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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-14

---Logopened Sat Nov 14 00:00:32 2015
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02:18<andythenorth>o/
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03:29<andythenorth>lo Alberth
03:29<@Alberth>moin andy
03:36*andythenorth throws some FIRS off a cliff
03:36<andythenorth>to make new bits
03:37<Supercheese>synthesis via destruction eh?
03:38<andythenorth>possibly
03:47<andythenorth>hmm
03:57<andythenorth>industry nml props prob_in_game and prob_random
03:57<andythenorth>do the opposite of what I expected
03:59<andythenorth>nvm
04:01<@Alberth>you learn new stuff all the time :)
04:03<andythenorth>ambiguously named props
04:03<andythenorth>“this is why we have docs” :P
04:04<andythenorth>I expect prob_random to be industries generated in game, because it uses a random industry construction cb
04:04<andythenorth>nvm
04:05<@Alberth>we could add a second name for "prob_random" that better expresses what it does
04:06<andythenorth>prob_map_gen
04:06<andythenorth>I could just fix that in FIRS :P
04:06<@Alberth>haha, you copied nml names? :)
04:07<@Alberth>own names are always best :p
04:12<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pylgirvfu :)
04:14<andythenorth>controversially, I kept a 1:1 mapping between the property names in FIRS compile, and the existing nml property that they refer t o :P
04:15<andythenorth>Alberth: push that? o_O
04:15<andythenorth>needs a wiki update too, which I can’t do (can’t login)
04:23<@Alberth>using nml names means you get docimented names for free :p
04:23-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
04:23<@Alberth>hi zuu
04:24<Zuu>Hello Alberth
04:24<Zuu>I'm here to admit that I accidently wrote a patch for OpenTTD :-)
04:24<@Alberth>oops :)
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04:25<andythenorth>oh noes
04:25<@Alberth>planetmaker: how does the added property (see paste) look to you?
04:26<Zuu>When download content window displays a main type of content, it hides all other unless they have been selected for download as dependency.
04:26<Zuu>I though I had a patch for that, but I didn't, so I ended up writing one.
04:26<@Alberth>makes sense
04:27<@Alberth>ah, too much time travel confuses the mind about past and future :)
04:28<Zuu>Currently it disables that filter when you use text filter. But I might use both filters instead. If not, it would probably need to alter sort order of type sort to show the main type at top.
04:29<Zuu>I saw now when you open the scenario download content window, the whole screen is full of NewGRFs etc. and no scenario is shown unless you scroll past all of them.
04:33<andythenorth>hmm
04:33<andythenorth>FIRS does not need ‘intermediate’ economies
04:33<andythenorth>I reckon
04:34*andythenorth makes another big one
04:34<@Alberth>filter on type in the download window would be useful I think
04:34<@Alberth>invite others to make such economies?
04:35<Zuu>Hmm, current patch doesn't add onything to the GUI. but maybe it should add a drop down that show eg. 'scenario' and is disabled when you open the window from play scenario?
04:35<andythenorth>I think there’s a standing option to patch their own FIRS :)
04:35<@Alberth>although we may end up with loads of firs-like industry grfs :)
04:35<andythenorth>which is what GarryG has done for Australia
04:36<andythenorth>and the other one that I forget the name of
04:36<andythenorth>their are two FIRS forks active atm :)
04:36<andythenorth>SPI
04:36<@Alberth>ah yes, the pax thing
04:36<andythenorth>also there / their /s stupid English
04:36<@Alberth>never played it, could do that one time
04:37<@Alberth>:)
04:37*andythenorth wants to play MP coop game with andythenorth grfs
04:37<@Alberth>Zuu: why disable, just select 'scenarios' ?
04:37<andythenorth>but andythenorth grfs are always ‘needs a push build, not on bananas’
04:37<andythenorth>there is a meta problem, I won’t release without testing, and MP testing needs a release :P
04:38<andythenorth>2016: bananas 2
04:38<@Alberth>make an alpha release, test, make a proper release, play in coop?
04:39<@Alberth>we need some sort of design first, I think
04:40<Zuu>Alberth: Perhaps. Though I think I will focus on the actual filtering first. Thinking about rewriting it a bit so it will AND the two filters instead of disable the type filter when you use text search. At least for the newbie scenario case, they may still be confused when looking for scenarios and getting lot of hits when typing 'tutorial', but maybe that will make it too easy for them and dumb it down for all others?
04:40<andythenorth>can’t release any FIRS 2 to bananas until April 2016, because of the OpenTTD industry limit :)
04:40<@Alberth>you don't think the "space" problem with firs farms exists because he made a scenario or so? andy?
04:41<andythenorth>I don’t know, I didn’t look further :)
04:41<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=188157 looks very constructed :)
04:42<andythenorth>ho yes
04:42<@Alberth>Zuu: it would probably help if it would be marked as "dependency" or "used by X" or so
04:43<@Alberth>maybe even in a separate list, but that may be a lot of work
04:43<@Alberth>not sure why he compresses it that much, at 2048**2, you have enough space
04:43<Zuu>True, but do we have horisontal space for dependency text?
04:44<@Alberth>no idea
04:44<andythenorth>maybe he’s trying to get high production
04:45<@Alberth>a column with [x] and a tooltip perhaps? no idea about feasibility though
04:45<@Alberth>definitely for high production, I'd say
04:46<andythenorth>it may even be FIRS 2
04:46<andythenorth>production numbers look high
04:46*andythenorth shrugs
04:47<Zuu>It could be done I guess, but probably would need a reverse of ContentInfo::dependencies array or even just a single bit, as that check would be done for all items in the list. As double-looping the whole list on OnInvalidateData may be a bit too much.
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04:51<@Alberth>he's in 1.5.2, not firs2
04:52<@Alberth>you need that information anyway to display the dependencies, I think
04:56<Zuu>Actually not. First I did a second loop over all content to see if there are any dependencies. This only need to be performed for content with type different from the main content type. But then I found out it is enough for the filter to just include items of the main type or have been selected (manually or auto) for download.
04:57<Zuu>OpenTTD auto-select dependencies before the filtering is done, so it can just check for items being (auto)selected.
04:58<@Alberth>ah, nice
04:58<@Alberth>just indicating it's a dependency might be enough then?
04:59<@Alberth>which is probably equivalent to "not the main type"
04:59<Zuu>Yep
04:59<@Alberth>until you have newgrfs that depend on other newgrfs :p
04:59<@Alberth>eg ECS
04:59<Zuu>oh yeah
05:00<@Alberth>don't think it's coded in the download though
05:01<@Alberth>maybe it needs a higher level description, sort of groups of things together
05:01<Zuu>Problem is that one item can be selected as dependency for many "main content"
05:02<Zuu>It could use a confirm window which list all you selected and after that all you have as dependency. Or make a third filter that does just that. :-)
05:02<@Alberth>hmm, maybe highlight deps if you select some content?
05:02<Zuu>Sort order would of course be to alter the type sort to put 'main type' at top regardles of alphabetical sort.
05:03<@Alberth>confirm window would work too, package management update does that too
05:03<Zuu>different bg color? Italics or grey text would be my choice elsewhere, but neither of those I think work in OpenTTD.
05:04<@Alberth>hmm, what did I do in "hide vehicle" in buy window?
05:05<@Alberth>I added "(hidden)" I think, not sure if I did something else too
05:06<Zuu>They do use grey text color. So perhaps my memory was wrong about grey text and OpenTTd.
05:06<@Alberth>it's quite new :)
05:07<Zuu>Oh, there we had time travel again :-p
05:08<Zuu>Hmm buy window use white text to show selected. DL content window use grey background.
05:09<@Alberth>obviously, or things would be too consistent :p
05:10<Zuu>:-)
05:10<Zuu>Though, grey background to show selection on a grey window would not work so good. And in a table, it makes sense to highlight using background.
05:12*andythenorth needs more types of port industry
05:12<andythenorth>3 is not enough
05:13<andythenorth>this is a case where the silly industry random cargo cb could be applied :P
05:13<andythenorth>but that breaks all the things
05:13<@Alberth>some container transfer thingie?
05:13<andythenorth>intermodal port?
05:13<andythenorth>maybe
05:14<andythenorth>similarly, petro-chemical terminal
05:14<@Alberth>ah yes, some long pipe sticking out into the sea :)
05:15<andythenorth>the ships still have to dock at coast though :)
05:15<andythenorth>due to docks
05:15<andythenorth>NewDocks
05:15<@Alberth>can't modify docks?
05:15<@Alberth>stuck with 2 tiles I guess :(
05:15<andythenorth>I think that’s fixable
05:16<@Alberth>or make a 2tile pipe :p
05:16<andythenorth>I just don’t know how, and I’m inclined to finish some things before trying new things
05:16<Zuu>When you open a dl content window from eg. play scenario, it seems that network layer make a limited fetch of content. Still it manages to include dependencies. My point is though, disable "non main type filter" when you search in would include some more content (dependencies to visible content), but not the whole list of content available. Would that be cunfusing, and maybe better to not show dependencies until you select something needing it?
05:16<andythenorth>better docks are one of the few worthwhile ponies imho
05:16<Zuu>Or is it from usability just better to not even hide them, but make them grey and sorted to the bottom?
05:17<@Alberth>good approach andy, finishing X before doing Y, I still mostly fail at that
05:18<Zuu>Hmm.. maybe I should start with the sort part and see what we get out of that. Postpone filtering until it is clear it is needed too.
05:19<andythenorth>I have at least 4X
05:19<@Alberth>I would only add display of dependent things
05:19<andythenorth>adding Y would be overwhelming :P
05:19<Zuu>No sort fix? I mean open the scenario dl content, and you see not a single scenario. :-)
05:20<@Alberth>euhm, yeah, I was just answering your last question, I didn't understand it included sort fixing too :)
05:22<Zuu>The sort fix could generate bug reports though. "why is not alphabetical sort working in my game?" :-)
05:22<@Alberth>I thought it was only about displaying more things
05:23<@Alberth>I am missing something here probably
05:23<Zuu>Showing of A being a dependency is something I probably will postpone.
05:23<@Alberth>separate patch would be useful at least
05:23<Zuu>yep
05:23<@planetmaker>Alberth, I like that change to the property name
05:23*andythenorth considers a gypsum cargo
05:23<andythenorth>gypsum -> cement plant
05:23<@Alberth>alphabetical sort includes type of content? ugh
05:24<andythenorth>but then I have to draw a gypsum mine :P
05:24<Zuu>No, but our type sort is alphabetical sort on the localized type name IIRC
05:24<@Alberth>planetmaker: ok, thanks, and good morning :)
05:24<@planetmaker>good morning also :)
05:24<Zuu>My change would put the main type on top (or bottom with descending sort) regardless of its localized name.
05:25<Zuu>Hopefully not making too many users think the sort is broken...
05:25<@Alberth>filter on type would be less confusing
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05:26<Zuu>As in strict filter, or as in my patch - include dependecies when selected?
05:27<Zuu>And with a bonus question: disable type filter when using text filter?
