Back to Home / #openttd / 2015 / 10 / Prev Day | Next Day
#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-10-29

---Logopened Thu Oct 29 00:00:09 2015
00:01-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/]
00:02-!-Pokka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:03-!-Pokka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
01:03-!-Pukka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
01:10-!-Pokka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:20-!-Flygon [~Flygon@ppp118-209-25-222.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:20-!-Flygon [~Flygon@ppp118-209-25-222.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd
01:23-!-joho [~joho@takamachi.nanoha.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:24-!-joho [~joho@takamachi.nanoha.se] has joined #openttd
01:25-!-kirjs_______ [sid25169@charlton.irccloud.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:25-!-kirjs_______ [sid25169@id-25169.charlton.irccloud.com] has joined #openttd
01:26-!-strohalm [~smoofi@212.37.175.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:26-!-strohalm [~smoofi@212.37.175.238] has joined #openttd
01:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4D18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit []
01:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4216.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
02:39-!-cha0tics [~cha0tics@ip-95-223-254-149.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:54-!-liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
03:11-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
03:11-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd []
03:12-!-Pukka is now known as Pikka
03:36-!-shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
03:37-!-shirish [~quassel@117.195.104.196] has joined #openttd
03:42-!-tipsyTentacle [~tipsy@63.138.45.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:58-!-JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has quit [Quit: :q!]
04:09-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:21-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
04:24<Pikka>o/
04:27-!-shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:27<andythenorth>lo pikka bob
04:28<Pikka>lo
04:28<Pikka>brbrb
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>blob
05:40<Pikka>blab
05:44<andythenorth>Pikka how is bob?
05:44<Pikka>hmm not bad. uni all done, at last
05:44<andythenorth>\o/
05:44<Pikka>et tu brute?
05:44<andythenorth>do you have a certificate?
05:44<Pikka>oh
05:45<Pikka>uni all done for the semester at last :)
05:45<andythenorth>it is raining here
05:45<Pikka>halfway through the degree...
05:45<andythenorth>and I receive daily pictures by sms from our guys who are in Perth
05:45<andythenorth>at the beach
05:45<Pikka>it's been threatening to rain here all day. It's going to wait until I'm out letterboxing tonight before it actually starts.
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>hasn't the semester just started?
05:45<Pikka>it's the beginning of the summer break here, Eddi
05:46<andythenorth>are you involved in politics again? o_O
05:46<Pikka>yep, local government this time
05:47<Pikka>wot larks
05:47<Pikka>I'm involved in two campaigns, so twice as much chance of winning \o/
05:48*andythenorth has been a leafleter
05:48<andythenorth>my dad was a local councillor
05:48<Pikka>it's good fun
05:48<andythenorth>much pounding of streets, opening of gates, avoiding of dogs
05:49<andythenorth>50p per night I think he paid us
05:49<Pikka>oh
05:49<Pikka>I don't get paid.. tch.
05:49<andythenorth>I was about 9
05:49<andythenorth>child labour
05:49<Pikka>terrible
05:50*andythenorth has been on a newgrf spree
05:50<andythenorth>hmmm
05:50<Pikka>making, or playing?
05:50<andythenorth>I should forums post some stuff
05:50<andythenorth>both
05:50<Pikka>fancy
05:51<Pikka>you should
05:51<andythenorth>I am bored of being in a nearly-inactive community :P
05:51<andythenorth>but maybe I should do something instead of complaining :P
05:51<Pikka>we'll just have to make a new game, with a new community ;)
05:52<andythenorth>I think that’s called factorio?
05:52<Pikka>hmm
05:52<andythenorth>haz you other plans?
05:53<Pikka>I have pipe dreams :) but seriously, probably no time soon.
05:53<V453000>o/
05:54<Pikka>yikes o/
05:55-!-Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d025cc7.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd
05:56<V453000>I think players are still very active andythenorth
05:56<V453000>idk about newgrf and development :) dont follow anymore
05:56<andythenorth>V453000: without you, I’m the only one left writing monologues in irc :)
05:56<andythenorth>nvm
05:56<V453000>I wouldnt take forums as a good indicator of activity
05:57<V453000>XD
05:57<V453000>right
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>maybe irc is dying, and you should start a facesnapgram?
05:58<andythenorth>irc died years ago
05:58<andythenorth>now it’s an unkillable walking zombie
06:00<V453000>andythenorth, come make roadtypes mod for factorio :P
06:00<andythenorth>nah
06:01<andythenorth>I tried factorio, it doesn’t click for me :)
06:01<andythenorth>most games don't
06:01<V453000>but it has trains? :D
06:02<andythenorth>I know :D
06:03*Pikka dindins
06:03<andythenorth>enjoy pie
06:03<Pikka>mm pie
06:24<Pikka>shhh
06:25<andythenorth>I didn’t say anything :(
06:25<Pikka>why not?
