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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-10-24

---Logopened Sat Oct 24 00:00:01 2015
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03:03<andythenorth>mornington crescent
03:04<andythenorth>also how many railtypes is too many?
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03:16<andythenorth>7 railtypes seems like a lot
03:16<tipsyTentacle>2 railtypes is a lot! hehehehehe
04:00*andythenorth looks
04:01<andythenorth>ho, what industry grf is that? PBI?
04:01<andythenorth>sprites are broken :)
04:10<tipsyTentacle>? They are?
04:11<tipsyTentacle>Town and Industries - Basic Industries is the grf i believe.
04:18<Wolf01>mmmh, i just updated to factorio 0.12, the new changes are nice and most of them were needed (the transport belts work better now), but i can't understand if the red inserter pickup/drop was drastically changed
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07:32<andythenorth>who controls the schema for railtypes?
07:32<andythenorth>nvm, found the answer here
07:37<andythenorth>I am working on South American trains for Iron Horse
07:38<andythenorth>there are two gauges: ‘broad’ (mostly Indian 5’6”) and ‘narrow’ (mostly metre / 3’6”)
07:38<andythenorth>the actual numbers don’t matter much, realism is not paramount
07:39<andythenorth>what’s the best way to implement this in the railtypes schema?
07:45<andythenorth>I was going to just ignore ‘broad’ and treat that as default rails
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08:40<frosch123>andythenorth: i think it's all eddi's fault
08:41<andythenorth>all of it?
08:41<andythenorth>seems harsh
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08:50<Eddi|zuHause>... at least a significant part
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>how come every time i want to reply to andy, he left like 3 minutes ago?
08:58<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: He deliberately says controversial things just before he plans to leave, so he doesn't have to argue about them? :P
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: but the original question was over 1 hour ago. there was plenty of time for me to look in here and answer
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>so, something about andy leaving compels me to look here.
09:01<frosch123>maybe there is only space for one top-spammer at a time
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i was never top (in number of lines)
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>at some point i was top in number of words, but then i kinda fell behind
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>generally, my words per line ratio is just too high :p
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10:44<LadyHawk>just picked up and played ottd again... makes me wanna update n see what other goodies been added
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11:05<@Alberth>more heights, mostly :)
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>so, i tried train fever again, but i keep bumping into the annoying bits about track geometry and planning. plus weird economy model side effects
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11:55<@Alberth>so back to not playing openttd, I guess :p
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12:04<Wolf01>it could have been a better game, i hope they don't abandon it and fix at least the double track bridges/tunnels construction
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>also, lack of track planning....
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12:17<LadyHawk>is there anywhere i can find high traffic truck station layouts?
12:18<Wolf01>just put enough parallel roadstops
12:19<LadyHawk>i thought that was the answer but it creates choke points
12:20<LadyHawk>just figured if there's layouts of people that managed to avoid the choke points
12:21<LadyHawk>so i dont have to sit here and tell a vehicle to turn around every once in a while :p
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>so, out of the million possible combinations that you might currently have ended up with, we're supposed to just guess where your problem is?
12:23<LadyHawk>i did not ask for help with a problem... i asked if there's a link or whatever to some road vehicle loading bay layouts so i can get ideas
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12:25<Wolf01>also road vehicles are self-unjamming, if they want to take a road is because that is the best one, if they are "jammed" you are using too many vehicles or too few stations
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, part of the problem is that road vehicles are not properly load balancing
12:29<LadyHawk>thanks for confirming that one, i had gotten an impression of them doing something a lil different
12:29<LadyHawk>just high amounts of traffic on a single bit of road doesn't always leave the truck enough time to decide to move to a different bay, or give the truck a bit of road to turn and go elsewhere.. it's the layout i want to perfect along with this behaviour
12:34<LadyHawk> -- example high volume of traffic that would enter a single station at once
12:34<LadyHawk> -- current station layout to accomodate truck behaviour
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>you would need to extdend the pathfinder to take the current position of road vehicles into account, but that is not really practical
12:35<LadyHawk>yeah, extend pathfinder range causes more harm than good in heavy traffic situations i found
12:35<LadyHawk>you want traffic as blind as possible otherwise they all think the other traffic is poisonous and go haywire
12:36<LadyHawk>without breaking the stations anyways
12:36<LadyHawk>delicate balance
12:36<LadyHawk>reason i keep coming back to this game
12:36<Wolf01>that setup is really slow, you should use road stops instead of loading bays
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12:41<LadyHawk>i've tried to use those road stops but i couldn't work out how to build it on a large loading and unloading station... if 1 truck loads, 1 whole line of trucks is blocked off and i couldn't work out how to build it in such a way the other trucks avoid and go elsewhere, but kept queueing up.. litterally creating a 1-truck-blocks-a-hundred-trucks situation
12:41<LadyHawk>fatal when the loading truck waits for goods, and effectively blocked off all trucks wishing to unload
12:42<LadyHawk>with loading bays that problem doesn't exist since the truck is 'out of the way'
12:42*LadyHawk digs link some more hoping to find more layout ideas
12:42<LadyHawk>to help me with those stops..