05:27<@Alberth>I often sort on availability (first column) after selecting 'update', to check what will be downloaded
05:27<@Alberth>so you could add such meta types, for example
05:28<@Alberth>settings window keeps the filter, and adds a warning
05:29<@Alberth>in particular when the filter kills all selection
05:29<Zuu>Oh.. I though it disabled the filter. But that explains why no code in the whole OpenTTD yet use the GUIList capability of selecting what filter to be active.
05:30<@Alberth>I coded the warning, to avoid bug reports "where is setting X?" :)
05:31<Zuu>Then I follow your example and hide non-main content in the search filter wihch is what I would prefer myself, but though it would go against the settings window.
05:31<@Alberth>ha :p
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05:32<Zuu>Looking up your warning now, it is quite clever in telling you exactly if you need to go to advanced or expert to show all. :-)
05:36<@Alberth>warning display is a bit easy to miss, hidden quite well in plain sight :)
05:37<Zuu>Oh.. settings_gui.cpp is not using GUIList.
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05:43<LordAro>morning all
05:44<@Alberth>hi hi
05:48<@Alberth>planetmaker: added the new property to the industries property list, does it need to be added elsewhere?
05:49*andythenorth ponders hydroelectric plant
05:49<andythenorth>deliver building materials to a river site, then it floods a 4x16 section of the map :P
05:49<andythenorth>can’t quite do that in newgrf
05:51<@Alberth>make a new disaster :p
05:51<@Alberth>cargo-delivery disaster :p
05:51<andythenorth>ha
05:51<andythenorth>or cargo delivery failure disaster
05:51<andythenorth>dam bursts
05:53<@Alberth>hmm, scenario to reconnect cities surrounded by water after a flood, where you have to reclaim land but with a high land-build cost?
05:54<@planetmaker>hm, I don't think so - except wiki
05:54<@planetmaker>but let's look
05:54<Zuu>Hmm, in GUIList you can supply multiple filter functions. When two filters are to be AND togeather, should I just join that to a single filter function, or in my BuildContentList() apply one filter at a time? The later breaks it a bit in that GUIList will keep track if it has been filtered yet or not. So perhaps just make a single filter function that filter both on text and type.
05:55<andythenorth>‘waterworld’
05:55<andythenorth>:P
05:55<@Alberth>planetmaker: list of changes in trunk?
05:55<andythenorth>needs a GS that hands out more land for completing goals
05:56<Zuu>That is what the Split scenario does :-)
05:56<Zuu>Complete the goal on the main island, and it will raise a land bridge to a smaller island where there are some bonus industries.
05:57<andythenorth>ha
05:57<@Alberth>I was thinking you have to pay for the land :p
05:57<Zuu>It was made before GS could construct industries. So you better complete the goal fast enough so the bonus industries doesn't close themself.
05:57<@planetmaker>Alberth, for nml that usually is compiled for each release based on the commit messages
05:58<@Alberth>ok, sounds easy enough
05:59<@Alberth>I just duplicated the text of prob_random mostly, with some added before/after version text, is that enough, does it need "depreceated" or so?
06:00<andythenorth>coal mines in tropic? o_O
06:00*andythenorth teddy bear coding here
06:01*Zuu solved his AND filter he thinks
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06:08<@Alberth>gold mines is more likely, isn't it? (or diamond mines)
06:08<andythenorth>got diamonds
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06:11<andythenorth>loads of coal in congo
06:11<andythenorth>just not mined :)
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>"rare earths"
06:11<andythenorth>for your phone
06:12<andythenorth>with child labour
06:12*andythenorth making alternate reality post-colonial thing now
06:14<Flygon>Now I want a 8192*4096 Africa map :U
06:14<Flygon>It'd be neat to start from 1500 or something, assuming appropriate GRFs
06:18<andythenorth>this will be a big economy, that should be fun to play with Busy Bee
06:18<andythenorth>although Busy Bee needs fixing also :)
06:20<Flygon>Shame it's not possible to have a Civ II style OpenTTD map yet
06:20<Flygon>That'd be kickass as hell
06:20<Flygon>But I understand why that isn't a feature yet
06:20<Flygon>What with the pathfinding, and new method of mapping coordinates required
06:22<@Alberth>I wondered whether BB should steer towards re-use of existing infra structure
06:22<andythenorth>interesting idea
06:22<andythenorth>I think that would be Efficient Bee
06:23<andythenorth>or Maximum Utilisation of Capital Assets Bee
06:23<andythenorth>or Ant Trails Bee
06:23<@Alberth>ha :D
06:23<andythenorth>I like that BB makes a mess of my map ;)
06:25<@Alberth>it needs more random :p
06:25<@Alberth>or even actively steering away from re-use :p
06:26<Zuu>It would be interesting with the idea where GS can enable/disable range of tiles for a player to build on. Then it could expand this range as your company grows forcing you to incrementally grow your allowed area.
06:27<@Alberth>there are lots of uses for "collections of tiles", eg indsutry creation limits
06:27<@Alberth>ie coalmines in the north
06:28<@Alberth>but specifying such areas is tricky, you probably either need to do it in squirrel, or in a scenario, with the new format(?)
06:29<@Alberth>another option is to give full control over payment of transported cargo
06:29<@Alberth>ie as policy, you only get paid for transport between X and Y according to this and this formula
06:30<andythenorth>can we track cargo source?
06:30<andythenorth>I thought that was infeasible?
06:30<@Alberth>people will stop transporting other stuff very quickly :p
06:30<@Alberth>cargo-payment code does it, right?
06:30<andythenorth>I don’t know :D
06:31<@Alberth>well, do you get paid for transported cargo? :D
06:31<@Alberth>but you can't do it for the actual transferred goods, in real time
06:31<@Alberth>so you must make a payment policy that openttd follows
06:33<@Alberth>hmm, it would collide with cargo-dist
06:33<@Alberth>not good :(
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>iirc there was a NewGRF callback for cargo payment
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>but GS don't work in callbacks...
07:04<andythenorth>it wouldn’t have to collide with cdist
07:04<andythenorth>just build point-point
07:06<@Alberth>newgrf would work too, but then you need a GS -> NewGRF connection
07:19*andythenorth needs to add some kind of farm for grain http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#<economy.Economy%20object%20at%200x29da210>
07:19<andythenorth>bah I should fix those docs :(
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07:33<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#hopes-and-impediments
07:33<andythenorth>better
07:37<@Alberth>grain grows in sub-tropic?
07:37<@Alberth>hmm, I guess it does
07:38<@Alberth>I am tempted to add rice, but it's the wrong continent :)
07:38<@Alberth>perhaps import grain?
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: add a Economy.__repr__ function?
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>or use str() at the right place?
07:42<andythenorth>I just used the name string instead and do replace(‘ ’, ‘-’).lower()
07:42<andythenorth>.lower is only for appearance, it’s not needed
07:42<andythenorth>even ‘ ‘ gets %20 but that’s ugly :P
07:42<andythenorth>Alberth: there is rice growing in africa it seems :)
07:44<Zuu>Alberth: Oh, you are not in #openttd.dev. I posted a filter patch there. :-)
07:44<andythenorth>I think I’ll save rice, but it should be included in FIRS
07:45<andythenorth>hmm too many stockyards
07:45<andythenorth>they’re everywhere
07:45<andythenorth>people should eat less meat
07:46<Zuu>http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd.dev&date=1447459200
07:47<Zuu>If you are interested to read it.
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08:01<Wolf01>hi
08:01<@Alberth>o/
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08:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r27443 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 14:06:26 +0100 )
08:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Negoation in comment was wrong.
08:08<Wolf01>"negoation" is wrong too
08:14<Wolf01>pfff each time i open steam it needs to update almost 6 games :|
08:15<@Alberth>luckily it only updates 5.9 games then :)
08:15<andythenorth>I can’t use steam
08:15<andythenorth>I’d rather just not buy games than suffer steam
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>you can tell it to only update on start of the game...
08:16<Wolf01>8 games today
08:16<andythenorth>I don’t want to enter my password just to play a game
08:16<andythenorth>I don’t want forced updates
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>i hardly have 8 games in total...
08:16<Wolf01>pfff and when i want to play a game i need to wait for it to update?
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>or you could have just steam always running, and never notice the updates until they are already done :p
08:17<Wolf01>i only have 322 (200 installed) and about 120 from bundles to redeem
08:18<Wolf01>also let's play a game, help me to not buy fallout 4 before xmas, __ln__ could play on enemy side if he wants
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i actually have 11 games, 2 of which were free and i never even installed/started
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>i have no interest in fallout...
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>i actually got 3 games for free, but one of them i really played :p
08:19<Wolf01>neither do one of my personalities, but the other 2 want it, so i need support
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>2 vs. 1 is unfair.
08:20<Wolf01>eh, i might need to develop another one personality, but 3 is the perfect number
08:21<@Alberth>1, 2, 3 who needs any other number :)
08:21<Wolf01>one of them is "buy it yesterday!", one "wait at least until xmas" and the last one "no, don't buy it, you'll en up playing it for a ween non stop"
08:21<Wolf01>*end up
08:22<Wolf01>*week
08:22<Wolf01>they are again taking control of my hands at the same time
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>just one week?
08:22<Wolf01>24/7
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>just one week?
08:22<@Alberth>:)
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 24*7
08:22<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 168
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>i have a really healthy 1300 hours on Europa Universalis IV
08:23<Wolf01>no, i still play skyrim, fallut 3/new vegas, i have about 400 hours build up for each of them
08:23<@Alberth>food + coffee at least an hour / day
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>and i never actually played through a full game
08:24<Wolf01>eh, i'll try to finish at least the main story line for every game
08:26<Wolf01>i played starcraft LotV for the last 4 days and finished the campaign in 2 days
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, there technically isn't a story in Europa Universalis IV. nor is there really a victory condition. but the game goes from 1444 to 1821 or something
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>latest i got so far was 1720-ish
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>then it kinda got out of hand as i was winning wars faster than i could integrate territory...
08:29<Zuu>Wolf01: Sorry to confuse you
08:31<Wolf01>np, just pointed out the evidence, one of my personalities is grammar nazi capt. obvious
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to put something intentionally misspelled here, but my brain just refuses...
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>take this instead ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45iTjeL-X9I
08:38<Wolf01>ahah
08:38<frosch123>did you watch that for 6 hours?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>not really...
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>at least, not in one piece
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>you can watch the individual episodes as well ;)
08:40<Wolf01>i think i've seen 2 or 3 episodes, but that 6 hours straight is really too much :P
08:41<Wolf01>also, anime time, i need to see the last 7 episodes
08:42<Wolf01>uhm, no only 5
08:45<argoneus>does anyone here want to help me with a group project at uni
08:45<argoneus>;_;
08:46<Zuu>Wolf01: I was unsure about the spelling so I only googled it to see that it was not misspelled, but forgot to check I got the right word. :-)
08:46<Wolf01>i googled it too XD
08:46<@Alberth>you're looking for a group project?