06:25<andythenorth>well
06:26<V453000>enjoy pipe?
06:26<andythenorth>because I get mocked for being the only one who talks here :P
06:26<andythenorth>and even andythenorth has feelings
06:26<Pikka>how can you get mocked if no-one else talks, hmm? :D
06:26<V453000>strong argument
06:27<andythenorth>logical
06:27<andythenorth>flawless
06:27*andythenorth has made a copper cargo
06:27<andythenorth>what larks
06:27<Pikka>I did that once...
06:27<andythenorth>I wonder why I didn’t just use metal?
06:27<andythenorth>but it seemed wrong
06:28<Pikka>it's all just stuff
06:28*Pikka made a stuff cargo once, too...
06:28*andythenorth has been making south american trains
06:28<andythenorth>all the realisms
06:28<V453000>omfg
06:28<Pikka>what did you decide about gauges?
06:29<andythenorth>‘RAIL’ = broad gauge
06:29<andythenorth>then narrow gauge for all the others, 75cm, meter gauge etc
06:29<Pikka>hmm
06:29<andythenorth>got 6 railtypes in this game, including PIPE
06:30<andythenorth>seems ok though
06:30*Pikka feels meter gauge isn't "narrow", but that might just be what I'm used to.
06:30<andythenorth>relative :P
06:30<Pikka>sure, but if they're "real trains" they're not narrow gauge, or something.
06:30<andythenorth>when we do Pineapple stuff, NG can be RAIL :P
06:31<andythenorth>FIRS queensland economy
06:31<Pikka>rum, bananas and coal
06:32<andythenorth>sugar
06:32-!-Pokka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
06:33<Pokka>ouch
06:33<Pokka>anyway, sugar makes rum
06:34<andythenorth>sugar refinery -> food, alcohol
06:35<Pokka>fair enough
06:35<andythenorth>maybe
06:35<V453000>slug makes food
06:35<andythenorth>Road Hog is not bad now
06:36<andythenorth>“At last, a non-shit vehicle set”
06:36<andythenorth>* besides eGRVTS
06:36<V453000>nice
06:36-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
06:36<Wolf01>o/
06:36<Pokka>double nice
06:39-!-Pikka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:39-!-Pokka is now known as Pikka
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>what's next? monster nice?
06:42<Pikka>monster rice?
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>mustard spice?
06:43<Pikka>mango spline.
06:43<Wolf01>cookies
06:43<Pikka>easily
07:09-!-fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
07:25-!-TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:28-!-TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd
07:33-!-Pokka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
07:33<Pokka>oops
07:40-!-Pikka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:40-!-Pokka is now known as Pikka
07:55-!-Pikka [~Octomom@106-69-124-224.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:09-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd
08:35-!-Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:35-!-Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
08:36<LadyHawk>i just broke a setting in the config file, and i think gave me what i wanted.. *digs*
08:38-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
08:51-!-Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has joined #openttd
08:56-!-luaduck [~luaduck@cream.duck.me.uk] has joined #openttd
08:58-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail]
09:04-!-shirish [~quassel@117.222.7.71] has joined #openttd
09:33<LadyHawk>and i've run into a little issue which i dunno how to solve.. a depot block with heavy traffic... traffic seems to pick a depot and then decide to reserve a track to it.. and they will wait at a blocked path for centuries
09:34<LadyHawk>they should first reserve a free track and then decide to pick said depot on the reserved track
09:35<LadyHawk>i'm finding it strange since it's a forced service, rather than a depot order
09:35<LadyHawk>didn't think they'd actually go and pick a preferred depot and get all stubborn
09:36<LadyHawk>(pbs signals since that's much easier to split the track than entry/combo/exits
09:36<LadyHawk>)
09:37<LadyHawk>maybe i can put a waypoint behind the pbs signals and from the waypoint give them a depot order, would that make them pick the depot on their reserved track?
09:37<LadyHawk>so they'd be clueless about any depot untill it's too late
09:38<LadyHawk>for them to get all stubborn about it
09:44<V453000>if I understand this correctly you have 2 depots and want trains to use kind of both
09:48<LadyHawk>1 track 2 depots on a single tile split by pbs signals is how it started, traffic is clever enough then since 1 depot is always occupied with a train entering or exiting so they filter between the two perfectly
09:49<LadyHawk>now it's advanced to 3 tracks entering a 6 depot block so with a bigger junction, they're starting to show a preferred depot and wait instead of picking a free track (which there always IS)
09:49<LadyHawk>im hoping i just solved the problem but i have to wait for the trains to get there to see
09:50<LadyHawk>choice cannot be part of the equasion
09:51<LadyHawk>yeah looks like the problem is fixed.. at the point they have to reserve a track to a depot, they still have the waypoint order which is right behidn the pbs signals
09:52<LadyHawk>they dont concern themselves with depots until after they reach the waypoint, but they already are stuck on a reserved track so they cant choose which one they go to
09:52<LadyHawk><3
09:55<LadyHawk>http://ladyhawk.flawlesscorruption.net/screens/depotwaypoint.png
10:05-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
10:10<V453000>looking at people using 2way PBS makes me want to throw up
10:10<andythenorth>what is that?