12:43<Wolf01>did you messed up the pathfinding? i have no problems with that kind of layout and trucks automatically chose a new roadstop if the first one is busy
12:44<LadyHawk>i have all loading trucks set to full load before departing, and pathfinding untouched.. the trouble comes in when you cram 100 trucks on a 12 bay station, sooner or later they're going to kinda accumulate in 1 place
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>a) split loading and unloading stations
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>b) take the lowest example from the wiki page, but make it more compact, and reverse the directions (middle path goes in, side paths go out)
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>if you have the middle path go in, you delay the decision which side to go on as late as possible
12:46<LadyHawk>all go in through middle should let them behave as they would by picking the free stop
12:47<Wolf01>i don't even use the one way roads, the trucks can enter from which side they want so both lanes are usable, also this allow you to cram even more vehicles in the area
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>still, you will have usually two trucks try to head to the same free bay
12:47<LadyHawk>would having 2 stops in sequence help with that at all?
12:48<LadyHawk>with the bottom wiki layout.. reversed
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: in theory, yes. but that violates the "as late as possible" rule
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: no.
12:49<LadyHawk>as late as possible = best since that avoids queueing at high traffic... early choices leads to trucks not deviding themselves properly
12:49<LadyHawk>creating a block sooner or later
12:49<LadyHawk>i'm going to try that Eddi|zuHause
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12:49<Wolf01>also road stops allow articulated vehicles, which can't even enter the loading bays
12:49<LadyHawk>thank you
12:50<LadyHawk>imma build a custom map, build it all up and see what happens beyond its limits.. just for fun XD
13:02<LadyHawk>already had a map, just built the layout, time to see what happens next
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13:16<LadyHawk>this is incredible
13:17<LadyHawk>enough trucks entering that build to take away 1k tonnes of coal in 1 go and they're only using 6-7 stops
13:18<LadyHawk>on occasion i have 3 trucks entering 1 stop so 1 is waiting but not often too
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13:23<LadyHawk>it needs a rebuild with a double road going to/from... it's the road that cant handle the traffic, not the station o_O
13:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's me.
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: one of the two types of rail should be "standard", no matter what gauges you use.
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>for more detailed answer i have not enough information.
13:30<andythenorth>as a basic answer, it’s a good one
13:32<LadyHawk>look at the capacity of that layout.. lmao
13:32<andythenorth>RVs are....special
13:32<LadyHawk>2 bits of 1 way leading out where all the trucks are coming in
13:33<LadyHawk>the rest completely compact
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: yes, that's pretty much what i meant.
13:33<LadyHawk>just way too many stops there lol, thanks a ton! :D
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: if you use ctrl+click to place the stops, you can alternate a stop from the loading and one from the unloading station, to keep the flows separate
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>it may somewhat help with untangling some jams
13:36<LadyHawk>i've been using ctrlclicks in that game to add spread out rail stations to increase reach -- more coal mines
13:36<LadyHawk>hang on
13:37<LadyHawk>hmm... so you can place 2 seperate stations right next to eachother
13:37<LadyHawk>didn't know that bit, thanks lol.. learned 2 things so far
13:37<LadyHawk>a way to get around the error message! XD
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>the error message is a bid old-fashoned
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it should just pop up the station selection window, as if ctrl was pressed, when it's ambiguous
13:40<LadyHawk>that would be great imo
13:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what’s the rationale for always including ‘standard’ rail?
13:41<LadyHawk>when the trucks exit this station.. for some reason the ones coming from the left have priority over the ones coming from the right... must figure out why
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: from the perspective of the track set or from the perspective of the train set?
13:42<andythenorth>train set
13:42<LadyHawk>bottom part of the station ends up blocked up
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the basic question here is, what happens when the track set does not provide the desired tracks?
13:43<andythenorth>yeah, that’s what I hoped you’d say
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. if the track set only provides standard gauge, do you want both types of trains available, or leave one out, or provide no trains at all?
