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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-15

---Logopened Sun Nov 15 00:00:34 2015
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03:03<andythenorth>o/
03:11<andythenorth>quak
03:11<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
03:11<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 8 hours, 28 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <frosch123> but hey, all axles are powered :)
03:14*andythenorth lost in graphviz options :)
03:17<greeter>hmm this is weird. i thought i set this game to a normal amount of industries, but the map is just polluted with them
03:23<@Alberth>oh dear :(
03:23<@Alberth>yeah, "normal" is closer to "overwhelming" :)
03:24<greeter>ok, so i went back and set it to low, seems a little more sane
03:24<@Alberth>but it depends a lot on eg the number of industries
03:25<@Alberth>if you have many different industries, you need a higher density to ensure they all get created
03:26<greeter>ah i see
03:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: what option is the problem?
03:26<andythenorth>I am learning what they all are :)
03:26<andythenorth>test, make, view :)
03:26<@Alberth>similar considerations are for map size, small map needs more dense industries
03:28<greeter>this one is pretty large
03:29<@Alberth>you typically want less dense industries at a larger map indeed
03:30<@Alberth>hmm, graphviz site is down, no simple way to get a gallery of examples
03:30<greeter>i think i struck a good balance. low number of towns/industires on a 2048 by 2048 map
03:32<@Alberth>why do you use such a big map? I always find 512x512 is sufficient
03:33<Flygon>Heheheh
03:33<Flygon>Eddi has 6,666 posts
03:33<Flygon>HAIL EDDI|ZUHAUSE
03:33<Flygon>OUR EVIL OVERLORD
03:33*Flygon gives Eddi|zuHause an EVIL Watermelon as a gift of appreciation
03:33<greeter>it's roughly the size of the height map i created. though i have to admit, i may have made that too big
03:35<@Alberth>andythenorth: would a dot user guide be of any help? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/dotguide.pdf
03:35<andythenorth>let’s see :)
03:36<@Alberth>I thought the magic number was 666?
03:36<Flygon>Alberth: It is, but
03:36<Flygon>Any sequence if 6's large enough justifies the worship
03:37*andythenorth waits for bundles to build FIRS
03:38<@Alberth>you pick weird lords to worship :)
03:38<andythenorth>previous rev looks like this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
03:39<andythenorth>we can compare-contrast when bundles updates :P
03:42<Flygon>Alberth: And yet it's given me, just now, a stupid insane new station layout
03:42<Flygon>Not enough room for RoRo, but need the benefits
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03:43<@Alberth>picture!
03:44<andythenorth>slow bundles is slow :(
03:45<@Alberth>it looks way more readable than the versions you had yesterday
03:45<@Alberth>bundles is also building the grf :p
03:47<@Alberth>wicked, I get tooltips on the cargo connections :)
03:47<andythenorth>ach, my browser had cached it
03:48<andythenorth>I switched layout from top->bottom to left->right
03:48<andythenorth>looks more natural to my brain, and makes better use of space, given the aspect ratio of the industry nodes
03:48<@Alberth>it does make better use of the space indeed
03:49<@Alberth>perhaps also create right -> left version for our eastern friends?
03:49<andythenorth>ha
03:50<andythenorth>ideally all primary industries would have same node rank
03:50<andythenorth>so they are all vertically aligned
03:50<andythenorth>vertically / horizontally / s
03:51<@Alberth>full firs size can be increased?
03:51<andythenorth>it’s using the space weirdly isn’t it
03:51<andythenorth>graphviz can control canvas size, but I haven’t made that work yet
03:52<@Alberth>you already have colours for the primary industries, why do you want them aligned?