08:46<argoneus>Alberth: no I already have one
08:46<argoneus>but my teammates are giving me a headache
08:47<@Alberth>and you think we are any better :p
08:47<Wolf01>on first sight i was "oh a new english word i didn't know"
08:47<argoneus>Alberth: im pretty sure
08:47<argoneus>one of them got a git merge conflict
08:47<argoneus>and he decided to discard all my code
08:47<@Alberth>\o/
08:47<argoneus>and rebased the repo
08:47<argoneus>and just now
08:47<argoneus>another guy pushed this code
08:47<argoneus>self.max_thread_count = multiprocessing.cpu_count()
08:48<argoneus>help
08:48<@Alberth>you're not making much sense to me, sorry
08:48<argoneus>they think you can only have as many threads as you have cpus
08:49<argoneus>or cpu cores, or logical cpus, w/e
08:49<argoneus>;_;
08:49<@Alberth>if it's a cpu bound problem, it makes sense
08:49<frosch123>i need a mirror for the graphviz docs
08:49<frosch123>somehow the server is down every second day
08:49<frosch123>hmm, oh, let's use the manpages
08:50<@Alberth>:)
08:51<@Alberth>my package manager doesn't have graphviz-docs, maybe you have such a package?
08:51-!-and [~oftc-webi@157-157-201-195.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #openttd
08:51<frosch123>"man dot" works for me
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08:52<andythenorth>argoneus: who’s project lead? :P
08:52<andythenorth>and then you have politics also :P
08:53<argoneus>frosch123: you can use the magic of internet
08:53<argoneus>http://web.archive.org/web/20150905053600/http://www.graphviz.org/Documentation.php
08:53<argoneus>andythenorth: we are 6, the project lead is another dude, not me
08:53<argoneus>hes actually decent but hes a huge idea guy
08:53<andythenorth>are you using feature branches?
08:53<argoneus>we agreed to use them
08:53<argoneus>but no one bothers
08:54<andythenorth>discarding code for a merge conflict is daft
08:54<andythenorth>otoh, you all have to learn this the hard way
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>make a merge war?
08:54<argoneus>there was no war
08:54<argoneus>he just rebased the repo
08:54<andythenorth>it has taken me 20 years to be approximately competent
08:54<argoneus>it's like my code never existed
08:54<argoneus>it was really awkward
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>so? you just push again :p
08:54<argoneus>copypasting it from the commit
08:55<argoneus>I pulled first
08:55<andythenorth>so you had commits?
08:55<argoneus>on the website yes
08:55<andythenorth>so go back to that rev
08:55<argoneus>but in the repo itself the commit seemed to be gone
08:55<argoneus>not sure how that works
08:55<argoneus>gitlab showed them properly
08:55<argoneus>but there was no commit deleting my code
08:55<argoneus>it just disappeared into the abyss somehow
08:55<andythenorth>only if he’s rewritten history afaik
08:55<andythenorth>which is daft, dangerous, hostile and stupid
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>it just means it's somewhere, but not a parent of the current commit
08:56<andythenorth>and rarely works
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's like an unnamed branch
08:56<argoneus>I just copypasted the files from the web commit
08:56<andythenorth>?
08:56<argoneus>im not a git wizard myself, would probably break things
08:56<argoneus>at least I know not to rewrite history
08:56<andythenorth>how can you see web commits, but not local?
08:56<argoneus>i have no idea
08:56<argoneus>gitlab showed them linearly
08:57<argoneus>but in my repo I couldn't find my commit
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>use the hash, luke.
08:57<argoneus>it wasn't that much of a problem
08:57<argoneus>I commit every like 20 lines
08:57<argoneus>but it was annoying
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>so, why are you talking to us, instead of to him?
08:57<@Alberth>git is quite dangerous
08:58<andythenorth>nah
08:58<argoneus>sorry then
08:58<andythenorth>some people using git are quite dangerous
08:58<andythenorth>:)
08:58<@Alberth>git is fine, just don't go near it :p
09:00<@Alberth>but yeah, argoneus, as Eddi said, you can talk to us, but it doesn't actually solve much
09:00<@Alberth>except telling other about your woes may make you feel better :)
09:02<andythenorth>I could send him peopleware
09:02<andythenorth>http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Tom-DeMarco/dp/0321934113/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447509736&sr=8-1&keywords=peopleware
09:02<andythenorth>most software project problems are people problems
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>most people problems are not solved by throwing more software at it
09:03<frosch123>andythenorth: what next?
09:03<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/firs/diffs/20_graph.diff <- commit?
09:03<frosch123>does it work for you?
09:04<frosch123>i just fixed some links and hoover tooltips
09:04<frosch123>don't know more bugs :)
09:06<andythenorth>frosch123: just push it, I’ll pull :)
09:06<frosch123>let's break devzone :)
09:06<andythenorth>yair!
09:06<andythenorth>why not!
09:09<frosch123>let's see :)
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09:13<frosch123>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html <- he, seems to work out of the box :)
09:14<Wolf01>nice
09:16<andythenorth>he
09:16<andythenorth>I’ll tweak colours and find a way to add ‘click for larger’ or such
09:16<andythenorth>biab
09:17<Eearslya>Understanding the OTTD codebase has been..quite a challenge so far; especially with no experience with vectors..
09:19<@Alberth>just a glorified array :)
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09:21<Eearslya>Yeah, a lot of C++ things are tripping me up here and there; I've had plenty of experience with plain C, but C++ has so many new features..
09:21<Wolf01>i instead don't understand sprite batches and graphics devices very well
09:21<@Alberth>wait until you see a proper c++11 program :p
09:22<Eearslya>Struct inheritance and initialization had me googling for an hour at least
09:23<@Alberth>it may be faster to read a c++ book :)
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, struct and class is really the same thing
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>the only difference is public/private if neither is specified
09:24<Wolf01>struct need to be fully initialized via constructor or default values, iirc
09:25<Eearslya>See, I am tempted to read a C++ tutorial or something of the like, but..I'm mainly worried it's going to be 75% things I already know XD
09:25<argoneus>Eearslya: learn java or C# or another language that doesn't butcher OO
09:25<Eearslya>Unless you know of a book for C++ that's specifically targeted to those already proficient in C..
09:25<argoneus>OOP*
09:25<argoneus>it will help you understand things with an easier syntax
09:25<Eearslya>I'm decent with Java, I did liken the inheritence to Java's 'extend' pretty quickly
09:26<argoneus>C++ has some magic stuff like multiple inheritance
09:26<argoneus>which may or may not be useful
09:26<argoneus>depends who you ask
09:26<argoneus>also templates are the best and worst feature of C++
09:26<Eearslya>Unlike Java, which has one inheritance and multiple..implements. Whatever you'd call those.
09:28<argoneus>I can't remember the last time I needed more than one inheritance
09:29<Eearslya>Are 'virtual' functions essentially the same as 'abstract'?
09:29<argoneus>not really
09:29<@Alberth>no, "virtual" is what java does by default
09:29<argoneus>virtual means you may override the function iirc
09:30<argoneus>abstract means you have to override it
09:30<@Alberth>ie you can re-implement the method in a derived class
09:30<argoneus>which reminds me how horrible C++ is
09:30<argoneus>you want an abstract class?
09:30<@Alberth>abstract is class X { void f() = 0 ; }; <-- the "=0" means the function exists, but not in this class
09:30<argoneus>^
09:31<argoneus>Alberth: add a virtual there
09:31<argoneus>virtual void f() = 0
09:31<argoneus>else... not sure what happens actually
09:31<@Alberth>which like java also means you cannot instantiate X
09:31<argoneus>I think that won't even compile
09:32<@Alberth>hmm, good point
09:32<@Alberth>I think it would compile just be very non-usable :p
09:32<Eearslya>Oh boy. Maybe I really should try and find some reading material..
09:32<argoneus>you should learn a good language
09:32<argoneus>that isn't plagued by 30 year old philosophies and deprecated standard libraries
09:32<Eearslya>C and Java don't count?
09:32<argoneus>C won't help you understand object oriented things
09:32<@Alberth>argoneus: please, you made that point a few times now, stop it now
09:32<argoneus>which you seem to struggle with
09:33<Eearslya>Well, no, I'm fine with OOP; I was just confused with C++'s syntax of inheritance
09:33<@Alberth>argoneus: read c++11 or c++14
09:33<argoneus>Alberth: I just don't get the idea of schools and stuff forcing C++ onto students
09:33<argoneus>when it's a huge mess
09:34<argoneus>e.g. in school we were taught about pointers in C++
09:34<argoneus>thing is, once you go into C++11, suddenly raw pointers are evil
09:34<argoneus>unless they are non-owning
09:34<argoneus>it's just
09:34<argoneus>blah
09:34<@Alberth>most schools have no clue about languages
09:34<@Alberth>but that doesn't mean the language itself is bad
09:34<argoneus>better learn a modern language imo
09:34<argoneus>the language isn't bad
09:34<argoneus>but it lets you do a LOT of bad things
09:34<argoneus>without warning you
09:34<@Alberth>it just means schools need to fix their knowledge
09:35<@Alberth>like git, and anything else powerful
09:35<argoneus>thing is
09:35<argoneus>with C++ there's like 5 different ways to do everything
09:35<argoneus>and 4 of them are frowned upon
09:35<Eearslya>I don't think C++ is going anywhere for a long time
09:35<argoneus>C++ is a good language that can do most everything you want
09:35<argoneus>that's also the problem with it :D
09:36<@Alberth>argoneus: wrong, the philosophy is not to force people into a choice, and different options are good for different use cases
09:36<Wolf01>i never understood pointers vs dots
09:36<argoneus>dots?
09:36<argoneus>you mean a->val vs a.val?
09:36<Wolf01>yes
09:36<argoneus>well
09:36<argoneus>one of them is *val and the other is val
09:36<argoneus>er
09:36<Wolf01>the compiler is smart enough to know when you need a reference or a value, why do you let it to the developer?
09:36<argoneus>*a and the other is a
09:36<argoneus>sorry
09:37<@Alberth>Wolf01: I agree, it seems a weird thing not to handle automatically
09:37<argoneus>from what I've seen on ##c++
09:37<@Alberth>although with operator overloading, it may get messy
09:37<Wolf01>ok, other languages have it too, but is used at function argument level
09:37<argoneus>the latest philosophy seems to do "try to avoid pointers, the stack is large enough"
09:37<@Alberth>eg iterators
09:38<argoneus>ugh
09:38<argoneus>iterators
09:38<Eearslya>How on earth are you expected to avoid pointers entirely?
09:39<argoneus>for (std::vector<MyClass>::const_iterator it = myvec.begin(); it != myvec.end(); it++) { }
09:39<argoneus>THANKS BJARNE
09:39<@Alberth>for (auto v : myvec)
09:39<argoneus>yeah
09:39<argoneus>luckily
09:39<@Alberth>^ that's c++11
09:39<argoneus>that's c++11 though
09:40<@Alberth>so please don't throw in obsolete constructs as argument against the language
09:40<argoneus>iirc there've been arguments against "auto" as wel
09:40<argoneus>l
09:40<argoneus>when it first came out
09:41<argoneus>that it's hard to tell what it really is
09:41<argoneus>there's also the auto& and auto&& magic and that kind of stuff
09:41<@Alberth>nothing that stops you from not using it
09:43<argoneus>as I said
09:43<argoneus>the language is not bad
09:43<argoneus>but there's way too many options for a new programmer imo
09:43<argoneus>I see hacky workarounds at uni all the time
09:43<argoneus>things that just should not work but they do
09:44<argoneus>because they forced c++ to make it work
09:44<@Alberth>yep, you don't want to use it as first language
09:44<argoneus>I never meant to discourage Eearslya from learning C++
09:44<Eearslya>My first language was..Perl.
