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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-10-30

---Logopened Fri Oct 30 00:00:10 2015
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03:45*andythenorth considers making chibi chinese trains
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03:46<Pikka>but it's been done
03:46<andythenorth>really nicely too
03:46<andythenorth>I’m just jealous
03:46<Pikka>are they hand drawn? I can't tell
03:48<Supercheese>they're certainly well-drawn
04:07<andythenorth>super-rendered no?
04:07<andythenorth>also http://m.xkcd.com/1597/
04:20<andythenorth>yeah, super-rendered http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=187875
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07:24<Pikka>o/
07:25<@Alberth>moin
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07:29<andythenorth>o/
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08:27<andythenorth>the thing about trucks
08:28<andythenorth>is you need a lot on long routes
08:28<andythenorth>a *lot*
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08:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's what ctrl+clone is for
08:29<andythenorth>then if there is a supply problem, they block stations horribly :D
08:29*andythenorth may be missing the point of the game somewhere
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>there's no "overflow depot" for trucks
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10:58<@Alberth>o/
10:59<andythenorth>o/
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11:01<Wolf01>o/
11:01<@Alberth>\o
11:02*andythenorth wonders what % of lines in the channel are o/
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>an insignificant amount compared to "x is joining/leaving"
11:03<Wolf01>mmmh, i need to find a way to optimise my game engine, just the tiles and a moving square runs at 42-50FPS and eats about 60MB of RAM :|
11:04<@Alberth>nah, make a deal with a major memory chip manufacturer :p
11:04<Wolf01>also i want the tile array to support multiple levels in future
11:05<Wolf01>so i'll switch to a jagged array
11:05<@Alberth>I use stacks of voxels
11:06<@Alberth>ie base_height + number of levels
11:06<Wolf01>mine is a 2D game, a remake of a remake i made a lot of time ago
11:07<@Alberth>ah, meta-meta-game creation :)
11:07<@Alberth>I have a dimetric view
11:07<Wolf01>but voxels are interesting, they could add nice special effects to the game
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11:08<@Alberth>voxels for me are nothing more than a cube box in conceptual 3d space, nothing to do with graphics
11:09<@Alberth>ie it's a tile + height upto the next level tile
11:10<@Alberth>a way to split the world in tiles
11:10<Wolf01>yeah, but since i have destroyable walls, i could make them with voxels (just one level) and spread them around with each explosion
11:10<@Alberth>sounds good :)
11:11<Wolf01>the game is this one: http://hsto.org/storage2/531/e3b/d67/531e3bd679bb98bf6c55821de186d41e.jpg
11:12<Wolf01>there are a lot of 2/3D clones, but i want to make mine, with modding support :)
11:15<@Alberth>https://github.com/FreeRCT/FreeRCT this is the game I am talking about, clone of a well-known theme park development game :p
11:16<Wolf01>:o
11:17<Wolf01>eheh, i see some well known names on the contributors page, well done ;)
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11:37<@Alberth>figured out how you need 50MB for that? seems a bit steep for a flat 2d area
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11:39<Wolf01>at least 15MB are for the jit debugger
11:39<Wolf01>so the release build should be less hungry
11:39<@Alberth>that should be simple to reclaim :)
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11:41<Wolf01>i think it's the tiles data structure i'm using, oop is really memory wasteful compared to other solutions, but it's easier to work with
11:44<Wolf01>i'm tuning the rendering engine now, maybe that could help a lot
11:46<Wolf01>since some layers don't change for the entire match, i compose the images starting from the tiles just once, then i have a hamburger of bitmaps to draw at every tick
11:47<Wolf01>maybe the bitmaps are too much expensive and i should just redraw the dirty tiles
11:47<@Alberth>blitting at the video is pretty fast
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11:48<@Alberth>as long as you use GPU
11:49<Wolf01>uhm, i didn't think about that, i should use the xna stuff instead of the internal functions
11:50<@Alberth>isn't xna sort of dead?