03:52<andythenorth>neater :)
03:52<@Alberth>graphviz just scales the picture to make it fit
03:52<andythenorth>better gestalt
03:53<@Alberth>the more you fine tune, you more it will break when you change things
03:54<andythenorth>yeah
03:54<@Alberth>imho the whole point of graphviz is that you don't do manual alyout
03:54<andythenorth>or when adding new economies
03:55<@Alberth>if you do manual layout, quality will indeed increase, significantly even, in general
03:55<@Alberth>but it's manual
03:55<andythenorth>nah
03:55<andythenorth>tmwftlb
03:55<andythenorth>distractions: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2014/03/design-principles-visual-perception-and-the-principles-of-gestalt/
03:56<andythenorth>I’m interested in this graphviz stuff because we have a work problem, showing the available paths through multiple connected pages
03:56<andythenorth>which are customer-editable and not predictable in advance, and highly variable
03:57<@Alberth>how big is that, in terms of nodes
03:57<andythenorth>controlling that manually won’t be a thing :)
03:57<andythenorth>usually 5-20, but pathologically, up to about 300
03:58<@Alberth>2d visualization techniques scale to about 30-40 nodes, unless you have huuuuuge paper sizes
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03:59<@Alberth>you may want to merge some things into a single node if bigger
03:59<@Alberth>ie make a sub-graph
03:59<andythenorth>I think it would have to rely on vertical layout and browser scroll
04:00<andythenorth>it shows routing through surveys that contain skip logic (next page shown depends on answer to a routing question in current page)
04:00<andythenorth>usually it’s simple. But it’s the non-simple cases that customers need visualised, to verify and debug them :P
04:00<@Alberth>oh right, that's quite simple usually
04:01<@Alberth>if it doesn't make sense on the browser screen it's too complicated :p
04:01<andythenorth>yup
04:02<andythenorth>graphviz looks like the most appropriate tool, it’s a simple directed graph
04:02<@Alberth>dot would be good for that, it assumes a tree of nodes
04:03<@Alberth>other common forms are circular layout of nodes
04:03<@Alberth>although I haven't really seen those yet
04:03<andythenorth>so graphviz is a wrapper, and there are multiple layout agorithms it can use, like dot and neato?
04:03<@Alberth>it's probably depending on the kind of applications
04:03*andythenorth is trying to understand the structure
04:04<@Alberth>graphviz is a umbrella of tools with a common language, the graphviz language
04:04<@Alberth>there are several layout tools like dot and neato that all speak that language
04:04<@Alberth>so you can generate a graph, and then use different algorithms for layout
04:05<@Alberth>dot is the most famous tool, so many people think dot is the only thing, and use "dot language" to refer to the language
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04:06<@Alberth>you can also have a look at yEd, it's a commercial tool written in Java
04:07*andythenorth looks
04:07<@Alberth>it tends to produce better pictures for complicated graphs
04:07<@Alberth>and it has extensions for 'folding' sub-graphs into a node
04:09<andythenorth>it’s rather shinier than graphviz
04:09<@Alberth>yep, commercial vs academic :p
04:09<@Alberth>also, graphviz is much older
04:13*andythenorth wonders how to test neato instead of dot
04:16<@Alberth>for which graph?
04:17<@Alberth>great link about gestallt btw :)
04:17<andythenorth>for the cargoflow, but more so I understand the difference
04:17<andythenorth>the graphviz site is down, so eh
04:19<@Rubidium>Alberth: I'm not sure whether you are right with respect to graphviz being the language under which dot was developed
04:20<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs1.svg first attempt
04:20<andythenorth>ha
04:20<andythenorth>needs overlap prevention :)
04:20<@Alberth>ah could be they started with dot, but currently everything is under graphviz
04:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/neatoguide.pdf
04:24<@Rubidium>dot user guide: 1991 (or earlier), neato's user guide: 1992
04:25<andythenorth>ah so I call neato, not dot
04:26<@Rubidium>the man page of dot/neato/<many other graphviz tools> mention: A more complete description of the language can be found at http://www.graphviz.org/content/dot-language.
04:27<@Alberth>unfortunately, graphviz.org is down
04:27<@Alberth>it doesn't improve significantly for me
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04:30<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs3.svg twopi version, which does radial layout
04:30<andythenorth>looks like neato favours clusters, dot favours trees http://rich-iannone.github.io/DiagrammeR/img/Graphviz_Engines.png
04:31<@Alberth>dot assumes trees even
04:31<andythenorth>if there was only one edge between each primary and secondary, neato would be prettier
04:31<andythenorth>but that’s not the case
04:32<@Alberth>for different graph shapes, you have dedicated tools to do layout
04:33<@Alberth>and depending on how well the actual graph matches the assumptions you get better or worse results :)
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04:38<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs_sfdp.svg sfdp somewhat works
04:39<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/libguide.pdf the programming guide, chapter 3 lists the algorithms
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04:46<andythenorth>dot it is then
04:59*andythenorth considers fetching the cargoicons from the spritesheet
05:00<@Alberth>and add images for the industries, and you get nice pictures like ECS has :)
05:08*andythenorth wants to constrain edge out-in points to same origin/destination
05:08*andythenorth in docs
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05:14<fjb>Moin.
05:16<andythenorth>seems to be samehead and sametail, but not sure how to use those
05:16<andythenorth>http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#a:samehead
05:22<andythenorth>ach
05:22<andythenorth>nvm :P
05:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ppvkg5kox
05:34<andythenorth>ah
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05:34<andythenorth>I wondered about that
05:34<andythenorth>it probably takes more detailed calculation than is currently provided
05:35<andythenorth>and it has to hard limit to 5
05:37<@Alberth>you would have to decide which arraows come from roughly the same side
05:39*lastmikoi wonders when andythenorth sleeps
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06:05<Wolf01>o/
06:08<@Alberth>moin
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06:15<TrueBrain>lastmikoi: the same time as cats sleep
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>cats literally sleep all the time :p
06:16<TrueBrain>except when they don't ;)
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>(except when they demand food)
06:17<Wolf01>eddi, just one question... do you sleep?