09:44<argoneus>I just wanted him to get a good base in a "modern" language
09:44<argoneus>OUCH
09:45<argoneus>Eearslya: remember how I said that C++ lets you do nasty things?
09:45<argoneus>well, in perl you can do nasty things, with even nastier syntax! :D
09:45<@Alberth>like he doesn't know :p
09:45<Eearslya>I have done C++ before, but..Usually when I've done C++ it's been extremely basic, I've never gotten into vectors, inheritances, or anything like that
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>in perl, you can't do non-nasty things :p
09:46<Eearslya>It also doesn't help, trying to understand OTTD that I'm swimming around in a codebase and I don't know where anything is XD
09:46<@Alberth>ag or grep is your friend :)
09:46<argoneus>I just think every programmer should start with C
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'd argue that noone in here actually knows where EVERYTHING is
09:46<argoneus>and then proceed with something like C# or Java or whatever
09:47<argoneus>before getting into C++
09:47<argoneus>to get a solid base
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think no programmer should start with C
09:47<andythenorth>frosch123: eh how about doing something on Busy Bee next? o_O
09:47<andythenorth>it is a playground for GS ideas
09:47<argoneus>C teaches you to realize "oh I can't just flail memory around"
09:47<@Alberth>Eddi: ha, I don't even know what everything contains exactly :p
09:48<frosch123>andythenorth: what to visualise in busybee using graphviz? :p
09:48<argoneus>because then you open java code
09:48<argoneus>and see new() everywhere on everything
09:48<@Alberth>argoneus: euhm, something about pointers being complicated.....?
09:48<andythenorth>frosch123: goals :P
09:48<Eearslya>C is..segfault city, in my experience.
09:48<frosch123>hmm, i don't think i played a single game with busybee
09:48<argoneus>shouldn't every good programmer know how pointers work?
09:48<frosch123>so, i have no idea about it :p
09:48<andythenorth>busybee has a bug currently :P
09:48<argoneus>like every high level language uses pointers transparently
09:48<andythenorth>which gets annoying fast
09:49<@Alberth>it's more a lack in features :p
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no programmer, good or otherwise, needs to know what pointers are
09:49<argoneus>in java you pass by reference, shouldn't a java programmer know what a reference is?
09:49<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7521
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no.
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: especially not a beginner coder
09:49<@Alberth>well, in java, he should, as primitive types and non-primitive types are different
09:50<andythenorth>hmm, I need graphviz locally now
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>that is one of the weirdest things in java, yes.
09:50<argoneus>what do you classify as a beginner coder?
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>but definitely pretty low on the C-scale of weird language constructs
09:50<argoneus>not understanding loops for example?
09:51<frosch123>andythenorth: i remember my suggestion back then: plan goals ahead and only announce them if they have not been completed after 6 monhts
09:51<argoneus>I've been programming for like 4 years and I still feel like a beginner
09:51<andythenorth>that has quite some latency :)
09:51<andythenorth>it means min. 6 month wait for a new goal after winning one, no?
09:52<andythenorth>ach bollocks
09:52<andythenorth>I didn’t upgrade macports when I last upgraded OS X
09:52<andythenorth>meh
09:52<frosch123>you can keep a stockpile ahead
09:52<andythenorth>now my afternoon will be spent getting graphviz :D
09:53<frosch123>download the source and build yourself? :p
09:53<andythenorth>I should fix macports anyway
09:54<andythenorth>I hate that I have to get macports from sourceforge, and then use sudo with it
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: a beginner, in this context, would be someone who does not know the effects that a change will have ahead of time, a trial-and-error type approach.
09:54<andythenorth>what could be more evil than giving a sudo password to a binary from sourceforge?
09:54<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't fixing a segfault teach you a lot though?
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: and C is one of the worst places you would do trial-and-error programming
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no, because "Segfault" is not telling you what's wrong.
09:55<argoneus>fair point
09:55<argoneus>C errors are........not very good
09:55<frosch123>http://www.graphviz.org/Download_macos.php <- andythenorth: are those useful?
09:56<@Alberth>nah, assembly language without knowing what you're doing is worse :p
09:56<andythenorth>frosch123: nah, they’re old :)
09:59*andythenorth watches macports
09:59<Eearslya>I've been wanting to try and contribute to OTTD which is why I'm trying to familiarize with the codebase..I think I found a good 'things in C++ not in C' page to read, too
10:01<Zuu>I think it shouldn't be so hard to find a C++ book for C programmers. Both languages are fairly common still today and have a long history. And sure there should be web pages on the subject too as you found out.
10:01<Eearslya>Currently reading this: http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/cppcen.html
10:02<argoneus>this reminds me
10:02<argoneus>does ottd even use C++11?
10:03<Zuu>OpenTTD does compile in Visual Studio 2008, so no features not in that compiler are used.
10:03*andythenorth has wondered for a long time about function overloading
10:03<andythenorth>and why that would be sane
10:03<frosch123>we fixed the stuff that failed in c++11
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>function overloading makes sense in polymorphic contexts, or templates.
10:05<Zuu>Or for typed variable parameter count.
10:05<frosch123>andythenorth: think of it as a ways to imitate duck typing :p
10:05<andythenorth>ok
10:05<andythenorth>that works
10:06<frosch123>just that it only works for known types of ducks :p
10:07<andythenorth>hmm
10:07<andythenorth>subversion port takes a while to arrive :P
10:09<Zuu>And svn is picky about using -R instead of -r for recursive. :-)
10:11<andythenorth>meh ports also locks, can only run one install at once
10:11-!-rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
10:30<andythenorth>ach, can’t get openttd to find lzma
10:30<andythenorth>or I don’t have a valid lzma port
10:32<andythenorth>it also can’t find zlib or libiculx
10:32<andythenorth>which I have just installed :P
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10:41<drac_boy>hi
10:43<andythenorth>ha ha I’ve broken everything
10:43*drac_boy hands andy a lot of gremlins? :P
10:44<andythenorth>can’t build newgrfs, openttd, nor any work stuff
10:44<andythenorth>python and everything else is now broken
10:45<drac_boy>I see
10:45<drac_boy>any good news otherwise?
10:48<@Alberth>it's saturday?
10:48<drac_boy>heh I dunno if thats good news to andy :)
10:49<andythenorth>hmm openttd compiles again now
10:49<andythenorth>I gave up trying to install ‘only needed ports’ and just restored the old ones
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10:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r27444 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 16:57:15 +0100 )
10:57<@DorpsGek>-Add: When viewing online content of a particular type, hide content of other types unless they have been (auto)selected for download.
11:01<andythenorth>:)
11:08<drac_boy>anyway I think I'm going off for a bit for no
11:08<drac_boy>now*
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11:12<Eddi|zuHause>... silicoid farmers, i think i play this game wrong :p
11:16<Eearslya>Can I get voiced in #openttd.dev?
11:18<frosch123>Eearslya: but you can also just talk here
11:18<frosch123>.dev is only needed when eddi is spamming this channel
11:19<frosch123>there is noone in .dev who isn't here as well
11:23<Eearslya>True. Well, I was looking at trying to fix my first bug (6389) and I'm slightly confused; there's a buffer for the name, 32 characters wide, but the name in the bug report gets cut off at 29; So, minus one for the null terminator, are there 2 bytes of control characters or something of the like?
11:34<andythenorth>grr
11:34<V453000>Yo
11:34<andythenorth>most things now have the ports they need, except buildout.python will no longer build, and that’s the only sane way to get python on a mac :(
11:34<andythenorth>also newgrf makefiles are sulking
11:36<frosch123>Eearslya: no idea, maybe some utf8 magic?
11:36<frosch123>i.e. do some letter take more than a byte?
11:36<Eearslya>Is there any reason we can't just bump that to, say, 48? Wouldn't break any compatibility?
11:36<frosch123>anyway, mind that the server uses the same structure
11:37<Eearslya>Would that*
11:37<frosch123>so, changing it in the client won't make it work :p
11:37<andythenorth>http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=8RVZ1USS
11:37<andythenorth>and more of those
11:38<andythenorth>ach no mercurial installed
11:38<andythenorth>that might solve that
11:38<Eearslya>..Is the server actually built seperately? I'm looking at network/core/tcp_content.h..Is that not shared?
11:40<frosch123>ottd uses the same packet type for both udp and tcp packages
11:40<frosch123>udp packages are severely limited in size
11:40<frosch123>unfortunaltely ottd caries that over to tcp
11:41<frosch123>i started a patch to separate that, but didn't finish it :p
11:41<frosch123>Eearslya: the server is at svn://svn.openttd.org/extra/masterserver_updater
11:41<Eearslya>So this is more of a 'feature-not-bug' issue?
11:41<frosch123>the stuff in the "core" directory is shared via svn:external
11:42<frosch123>Eearslya: it's a limitation of the current implementation :)
11:43<frosch123>you can try to explore where the other 3 character are though
11:43<Eearslya>Welp, guess I should find another bug then!
11:43<frosch123>i don't know where the other 3 bytes are used
11:43<Eearslya>Well, assuming it's null-terminated (which it might not be, since it's explicity 32 bytes), there's 2 I have to look for
11:44<Eearslya>I should switch to my PC, bug-searching is horrible without an IDE to jump to declarations and such.
11:44<frosch123>but if the server already truncates it, you will have a hard time to debug that :p
11:45<Eearslya>Here's hoping it doesn't. XD
11:45<Zuu>You could still try to find out why the sever truncates it?
11:45<Zuu>(if it dose)
11:46<Zuu>does*
11:47<Eearslya>Well, first thing I'm gonna try is printing out the string byte-by-byte on client side, see if anything is off
11:48<Eearslya>If the client-side string is -actually- truncated at 29 bytes, well..Then I'll have to dig into the server code.
11:48<Zuu>The unique_id of that content is 3841 btw
11:49<Zuu>So all you need is a conditional breakpoint in network_content.cpp on line 65-ish to figure out what is received from the server. :-)
11:50<Zuu>But maybe I shouldn't spoil your debugging because I started on the same bug before reading that you did as well. :-)
11:50<Eearslya>Can MSVC do breakpoints? I've never really used it.. XD
11:50<Zuu>MSVC can do that. I use 2008 edition for OpenTTD. 2015 got even more features and a black theme.
11:51<Eearslya>Love dark themes.
11:51<Zuu>You just click in the left margin in the code editor to create a breakpoint. Then right click to set a condition.
11:52<Zuu>Mind that on some IDEs breakpoints with condition are sloooow, so altering the code to have a compiled if-statement with some dummy code to break at may greatly improve the performance. Not sure how good/bad visual studio is on this matter. Probably not as bad as others. :-)
11:52<Eearslya>Welp, we're about to find out!
