is that the Japan Set was orginally made before "realistic acceleration" was added, so they only needed to add power to make the trains work correctly
00:06<sim-al2>Probably would help a lot with acceleration
00:07<sim-al2>As you've noticed, the longer trains will have more trouble with hills because of that problem
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00:12<tipsyTentacle>hm, is it possible to modify newgrf's?
00:14<sim-al2>Maybe, I don't know if the set has it;s source avaliable
00:15<tipsyTentacle>Oh. So they are not modifiable without the source, got it.
00:15<sim-al2>Yeah, it might be possible to decompile, but that's far beyond what I know about
00:16<sim-al2>They have a site but it seems to have been made long before OpenTTD was avaliable
00:17<tipsyTentacle>Oh well.
00:27<sim-al2>If you try an industry set like FIRS, the freight trains get really interesting
00:29<tipsyTentacle>FIRS looks like it would make the game a lot more complex than i need at the moment ];
00:29<tipsyTentacle>that is one cool looking train though. (:
00:36<sim-al2>Thanks, the container train takes fruit to the brewery, where along with a bunch of grain, alcohol gets made and taken to another city by a particuarly long set of trains
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00:37<sim-al2>I noticed you have local stations being served by your trains, do you have a hub and spoke kind of network, or do they work their way around the system?
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00:40<tipsyTentacle>Um, I don't really have a hub, I suppose. I didn't learn about hubs and mainlines and sidelines until I made most of the connections
00:40<tipsyTentacle>Typically though, there is a long line down the coast connecting all the cities, and then just a random city (near the middle) where it splits off to another region of cities
00:43<sim-al2>I see, for this system ( will trains travel from Outsu all the way to Saga?
00:44<tipsyTentacle>Oh no! That might be troublesome. I haven't triedd it though.
00:44<tipsyTentacle>Um, each coloured line has it own set of trains to service it.
00:45<tipsyTentacle>So... there would be 5 sets of trains (that only overlap at one station per pair of set) from Outsu to Saga
00:45<sim-al2>Heh, do you use cargo dist?
00:45<tipsyTentacle>Yes. (:
00:46<sim-al2>Lots of fun, if you have the demand it might be worth trying express trains serving the major cities end to end, that seems to help when a city gets congested
00:47<sim-al2>At least when I use cargo-dist, the transfer stations get crazy busy
00:48<tipsyTentacle>I had a problem with tons of people queueing up at Machida to get to Kasaoka. :|
00:48<tipsyTentacle>I "fixed" it by adding more trains to the blue line.
00:50<sim-al2>Heh, I love it when the passengers go to somewhat random destinations, but since this is virtual Japan you could say it's a popular shrine town
00:51<tipsyTentacle>Hehe I should make a newgrf with just religious buildings to prop down in towns
00:51<sim-al2>I think there's a newGRF with landmark buildings, I don't know how many of them are religious though
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00:53<tipsyTentacle>hm, the newGRF i found seems to be mostly German landmarks?
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00:58<sim-al2>There is a World Landmarks set, but it doesn't seem to have been developed recently
00:59<sim-al2>THe ones drawn seem to be German though :D
01:00<tipsyTentacle>hehe this is the one i found. :P
01:00<sim-al2>Woops lol
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06:36<Wolf01>hi o/
06:37<__ln__>how do you do
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07:49<V453000>how can monday be
07:50<V453000>"g" day :P
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08:04<planetmaker>hi :) By still being a holiday. Albeit my last :(
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11:13<@Alberth>hi hi
11:14<@Alberth>did I understand your question to GarryG correctly as in NML accepts use of switch names declared later, but it doesn't work?
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11:31<planetmaker>Alberth, yes, I ask whether he declares items in the correct order, thus first the item or switch definition. And only later referencing it.
11:31<planetmaker>Actually I'm not sure whether that's (still) required
11:31<planetmaker>But I think it is. It sounds like a grfspec limitation (not an NML one)
11:32<@Alberth>well, the order isn't that important to me, but I'd really like that NML gives an error instead of not working
11:32<@Alberth>nml can reshuffle order, at least theoretically
11:33<planetmaker>well, it gives 'undefined identifier', if I understood correctly. Unfortunately I don't know what modifications were necessary to make it work
11:33<planetmaker>yes, it can. And in some cases even does
11:33<planetmaker>But it can't necessarily break loops :)
11:34<@Alberth>likely you cannot even specify that in newgrf, so it's an error already
11:34<planetmaker>yup :)
11:36<Wolf01> well, isn't time to change the official channel language?