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>currently? no :p
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06:18<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, there was a ~9 hour period between writing in this channel. plenty of time to fit some sleep in...
06:19<Wolf01>from the logs i noticed you left for 15 seconds
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>so, people only sleep when they are not logged in?
06:22<Wolf01>usually, but i know most of us have bouncers
06:23<Wolf01>mmmh i need to find a way to fix the minecraft installation on my slate... every time i run it, it starts in demo mode :|
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06:23*andythenorth sleeps between 22.30 and 05.18 usually
06:23<andythenorth>or so
06:24<Wolf01>you always miss the most important conversations
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, they always happen like 23:00-2:00 ;)
06:25<@Alberth>really important conversations pick a better time :p
06:37<@peter1138>Bumholes
06:37<@peter1138>My tablet keeps rebooting :(
06:43<Wolf01>did you try to turn off then on again? oh wait... it is doing that by itself :|
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06:57<andythenorth>hmm
06:58<andythenorth>station rating affects pax moved to station from houses?
06:58<andythenorth>or is that just industries?
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:58<andythenorth>can we fuck with rating, modulated by number of reachable destinations in current pax graph for that station node?
06:59<andythenorth>more destinations -> higher rating
06:59<andythenorth>it’s an ugly hack, just occurred to me is all
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is usually that counting all potential destination is non-trivial
06:59<andythenorth>the station knows that, no?
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>also, low rating has bad side effects
06:59<andythenorth>the graph is known for each station, iirc from reading code
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the problem is finding the destinations which are not yet in the graph
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>also, you don't want to punish the start of the game too much
07:01<andythenorth>ranges?
07:01<andythenorth>1 destination = + 10%
07:01<andythenorth>2-5 = +10%
07:02<andythenorth>> 5 = + 10%
07:02<andythenorth>(max 30%)
07:02<andythenorth>dunno, just ideas
07:02<andythenorth>one, few, many
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's all terrible in its own way.
07:03<andythenorth>same could apply to freight :P
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>again, only if you find an efficient way to go over the whole map repeatedly and count which destination is connected and which one is not
07:08<andythenorth>that assumes you’re running a sum of % connected or such
07:08<andythenorth>I am proposing only a ‘more connections’ bonus
07:08<andythenorth>what do I miss?
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, it doesn't make a lot of sense to demand 5 destinations, when there are only 2 destinations on the map
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07:09<Eddi|zuHause>also, it doesn't make a lot of sense to demand 5 connections, when there are 3000 on the map
07:09<andythenorth>ach just count the number of towns
07:09<andythenorth>that’s known
07:10<andythenorth>quak also
07:22<frosch123>i have really developed a hatred about gnome-keyring this week
07:22<Eearslya>frosch123: Random FYI, you might wanna remove sell-button-depressing from the Todo list; that's where I got it from
07:23<frosch123>oh, didn't know it was from that list
07:23<frosch123>i thought, why had noone ever thought about that :)
07:23<Eearslya>I'm not that creative, unfortunately!
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07:25<Eearslya>Which is why now..I have no idea what to do next.
07:26<andythenorth>code RoadTypes :)
07:26<andythenorth>or NewDocks
07:27<Eearslya>I don't even know what those are and they both sound scary
07:27<andythenorth>ha
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07:29<Eearslya>I get the feeling like that has been suggested before, and there's a reason nobody's come up to the task yet.. XD
07:29<andythenorth>roadtypes is too hard, newdocks nobody finds it interesting :)
07:31<Eearslya>I get the feeling RoadTypes is..self-explanatory, but what's NewDocks?
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07:32<Zuu>Hello
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07:32<Eearslya>meow
07:32<Zuu>Cheers for your commited patch :-)
07:33<andythenorth>newdocks allows more flexibility in the location of docks
07:33<Zuu>For what next to do, find yourself an itch to solve.
07:33<andythenorth>not just on coast tiles
07:33<andythenorth>there are many complications and features that could be thought of
07:34<andythenorth>but basically, if they could be built on a 1x2 or 2x1 pair of (water, land) then most cases would be met
07:34<Zuu>And remember, the impossible only takes longer to do. :-)
07:34<Eearslya>See, that's the thing, Zuu..I'm not sure I've really played long enough to develop itches like that.