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11:55<Eearslya>..Well, that was a pretty easy open-and-shut case.
11:55<Eearslya>They've got some strange UTF-8 apostrophe in the name
11:55<Eearslya>That would account for 2 more bytes than it should
11:58<Zuu>The bananas web interface have maxlength="32" on the name <input>. While I haven't checked the django backend validator, it likely count that UTF-8 character as a single character.
11:59<Eearslya>Which, of course, explains the discrepancy
12:00<Eearslya>Welp, still need to find another bug, then!
12:00<Zuu>Eearslya: If you like to continue your bug hunt experience, please post your findings to the issue on flyspray.
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12:02<Eearslya>Odd, Flyspray doesn't like my login. Is there a delay between registering and the usernames synchronizing across the services?
12:03<frosch123>no, but you need the confirmation mail
12:03<Eearslya>I did that
12:03<frosch123>also, where did you register? :p
12:03<frosch123>for example forums are separate
12:03<Eearslya>account.openttd.org, about 5 minutes ago
12:03<frosch123>that one should be fine
12:04<Eearslya>Flyspray disagrees
12:04<Zuu>Eearslya: Can you log in to other services? Eg. banans, wiki etc?
12:04<andythenorth>ha ha, graphviz works now
12:04<Zuu>bananas*
12:04<frosch123>andythenorth: i hope the rest did not stop due to that :)
12:05<Eearslya>Yep; bananas and wiki work fine
12:05<andythenorth>frosch123: well, I needed to update all of macports :P
12:06<frosch123>so you will only notice during the next week, that half of everything broke :)
12:06<Eearslya>I wonder if my password has characters Flyspray doesn't like; I just threw in a password from Keepass
12:08<Eearslya>..Nope, didn't fix it. Odd.
12:13<andythenorth>ho my FIRS repo is broken after installing mercurial
12:13<andythenorth>it reports changed files on some paths, but refuses to recognise those paths for commits
12:15<Eearslya>..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30.
12:18<andythenorth>well
12:18<andythenorth>rm -r * and then revert :P
12:18<andythenorth>repo fixed
12:19<Eearslya>There, finally made my comment XP
12:20<Zuu>Great
12:20*Zuu tries to understand #6378.
12:22<Eearslya>That is..a lot of math.
12:22<Zuu>The code blocks (as in Markdown code blocks) are not really math. But it is a lot of text and reasoning in that issue.
12:23<Eearslya>They did attach their own patch for the issue apparently
12:25<andythenorth>frosch123: so the cargoflow graph colours are hard-coded in the template? :)
12:25<frosch123>yes, i derive them from the life_type
12:25<frosch123>also supply cargo ids are specified at the top
12:26<andythenorth>I am going to try and use css-for-svg
12:26<andythenorth>I want to learn it, for other reasons
12:27*andythenorth wonders if raphael has a linkgraph layout algorithm :P http://raphaeljs.com
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12:28<Zuu>I made a web game where I used svg and angular directives to render the game screen. Didn't use of css for svg there though. As the whole svg was inline in the html template and parameterized by angular.
12:29<Zuu>https://github.com/Leffe108/Navennni/blob/master/www/templates/game.html
12:31<Eearslya>Man, there's really not a lot of bugs to take on practically..
12:31<andythenorth>no :)
12:31<andythenorth>the game is relatively stable, last time I looked in flyspray, it’s edge cases and hard-to-repro stuff, or platform-specific :)
12:32<Eearslya>Curse the stability!
12:32<Wolf01><Eearslya> ..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30. <- i had that problem on a site, i used a ~60 characters long password and i wasn't able to login anymore, a password reset fixed it :D
12:32<andythenorth>I rarely experience crashes or noticeable bugs in the game, despite changing newgrfs under it constantly
12:33<Eearslya>Wolf01: Yeah, I reset mine to one at 30 characters, works fine now
12:35<Wolf01>andythenorth, you can look at plantuml, it draws in svg too
12:35*andythenorth looks
12:36<Zuu>Eearslya: Have you seen the Todo list on the wiki? https://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list
12:39<andythenorth>you could go all out and try to patch a pony feature :P
12:40<Zuu>Do you have any easy pony requests. Eg that doesn't involve GS -> NewGRF? ;-)
12:40<Wolf01>like daylength or map rotation
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27445 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-14 18:45:11 +0100 )
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
12:55<andythenorth>ha ha
12:55<andythenorth>ok so graphviz offers limited control over css styling
12:55<andythenorth>but I shall defeat it
13:05<andythenorth>frosch123: does .dot ever get rendered to anything but svg? Should I preserve the inline styling?
13:06<frosch123>you can also render it to .png, if you want
13:06<frosch123>but then it won't have links
13:06<frosch123>though, actuall,y you can also generate an imagemap in addition to it
13:06<frosch123>anyway, i think svg is better than png :)
13:07<frosch123>don't bother with other formats
13:07<andythenorth>I can remove the fillcolor switch then
13:08<frosch123>can you select different css formats depending on life-type ?
13:08<andythenorth>yeah
13:08<andythenorth>I am doing it in a brute force way, but es
13:08<frosch123>interesting :)
13:08<andythenorth>yes *
13:09<frosch123>haha, are you adding a post-processing step after the svg generation? :p
13:09<andythenorth>not that brute force :o
13:10<andythenorth>although it would work
13:10<frosch123>ok, would likely be horrible :)
13:10<andythenorth>pushed, it’s WIP
13:12<frosch123>he, you are generating a css :p
13:13<@Alberth>andy generates everything, he'd generate the generator too if it was possible :)
13:14<frosch123>oh, you made the organic ones red?
13:14<frosch123>or only for testing?
13:15<andythenorth>only testing
13:15<andythenorth>Alberth: I am one step behind eddi, who does generate the templates iirc :P
13:15<andythenorth>ok I can control text and shape colours, I am happy :)
13:16<andythenorth>now I was going to pick colours from openttd palette for them :)
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13:16*andythenorth considers using map colour of industry, probably very very bad idea
13:16<frosch123>does ottd have such light colours?
13:17<frosch123>well, what information shall it represent?
13:17<andythenorth>is a good question
13:17<andythenorth>map colour will just be visual noise, no?
13:17<frosch123>likely :)
13:17<andythenorth>colour vomit, is what lego people call it
13:18<frosch123>and half of it will have terrible font/bgcolor contrast
13:18<andythenorth>font I can fix :)
13:18<andythenorth>but yeah
13:18<frosch123>currently it tells you to start with green or blue industries
13:18<frosch123>and to somehow get violet cargos
13:19<andythenorth>black for black holes? o_O
13:19<frosch123>if anyone understands what black hole are :p
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13:19<andythenorth>also agreed
13:19<frosch123>i like the terms "primary industry", "secondary industry", "other"
13:20<@Alberth>things that suck up entire openttd?
13:20<@Alberth>but likely the player only cares about cargo he does need to transport rather than cargo he doesn't get :)
13:25<andythenorth>bundles is slow to build FIRS :)
13:25*andythenorth taps fingers
13:27<andythenorth>frosch123: not happy yet, but thoughts? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
13:27<frosch123>why do you want to distinguish organic and extractive?
13:28<frosch123>if you want to distingiush farm/eng supplies, then fishing grounds will cause trouble :p
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'm always confused for a short bit about "english supplies"
13:31<andythenorth>I would prefer not to distinguish organic / extractive
13:31<andythenorth>I did it because the switch was there :)
13:31<andythenorth>no good reason
13:31<frosch123>ok :) i set the same colour to both
13:31<frosch123>i am not a big fan of the orange brown you used though
13:32<frosch123>but black might indeed work for blackholes, if you go for white fonts
13:33<frosch123>"black" and "white" are good choices for "other"
13:33<frosch123>because they are not exactly colours
13:34<Zuu>Hmm that full FIRS svg need a way to open in full browser size or so. Though you could do ctrl+'+' on desktop to zoom in far enough to be able to read it.
13:34<frosch123>Zuu: if you open it in a separate tab, it is actually so big, than you cannot find anything :p
13:34<Zuu>If made to cover my whole 24" screen it is almost readable. :-)
13:35<frosch123>but at least you can ctrl+f a svg
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: right-click->open
13:35<frosch123>or print it on a3 and put it into your bathroom
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>i have a Civ5 techtree that came with the game. it was totally outdated on first patch...
13:36<Zuu>In my browser, left clicking on individual items go to that industry. But it do have "show only this frame" in the right click menu to see only the graph in large size.
13:36<frosch123>i made a civ1 techtree in ascii art, and printed in on a 9-needle printer
13:36<andythenorth>I am going to find a way to show the svg zoomed, in lightbox or so
13:36<andythenorth>haven’t figured that out yet
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i never had the need for that. i could easily memorize the tree to get around the "copy protection"
13:37<andythenorth>frosch123: I tried black for black hole btw, but it obscures the arrow heads :)
13:38<frosch123>ok :)
13:48*andythenorth lost in colour generators https://coolors.co/app/00560d-1c448c-882034-ccd0dc-cfe8ef
13:50<andythenorth>front page of BBC News is super gloomy right now
13:50<andythenorth>5 out of 6 top stories are ‘dead’ or ‘died’ :P
13:51<frosch123>i like matching colours with their meaning
13:52<frosch123>but maybe that is a stage of synesthesia
13:52<andythenorth>ha
13:52<andythenorth>feel free to make suggestions
13:53<frosch123>primary -> green like a source of stuff; secondary -> orange like something busy; other -> blue like something that doesn't want to commit to anything
13:53<frosch123>but dark violet (not purple) may also work instead of blue
13:54<andythenorth>currently this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
13:55<@Alberth>bit dark
13:55<andythenorth>yeah, I have bright screen
13:57<@Alberth>font is too big?
13:59<@Alberth>basic arctic is fine in the economies page, imho, if you load it in a separate tab it grows by 50% or so
14:00<@Alberth>good night
14:00<andythenorth>bye
14:01<Zuu>Good night Alberth
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14:05*andythenorth battles colour contrast validator also
14:17<frosch123>passenger colour is missing
14:21<Eearslya>Zuu: Updated March 5th..Oh, boy this oughtta be good
14:21<andythenorth>frosch123: this is a bit ugly, but http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic-basic
14:21<andythenorth>the red is hard
14:22<andythenorth>anything orange either fails colour contrast validator or looks like poo brown
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14:26<frosch123>does #a04000 pass it?
14:28<andythenorth>yes
14:29<andythenorth>looks ok
14:29<andythenorth>bit brown
14:29<frosch123>i currently try primary 2a7234 (identic), secondary a04000, other 460058
14:29<andythenorth>ha purple
14:30*andythenorth has prejudice against purple :)
14:30<Zuu>Lol, in my irc client you got purple nickname color :-)
14:31<andythenorth>#482728 looks ok
14:31<andythenorth>as does #1F2041
14:32<andythenorth>or #42313F
14:33<Eearslya>You're all purple to me. I kinda miss my colored nicks addon..
14:35<frosch123>ok, inmdustries look fine now
14:35<frosch123>what for cargos?
14:35<frosch123>i get the lightgrey is fine
14:35<frosch123>what for supplies?