11:36<Wolf01>(i think i forgot an "it" somewhere)
11:37<@Alberth>hmm, no good substitute comes to mind
11:38<Wolf01>i can count to 2 in german
11:40<@Alberth>ah gut, so wir konnen denn Deutsch sprechen, ja
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11:40<@Alberth>guten abend Wormnest
11:42<@Alberth>in case you didn't read the logs Wormnest, speaking English appears to be dangerous: (17:36:14) Wolf01: well, isn't time to change the official channel language?
11:43<@Alberth>so we're considering switching language
11:43<planetmaker>luckily it might be as valid to draw the conclusion that English as your mother tongue is dangerous only ;)
11:44<planetmaker>so both of you are pretty safe, I guess :)
11:44<Wormnest>Well don´t we all die sooner or later, so we´re just postponing our own execution anyway :)
11:45<Wormnest>In any case off to diner now probably with some fat makers ;)
11:45<planetmaker>:) enjoy
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12:27<_dp_>planetmaker, how exactly GS can act in a god mode? Only few things are allowed with OWNER_DEITY.
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12:29<@Alberth>wouldn't it be logical to do those things then?
12:29<@Alberth>but it can also act as a company
12:29<planetmaker>_dp_, sure, not everything. But those complement the stuff done as company
12:30<_dp_>actually, only construction it can do with it is building bridges, tunnels and industries
12:31<_dp_>and acting as company implies dealing with stupid stuff like running out of money, authorities, etc
12:31<@Alberth>it can also give money, or take it
12:32<planetmaker>^ exactly. Authorities might be an issue
12:32<_dp_>not just may, it _is_ an isuue, I can't limit town growth in cb because of it
12:34<_dp_>as company that destroys houses gets banned :(
12:36<planetmaker>town growth can be directly controlled by GS, though
12:36<planetmaker>so limiting that via company action is rather stupid thing to do
12:37<_dp_>I'm trying to limit space for houses to prevent growing from outside in
12:37<_dp_>not growth speed
12:38<_dp_>without limit it's just generally better strategy to reserve center for later
12:45<_dp_>and not only it's ugly but also stupidly op for small goals, as you can do it without delivering nearly as much as supposed
12:49<planetmaker>I think I lost you somewhere. If you limit the space for a town to grow you inevitably limit its growth speed
12:54<_dp_>mb, but it's not related to town growth rate, as I want to prevent town from building houses too far from center
12:55<_dp_>so it won't be slowing town growth unless player tries to bring houses somewhere far with bridges or similar stuff
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12:58<_dp_>btw, gs has also no way to deal with industries, can only build them but not remove or anything
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13:03<planetmaker>indeed, it seems
13:03<planetmaker>_dp_, I think that's an area where we gladly accept patches
13:03<planetmaker>especially when you write a GS, writing a short API extension might come in handy and help and have good chances :)
13:04<planetmaker>with industries... there should be two ways probably: back-talk to the NewGRF so that it closes it and a hard removal
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13:06<_dp_>cool, then I'll do some :)
13:07<_dp_>not rly using GS usually since I prefer to do everything directly with DoCommand but can do some simple just to showcase it
13:08<_dp_>back-talking to newgrf is some other patch iirc (json-smth)?
13:09<_dp_>actually, don't think it's a good idea to involve newgrfs in controlling the game
13:10<planetmaker>something along json was suggested / discussed somewhen, iirc. But I don't know the discussion's result anymore
13:10<planetmaker>_dp_, industries *are* controlled via NewGRF though. So there's no way around that
13:10<planetmaker>if you want to meddle with those
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13:15<_dp_>damn those newgrfs :(
13:16<_dp_>so. bos
13:16<_dp_>outh, hit enter accidentaly)
13:18<_dp_>so, basically there is no way to, for example, allow changing industry production without newgrfs because, theoretically, there could be newgrf that controls it?