07:34<andythenorth>the main case is docks for rivers and canals, where raising land to make sloped tiles for the dock is ugly
07:35<andythenorth>flat docks could also be built at sea, using the canals-on-sea hack and a bulldozed tile :P
07:35<fonsinchen>andythenorth: There are many ways to weigh rating by number of reachable destinations. The problem is defining what you want to achieve with it. I've spent way too much time with that question in the past ...
07:35<andythenorth>it was prompted by a forum thread tbh
07:36<andythenorth>I thought maybe encouraging > 1 connection might be fun for some reason
07:37<andythenorth>and it would _maybe_ be an answer to the ‘more routes = less cargo per vehicle’ supposed problem
07:37<Zuu>Eearslya: You could browse OpenTTD Problems forum or feature requests in the bug tracker if you like to find others itches.
07:38<fonsinchen>The problem with the forum threads is that as soon as you propose something you instantly attract the people who "sort of" like your specific variant and start amending it with all kinds of complicated specials until it gets impossible to implement.
07:38<fonsinchen>In particular, don't talk to Eddi|zuHause ;)
07:39<andythenorth>ha ha
07:39<fonsinchen>The only way to solve it is come up with a single clear vision of what it should be and not let anybody influence you.
07:40<andythenorth>it’s plausible that station rating would be moderated by number of destinations served, but I don’t know if it has gameplay benefit
07:41<andythenorth>it’s also a step closer to enforcing a specific play style, which might be bad
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think some of the cargod[ei]st patches had that, and it was deemed bad for gameplay
07:42*Zuu liked that feature although it may had some flaw
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with station ratings, it has all sorts of side effects. disappearing cargo, closing industries, ...
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>especially combined with ECS, which has really hard restrictions of ratings
07:43<andythenorth>add a special flag on cargos, ‘prefers many destinations’ :P
07:43<andythenorth>or not
07:43*fonsinchen hears the word "special"
07:43<andythenorth>when there are complexity problems, add another var
07:43<andythenorth>or two
07:43<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
07:44<fonsinchen>Well, one thing is for sure: Whatever mechanism, you need to be able to turn it off.
07:44<andythenorth>it also does nothing for ‘lots of pax waiting at stations’ which is one of the 2 remaining niggles I have with cdist :)
07:44<andythenorth>it makes it worse, if anything
07:46<fonsinchen>Yes, the problem as it is now only appears once you have lots of destinations
07:46<fonsinchen>If you increase station rating with number of destinations the increase in number of passengers is even more dramatic than it is now.
07:48*andythenorth has been playing Mini Metro http://dinopoloclub.com/minimetro/
07:48<andythenorth>which gives passengers destinations based on shapes
07:48<fonsinchen>As a solution to the "too many pax" problem you could rather try to punish travelling time some more.
07:49<andythenorth>I think the solution is bigger vehicles :D
07:49<andythenorth>which I can help with :P
07:49<Eearslya>Zuu: My problem with forum suggestions is basically exactly what the 'Todo list' page says; a lot of user-suggestions are involved and complicated code-wise
07:49<Eearslya>That button thing was simple enough, at least!
07:50*andythenorth wonders if bigger vehicles actually helps
07:50<andythenorth>for congested transfer stations, it may at points lead to even higher ‘waiting’ counts
07:50<andythenorth>due to large vehicles unloading
07:51<frosch123>Eearslya: if you look for something easy, try https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6386 , if it interests you
07:51<frosch123>in ottd context i classify all gui things as easy, compared to the insanely interlinked game mechanics :)
07:53<Eearslya>Adding a scroll bar to local authority? Seems simple enough, yes
07:54<frosch123>scrollbar would be harder :p i thought just make the window scale correctly
07:55<frosch123>otoh, the space the ratings take compared to the town actions under it... :p
07:55<frosch123>maybe a scrollbar is not that bad
07:55<frosch123>though it may raise the question for sorting
07:56<Eearslya>What's it organized by now? ID?
07:56<frosch123>likely
07:56<frosch123>which is not that bad, because likely all places use the sorting
07:57<frosch123>but if you own company is at the bottom, it may be annoying to scroll all the time
07:57<frosch123>maybe sorting is too much, maybe only put the local company to the top
07:57<frosch123>your turn to get creative :p
07:58<Eearslya>So, the two options I see are to shrink the font to match the actions area, or scrollbar.
07:58<frosch123>there is only one front size
07:58<frosch123>you can either make the panel autosize to always be big enough
07:58<frosch123>or add a scrollbar
07:58<Eearslya>Really? I can swear the text below looks smaller. Huh.