14:35<frosch123>yellowish?
14:35<frosch123>cyanish?
14:36<andythenorth>do supplies need distinguishing?
14:38<frosch123>andythenorth: also, remove the <tal:cargo condition="cargo.id not in doc_helper.get_cargoflow_banned_cargos()"> from the cargo colors :)
14:38<andythenorth>done :)
14:38<frosch123>supply cargos are special compared to others
14:38<frosch123>you may want to look for them
14:38<andythenorth>ok
14:38<andythenorth>hmm pax still isn’t taking the colours
14:38*andythenorth will investigate
14:39<frosch123>andythenorth: that's what i just said
14:39<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9gtfippl?/p9gtfippl <- that's the pax issue
14:40<andythenorth>nah I did that already :)
14:40<andythenorth>pax isn’t getting an ID perhaps
14:40*andythenorth is bathing 2x children right now :)
14:40<frosch123>oh, right...
14:41<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p2yg7h5zi?/p2yg7h5zi <- yes, it is missing the id, then it works
14:42<frosch123>but the yellow i picked is a bid peey
14:44<frosch123>aaeeee may work for supplies
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14:56*andythenorth pushes something
14:56<andythenorth>and waits for bundles
14:56<andythenorth>I am happy with the range of hues
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14:57<andythenorth>it’s a bit dark, but eh, contrast
14:57<andythenorth>https://coolors.co/app/2a7234-a04000-4a5f6d-d8dbe2-c5e5f4 fwiw
14:57<frosch123>doing industries with white texts and cargos with black is certainly something i wouldn't come up with, but it's a nice separation :)
14:58<frosch123>and you hated the black outlines :p
14:58<andythenorth>yeah
14:58<andythenorth>standard
14:58<andythenorth>now how to make them fit better?
14:59<frosch123>the size? or still on colours?
14:59<andythenorth>size
15:00<andythenorth>and how to access a bigger version
15:00*andythenorth wonders about edge formatting
15:01<frosch123>easy, remove all economies except basic arctic
15:02<andythenorth>ortho splines? o_O
15:02*andythenorth wonders
15:02<frosch123>i don't think it needs custom arrows :o
15:06<frosch123>i would love mousewheel zooming, but no idea how to do that :p
15:07<frosch123>http://www.jacklmoore.com/wheelzoom/ <- something like that?
15:08<frosch123>would it work with svg? noone knows :)
15:09<frosch123>http://mark-rolich.github.io/Magnifier.js/ <- or rahter something like that?
15:09<andythenorth>ortho splines look better, but likely harder to use
15:10<andythenorth>add “splines=ortho” to the digraph {} property declarations to see it...
15:10<andythenorth>I was considering colouring edges per cargo
15:10<andythenorth>but I can’t think of a scheme
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15:11<frosch123>i don't think you can automate that in a good way
15:12<andythenorth>technically I can control it, because I know the pairs, but I have NFI how to get a good result
15:14<frosch123>i am not sure i like the ortho splines
15:14<frosch123>they bunch up to a lot of parallel lines, which are hard to follow
15:14<frosch123>they also cross more
15:15<andythenorth>yeah
15:15<frosch123>petrol in basic arctic for example
15:15<andythenorth>they are superficially neater
15:15<andythenorth>but not better
15:16<frosch123>can we change the color of svg lines on hoover? :p
15:17*andythenorth tests
15:17<frosch123>may need postprocessing to add something to the polygons :p
15:17<andythenorth>ha ha
15:18<andythenorth>svg supports :hover
15:19<frosch123>well, can we group all lines belonging to the same cargo, and hover highlight them?
15:20<andythenorth>urgh
15:20<andythenorth>maybe with scripting :)
15:21<andythenorth>currently I’ve got one line at a time
15:21<frosch123>how important do you consider the stuff being printable, i.e. not interactive?
15:22<frosch123>hmm, but yeah, a plethora of different arrow colours would look ugly in any case
15:23<Eearslya>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6390 Whee, my first patch
15:24<andythenorth>frosch123: pull
15:24<andythenorth>printable, dunno
15:25<frosch123>Eearslya: i think you can turn those two if into a single one
15:25<frosch123>bool is_sell_widget = widget == WID_D_SELL;
15:26<frosch123>if (is_sell_widget != this->sell_hovered) { ... }
15:27<Eearslya>I really, really wanted to condense them; I just didn't think of it that way
15:32<Eearslya>There we go, updated
15:32<Eearslya>I'm just not quite that creative with my if statements, the thought never occurred to me
15:33<frosch123>think of it as 1. compute the target state, 2. check whether it differs from the current state
15:34<frosch123>anyway, bbl
15:34<Eearslya>Sound advice; I'll keep that in mind
15:36<andythenorth>frosch123: I’m quite happy with the colours now
15:36<andythenorth>still dunno how to control dimensions though
15:37<frosch123>ouch, don't you think the lines are a bit too strong
15:37<frosch123>they dwarf the font size
15:37<andythenorth>well
15:38<frosch123>but yes, colours are nice
15:38<frosch123>bbl
15:38<andythenorth>I haven’t pushed the one with smaller lines
15:38*andythenorth looks for svg canvas size
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16:27<frosch123>oh, the tooltip text on the arrows is not nice yet
16:29<andythenorth>ha
16:29<andythenorth>I just pushed a few things
16:29<frosch123>hmm, should the tooltip just be empty, or should it say the cargo, name, or both source/dest?
16:30<andythenorth>I find it low value :)
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16:33<frosch123>hmm, so you made the size so one cannot read any of them :p
16:33<andythenorth>yes well
16:33<andythenorth>that is a problem
16:35<andythenorth>I don’t know whether to use lightbox for larger, or redesign the page
16:35<andythenorth>or try and co-erce graphviz to fit full FIRS in a sensible width
16:35<andythenorth>I tried fighting graphviz for a bit
16:35<frosch123>don't try :)
16:35<frosch123>full firs is hopeless in that respect
16:35<frosch123>*regard ?
16:36<frosch123>i think lightbox could work
16:36<frosch123>something that display it full screen, but without scrollbars
16:37<andythenorth>lightbox tends to suck if you use the back button, as they are usually closed when going back
16:38<andythenorth>full FIRS just isn’t going to fit in my browser window :)
16:38<andythenorth>I have 1280x960 or so
16:38<frosch123>document.documentElement.requestFullscreen(); <- would that work?
16:38<andythenorth>ha dunno
16:38*andythenorth reads about it
16:39<andythenorth>experimental :)
16:39<andythenorth>https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/requestFullScreen
16:39<andythenorth>let’s experiment? o_O
16:39<frosch123>supported since ff10, chrome15, so ages?
16:41*andythenorth uses Safari, for reasons :P
16:41<andythenorth>I have been up too long to fight javascript today :)
16:46<frosch123>night then :)
16:47*andythenorth must tidy the kitchen and so forth :)
16:47<frosch123>damn, me too :/
16:48<andythenorth>eh, well, that was fun day of code
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17:01<drac_boy>hi
17:02<Eearslya>meow
17:02<drac_boy>how're you?
17:02<Eearslya>Bored and slightly sleepy
17:03<frosch123>i commented your fs patch
17:03<drac_boy>heh ok
17:03<frosch123>not yours, if you have one :p
17:07<Eearslya>Fixed that
17:11<drac_boy>frosch so anyway..didn't we talk about something about trains the last time? (just asking)
17:13<frosch123>Eearslya: i am greeping for where "sel" is reset
17:13<frosch123>does it also need something in OnDragDrop?
17:13<frosch123>drac_boy: trains? in this channel?
17:14<drac_boy>yeah
17:15<frosch123>i think i told you thatmodern trains in germany are powered by a mix of 40% coal, 20% nuclear, 20% wind and 20% solar power
17:16<frosch123>you can buy a slighty more expensive ticket to claim that your seat is powered by the 40% solar/wind though
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>there's at least 5% water missing in there
17:16<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, and biomass and whatnot
17:16<frosch123>i only guessed roughly
17:17<frosch123>it's also hard to estimate with the nuclear imports from france
17:17<frosch123>and the solar exports to italy
17:17<__ln__>how did all the passengers fit into the train when it's already filled by a nuclear reactor, coal plant and wind turbines
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>isn't french like 95% nuclear?
17:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but there is a big energy flow in europe that goes france -> germany -> austria -> italy
17:18<drac_boy>at least switzerland can hold some claim to low pollution ratio of their power sources tho
17:19<Eearslya>Hmm; sel isn't something I messed with, but I'll try and find it
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if you discount one out of 400 nuclear power stations blowing up every 25 years...
17:19<frosch123>__ln__: superior technology allows to put the power source into a different space continuum, which also lowers the weigt of the train
17:20<frosch123>Eearslya: that var specifies which vehicle is being dragged, so it helps finding the places where dragging is started and stopped
17:20<drac_boy>eddi..I'm thinking more of the hydro sources but hmm yeah I think they do have a bit of powerplant mix too tho
17:20<Eearslya>frosch123: Looks like DepotClick, l512
17:21<frosch123>that's where it starts
17:21<frosch123>i think you need to set sell_hovered to false in all places that stop dragging
17:21<frosch123>so whenever "sel" is reset
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if you ever followed the news, the swiss have a problem with microfractures in their nuclear power stations, including somebody drilling holes in them to fix fire extinguishers
17:22<drac_boy><also had been looking at a few model ideas and still deciding to go with a small mountain layout since I can buy some Bemo trains dutyfree
17:23<drac_boy>eddi..mm I see :-s
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>also, like in all the rest of the world, they put the nuclear plants in geologically active areas (aka. earthquake zones)... because that's where the rivers are which are used for cooling, and where all the people live that need the power
17:24<Eearslya>frosch123: You have any idea what OnTimeout is? It seems to raise the sell widget too for some reason
17:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/umwelt/klimaschutz.shtml <- actually, db has its own power plants and grid, so is less involved in the energy trade
17:25<frosch123>Eearslya: it's a timer event
17:25<frosch123>in ottd buttons do not react to mouse-up
17:25*drac_boy still would like to try find if theres a non-brass source for africa or french trains too (and being in canada so hmm yeah, tricky)
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, i meant to bring that fact up
17:25<frosch123>they trigger on mouse-down, and a timer raises the button shortly after
17:26<drac_boy>trains=modeltrains*
17:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: did you play outpost2?
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, only outpost1
17:26<frosch123>there are two factions in that game, the smart ones and the stupid ones
17:27<frosch123>the stupid ones always settle near to a vulcan, so in about every mission you have to evacuate from there and settle somewhere safe
17:27<frosch123>i got outpost1&2 in a bundle, outpost1 is certainly the biggest scam experience i ever had
17:28<frosch123>("scam" is likely not the right term, but i cannot remember the right one just now)
17:28<drac_boy>oh yeah I remember now..I was also talking about mixed trains (and a rather unusual uk photo I found too)
17:28<Eearslya>frosch123: Well, logically, the only times that sel would be reset and sell_hovered is true are handled; It handles if the vehicle is actually sold, and if it's cancelled. Not sure where else it'd need it..