10:10*andythenorth just makes simple trains
10:11<LadyHawk>lol im well aware of the popular opinion on pbs
10:12<LadyHawk>2 way pbs? the whole track is 1 way, just with the ability for trains to filter over to a different track (3 tracks side by side to handle traffic)
10:12<LadyHawk>so they devide better
10:12<V453000>sure, whole track is whole way so you will use 2way PBS there instead of 1-way
10:12<Wolf01>uhm, V453000, does the auto update of factorio work? i'm using the 0.12 and i just found i was behind of about 3 releases
10:12<V453000>makes perfect sense ;)
10:12<LadyHawk>wrong signal?
10:12<V453000>I am not sure Wolf01, maybe not atm
10:13<LadyHawk>im using the wrong signal then, but it's 1 way
10:13<LadyHawk>lol
10:13<V453000>yes LadyHawk that is the bullshit of 2way PBS
10:13<LadyHawk>it works so never bothered to use a different signal
10:13<V453000>it looks like 1way
10:13<V453000>but is 2way
10:13<V453000>yeah great approach :D
10:13<V453000>just perfect :D
10:13<LadyHawk>ahahahaha
10:14<LadyHawk>i'll do a bit of digging when ig et back from work
10:14<LadyHawk>no time now gtg
10:14<LadyHawk>:p
10:14<LadyHawk>see if i can figure out this 'one way pbs coz im using the wrong signal' thing
10:14<V453000>Wolf01: I know guys at the office did some work on it, but whether it works now, I havent tested
10:14<LadyHawk>afk
10:15<LadyHawk>signals are a bit hard to understand from reading the description.. i just went and stuck 1 down and see what the trains do with it.. if they do what i want them to do, good enough for me
10:15<Wolf01>btw, i really like the new smoke, i'm hoping to see a lot of new graphics changes in the future ;)
10:15<V453000>:D in .14 the updater even tells me that there is new version but it cant be obtained automatically atm
10:15<V453000>thanks :) more stuff coming
10:18<V453000>the smoke itself might get some small additions, but for now is is nice enough :) making it universally work for everything in the game is not very easy :) but rewarding, now it can be controlled by wind etc, like before but nicer
11:23-!-liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit []
11:37-!-Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd
11:53-!-fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:56-!-Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:59-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
11:59-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
12:09<argoneus>does ottd have unit tests?
12:09<argoneus>or is that not supported / not needed / redundant
12:21<Wolf01>ottd seem to only have asserts
12:25<@Alberth>not sure you could feasibly write unit tests, given that the source code is 300K lines
12:30<andythenorth>nor that you should
12:31<argoneus>well
12:32<argoneus>there's nothing wrong with unit tests
12:32<argoneus>they should be separated from the game code anyway
12:32<argoneus>they can only help fix things, not break them
12:32<argoneus>then again
12:32<argoneus>it's C, so there probably aren't any "units" to test
12:32<argoneus>other than random functions
12:33<@Alberth>the biggest problem of unit tests is that they take effort to create adn maintain
12:34<@Alberth>programming language has nothing to do with how to setup the program
12:35<@Alberth>but you have performance requirements that make adding arbitrary cuts for testing non-feasible
12:35<argoneus>well
12:35<argoneus>tests should be separated from the code
12:36<argoneus>code should have no idea there are any
12:37<@Alberth>we got that covered already :p
12:44<argoneus>:<
12:44<argoneus>ok sorry
12:44<@Alberth>no problem :)
12:44<argoneus>I'm still trying to figure out why and when should people write unit tests
12:45<argoneus>and I thought large scale projects is exactly where you need them
12:45<andythenorth>you need them when it costs a lot if you get it wrong
12:45<argoneus>so if someone paid you to make openttd from scratch
12:45<argoneus>you'd test things?
12:46<@Alberth>I don't think there is universal agreement on it
12:47<andythenorth>I universally agree with myself on it
12:47<@Alberth>I seldomly write unit tests, pretty much only for complicated code buried deep down which will be difficult to check in program context
12:47<V453000>yes.