07:59<frosch123>technically there are 4 font sizes in ottd, but there is one main font
07:59<Eearslya>Really glad I don't play in 800x600 myself, gotta say
08:00<Eearslya>Even at 1080 I end up with a somewhat cluttered UI
08:01<@Alberth>800x600 was pre-openttd era :)
08:02<frosch123>if you make the font big enough, you can turn it into 80x25 again :)
08:03<Eearslya>Sounds like a plan
08:06<andythenorth>adjust the station UI so it fits on my screen with 2x UI Zoom? o_O
08:06<andythenorth>or make it shadable
08:07<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/fertilizer_farm1.png andythenorth bit close to each other?
08:07<andythenorth>yes
08:07<andythenorth>FIRS 2?
08:08<@Alberth>beta2
08:08<@Alberth>FIRS economy
08:08<andythenorth>yeah, no guards
08:09<andythenorth>they are set manually at the moment, it should be done automatically, per economy on basis of supplied cargos :P
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08:12<@Alberth>or a check that some guard exists
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08:35<andythenorth>frosch123: L-R layout, more pleasing :) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
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08:46<Eearslya>What are the .sq files?
08:47<andythenorth>squirrel?
08:48<Eearslya>What's it for?
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08:54<drac_boy>hi
08:54<drac_boy>some of a long night for me heh :->
08:56<andythenorth>meh, do we need to support IE 8 for FIRS docs?
08:56<andythenorth>:|
08:57<andythenorth>also IE 9
08:58<drac_boy>docs?
08:59<Wolf01>they want to do them cool, and cool means browser compatibility
08:59<drac_boy>aren't docs supposed to just be text so browsers doesn't really apply?
09:00<Wolf01>firs is too complex to be just text
09:01<drac_boy>wolf01 I doubt that
09:02<andythenorth>eh
09:02<andythenorth>where are the docs that say docs are supposed to be text?
09:02<andythenorth>have you got a link?
09:02<andythenorth>is there a spec?
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09:12<andythenorth>‘diamonds’ or ‘precious metals’?
09:12<andythenorth>this is somewhat Africa, ish
09:13<andythenorth>so it could also be gold, platinum, rare earths
09:13<Wolf01>rare earths
09:13<Wolf01>so you can put in a "magnets industry" too
09:13<andythenorth>ha ha
09:14<Wolf01>and a full "electronic" chain
09:14<Wolf01>which ends up to delivering smartphones to population
09:14<Eearslya>I like it
09:14<drac_boy>wolf01 the only silly question is..how many phones are made of gold? :)
09:15<drac_boy>otherwise yeah I like the idea too perhaps
09:15<Eearslya>Gold is extremely common in electronic circuitry
09:15<Wolf01>almost all have some gold plated parts to get rid of oxidation
09:15<drac_boy>earslya..but 1 bar of gold per phone? I dunno
09:16<drac_boy>admittly I know htc used to make a diamond studded phone case once (I dunno if it was all real tho but the price was high)
09:16<Eearslya>frosch: you weren't kidding, scrollbars are a bit of a headache
09:17<drac_boy>either way I guess for something like ttdxp .. 'precious metals' might be better to avoid confusion with the mine>bank diamond cargo in vanilla industries
09:17<Eearslya>There's a diamond mine in vanilla?
09:19<@Alberth>sub-tropic climate
09:19<Eearslya>Ah; never played anything but temperate, that'd explain it
09:19<drac_boy>why only temperate? just curious :)
09:20<Eearslya>Becuase it's default? XD
09:20<drac_boy>nope theres four defaults
09:20<drac_boy>:)
09:20<Eearslya>Not really an actual reason that I use it, it's just what I'm used to I guess
09:20<@Alberth>default is all 4 climates :)
09:20<drac_boy>yeah ok, was only asking anyway
09:21<@Alberth>different climates make quite different game play, you should try them all :)
09:21<Eearslya>I really need to spend more than a few hours on a save file, too
09:21<@Alberth>Eearslya: :o you fixed the vehicle sell hover thingie, great! I just sufficiently annoyed to start doing it :p
09:21<@Alberth>+got
09:22<Eearslya>XD Yeah, and now I'm trying to add a scrollbar to local authority ratings
09:22<frosch>andythenorth: ivory?
09:22<frosch>way more explotive than gold or diamonds
09:22<drac_boy>eearslya what sort of trains do you usually run or it always varies?
09:22<@Alberth>much more controversal too
09:23<andythenorth>ivory is not mined :P
09:23<andythenorth>I just don’t have the heart to make evil economies :D
09:23<andythenorth>there are so many possibilities though
09:23<frosch>frosch: add ivory, ebony and piano cargos :p
09:24<andythenorth>:P
09:24<Eearslya>drac_boy: Like I said, I've never spent a lot of time on a single save, so the trains I make are usually just simple end-to-end lines
09:24<Eearslya>I've wanted to try the mainline strategy one of these days
09:25<frosch>why did i say that to myself?