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i was sort of addicted to outpost when it was new, but it certainly was extremely unfinished
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea where i got it from, though
17:29<drac_boy>actually I had been wondering a bit about NS trains too but as I'm not sure if their sort of operations could be tailored to a model layout tho (these 2- and 3-car Mat** trainsets are easy to get ahold of
17:30<drac_boy>frosch... maybe another word could be 'let down'?
17:31<frosch123>drac_boy: nah, more criminal
17:31<frosch123>like a completely unfinished game
17:31<frosch123>that does not do at all what i claims
17:32<frosch123>at the start of the game you are sent through an endless "web form" with hundreds of things to set and select
17:32<frosch123>which has no influence on anything whatsoever
17:32<frosch123>you can research many things in game, but all they do is "hey, you researched X"
17:34<drac_boy>frosch ah I see...yeah sounds like a big duff :-s
17:35<frosch123>i grew up in a small town, to buy video games one had to drive to a bigger city
17:36<frosch123>but everytime i bought a video game, it was crap
17:37<frosch123>on contrast, that stuff that you can trade in school was already prefiltered, so always better
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes ;)
17:38<frosch123>so i learned at young age that pirated stuff is of better quality than bought stuff :)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, Transport Tycoon was good, as we knew that from the demo. but it was crazy expensive
17:39<frosch123>Eearslya: i guess it does not matter. technically when dropping the vehicle on the button, OnDragDrop raises the button via HandleButtonClick, but sell_hovered remains true
17:39<frosch123>however, sell_hovered is only evaluated in OnMouseDrag, and the next time you start dragging a vehicle, the mouse is no longer over the sell button
17:40<frosch123>it would only matter if there was a hotkey to start dragging a vehicle :p
17:41<Xaroth|Work>ok, which of you guys has been playing too much space engineers? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFWaH66wpIw
17:42<frosch123>never heard of it
17:42<frosch123>it has ttd music
17:42<Xaroth|Work>space engineers is like minecraft
17:42<Xaroth|Work>only in space
17:42<Xaroth|Work>... with spiders o_O
17:42<frosch123>oh, is that the thing argoneus wanted to sell me yesterday?
17:43<Xaroth|Work>dunno
17:43<frosch123>he said something about minecraft in space with trains
17:44<Xaroth|Work>then he probably meant this
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think you mixed some stuff there :p
17:44<frosch123>though iirc he said it was a minecraft mod
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>selective memory :p
17:45<frosch123>Xaroth|Work: anyway, it looks more like train simulator
17:45<frosch123>i like management/building games
17:45<argoneus>frosch123: i meant minecarft with mods
17:45<argoneus>minecraft
17:49<drac_boy>oh yeah eddi you remember how I found that photo of a uk train that had the coaches in middle of consist instead of being shunted near either end?
17:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27446 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 23:54:52 +0100 )
17:55<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Lower the sell-vehicle button in the depot GUI while dragging a vehicle over it. (Eearslya)
17:55<frosch123>Eearslya: thanks, nice feature :)
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>now one can finally sell invisible vehicles :p
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, not really, but the chance is a bit higher :p
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17:58<argoneus>space engineers is not a very good game
17:58<argoneus>it's still an unoptimized alpha
17:59<Xaroth|Work>argoneus: same goes for minecraft tbh :P
18:00<frosch123>argoneus: time to preorder it? :p
18:01<frosch123>i pondered starting a bullshit thread on the forums
18:01<frosch123>with the question: how much would you pay to preorder ottd 2.0
18:02<frosch123>but usually the forum people don't consider that funny
18:02<frosch123>(maybe noone does)
18:02<Xaroth|Work>heh
18:02<Xaroth|Work>the rage
18:02<Wolf01>i would pay 9.99€
18:03<Wolf01>but only with season pass included, i don't want to pay again every time andy releases a dlc
18:03<Wolf01>;)
18:04<frosch123>oi, firs season pass
18:04<frosch123>too bad andy already left
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>andy always already left...
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>also, frosch123 always already left :p
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>and drac_boy :p
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's me :p
18:05<frosch123>i thought i join just after being summoned
18:06*drac_boy pokes eddi with a coal shovel
18:06<drac_boy>heh?
18:07<argoneus>Xaroth|Work: mc is playable
18:07<argoneus>without crashes every 5 mins
18:09<drac_boy>and which of hows this for a strange looking locomotive in uk? :) https://presnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/xmas-holiday-2011-013.jpg
18:09<drac_boy>I almost expect that glass box above the yellow face to flash a bit like KITT's red light :)
18:10<Wolf01>aahah
18:10<frosch123>why do brittish engines always have such a steep front?
18:11<frosch123>also, what weird engine is that
18:11<drac_boy>wolf01 well..what can I say http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Technology/Pix/pictures/2008/11/28/kitt460.jpg :)
18:11<frosch123>it does not have the cabin in the front, but it does not seem to be a steam engine either
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18:12<drac_boy>frosch...there were actually a few uk diesels with the cab being placed flat at one end
18:12<drac_boy>not just only the class 09's
18:12<frosch123>in my mind only steam engines have the cabin in the back, because of the tender
18:13<drac_boy>frosch well I recall these particular then-common diesels would sometimes run nose-to-nose (aka cab forward) in pair .. other times its cab-to-cab
18:13<drac_boy>trying to find the proper name now so hang on :)
18:15<Wolf01>frosch123, what about the fairlie ones?
18:15<drac_boy>aha it was called 'Type 1' (with its small size compared to everything else no wonder it got numbered one)
18:16<drac_boy>seem to be listed for 1000hp in 1957+ (that explains them often doubleheading)
18:16<drac_boy>wolf01 fairlie? you mean that weird stuffed up thing that looks like someone crashed two locomotives into each others' rear? :)
18:16<Wolf01>yeah
18:17<frosch123>yeah, it's two engines
18:17<frosch123>like you can put two graphics cards into one computer, but still run only one display
18:17<drac_boy>I never really understood the reasoning behind its design but then again it does seem interesting running down the line nevertheless
18:17<frosch123>but at double frame rate or so
18:17<Wolf01>also there are these http://www.gamersdailynews.com/userfiles/image/2012/June/cab-forward.jpg
18:17<drac_boy>I'll rather order a standard compound 0-6-6-0 or so if I had needed more traction..but to our own :)
18:18<drac_boy>wolf01 that seem to error out?
18:18<Wolf01>mmmh
18:18<Wolf01>https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCKfjx5DaXwqLsLOsz8hXqFQsEl2TWmtGrVgfyKCALDcIIF5Qa_g
18:19<drac_boy>wolf01 ah well that was due to both being oil fired and re having a lot of tunnel on grade so simple solution to smoke problem was to flip the thing around and run long oil pipes as to put the cab ahead of the smokestack
18:20<drac_boy>but then sometimes they ran doublehead so the second cab still had to carry a breather kit to work safely through the tunnels :-s
18:21<Wolf01>and as i love finding weird steam locomotives, here is a little bonus: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wwwuppertal/16182656836
18:22<drac_boy>wolf01 not quite related but the EMD SD40T came to be only because the original units overheated easily in the long 10mph drag through tunnels .. so the major alteration was to make the engine suck air from just below the chassis (instead of right at the roof as usual) and that more or less cured the overheat shutdown issues
18:22<drac_boy>T could be short for 'Tunnel motors' as it sometimes was called on paper
18:22<drac_boy>not surprisingly the SD40T were only found in the colorado area (and only when UP did buy out SP did these locomotives then sometimes end up on different routes too)
18:23<frosch123>Wolf01: yay, an explosive-safe engine
18:24<Wolf01>it reminds me of the steamboy anime movie
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18:25<drac_boy>wolf01 btw if you want something a bit less than normal .. look up the 4-2-0 and 2-2-0's that existed during the 1800's era (basically same chassis&boiler as the then-common American 4-4-0's after all)
18:25<drac_boy>kinda weird to see what looks like a 4-4-0 locomotive actually instead riding on 2-2-0 axles :-s
18:26<drac_boy>and which of I need to afk for a bit...shouldn't be too long tho (unless buffer fluxes up)
18:26<Wolf01>you mean these? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Pioneer_CNW_4-2-0.jpg
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18:32<Wolf01>http://sbiii.com/bwrkapix/brdknm22.jpg i can't understand this one
18:32<Wolf01>0-2-0?
18:40<drac_boy>heh that 4-2-0 looks weird..almost like a donkey engine slapped into some weird boiler
18:43<frosch123>Wolf01: don't drive it without a wagon, i guess?
18:43<frosch123>but hey, all axles are powered :)
18:44<Wolf01>it looks like one of these http://www.fort-it.com/multimedia/prodotti/2/foto/big/motocoltivatore-explorer-fort.jpg
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>is that a segway crossed with a lawnmower? :p
18:47<Wolf01>we used a lot of these here, usually you stick a cart to it and go around
18:47<Wolf01>or you just use it to turn over your garden
18:55<drac_boy>btw heres how to make a 0-2-0 ... by attaching a tender to it :P http://whymsical.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=136
18:56<drac_boy>and ever more weird http://www.bates-r-us.org/birdwater/bwa1986/bwa486.jpg .. no idea if it'll steam with all that cold pipes!
18:57<Wolf01>mmmh weird
18:58<drac_boy>wolf01 I do know something you may like tho...what kind of locomotive has two separate boilers driving a common center rail? :P
18:58<Wolf01>i know that one
18:59<Wolf01>http://gold.mylargescale.com/BobBaxter/Monorail01.jpg ?
18:59<drac_boy>heh yep :)
18:59<drac_boy>only example of its own kind if I recall
19:00<Wolf01>http://www.quirkydays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Brennans-monorail-1_4x3-600x338.jpg ah!
19:00<Wolf01>i knew monorail opened the road for more weirdness
19:01<drac_boy>wolf01 well..there were weird attempts at gyro-powered vehicles both on road and rail
19:02<drac_boy>would you believe a 2+outrigger car that only had a small engine (like 10-40hp or something) turning a large gryo wheel which hence also drove the main tires too
19:02<drac_boy>for obvious reasons I think it never made to mass production :)
19:06<drac_boy>wolf01 not in the same 'strange' sense but how about this? http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr1t9cZSlr1qcaiw9o1_1280.jpg
19:06<drac_boy>normally you expect a highspeed express to be of the tender type but this was a tank instead .. at least the short distance they worked was still more than good enough for them tho
19:07<drac_boy>and heres one at speed http://loco.skyrocket.de/img/drg_61_001.jpg (yep..just two coaches in that one)
19:07<Wolf01>that is just a steam engine with a chassis, not so much different from a mallard one
19:08<drac_boy>weirdly enough china did have something a bit similar but I have no clue where it is tho :)
19:10<drac_boy>wolf01 and if you want streamlining that resembles a wedgie then this will do :) http://loco.skyrocket.de/img/jnr_c53_43_1.jpg
19:11<drac_boy>probably has to be two separate hatches for sure as I don't think the actual one can be slanted like the photo seem to suggest
19:11<drac_boy>funny enough I think one of the jnr electric locomotive also had a similar wedgie shape (and it soon wasn't too popular as it couldn't run bidirectional)
19:13<Wolf01>found it ;)
19:13<Wolf01>http://api.ning.com/files/8t-VIPFUK11-u9iNu86TJ9hhX3H3MuLe9RcNdJspnw-q1rDpFLBosH83TZwOJh-nAYbCk-PDMHiyEXod4FscPg__/536.jpg
19:15<drac_boy>ah almost forgot that one too...yeah that one was a bit interesting..at least it more or less worked ok for long distance trains
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19:16<drac_boy>hows this for something that almost look like it got designed by your 50's fashion american? https://doyouknowjapan.com/image/shinkansen/shinkansen27.jpg
19:17<drac_boy>the headlights do have a resemblence to the 50's cars anyway
19:18<Wolf01>yeah, it looks like one from fallout games
19:18<drac_boy>heres an example if you're wondering https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/66/6e/f1666e1b87a01c6761cbdac97d387d40.jpg
19:18<drac_boy>I do like the Bullet Series 0 trains tho mind you :) (and did you know that the nose was hammered out by hand all the way?)