11:51<Wolf01>maybe it is, i have also unity as alternative
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12:06<@Alberth>quak
12:10<frosch123>hoi
12:11<Wolf01>o/
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12:17<Wolf01>o/
12:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27418 trunk/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp (2015-10-30 17:18:03 +0100 )
12:18<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6329] [FS#6379]: Desync due to incorrect storage of segments with different railtype in the YAPF cache. (JGR)
12:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27419 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2015-10-30 17:18:39 +0100 )
12:18<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6369]: CmdSellRailWagon did not revert all actions properly when no orderlist could be allocated. (Juanjo)
12:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27420 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2015-10-30 17:19:09 +0100 )
12:19<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6362]: GrowTownAtRoad sometimes returned false, even when a house was built. (_dp_)
12:19<andythenorth>yay :)
12:19<andythenorth>commits :)
12:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27421 trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp (2015-10-30 17:19:33 +0100 )
12:19<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6265]: Consider text and icon sizes when drawing the client list. (_dp_)
12:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27422 /trunk/src (aircraft_cmd.cpp direction_func.h) (2015-10-30 17:20:00 +0100 )
12:20<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6341]: Aircraft picked the wrong airport entry point, if airports were rotated by 180 degree. (marcole)
12:22<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/20151030/ <- some more patches by myself for review
12:23<andythenorth>o_O
12:23<andythenorth>busy
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12:50<@Alberth>frosch123: 22241 would it be useful to move the todo text to the order gui?
12:56<@Alberth>22244 !(flags & DC_QUERY_COST) -> (flags & DC_QUERY_COST) == 0 ?
12:56<@Alberth>otherwise looks good to me
13:15<frosch123>do you know a good place in order_gui ?
13:16<@Alberth>in the class header, @todo ?
13:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27423 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2015-10-30 18:17:54 +0100 )
13:18<@DorpsGek>-Fix: When towns expanded single-bit roadtiles using a grid-layout, they used the layout position of the neighbouring tile.
13:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27424 trunk/src/road.cpp (2015-10-30 18:19:01 +0100 )
13:19<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6374]: Towns did not connect roads to existing roads, unless they had only a single roadbit. Otoh, towns also tried to connect to single roadbit tiles such as tunnels and depots, even though they were not connectable in the direction of interest.
13:22<_dp_>yaaay, bugfixes!)))
13:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27425 /trunk/src (order_gui.cpp window.cpp) (2015-10-30 18:23:16 +0100 )
13:23<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5842]: Crash when switching to or taking over companies, when an order window of a vehicle of the new company was opened. Now close those windows.
13:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27426 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2015-10-30 18:24:05 +0100 )
13:24<@DorpsGek>-Change: Round loading percentage in loading indicators and conditional orders towards 50%, so that 0% and 100% mean completely empty or full.
13:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27427 /trunk/src (4 files) (2015-10-30 18:24:30 +0100 )
13:24<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Use the NewGRF railtype sorting order in the infrastructure window.
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13:27<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27428 /trunk/src (vehicle_cmd.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp) (2015-10-30 18:27:21 +0100 )
13:27<@DorpsGek>-Fix: When selecting a refit cargo for orders, do not check whether the vehicle is in a depot or station, and do not ask whether the vehicle currently allows station-refitting. Also hide the refit cost for orders, it is not predictable.
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13:32<andythenorth>^ what does that actually change?
13:32<frosch123>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1141539#p1141539 <- that
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14:08<andythenorth>might be time for a Busy Bee game again soon
14:08<andythenorth>after I beat SV :P
14:17<@Alberth>:)
14:17<andythenorth>I should fix my BB patch :P
14:18<andythenorth>it needs savegame support
14:18<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7521
14:18<andythenorth>oh there was some reason I couldn’t just do savegame support
14:18<andythenorth>there is a serialise function that needs extending iirc, it assumes only goals
14:20<@Alberth>reverse condition? if (this.accept.ind in cdata.won_goals["industries"]) { ... } else { /* do something */ } :)
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14:20<@Alberth>probably if (!(this.accept.ind in cdata.won_goals["industries"]))
14:23<@Alberth>gn
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14:54<planetmaker>good evenink :)
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14:55<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
14:56<tipsyTentacle>Hello. (:
15:04<Wolf01>uh, i just remembered i need to write a collision system :|
15:06<tipsyTentacle>Are you coding a game? :O
15:06<Wolf01>yes
15:07<tipsyTentacle>:O good luck and have fun!