12:47<@Alberth>on the other hand, there is the "test everything methodology", which says only to write code if a test fails
12:48-!-Progman [~progman@p57A196EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
12:49<andythenorth>unless you really are writing safety critical systems, that methodology smokes crack
12:49<argoneus>we're working on a "large" project for uni, with 6 people
12:49<argoneus>and I set up all sorts of linting and code coverage testing and stuff
12:49<argoneus>and I'm wondering if it's a waste of time
12:49<andythenorth>no
12:50<andythenorth>there is a current debate around a specific attitude towards TDD
12:50<andythenorth>because some of the original proponents of TDD are now concerned that it leads to test-driven design
12:50<andythenorth>and test-driven architecture
12:50<andythenorth>which can be nonsensical, but fits is philosophically pure
12:50<andythenorth>-fits
12:51-!-TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:51<argoneus>idk
12:51<argoneus>what we are doing is
12:51<argoneus>write a class, implement it to do something
12:51<andythenorth>testing, for example by linting, is non-controversial as long as (1) the test results aren’t spurious or noisy (2) they run often and fast (3) they are looked at and fixed when failing
12:51<argoneus>then write a test to make sure the class is doing what we want
12:51<andythenorth>that’s not TDD :)
12:51<argoneus>also
12:51<argoneus>isn't linting static analysis?
12:52<argoneus>I thought they were synonymous
12:52<argoneus>since all pylint does is tell me if my code is shit
12:52<andythenorth>potato / potato yes
12:52<andythenorth>it catches common errors that you might have missed
12:52<argoneus>it's also annoying
12:52<argoneus>it says stuff like
12:52<andythenorth>especially ones that weren’t triggered when you ran your code locally
12:52<argoneus>"class only has one public function"
12:52<argoneus>and that's a problem apparently
12:52<andythenorth>well that’s political
12:52<argoneus>because it should be a dict
12:52<argoneus>because reasons
12:52<@Alberth>you can configure pylint :)
12:53<andythenorth>all linters have a degree of politics embedded
12:53<andythenorth>imo
12:53<andythenorth>you have to choose what to turn off
12:53<@Alberth>by definition, I'd say, or you don't have a base to check against
12:53<argoneus>so basically
12:54<argoneus>the general consensus is write code instead of TDD, and if there's a part that might break, write a test for it
12:54<argoneus>?
12:54<andythenorth>that’s a common practice
12:54<argoneus>though
12:54<andythenorth>when it breaks in production write a guard
12:54<argoneus>I can see why people enforce linting and tests in big projects
12:54<andythenorth>if you can predict it will break in production, write a guard before you upset the customer :P
12:54<argoneus>we are only 6, but I'm happy when people write a test for code they wrote
12:54<argoneus>because then I just run the test and I know it works
12:54<@Alberth>nope
12:54<andythenorth>no you know the test works
12:54<argoneus>or I glance at the test quickly to check it's testing the right stuff
12:54<andythenorth>the test might be useless
12:54<argoneus>and then I know it's fine
12:55<argoneus>yeah
12:55<argoneus>but if the test looks reasonable
12:55<andythenorth>we have an app that had ‘good coverage’
12:55<argoneus>I don't need to worry about the implementation
12:55<argoneus>unless it's slow, which will be profiled by another tool
12:55<@Alberth>if the author of code writes the test, both code will contain the same errors
12:55<andythenorth>but one of the tests was something like: foo.x = 1, assert(foo.x == 1)
12:55<argoneus>that's where static analysis comes in
12:55<argoneus>:D
12:55<argoneus>but yeah I don't know
12:56<argoneus>we could probably do just fine with committing and pushing raw code
12:56*andythenorth finds the DHH blog post
12:56<@Alberth>errors = wrong assumptions/ideas on how things are supposed to work
12:56<argoneus>with random debug strings in the code
12:56-!-TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd
12:56<argoneus>there's also the thing about feeling good
12:56<argoneus>you feel like your code is good when pylint reports nothing and tests work
12:56<andythenorth>here you go http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/2014/tdd-is-dead-long-live-testing.html
12:56<argoneus>and then the bugs come flowing in
12:56<andythenorth>tests will save your ass
12:56<@Alberth>if you have someone else write the tests, you have a check from a secondary source
12:57<@Alberth>and imho, a test that doesn't fail is a waste of time
12:57<@Alberth>since you didn't catch anything
12:57<andythenorth>also http://www.rbcs-us.com/documents/Why-Most-Unit-Testing-is-Waste.pdf
12:57<andythenorth>argoneus: what does the app do?
12:58<argoneus>a web crawler
12:58<argoneus>that downloads and parses stuff
12:58<andythenorth>ok so validate the output and input
12:58<andythenorth>probably with a jenkins job or such
12:58<andythenorth>which CI server are you using?
12:58<argoneus>jenkins
12:58<andythenorth>ok
12:58<@Alberth>http://pythontesting.net/strategy/why-most-unit-testing-is-waste/
12:59<argoneus>though
12:59<andythenorth>so do you have it run test cases on real input data?