09:25<andythenorth>losing your mind
09:25<frosch>the missing numbers confuse me maybe
09:26<andythenorth>I can’t parse frosch
09:26<andythenorth>it looks all wrong
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09:26<@Alberth>phew, you're back :)
09:28<drac_boy>eearslya well mine are often runs-on-occassion mixed trains with the solid coal/etc in the mix once in a while .. and you don't want know about my stations (its something ottd still wouldn't support as well last I checked)
09:28<drac_boy>:)
09:31<drac_boy>alberth what do you really think of the 4th climate anyway?
09:32<@Alberth>I think it is one of the better industry climates
09:32<andythenorth>frosch123: fixed the edge tooltips, and the background graph tooltip :)
09:32*andythenorth is feeling smug :P
09:32<andythenorth>_this_ kind of stuff is why it’s all in python, not raw nml
09:32<@Alberth>too bad most people are stuck in temperate though :(
09:33<andythenorth>Total Toyland Replacement
09:33<andythenorth>is a thing I would do if I lived long enough
09:33<@Alberth>noooooo
09:33<andythenorth>I would keep it fantasy
09:33<@Alberth>it needs much more love
09:34<andythenorth>V453000 didn’t go far enough with Yeti
09:34<Wolf01>don't dare to replace toyland, it's my favourite climate
09:34<andythenorth>I would make a world based on esoteric bits of pop culture
09:34<andythenorth>he started well with the Yetis
09:34<drac_boy>alberth heh well I don't use temperate much at all unless I'm interested in historic heavy freights (aka dbsetxl)
09:35<Zuu>Eearslya: AIs and GSs are written in a language called Squirrel.
09:35<@Alberth>squirrel 2, to be precise :)
09:35<andythenorth>so will I replace Diamonds in FIRS with Precious Metals, or is that just dumb?
09:35<Zuu>GS = Game Script have an API to highlight any button in the user interface. So when you add/remove buttons, there is a script included in OpenTTD source that you run to re-generate the .sq files.
09:35<drac_boy>andy...what will the banks receive then if its not diamonds?
09:35<frosch123>andythenorth: the latter :)
09:35<Zuu>Those files need re-generation also if you change the API for scripts as well.
09:36<andythenorth>there are no banks, so that’s moot
09:36<andythenorth>frosch123: can I add gold, in the same economy? :P
09:36<@Alberth>drac_boy: like banks receive raw diamonds :p
09:36<drac_boy>andy..then what are the gold vans supposed to carry?
09:36<andythenorth>I have no idea
09:37<drac_boy>(if you really want to I guess you could reclassify them for GOOD even although that may look weird)
09:37<andythenorth>I feel like we might be talking at cross purposes somehow
09:37<frosch123>andythenorth: sure, ogfx+industries allows diamond+gold+valueables
09:37<andythenorth>ho, valuables
09:37<andythenorth>‘valuables mine'
09:37<@Alberth>lol
09:37<@Alberth>valuables ours
09:37<andythenorth>ach, I’ll just put a bauxite mine in I guess
09:37<frosch123>valueable ore?
09:38<andythenorth>I want one more extractive cargo
09:38<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#hopes_and_impediments
09:38<drac_boy>bauxite could make steel anyway so that works
09:38<andythenorth>there is no steel
09:39<frosch123>andythenorth: why no ivory hunting yard?
09:40<andythenorth>same reason as no arms dealer
09:40<andythenorth>nor people smuggler
09:40<andythenorth>nor refugee camp
09:40<andythenorth>nor UN compound
09:40<frosch123>ok :)
09:40<andythenorth>although there is a lot of use of child labour in diamond mining, so eh
09:40<andythenorth>ethics are selective apparently
09:40<frosch123>i think diamonds is enough for an valueable ore
09:41<frosch123>rahter add some useful material
09:41<andythenorth>you had the ‘waste’ idea?
09:41<frosch123>waste was an import cargo
09:41<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/firs/suggestions/MISTAH_KURTZ2.dot.svg
09:41<frosch123>something which is imported, but has no real destination
09:41<frosch123>instead you can dump it at mines or sea based industries
09:42<frosch123>it's supposed to make you feel bad :)
09:44<andythenorth>hmm
09:44<andythenorth>potash
09:45<frosch123>can we find some ore that would have a different mine appearance
09:45<andythenorth>like nitrates? o_O
09:45<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#nitrate_mine
09:46<frosch123>hmm, what's the difference between kurtz and basic tropic
09:46<frosch123>i feel they are converging
09:46<andythenorth>that is a problem yes
09:46<andythenorth>primarily, kurtz is much larger, more like FIRS
09:47<andythenorth>and about half the chains have to be player-constructed
09:47<andythenorth>the aim is to switch from export to export + basic manufacturing
09:47<andythenorth>it imposes a play style, but Other Economies Are Available :)
09:47<Eearslya>Welp, turns out the fix for this issue is..a hundred times simpler than what I was going for.