13:19<planetmaker>that's where it needs the interface between NewGRF and GS
13:19<planetmaker>that a GS can ask the industry to change production
13:22<_dp_>aha, and some fallback stuff to do that if no grf answers the call %)
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13:29<_dp_>at least can remove industry... though technically it's CmdLandscapeClear which can also do a lot of other stuff
13:30<planetmaker>hi T :)
13:30<_dp_>but don't see any harm in enabling it for OWNER_DEITY... with patching it everywhere for that ofc
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13:35<_dp_>meh, that probably stands true for most of construction stuff))
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13:36<_dp_>everith that doesn't build smth that requires owner
13:36<planetmaker>_dp_, constructing rail as deity... doesn't quite work :)
13:36<planetmaker>or must not
13:37<_dp_>it requires owner, but removing... why not?
13:37<planetmaker>oh, removing... yes
13:37<planetmaker>ufo :)
13:38<_dp_>although it may be useful to be able to construct stuff for specific company as deity
13:38<planetmaker>well, you can do that as company and give the money
13:38<planetmaker>what might be useful is means to set the authority rating for companies
13:39<planetmaker>there might have been reason to not implement that, but I don't know which. And I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed by GS in deity mode
13:39<_dp_>yeah, that definitely will be the first thing I do :)
13:41<_dp_>though I'd really like to be able to just disable that authority stuff completely :)
13:41<_dp_>not very fond of blocking mechanics in ttd
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13:45<planetmaker>_dp_, I don't think there need be way to *disable* it. A GS could simply get means to either set it or to add a value to it
13:46<planetmaker>both make sense
13:49<@Alberth>the idea is exactly to be annoying :)
13:50<planetmaker>well, sure. But with the option to set it, it opens new possibilities for GS: to create events, both positive and negative
13:50<planetmaker>and to simulate god-like building stuff in the name of a company as bonus
13:50<planetmaker>of course it can be (ab)used to disable local authority rating, too.
13:50<_dp_>there already is a setting to change it's severity, just no option to turn off for some reason. And I'd use it if there were as usually have more fun things to do than building trees ;)
13:51<planetmaker>and indeed, logically there's no reason why there's no setting to disable it entirely - except that it's about one of the very few challanges left intrinsically to OpenTTD which cannot be ignored
13:53<_dp_>for regular openttd yes, but I only play on goal servers, so have plenty of challenges, authority is just a nuisance in this case.
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14:03<_dp_>hm, if I introduce new commands in patch, should I append them to the end of a list to preserve numeration or insert to where they logically belong?
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14:03<_dp_>both ways would work I think...
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15:52<planetmaker> is peculiar...
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15:54<frosch123>well, either that guy uses a preprocessor, and then should also post the macros
15:54<frosch123>or the whole code is bollocks
15:55<frosch123>no point in guessing from that code
15:55<frosch123>at work there was some source code that threw warning on compilarion, which noone could explain and made no sense
15:56<frosch123>then more than a year later someone randomly discovered that some douchbag had a "#define if(a) ..." in some headerfile
15:56<frosch123>which turned regular "if" into magic
15:56<planetmaker>ho hi :)
15:56<planetmaker>frosch123, I get that very same with that exact code snippet
15:57<planetmaker>I can reproduce it with that minimal example
15:57<planetmaker>(just using some numbers for the engineIDs in the first switch is required to reproduce it)
15:57<frosch123>so you mean with those identifiers instead of values?
15:58<frosch123>i.e. instead of "binary operator requires ..." it should say "undefined identifier ..."?
15:58<planetmaker>hm? I mean as-is. It's not the identifier names which matter. I checked that first thing
16:00<planetmaker>but I wonder that NML warns that both switches aren't used
16:02<frosch123>i assume it's the "str2number" that breaks it?
16:02<frosch123>i.e. does it work with some other value?
16:03<planetmaker>if I replace that by a 4-byte number it's the same
16:04<planetmaker>also with that whole switch disabled
16:04<planetmaker>oh.... it's a *property*. Not a graphics block where he tries to call it!