13:44<andythenorth>I forget, where is the vehicle<->railtype compatibility determined? Labels are compatible to other labels?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>if the set provides standard and narrow gauge, or standard and broad gauge, how do you want to map the two types to the provided tracks?
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the track set may define compatibility and equivalence between types. the train set can set alternative types, if the desired type is not available
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27411 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-10-24 19:45:11 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:45<andythenorth>ok, there’s nothing to change imo, I leave ‘broad gauge’ as ‘standard’ rails
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>so, your broad gauge train could have (in the railtype translation table): [Bxxx, Sxxx, RAIL]
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>means "use broad gauge if available, use standard gauge as fallback, and RAIL if only default types are available"
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>the narrow gauge could be defined as [Nxxx], which means it's only available if actual narrow gauge is provided, otherwise it's disabled
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>or you could do [Nxxx, RAIL] to have them mixed
13:48<andythenorth>I think I just leave them disabled
13:50*andythenorth wonders how to do electrified narrow gauge
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>(if my memory serves me right)
13:50<andythenorth>oh I already handled that appparently
13:50<andythenorth>ELNG: [NAAE, NBAN, ENLW, ENHI, ELNG]
13:50<andythenorth>is that a copy-paste from CETS?
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
13:51*andythenorth contemplates rack rail
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>NBAN doesn't really make sense there
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't know what ENLW and ENHI are
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>ELNG is some older version of narrow gauge, which people may or may not use, you should probably keep that in there
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13:58<andythenorth>NBAN does not make sense indeed
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14:03*andythenorth needs a railtype grf with electrified narrow gauge in it
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>snail had a test grf, i don't know if that contained electrified narrow gauge
14:08<Snail>yes, it does
14:08<Snail>catenary and third rail...
14:14<Snail>the labels I defined are NAAN, NAAE, NAA3, NRAN, NRAE, NBAN
14:14<Snail>normal, catenary, third rail, rackrail, rackrail + catenary, and “high speed"
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>NRAN is an interesting construct i haven't really considered. is that documented anywhere?
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>i always assumed rack rail would be encoded in the last letter
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14:24<LadyHawk>oh now it's just pretty to watch... double road to/from.. slightly off entering the station :(
14:25<andythenorth>Snail: so how have you handled rack rail with respect to performance? o_O
14:28<Snail>Eddi: I used the second letter because it identifies the max speed
14:29<Snail>and rackrail usually has a very low max speed (around 20ish km/h)
14:29<Snail>andy: I boosted the rackrail engines’ TE when driving on rackrail track
14:29<Snail>effectively, this gives them a very slight advantage on uphill tracks
14:30<Snail>but to keep the max speed to a realistic value, it had to be 25 km/h
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>it's difficult to balance with the limited game physics, i presume
14:30<Snail>Eddi: very true
14:30<andythenorth>does it have gameplay effect? o_O
14:30<Snail>hehe, well a very limited one
14:31<Snail>it’s there for historical correctness and variety
14:31<Snail>but doesn’t really have any tangible gameplay advantage
14:31<Snail>to make rackrails really useful we should have different steep grades in OTTD
14:34<Snail>still, it gives me a valid excuse to code push/pull in very early trains :P
14:37<Wipe>is there a 'faster' way to refresh screen content, other than MakeWholeScreenDirty() / Window::SetDirty() / etc?
14:39<Wipe>or some example how could i change MainWindow::OnPaint() to make "OpenTTD" text draw smoothier if intro viewport is following a vehicle
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>make the text a real window?
14:53<andythenorth>Snail: where would I find your test grf? o_O Can’t find it with forum search ;)
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>i have one in my PM inbox, from 3 years ago
14:55<andythenorth>actually so do I :)
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15:45<Snail>andy: I guess it hasn’t changed much since :p
15:45<Snail>I’ve worked on the trains lately, not much on the tracks
15:49<LadyHawk>maybe a very silly question but 'max tractive effort' value on trains... what is this?
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16:13<LadyHawk>if i understand it right it's the slippyness of the train
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16:18<FLHerne>LadyHawk: Pretty much
16:18<FLHerne>On some vehicles the max TE might be below the limit of friction, but in OTTD the distinction doesn't matter
16:19<FLHerne>Basically, acceleration at low speeds and tolerance of hills
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16:54<andythenorth>@seen danmack
16:54<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 23 hours, 47 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
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16:55<Wolf01>new record?
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17:12<Eddi|zuHause>oh, really the worst part about train fever track building: trying to build bridges over tracks.