09:47<andythenorth>it needs Busy Bee or SV to drive it
09:48<frosch123>hmm, lead is just black, is it? to much like coal
09:48<Eearslya>Lead could be a dark purple
09:48<andythenorth>phosphate is a possible choice, it can replace clay in cement, and it would fit a planned Canadian economy too
09:48<andythenorth>phosphate mine could be a few diggers :P
09:50<andythenorth>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Togo_phosphates_mining.jpg
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>how's that different from any other mine?
09:51<Eearslya>frosch123: Turns out the authority ratings already had code to force itself to be large enough to fit..But because it was being rendered at the bottom of the screen, its resize was getting clamped. Turning that off is way easier than adding a scrollbar XD
09:52<andythenorth>bright white? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_2e-QnBoorY/ViZ4994ypDI/AAAAAAAAB4s/IUztitOZNSg/s1600/Phosphate%2BMine%2BAerial.png
09:52<andythenorth>kind of square?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>just recolour the sand pit and take the water out?
09:53<andythenorth>plausible
09:53<andythenorth>deep ocean phosphate mining? http://www.theinertia.com/surf/scorpion-bay-threatened-by-deep-water-phosphate-mining/
09:54<andythenorth>http://www.oceanflore.com/17
09:55<andythenorth>http://www.linternaute.com/science/technologie/diaporamas/06/paysages-industriels/images/02.jpg
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10:00<andythenorth>phosphate just likes like nitrates though
10:00<andythenorth>so nah
10:02<andythenorth>likes / looks
10:07<frosch123>stuff with other colours is nice
10:08<andythenorth>maybe I should just play the economy :P
10:08<frosch123>but yes, it sounds like more fertilizer
10:08<frosch123>some electronic cargo may be nicer
10:08<frosch123>rare earth is not that bad
10:10<andythenorth>‘rare earth mine’?
10:12<andythenorth>mostly china, it seems
10:13<andythenorth>platinum? 100t per year?
10:18<andythenorth>soda ash mining? From lakes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Magadi#/media/File:Lake_Magadi_2014.jpg
10:29<Eearslya>Add ALL the industries!
10:31<@Alberth>only 32 cargoes :p
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10:33<frosch123>andythenorth: uranium is too ivory?
10:36<Eearslya>Alberth: I think you mean 3200
10:41<andythenorth>uranium is possible
10:41<andythenorth>as is salt, soda ash, a bunch of minerals :)
10:41<andythenorth>I could just put gold in :P
10:41<andythenorth>gold is annoying, because it’s low volume :)
10:42<andythenorth>frosch123: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkolobwe
10:43<andythenorth>what transports uranium? o_O
10:43<@Alberth>nah, not in openttd :)
10:44<@Alberth>yetis
10:44<Eearslya>Just make every tile be an industry, problem solved
10:45<@Alberth>number of industries is not a problem, as long as you have not more than 64 types of them
10:45<@Alberth>but euhm, some room for rail tracks would be nice :)
10:47<drac_boy>and grass :)
10:52<andythenorth>I could do cocoa
10:52<andythenorth>it’s a bit similar to coffee though
10:52<andythenorth>for OpenTTD purposes
10:55<Eearslya>Cocoa could be coffee for toyland
10:57<@Alberth>toyland needs more magical cargoes, like magic, sprinkles, and stuff
10:57<Eearslya>pixie dust
10:58<Eearslya>+ faith and trust
10:58<@Alberth>stars
10:58<Eearslya>Magic could feed into a wand factory :D
10:59<andythenorth>unicorns
11:00<andythenorth>glitter
11:01<@Alberth>sun rays
11:03<Eearslya>silly hats
11:04<Eearslya>joy/jokes
11:04<andythenorth>christmas lights
11:05<Wolf01>mmmh, could somebody help me? (XNA graphics) i'm trying to draw sprites in different layers with a single pass of the sprite batch, but it only draws the last layer used
11:06<Eearslya>you could try and tweak the pixel opacity on the omega layer of the--I have no idea what you're doing
11:08<Wolf01>uhm, it might be
11:09<Mazur>Crackers.
11:09<Mazur>Parrty hats.
11:10<Mazur>Joy buzzers, also useful as feminine products.
11:24<@Alberth>so many nice cargoes to tranport :)
11:27<frosch123>andythenorth: natual uranium is not that dangerous
11:27<frosch123>it is quite toxic
11:27<frosch123>but not particulary radioactive before enrichment
11:27<frosch123>so, i guess like copper?