15:07<andythenorth>bounding box
15:07<Wolf01>i expected "you are a fool"
15:08<andythenorth>you are a fool
15:08<frosch123>i wondered whether you want to detect, prevent or encourage collissions
15:09<Wolf01>all the three
15:10<Wolf01>i want to prevent tanks colliding with walls, i want projectiles colliding with walls and tanks, and i want to know when something is colliding with something but not to block it
15:11<Wolf01>i'm doing it from zero, i want to learn the hard way before giving up and use gamemaker or some other game studio
15:11<tipsyTentacle>So have a system to detect it first and then everything else will fall into place? If collision detected, prevent movement?
15:12<Wolf01>yes
15:14<andythenorth>I don’t know how it’s done properly
15:14<andythenorth>but I would use primitive shapes
15:14<andythenorth>and test for overlap
15:14<andythenorth>by comparing ranges of x and y co-ords
15:15<Wolf01>me too, with rectangles i have the intersect functions
15:15<andythenorth>on each frame
15:15<andythenorth>oh easy then :)
15:15<Wolf01>so, i can test on bounding boxes
15:15<andythenorth>job done, no?
15:15<Wolf01>maybe
15:15<Wolf01>it's all easy when it's an idea
15:15<andythenorth>if the shape is too big / complex for a single rectangle, more rectangles
15:15<Wolf01>nah, i just have squares
15:16<andythenorth>in flash I sometimes used to ‘optimise’ by not checking objects that were too far apart to collide
15:16<frosch123>Wolf01: you may want to divide objects into moving ones and static ones
15:16<andythenorth>it’s quite easy to calculate and cache that for n frames if your objects have predictable velocity
15:17<andythenorth>oops
15:17<Wolf01>frosch123, yes, the moving ones are the only which should check
15:17<frosch123>put the static ones into an octree or similar to reduce the number of tests
15:17<andythenorth>if I look like I know how to program, no-one will help me :o
15:17*andythenorth thinks of dumb questions to ask
15:17<andythenorth>octree, that’s a good word I don’t know
15:17<andythenorth>proves I’m not proper
15:17<frosch123>andythenorth: do you know what a binary tree is?
15:17<andythenorth>unfortunately
15:18<frosch123>if yes, then think of a binary tree as something one dimensional, a quadtree as the same in two dimensions, and an octree as the same in three dimensions
15:19<andythenorth>makes sense
15:19<Wolf01>also, i really need to reduce drastically the code duplication, i just started to develop using c# :P
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15:57<andythenorth>I won!!!
15:58<andythenorth>time for a new game
15:59<frosch123>my only customer :)
15:59<andythenorth>GS is a neglected area
16:00<andythenorth>if we had a new scenario format…
16:05*andythenorth needs snow in tropic
16:05<andythenorth>for Argentina / Chile
16:05<andythenorth>:P
16:13<andythenorth>what will I play next?
16:13<andythenorth>FIRS Tropic Basic is boring
16:13<andythenorth>I mean, I’ve improved it, but still boring
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16:26<andythenorth>I could play NoCarGoal o_O
16:26<andythenorth>I _could_ write a GS
16:26<andythenorth>but then I’d have two problems :P
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16:37<Wolf01>enough for today... i can draw multiple tiles and tiles with sub-tiles
16:37<Wolf01>monday i could try to develop the collisions
16:37<andythenorth>:)
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16:39<Wolf01>tiles with subtiles could be nasty, because they are the destroyable wall tiles and i need to check the bounding boxes of the sub tiles
16:41<andythenorth>nah should be ok
16:41<andythenorth>if I’ve understood you correctly
16:41<andythenorth>“when I used to write flash games…”
16:42<andythenorth>it’s reasonably common to check the (fast) bounding box of a large parent object
16:42<andythenorth>and then iff collision detected, check the bb of subtiles
16:42<andythenorth>or subobjects
16:43<andythenorth>the interesting cases are when multiple moving objects collide with a destroyable or movable object :P
16:43<andythenorth>at what point do you move or destroy the object? o_O
16:43<andythenorth>after all the collisions, or whilst detecting?