17:12<Wolf01>pfff, i had to build a tunnel under a railway bridge to accomodate a highway -.-
17:12<greeter>i find that only hurts if they aren't your tracks
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17:13<Eddi|zuHause>in train fever they can't be not your tracks. it's a single player game.
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17:14<greeter>oh, i didn't know you were talking about a different game
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17:36<greeter>here's a stupid question... how tolerant is openttd of town names that use special characters or accented letters?
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>there shouldn't be a lot of problems with that, as long as you do not use the builtin font
17:37<greeter>do not use the builtin font?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>basically, you can safely use all characters that your language already uses elsewhere
17:38<greeter>ah. well i play in english, but the town name i want to enter is in french
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>that should work
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>but if you want chinese or arabic town names, you can only reliably expect that to work
17:39<greeter>alrighty then. now to figure out how to type in the characters
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>if you change the font in openttd.cfg
17:40<greeter>ok, well french and english both use the same alphabet, so because of that i'll be safe?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>basically, yes
17:40<__ln__>as do english and polish, but i suspect that's less safe
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>did anyone make an emoji town name set yet?
17:41<greeter>ha, that would be entertaining to see
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>might fit in well with toyland :p
17:42<greeter>hmm, there's no simple copy/paste for town names it seems lol
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>the alt+numpad method should work
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>(assuming you are on windows)
17:44<greeter>umm, nope lol. i'll need to find another method
17:45<greeter>there's a program out there somewhere that'll do it
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17:57<tipsyTentacle>I got it to display Chinese i think
17:58<greeter>it worked :-D
17:59<greeter>thank goodness most of the towns on this map have english names lol, that was a curse to input
18:03<greeter>say, do trees also randomly grow on the map if i'm just editing in the scenario builder?
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18:11<greeter>ah, ok. good thing i plan to have lots of trees then lol
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>there's actually two ways a tree can grow. first is, an existing tree may spawn a new tree on the same or an adjacent tile. the second is, regularly there will be a random tree placed on a random place on the map. this latter one you can disable for the scenario editor
18:13<greeter>hmm shouldn't be a big deal. the last thing i'm going to do for this scenario is cover the whole map in trees anyway
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>trees add difficulty to the game, as you can't do a lot of construction before the town utterly hates you...
18:20<greeter>that is true. i think it'll make up for how flat i had to make the map to import it though :-S pretty much took all the detail out of it, save for a few large lakes
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>... we have so many heightlevels now...
18:22<FLHerne>The problem now is the 45° slopes though
18:23<FLHerne>Anything that actually uses all those heightlevels ends up being slopes and pretty much nothing else
18:24<greeter>that was the issue i had. and when i tried "flattening" the map somewhat, i had a map that was either flat, or water, and a very even mixture of both. two two land tiles touched lol
18:25<greeter>that said i did just finally figure out how the height change tools in the scenario editor work
18:25<FLHerne>On a 512² map, getting to the top heightlevel from sealevel requires a single mountain the width of the map :-/
18:26<greeter>that would be far from ideal :-S
18:27<greeter>thankfully the areas i had a height map of don't have huge variations in elevation. but the change in elevation is extremely requent
18:27<greeter>all elevations were 0 to 800 meters above sea level
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: yes. cliffs would be nice.
18:30<greeter>cliffs would make for easier tunneling to say the least
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18:41<@Terkhen>good night
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18:46<greeter>well i just asked the scenario editor for a small town and it gave me one with a population of 0 lol
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>that happens when there's no space to construct something, it only makes a church, or it makes a building that is still under construction
18:50<greeter>well 0 was pretty close to what i wanted lol
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19:04<greeter>it'd be quicker if i got a hard copy of the maps i need lol
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19:09<greeter>must admit though, whatever size i click, the scenario builder gets the population right where i want it almost all the time
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19:33<greeter>i hope anyone else who plays this scenario remembers pei being as flat as i do :-S lol
19:36<greeter>the area i'm working on in the scenario builder right now, short for prince edward island, canada's smallest province
19:37<tipsyTentacle>hm, i wonder if there is a california map
19:38<greeter>only one way to find out
19:38<greeter>to be honest, i'm not sure there'd be any demand for the map i'm working on, especially since it isn't all that good, but i figure i won't know till i make one and put it on the forums
19:41<tipsyTentacle>Well if you like it, then someone else surely will (:
19:42<tipsyTentacle>plus, it's good practice.