12:59<argoneus>we don't really have many unit tests
12:59<argoneus>it's mostly tests
12:59<argoneus>that actually download stuff
12:59<argoneus>and actually communicate with db
12:59<andythenorth>you don’t need many unit tests for that
12:59<argoneus>because none of us are proficient in mocking
12:59<argoneus>and it seems like a hassle
12:59<andythenorth>you aren’t writing a financial app
12:59<andythenorth>you don’t need to check that the pence are rounding correctly, or the decimal point isn’t transposed
12:59<andythenorth>you have a simple in-out app
13:00<argoneus>well it's not very simple
13:00<argoneus>it also has a database and webfront part
13:00<andythenorth>feed it pages with multiple encodings, malformed tags, multiple html doctypes etc
13:00<argoneus>with a priority queue and proxies and stuff
13:00<argoneus>it's a 12 month project for 6 people keep in mind
13:01<andythenorth>you can use selenium to test the web front end
13:02<andythenorth>have you written your own parser, or used off the shelf lxml or something?
13:02<argoneus>requests+lxml
13:02<andythenorth>parser is a classic thing to throw unit tests at
13:02<andythenorth>but only if you’re not using standard library code
13:02<argoneus>but yeah
13:02<argoneus>from what I've seen
13:02<argoneus>the best test is one that actually tests the whole application
13:02<argoneus>like, gives it some inputs
13:02<argoneus>goes through the whole thing
13:02<argoneus>and compares outputs
13:03<andythenorth>yes
13:03<argoneus>+ unit tests for some tricky parts that you need to debug quickly
13:03<andythenorth>it’s slower though
13:03<argoneus>like parsers, calculations
13:03<argoneus>and stuff like that
13:03<argoneus>is that a good methodology?
13:03<andythenorth>it’s pragmatic
13:03<andythenorth>there is a jenkins multijob plugin, if you can parallelise your test cases you get much faster cycle time
13:04<argoneus>i still havent figured out how to properly virtualenv with jenkins
13:04<argoneus>I found something called shiningpanda but it's weird
13:04<argoneus>by the way
13:05<argoneus>do you think the reason why many applications today use bad approaches for things and such
13:05<argoneus>is because most developers are incompetent idiots?
13:05<andythenorth>only partly
13:05<argoneus>undergrads, dropouts
13:05<andythenorth>somewhat yes
13:05<@Alberth>pretty much nobody knows how to write software
13:05<argoneus>like
13:05<argoneus>im in the final year of my bachelor's year
13:06<@Alberth>which is not surprising, given the big complexity, and the constant change of technology
13:06<argoneus>and there's still people who can't solve problems
13:06<argoneus>like they get told
13:06<argoneus>"write a program that does this"
13:06<andythenorth>this is interesting reading https://edge.org/response-detail/25521
13:06<argoneus>they look up some ways to solve it
13:06<argoneus>and instead of trying to pick the best one
13:06-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6AF55.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
13:06<andythenorth>I bailed from Civil Engineering partly because too much calculus
13:06<argoneus>they just pick a random lib and try to force it on the program
13:06<argoneus>argh
13:06<andythenorth>which working engineers told me strongly I’d never need in my job
13:06<andythenorth>of the developers I employ 3 out of 4 hated calculus
13:07<argoneus>anyway
13:07<argoneus>so this theory of things
13:07<argoneus>"all code should be tested" "coverage should be 100%"
13:07<argoneus>are these stupid opinions or not?
13:07<andythenorth>yes
13:07<andythenorth>honestly
13:07<argoneus>like, if you have a large system test, you probably get 100% coverage, no?
13:07<andythenorth>no
13:07<argoneus>and you should have an overall test
13:07<argoneus>for proper software
13:07<argoneus>or idk
13:08<andythenorth>these people are stupid, or work in a very unique environment
13:08<@Alberth>not in a million years you can do a 100% test
13:08<@Alberth>a single "if" means 2 tests
13:08<andythenorth>you can do 100% test if you write an academic project to demonstrate 100% testing
13:08<@Alberth>2 "if" means 2*2 = 4 tests
13:08<argoneus>though you are right
13:08<argoneus>there's code you don't need to test
13:08<argoneus>because it's e.g. a library
13:08<@Alberth>64 "if" means 2**64 tests
13:08<argoneus>and it's up to the maintainer to test that code
13:08<andythenorth>libraries have bugs
13:08<andythenorth>but those are Not Your Monkeys
13:09<andythenorth>we find library bugs all the time
13:09<andythenorth>if you are using lxml, you will also find library bugs :P
13:09<argoneus>so basically
13:09<argoneus>tests are good
13:09<argoneus>but don't test obvious things
13:09<andythenorth>tests are excellent
13:09<argoneus>tldr don't be an idiot
13:10<argoneus>if I have an in-out app, I have a test that compares in-out
13:10<argoneus>if I have a parser, I have unit tests for the subparts
13:10<argoneus>+ a big test for in-out
13:10<argoneus>things like that?