16:05<planetmaker>so yes, it must fail. But bad error message :)
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16:09<frosch123>details :)
16:09<frosch123>is there even a reason to distinguish properties and graphics? or should that get dropped in nml 0.5?
16:10<frosch123>i suspect there are some arcane corner cases, like refittability with capacity > 0 :p
16:13<planetmaker>It helps in definition of default cargoes, I *think*. But honestly I forgot and the distinction seems artificial. NMLC could simply use the default value as the property value
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16:14<planetmaker>I created
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16:27<_dp_>omg, there already is a method to get authority rating but for some reason it returns discrete values instead of just returning rating value as it is %)
16:27<Wolf01>new feature for ottd: trains with rocket launchers which destroy industries
16:31<planetmaker>_dp_, yes... but authority rating is not % internally either but a value -1000 ... +something
16:32<planetmaker>it might make sense to expose that... but some people might want to discuss that
16:35<_dp_>yeah, it seems like gs api tries to avoid exposing internal stuff but in fact that only makes it less useful
16:35<_dp_>same stuff with growth rate, converting it do days and adding some bugs in a process %)
16:38<planetmaker>well. The point in *not* exposing internals is that makes OpenTTD modifications much easier when there's a simple API
16:38<planetmaker>then you can modify internals as you like. And simply convert the API values to the new internal system
16:39<planetmaker>Thus keeping API something different without exposing implementation details allows better future-proffness
16:39<_dp_>well, then I think I'll just make setrating accepts same discrete values and leave arguing to those who care...
16:40<_dp_>idk, I don't see any future for gs, so much future-proof it is now :P
16:41<planetmaker>well, that's your choice then
16:42<planetmaker>though I think the GS and AI interfaces work quite well. And extensions are always possible
16:43<planetmaker>However exposing internals (like the detailed values for authority ratings) will need much more careful consideration than just means to set the rating via the existing interface values (those values which also the player sees)
16:46<_dp_>I thought GS is a great thing before I actually tried to use it :)
16:47<_dp_>it's good to be careful with api but not at the cost of reducing functionality
16:48<_dp_>like, nobody came up with a good way to expose TOWN_IS_GROWING flag, so there is no way to know whether it is growing or not %)
16:51<planetmaker>is not?
16:51<_dp_>and the way gs is integrated, executing in external loop, once per frame with one command per frame limit... so much hassle to work around compared to just patching.
16:51<planetmaker>to my understanding the GS sets explicitly how fast a town shall grow. And then OpenTTD ensures just that?
16:52<_dp_>you can get growth_rate, but if town is on normal growth there is no way to know whether it is actually growing or not
16:52<planetmaker>well, please implement such query function then
16:53<planetmaker>There was never said that "this is it and no more". On the contrary: it was only always that implemented which someone asked for. And which then someone cared to actually implement
16:53<_dp_>that even was discussed in flyspray somewhere, yet nothing was decided
16:56<planetmaker>sometimes discussions need time to hang and ripe till it's worth to pick them up again by possibly shining a new light on them :)
17:02<Wipe>what's the reason to disallow following vehicle on zoom > x4?
17:02<planetmaker>there's no zoom > x4
17:03<planetmaker>_dp_, I see...
17:05<Wipe>ugh, i mean max zoomout; i can scroll to vehicle but not follow it
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17:07<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
17:07<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 2 hours, 20 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <andythenorth> he came, he went
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17:20<planetmaker>_dp_, I think you might have had a chance if you actually followed-up on zuu's comments... (mind, I never was involved with the API, though)
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17:26<FLHerne>Wipe: Huh, hadn't noticed that
17:26<FLHerne>Presumably because redrawing the whole of such a large area of map each second would take too long
17:27<FLHerne>*74th of a second
17:28<_dp_>planetmaker, well, I'm not going to pick up developing The_Dude's CB script so not particularly interested in that flag, just mentioned it for example
17:29<_dp_>would definitely need it for standalone script, but as long as I'm only concerned with running servers I don't need any getters, just stuff that actually does smth.
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause>the new forum version still has that bug that doesn't reset the "unviewed posts" icon after a thread was moved
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21:12<Eddi|zuHause>so... instead of a neat "the forum is backing up" message, we now get 500's?
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 20 00:00:34 2015