19:42<tipsyTentacle>... is there a way to make a script that everytime you try to build in the Bay, you get NIMBY people to come out and protest and block your rails? Town authority can never be higher than poor.
19:43<tipsyTentacle>and if you try to build from SF to LA, all of a sudden, all your funding will disappear.
19:43<tipsyTentacle>#california train problems
19:43<greeter>try the atlantic canada scenario i'm working on. it isn't complete unless there's no passenger train service and NIMBY at funding industries :-P
19:45<tipsyTentacle>Time to destroy all NIMBY towns and replace them with trees
19:45*tipsyTentacle is an evil eminent domain dicator
19:45<greeter>in fact in the largest city here in new brunswick, they recently banned the use of train whistles
19:45<tipsyTentacle>I can kinda understand
19:45<greeter>yes, makes perfect sense, rail usage has tripled in the past five years so let's make it less safe
19:46<tipsyTentacle>they're so loud here. when i moved to my uni, i was what, 2-3 miles away from the tracks?
19:46<tipsyTentacle>I can still hear their whistles :|
19:46<tipsyTentacle>Kept me up at night for a while, but now i don't even notice.
19:47<greeter>i'm 13 kilometers from the tracks and i still hear the whistles here, but that's a consequence of choosing to live close to train tracks
19:47<greeter>i'm thinking it'll only take one rail accident in which someone's car is destroyed or in which people are seriously harmed before they revisit the no whistle policy
19:47<tipsyTentacle>oh, 2-3 miles is roughly ... 6 to 9 km?
19:48<greeter>3 miles is about 5 kilometers
19:48<tipsyTentacle>that's so loud oh my gosh
19:48<tipsyTentacle>how do you live
19:48<greeter>13 kilometers is about 8 miles. i used to live much closer to the tracks, but even at a few hundred meters, i barely noticed the whistles
19:48<greeter>i was more likely to notice the movement of the ground as heavy freight went over nearby tracks
19:48<tipsyTentacle>My hometown doesn't have frieght trains going by anymore, so it's allllll quiet.
19:49<tipsyTentacle>but we have that subway /light rail system. Which is thankfully pretty quiet.
19:49<greeter>that's all we have here. it used to be mostly loads of potash, but now more and more oil is being shipped by rail
19:49<greeter>considering the city has the largest oil refinery in the country, that does make quite a bit of sense
19:49<tipsyTentacle>mhm that makes sense
19:49<tipsyTentacle>I dunno what we were shipping, but we were relatively close to one of the west coast's biggest ports
19:49<greeter>but the lac megantic rail disaster was with a train that was ultimately coming this way. i'm surprised even with that in mind, there's so much opposition to pipelines for oil
19:51<greeter>ah yes, that would result in a lot of rail traffic for sure
19:51<tipsyTentacle>they probably don't like a constant stream of explosives
19:51<tipsyTentacle>and would prefer that the explosives stay only for a few minutes each time
19:51<greeter>lol perhaps
19:52<greeter>the pipeline would be good for people like me. they always need electricians when building those things
19:53<tipsyTentacle>Hehe I am a software engineer. I suppose I could get a job writing software to handle the pipes?
19:53<greeter>perhaps so. they will need people like that on staff too
19:53<greeter>and best of all i can wire up your office :-P
19:57<tipsyTentacle>hehe sounds like a healthy economy is going on down in... Pei, was it?
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19:57<greeter>well i'm in new brunswick, but pei is where i'm working on this map right now. i'm basically doing canada's maritime provinces, with a few additions
19:58<tipsyTentacle>I find maps with seperate islands to be pretty fun
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19:58<greeter>well, this one has pei, the magdalen islands, and newfoundland, which is much larger than those other ones
19:59<tipsyTentacle>I'll def try out your map when you're done~
19:59<greeter>there is also cape breton island, but you could throw a rock to it from the mainland
20:00<greeter>well, that's encouragement to work on it quicker and get it posted to the forums
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20:09<greeter>though i made the map so huge that this is going to take some time lol
20:21<greeter>you certainly find some odd place names once you begin scanning maps and finding out where things are. i'm half tempted to include "Malignant cove" as one of the towns
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21:37<Eddi|zuHause>man, my sense of time is totally screwed up right now...
21:38<greeter>how so?
21:41<Wipe>timechange? it was 3am hour ago, now there will be 3am again in 20m
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22:03<greeter>ah i see. the time doesn't change here until next weekend
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23:38<greeter>just curious, is it normal to see a ghost of the save dialog in the game for a while after saving a large game?
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 25 00:00:03 2015