13:10<andythenorth>yes
13:10<Mazur>Actual users _always_ find something you'd never expect in eternity.
13:10<argoneus>I suppose you are right
13:10<argoneus>there are libraries that are 10 years old, do simple things
13:11<Mazur>And so never tested.
13:11<argoneus>and they still get patched every month
13:11<andythenorth>practically, you’re trying to catch stuff like ‘Bob made a load of parser changes, but he only fed it ascii / latin, and it barfs on UTF-8 in production’
13:12<argoneus>this kinda triggers me in my soft. eng. class though
13:12<andythenorth>you want that tested on the feature branch, before it goes anywhere near a release
13:12<argoneus>we learn all these buzzwords that people in the "real world" use
13:12-!-frosch123 [~frosch@x4d01105b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd
13:12<argoneus>and then people on the internet say it's retarded
13:12<andythenorth>oh we learn those all the time too
13:12<andythenorth>mostly from videos of keynote speeches, or more often, vendor PDFs
13:12<andythenorth>or some other crap
13:13<andythenorth>then someone turns up and says ‘now we must all do x'
13:13<andythenorth>[laughter]
13:13<argoneus>I guess it's because software development is a very new thing
13:13<argoneus>it took a while for people to figure out how to make iron into swords as well
13:13<argoneus>I guess
13:13<@Alberth>it only completely changes every X years
13:14<@Alberth>no change to build experience
13:14<argoneus>well
13:14<argoneus>I'll just keep doing things that make sense I guess
13:14<argoneus>and test things I deem test-worthy
13:14<argoneus>no need to overdo things
13:15<argoneus>time spent trying to force myself to unittest a simple class could be spent fixing actual problems
13:15<argoneus>thanks lads
13:16<@Alberth>doing what seems to make sense, and meanwhile try to improve, is the best you can do :)
13:27<frosch123>argoneus: not sure whether anyone mentioned it, but yes ottd does have unittests
13:27<frosch123>there is a gs and ai script based unittest that runs several commands
13:28<frosch123>the tests are run on the compile farm on each commit
13:29<frosch123>they are mostly for the script api, but also test some ottd internals, but nothing complex (well, "unit"-test)
13:36<@Terkhen>hello
13:40-!-Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d025cc7.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
13:41<andythenorth>hi Terkhen :)
13:42<@Terkhen>:)
13:43<andythenorth>life good?
13:43<@Terkhen>crazy, but yes :P
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27416 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2015-10-29 18:45:08 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 2 changes by kazzie
13:52-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
13:52-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
14:03-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-178.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd
14:07-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
14:07<@Alberth>moin
14:09<frosch123>heffer: thanks for the nml/pillow patch :) i pushed it to our repo
14:15-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:16-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:24*andythenorth needs to draw a vineyard
14:25<frosch123>do you make a "vineyard -> winery -> gold mine" chain ?
14:26<frosch123>hmm, i haven't played widelands in a while
14:26<andythenorth>now I have to google that :P
14:26<andythenorth>I am supposed to be doing openttd stuff :P
14:26<andythenorth>vineyard probably looks quite like http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#coffee_estate
14:26<frosch123>it is settlers 2.... well, as much as ottd is ttd
14:26<andythenorth>but I already have that in the same economy
14:27<andythenorth>widelands eh
14:28<andythenorth>does it have fog of war? o_O
14:28<frosch123>it can, but i think i disable it usually
14:29<frosch123>it lacks the catapult from s2
14:29<andythenorth>I would really like a game that is similar to warcraft 1
14:29<andythenorth>get resources, then battle
14:29<frosch123>but when there was a catapult you usually ignored the rest of the game
14:29<andythenorth>then next map
14:30<frosch123>i never played anything of the wc series
14:30<frosch123>only starcraft
14:31<frosch123>i think i backseated some c&c games though
14:31<Zuu>Hello
14:32<frosch123>hey zuu :)
14:32<andythenorth>are we releasing a new OpenTTD in April ish?
14:33<frosch123>i had some plans for my own game in 2007, but then joined openttd
14:34<frosch123>i noticed that some elements are quite similar to factorio :p
14:34<andythenorth>:P
14:35<frosch123>even though my starting point was colonization
14:35<frosch123>but by removing things i dislike and extending on things i like, it somehow is similar to factorio
14:36<frosch123>hmm, though only if i remove some parts of factorio which i dislike
14:36*Zuu made a dumbed down version of Sim Tower for last ludum dare: http://junctioneer.net/monster-tower/
14:36<frosch123>so... maybe it is not such big of a surprise that stuff that i like is similar
14:37-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
14:37<andythenorth>hmm
14:37-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:37<andythenorth>looking at pictures
14:37<andythenorth>vineyards don’t have trees
14:37<frosch123>they have a lot of hill though
14:38<frosch123>i think "hill" is the main part of a vineyard
14:38<@Alberth>at the sunny side :)
14:39<frosch123>exactly, so you can postpone drawing, and instead discuss the direction of light in ottd :)
14:39<andythenorth>but that’s solved :|
14:39<andythenorth>no interesting debate left
14:39<andythenorth>meh
14:39<frosch123>really?