19:19<Wolf01>:o
19:20<drac_boy>wolf01 as I recall it was due to because it was a small number of trainsets it wasn't cost-worthy doing the tool and die .. so they rather took a flat sheetmetal and keep hammering it in steps till it comes to almost a perfect shape then probably sand it a bit and paint it .. done
19:21<drac_boy>oh and another thing not everyone probably knew too..the nose actually did open up to an emergency swing-out coupler (and the swing was rope-rigged I think..or was it cable? I forgot either way)
19:23<drac_boy>I don't think the coupler was ever really used much at all due to the high reliability and everything...as I've never seen any photos of it (only the original movie clip of it being tested with a special group of people watching)
19:28<drac_boy>wolf01 anyway you want another one? :)
19:28<Wolf01>shot it
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19:29<drac_boy>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Andreev.jpg thats a 4-14-4 and nope not making that up .. probably splitted just about anything that resemble a curve!
19:30<Wolf01>i know it, it was too large to take curves
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>and can you dig something up that wasn't already dragged through this channel a dozen times in the last 10 years?
19:33<Wolf01>maybe the hyperloop ;)
19:33<drac_boy>wolf01 at least russia was not always crazy tho
19:35<drac_boy>their "children railway" (as english translation puts it apparently) still have some interesting small steam locomotives
19:35<drac_boy>almost a bit polish-like in the big headlights compared to the boiler size :)
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>those railways were usual diesel-driven around here...
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>i guess they reused factory engines
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes they had downscaled chassis from "real" engines
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how the russians called this, but around here, the original term was "pioneer railways", where "pioneer" was a youth organization, sort of comparable to boy scouts, but more all-encompassing
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>they changed it to "children railway" after socialism broke down...
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>to make it sound less indoctrinating
19:40<drac_boy>yeah. for at least one of the russia one I did read about...only the dispatching and some driver tasks were left to the adults but the youths otherwise could take part of anything else including stationmasters
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>well, basically it's a teaching operation
19:42<drac_boy>oh and I forgot where but there was one particular location in russia where three separate gauges crossed in the same place .. broad gauge (standard network), standard gauge (tram line), and narrow gauge (children railway)
19:42<drac_boy>normally you only see 2 gauges together
19:45<drac_boy>wolf01 have you see this yet? http://railfanphotographycolorado.com/odd%20(1).jpg
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't look very special to me
19:45<drac_boy>old steam locomotive tender + some jury-rigged axle with chain drive + finding a truck engine to throw onto middle of chassis .. then a lot of sheetmetal welding to make up the odd body
19:46<drac_boy>homemade diesel locomotive .. probably would had never been approved these years, but back then who cared
19:46<Wolf01>eheh
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, there's this thing https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Schienenbus01.jpg
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>which is basically a truck engine slapped on a chassis
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>and because the engine had only one gear and couldn't go backwards, they had to slap an equivalent on the other end
19:48<drac_boy>eddi..ah..the pigs .. I always liked them .. two engines at first seem ineffective but it actually made things easier being able to drive in both directions at whim :)
19:49<drac_boy>they did have some narrow gauge versions but at least one railroad soon stopped running them as they were afraid about its stability
19:49<drac_boy>(its still preserved tho which is the only reason I knew about that)
19:49<Wolf01>reminds me about that https://youtu.be/dIQFXDFCCxk?t=3m50s
19:50<drac_boy>there used to be a single-axle trailer built for them but of course the problem was you had to drag the trailer around to other side etc so I guess soon everyone didn't even like them
19:50<FLHerne>The County Donegal railway had an entire fleet of those weird bus-railcar things in gradually-improving variants
19:50<drac_boy>the outboards used to store bikes+cargos was an interesting post-production retrofit and it actually looks better that way for some reason to me :)
19:52<Wolf01>there's also the "centennial" featured in that video
19:53<FLHerne>Tiny one (http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/cwd/3325.jpg) up to almost-proper-DMU standard http://www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/111298.jpg
19:54<drac_boy>flherne if you want an articulated 2-piece try this http://www.pichirichirailway.org.au/images/historical/SLSA/SMC1/b45335.jpg
19:54<drac_boy>that was I think maybe technically a 0-4+4 .. no idea how you really classify these tbh
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>the DB operated busses that could run on rails: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SchiStraBus
19:55<FLHerne>British ones even weirder https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Taff_Vale_railmotor_(Rankin_Kennedy,_Modern_Engines,_Vol_V).jpg
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19:56<FLHerne>Not articulated, but the boiler's sideways :P
19:56<drac_boy>ehh that taff vale one does look a little too weird indeed
19:57<Wolf01>i think i'll go to bed too, maybe i'll read the logs ;)
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19:57<Wolf01>'night
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19:57<drac_boy>bye wolf01
19:57<drac_boy>meh :P
19:58<FLHerne>Also http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2011/post-189-0-30120600-1301475042_thumb.jpg and http://d240vprofozpi.cloudfront.net/locos/Railcar/gnr_motor2.png
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>the saxon railways had a similar thing, i think they later operated in switzerland: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Limousin2010RVT01.jpg
19:59<FLHerne>Of course, we actually have a working fully-integrated one, thanks to the Great Western Society :-)
19:59<FLHerne>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYKUnEZqsI0
20:01<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: That's odd, are the traction motors at the opposite end to the engine?
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>but i have not really an idea
20:03<FLHerne>Well, the far end bogie has a driveshaft and coupling rods
20:04<FLHerne>Near end looks like a plain bogie
20:05<FLHerne>Might help with weight distribution?
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>apparently this is the engine under the chassis http://www.derbysulzers.com/saxonybogieside.jpg
20:08<FLHerne>http://www.derbysulzers.com/prussia.html
20:08<FLHerne>"The three axle bogie carried the weight of the engine and generator whilst the smaller two axle bogie carried the weight of the two traction motors"
20:08<FLHerne>Looks like I was right, and that is a really odd arrangement
20:08<FLHerne>So the engine sits directly on the unpowered bogie, and then drives the other end
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>well, i guess that somewhat makes sense for diesel-electric
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20:28<FLHerne>Having the weight over the driving axles would seem useful though
20:28<FLHerne>You have an awful lot of big hills over there
20:28<drac_boy>well i imagine it depends on actual weight spread
20:29<drac_boy>like there was this emu for a mountainous route in germany .. and it only had 1 axle per truck powered (instead of usual 2) due to limiting mechanical factors .. but even with that it still was a solid one .. even hauling several loaded 2-axle coaches without assistance
20:31<drac_boy>mm and a bit related but Santa Fe usually prefer B-B diesels for their not-so-flat routes but they somehow still liked their small group of alco's which were A1A-A1A's .. even got to haul the Chief trains too
20:32<sim-al2>East half of the Santa Fe is pretty flat
20:32<sim-al2>Western part, not as much
20:34<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh well I don't know a lot about SF on the ground but I do know some about their locomotives nevertheless .. what can I say :)
20:34<drac_boy>of course there is always these "SFSP" locomotives that were painted a bit too fast before ICC rejected the merger propsal :)
20:35<sim-al2>I'm not really an expert there either, but they had one of the best routes across the country
20:35<drac_boy>at least the short bout of red+yellow color instead was an interesting photo take
20:35<drac_boy>http://atsf.railfan.net/sfkodcrm/kjpgs/atsf1564.jpg heres one
20:35<sim-al2>They avoided the mountain districts that the Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Milwaukee, etc had
20:36<drac_boy>sim-a12 .. about 'avoid' .. well I have two magazines that talked a lot about them but Western Pacific was interesting as it broke the monopoly that Southern Pacific would otherwise have had for example
20:37<drac_boy>that railroad was also the one that had that interesting wye that was half placed on trestles too I believe
20:37<sim-al2>I'm thinking of D&RGW for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRQufjbGAf0
20:38<drac_boy>yep here http://www.trainweb.org/chris/photos/WP21.jpg .. you almost can't see the third leg but its almost visible in the very upperleft (it goes into a deep cut yep)
20:39<sim-al2>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keddie_Wye
20:39<drac_boy>also WP had some interesting land where it would be green in early spring (due to the additional rain) but was always a semi-parched yellow all year long otherwise
20:39<drac_boy>thats what you get for the particular climate they were located in in middle of the mountains tho
20:41<drac_boy>ah sim-a12 I almost forgot one more thing about SP .. Don Pass .. was sometimes a bit weird .. you could have the train roll past lush green grass into a tunnel .. then when it comes out of the other end of tunnel theres nothing but snow everywhere!
20:42<drac_boy>bit of extreme climate buffer if you ask me :)
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, what's a "wye"?
20:42<sim-al2>Yeah, a big enough mountain will do that
20:43<sim-al2>THere, it's actually a 3 way junction between the main route and a connection to another railroad
20:43<drac_boy>eddi .. ah not sure if its an american term or not .. but its that one where you have a triangular shaped track (sometimes as a 3-way junction .. other time to turn around things without using a turntable)
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>so, why don't they call it a triangle?
20:44<sim-al2>This ain't Britain
20:44<drac_boy>you tell me, also 'wye' can refer to a switch that has both legs curved away from each other (rather than one straight and one curved routes) ... confusing term I guess
20:45<drac_boy>http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/280.gif thats what they call a wye turnout usa-wise
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think that comes from the letter Y
20:45<drac_boy>sim-a12 if we were in britian we would want a driver not an engineer :P (exactly same thing tho when you talk about it anyway)
20:46<drac_boy>or how about a lorry instead of a truck .. but heh anyway I wouldn't go too far into this thing about different english's .. I have to afk soon anyhow :-s
20:46<sim-al2>Just joking about the terminology :D
20:47<sim-al2>Why wye, that's a great question
20:47<drac_boy>sim-a12 if you're still around somewhere tomorrow we should talk more (here or pm I dunno) ok? :)
20:47<drac_boy>I need to go for now sorry :-/
20:47<sim-al2>ok bye
20:48*drac_boy hands sim-a12 a canadian-sized firebox shovel before running off :P
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20:49<sim-al2>Hmm, Candian-sized... gonna need a bigger house
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>you people have strange expressions... "canadian-sized"
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>:p
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 15 00:00:34 2015