16:44<andythenorth>and if the movable objects have a trajectory, how do you calculate it when there are multiple collisions to sum the effect of? o_O
16:44<andythenorth>assuming you don’t have ‘proper’ physics :P
16:45<Wolf01>oh, i don't really need physics
16:46<Wolf01>i just want the objects to stop or destroy on contact
16:46<andythenorth>easy
16:46<andythenorth>you can get a long way without physics anyway :D
16:46<andythenorth>faking works well
16:46*andythenorth wonders if the universe actually fakes it too
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16:47<Wolf01>if you think we might be a shadow of a 4th dimension object, all we can observe is fake
16:48<andythenorth>plato’s cave
16:51<Wolf01>yeah
16:56<andythenorth>hmm
16:56*andythenorth wonders
16:57<andythenorth>is the FIRS Heart of Darkness economy actually just a nasty joke with racist underrtones?
16:57<andythenorth>is it just bad taste?
16:57<Wolf01>is it based on the book?
16:58<andythenorth>kind of yes
16:58<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#<economy.Economy%20object%20at%200x1545250>
16:58<andythenorth>it’s based on the economy of congo
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>that link is not properly encoded
16:59<andythenorth>no
16:59<andythenorth>I should fix that
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17:00<andythenorth>anyway http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
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17:04<Wolf01>i think it reflects really well the spirit of the game
17:04<andythenorth>colonial exploitation? o_O
17:06<Wolf01>nah, just the interpretation of Mr. Conrad: if you let a man to obtain power, he will use it to become a destroyer trying to become a god
17:08<Wolf01>if you want to become a god of transportation, you'll end up with a massive infrastructure and the map is no more what it was at the start of the game
17:13<andythenorth>good words
17:14<Wolf01>also i bet you don't give a fuck of the poor people you just bulldozed with their houses only to make some space to enlarge the station
17:14<Wolf01>:)
17:16<Wolf01>bah, lego ideas failed all the 2015 projects on the first review round :|
17:17<Wolf01>too much intellectual property
17:20<andythenorth>ha
17:21<Wolf01>https://www.flickr.com/photos/123742960@N07/21987734663/ lovely
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>so, what happened to "intellectual property increases the creativity"ß
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>?
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>because, alledgedly, people get more creative with the prospect of owning property afterwards?
17:24<Wolf01>i think the problem is another, lego awards creativity (or at least it should), but people do what they like more, and they like well done creativity of other people (which owns the property)
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and that is the ultimate flaw of all the intellectual property legislation. it assumes a world where all creativity is unrelated, but in the real world, all creativity is based on other people's previous creativity. there is never something isolated or completely new.
17:26<Wolf01>correct
17:29<Wolf01>for example, i wanted to submit some creations to ideas, but none of them is really a new thing, all is based on the work of other people, i put my own changes but it's not enough
17:30<Wolf01>also because creations from my own fantasy are a bit awful :P
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19:00<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aepq0pB_460s.jpg lol, it suits me really well
19:04<Supercheese>Jeez, I can't pick which to vote for this month's screenshot contest, they are all so good
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20:05<fjb>Moin
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20:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say "Mahlzeit", but it doesn't really apply :p
20:13<fjb>It's always time to eat.
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20:18<Eddi|zuHause>not for gremlins
20:19<Wolf01>mmm, i have cookies right here... no they are on the left
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LYYoGpiq9Q <-- this'll be awome
20:26<Wolf01>lol
20:30<Wolf01>'night
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21:07<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: so, why does the forum always seem to freeze around backup-time?
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 31 00:00:11 2015