14:39<andythenorth>‘solved’
14:40<andythenorth>I am right, everyone else is wrong
14:40<andythenorth>done
14:40*andythenorth finds a small tree sprite in base set
14:52<andythenorth>hmm
14:52<andythenorth>soldier trains
14:52*andythenorth ponders a GS that replicates warcraft / settlers kind of games, but with vehicles
14:52<andythenorth>logistics instead of people or units
14:52<andythenorth>needs fog of war :P
14:53<andythenorth>also programmable ‘disasters'
14:53<andythenorth>“you lost a battle, 3 ships destroyed”
14:54<frosch123>if it was settlers, it would be "vast area of infrastructure and industries destroyed"
14:55<andythenorth>trigger factory explosion
14:55<frosch123>settlers is one of those games where i have difficulties to imagine people playing it competitively in multiplayer
14:56*andythenorth has never played it
14:56<andythenorth>I saw populous played a lot
14:56<andythenorth>and black and white
14:57<frosch123>well, in settlers as i know it (settlers 1, 2 and widelands) you spend hours to build a nice economy before even thinking about going to battle
14:58-!-cha0tics [~cha0tics@ip-95-223-254-149.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #openttd
14:58<andythenorth>that’s also how I play Silcon Valley :P
14:58*andythenorth is playing SV right now
15:02-!-sim-al2 is now known as Guest7075
15:02-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-178.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd
15:06-!-Guest7075 [~sim-al2@dns25-178.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:08-!-GenevaMode [~Adium@90.212.89.0] has joined #openttd
15:23-!-shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27417 trunk/src/zoom_func.h (2015-10-29 20:23:21 +0100 )
15:23<@DorpsGek>-Doc: ScaleGUITrad (adf88)
15:29<andythenorth>what does it do?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>if there only were a way to find out...
15:30*andythenorth reading the diff
15:32<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> settlers is one of those games where i have difficulties to imagine people playing it competitively in multiplayer <-- the way i heard it (never done this myself) was like "rule: 1 hour no attacking", and then it's over pretty quicky
15:33<andythenorth>warcraft 1 a head-head (null modem) 2 player mode
15:33<andythenorth>basically it was ‘build a fuckton of catapults’
15:33<andythenorth>then win
15:34<andythenorth>quickly
15:34<andythenorth>unless your opponent had more catapults
15:34<andythenorth>good game
15:34<andythenorth>hmm http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1159071#p1159071
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>the only times i played warcraft (3) on lanparties, it was usually some adventure-ish type maps
15:36<frosch123>andythenorth: must be an american... sugar in bread :/
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>so everybody gets a hero, and then coop-style
15:37<andythenorth>sugar in your peas
15:37<andythenorth>a reference none of you will understand :)
15:37<andythenorth>not even most people in the uk
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>better than pee in your sugar.
15:38<andythenorth>+1
15:46<andythenorth>I _think_ he might run up against the cargo limit ;)
15:46<andythenorth>somewhat
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly what i just posted
15:46<andythenorth>also isn’t he just describing ECS?
15:46<andythenorth>I think george has him covered :)
15:47<andythenorth>there’s nothing wrong with the suggestions...
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>ecs has a lot of other oddities
15:55*andythenorth makes Horse
15:55<andythenorth>much bugs to fix
15:56*Zuu rebalance stairs :-)
15:58<andythenorth>:)
15:59<andythenorth>hurgh FIRS
16:00<Zuu>Some users told that they were to bright/dominating: http://ludumdare.com/compo/wp-content/compo2/479518/38630-shot0-1440364908.png
16:02<andythenorth>they are right :)
16:02<andythenorth>nice shape though
16:02<Zuu>I worked a bit on the shape today. And dimmed them down a bit.
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: the stairs (on the left) are definitely too primary-colour, whereas all the other stuff is dull shaded
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>the distinct black framing doesn't help either
16:10<Zuu>Yeah
16:11<Zuu>It was a quick draw to get the game done in 48 hours. But I do agree with the user feedback that the stairs is not really fitting well with the other graphics.
16:14-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
16:17<andythenorth>well
16:17<andythenorth>FIRS Basic + Silicon Valley or NoCarGoal
16:17<andythenorth>FIRS Full + Busy Bee
16:17<andythenorth>seems to be a sweet spot
16:24-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-178.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:42-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-178.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd
16:46<Zuu>New stairs: http://junctioneer.net/monster-tower/new-stairs.png
16:47<Zuu>I dimmed them down a bit more at first, but then decided that I want them not to dimed down because they are a key element in the game. Still better shape and a bit dimmed down compare to the old ones.
16:48<Zuu>Oh, and the image shows off a limitation with the current code. Rooms only care about having accecss, not the quality of it. And stairs cannot be built above floor 15. So stair to floor 15 and then elevator works fine for the game. :-p
16:49<frosch123>i never played simtower
16:49<frosch123>is it better to build high than broad?
16:50<Zuu>I played it a lot as kid
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i never played it either
16:51<Zuu>In SimTower, it was quite vague if the sims cared if they had to walk sidewides or not. You could have a quite wide building shareing a central elevator. The problem was more that the capacity of a single elevator was not enough for a too wide building.
16:51<Zuu>But you could of couse have more elevators and build wide.
16:51<Zuu>There was a room you got at 5:th star that could only be built at floor 100.
16:55<andythenorth>hmm that’s an idea
16:55<andythenorth>industry ladder
16:55<andythenorth>start out with just a couple of industry types available
16:55<andythenorth>GS unlocks more as you achieve goals
17:00<Zuu>Well, if the GS -> NewGRF thing is gonig to get done, it needs a use case. The GS I tried to write I end up realizing it was just FIRS supplies implemented as a GS. :-)
17:02<frosch123>hmm, the main difficulty seems to be that there is no undo knob :)
17:03<Zuu>difficulty in what?
17:03<frosch123>if i misclick and build an elevator one step to the left/right, it will look ugly forever :)
17:04<Zuu>You can click on it (while not building) to open a window where you can delete it.
17:04<frosch123>oh
17:04<Zuu>It will not only look ugly, but also not work. Because the code check if the parts are properly connected. :-)
17:04<frosch123>where do i need to "click to continue play"?
17:04<Zuu>Anywhere
17:05<frosch123>doesn't work
17:05<Zuu>Oh, then it is broken :-)
17:05<andythenorth>Zuu: iirc, we were looking at handling closure with the GS->NewGRF patch?
17:05<andythenorth>I can’t remember what my idea was at the time :)
17:06<frosch123>oi, second try, i am bankrupting :p
17:06<frosch123>i built too many offices, and could only afford one stair
17:07<frosch123>but apparantly the offices cost when empty :p
17:08<Zuu>Yeah, it is a bit harsh in that if you get into the red then it is hard to get out. No loans to take.
17:11<Zuu>Oh btw, you can "click to continue" using the enter key as the continue link gets focus but cannot be clicked until I solve the bug. :-)
17:12-!-hawking [~hawking@h215n4-vj-d3.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #openttd
17:12-!-nadavs [~nadsnir@5.29.213.174] has joined #openttd
17:13-!-hawking is now known as Guest7086
17:13-!-Guest7086 [~hawking@h215n4-vj-d3.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit []
17:13-!-hawking_ [~hawking@h215n4-vj-d3.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #openttd
17:14-!-hawking_ is now known as Guest7087
17:18<Zuu>Ah.. the continue link got no width or height. :-)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>that probably makes it difficult to click on :p
17:20<Zuu>I use a hybrid between HTML5 canvas for graphics and transparent DOM elemets for user input. Not sure if it is the best solution, but it is an interesting one. :-)
17:24-!-gelignite [~gelignite@mue-88-130-88-012.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #openttd
17:33<andythenorth>bedtime :D
17:33-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd []
17:41-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #openttd [Leaving]
17:41-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
17:55-!-frosch123 [~frosch@x4d01105b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
17:55-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:17-!-Progman [~progman@p57A196EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:27-!-gelignite [~gelignite@mue-88-130-88-012.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/1kso8Ta]
19:04-!-Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:12-!-cha0tics_ [~cha0tics@ip-109-90-201-47.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #openttd
19:20-!-cha0tics [~cha0tics@ip-95-223-254-149.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:23-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6AF55.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:26-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-178.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:29-!-Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
19:43-!-Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it]
19:55-!-Pikka [~Octomom@106-69-113-24.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
20:21<Wolf01>'night
20:21-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:27-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd
20:31-!-cha0tics_ [~cha0tics@ip-109-90-201-47.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:39-!-cha0tics_ [~cha0tics@216.151.180.33] has joined #openttd
21:05-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
21:22-!-liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
21:22-!-fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
21:30-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!]
21:57-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/]
22:37-!-Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d025cc7.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd
22:46-!-Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d025cc7.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:45-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye]
23:47-!-fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
---Logclosed Fri Oct 30 00:00:10 2015