11:27<andythenorth>I think I’m going to put gold in
11:28<andythenorth>it’s the major west african export by value :P
11:28<andythenorth>and I don’t have to draw anything
11:28<frosch123>:p
11:29<andythenorth>it comes to about the same, in terms of quantities and game effect :)
11:29<frosch123>also true :)
11:32<Wolf01>mmmh, suddenly it works without changes (i just reverted the changes i made because i found they didn't work as expected)
11:34<Wolf01>i just changed the background from Color.Black to Color.White and to black again just to check if it was a problem of the renderer...
11:34<Wolf01>wtf
11:35<@Alberth>you triggered a recompilation of some critical file?
11:36<Wolf01>i don't think so, i was working on the same 2 classes
11:37<Wolf01>other changes were shown, i doubt it is so stupid to compile only half of a class
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11:39<__ln__>@seen Bjarni
11:39<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 5 weeks, 5 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
11:39<Wolf01>but i found that drawing a rectangle as a background instead of just clearing the render target doesn't work
11:41<Wolf01>but it crashed just when preparing a 1x1 black texture, after i removed the code it worked :|
11:42<__ln__>maybe you should call Bjarni and ask for hints
11:43<Wolf01>it seem that nobody knows the right procedure to summon him, and i don't want to lose a leg and an arm to try
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11:44<__ln__>it's not like his home address and phone number isn't online
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12:24<andythenorth>frosch123: Hopes and Impediments GS? (yeah FIRS specific, eh)
12:25<andythenorth>in a number of cities, build industries producing Food and Building Materials
12:25<andythenorth>transport x per year
12:25<andythenorth>+ it messes with you occasionally, by destroying industries, or routes, or confiscating your money
12:38<frosch123>i think award-driven gs are better than punishment-driven gs :p
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12:39<@Alberth>indeed, I'd play with it, until the first time it messes with me
12:40<andythenorth>do you two have disasters disabled?
12:40<frosch123>yes :)
12:40<@Alberth>yes
12:40<andythenorth>+1
12:40<andythenorth>same reason
12:40<frosch123>service industry well, and another may pop up
12:40<@Alberth>mostly due to the big ufo thing
12:40<frosch123>colonisation gs :)
12:40<andythenorth>subsidence is the one that annoys me :P
12:40<andythenorth>hmm
12:40<frosch123>starting industries only at sea
12:41<frosch123>growing inwards
12:41<andythenorth>I do want to do that
12:41<andythenorth>but for a North American economy
12:41<andythenorth>maybe it works for African / Post-Colonial too
12:42<andythenorth>I would have it build towns also, maybe that’s an optional parameter though
12:42<Eearslya>I always play with disasters and breakdowns off
12:42<andythenorth>more generic, configurable GS
12:43*andythenorth wonders who should control industry placement, FIRS or GS :P
12:43<@Alberth>breakdowns off is too easy :)
12:43<andythenorth>FIRS has limited control, GS has limited knowledge of industry :P
12:44<Taede>can firs supply details about industries to gs?
12:44<andythenorth>nah
12:44<andythenorth>no communication
12:44<andythenorth>zilch
12:44<sim-al2>I've always wondered what CS was thinking with breakdowns in the orginal...
12:44<andythenorth>nvm, the map can be whatever the map is
12:44<Taede>in that case, firs
12:44<frosch123>sim-al2: same as with slopes?
12:44<Taede>as firs will need to do it anyway when there is no gs
12:45<frosch123>andythenorth: what would be industry specific?
12:45<andythenorth>for placement?
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27447 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-15 18:45:11 +0100 )
12:45<frosch123>the life_type information was enough for sv
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
12:45<frosch123>can you give examples?
12:45<frosch123>what would a gs do with placement for specific industries?
12:45<andythenorth>I am setting it by probability currently, for H+I
12:46<sim-al2>frosch123: I admit I haven't actually played the orginal, but since vanilla OTTD is compatiable, I assume the slope and curve model behaved the same?
12:46<andythenorth>so farms growing export crops, plus copper, diamond mines are available widely at game start
12:46<andythenorth>industry producing non-export cargos are very limited, and have to be funded
12:46<frosch123>sim-al2: there are two accerlation models in ottd for trains: "original" (i think still the default), and "realistic
12:47<andythenorth>it’s easy to control by probability, but I don’t bother about, e.g. placing most near coast or whatever
12:47<frosch123>the original one baiscally says "never build on any slope ever"
12:47<andythenorth>who knows if there’s even coast :P
12:47<andythenorth>so that’s one issue (industries placed at map gen time)
12:48<andythenorth>the other is which industries to open new instances of
12:48<sim-al2>Yeah, I played the orgnial acceleration model for a few minutes and was so confused I never have played with it again :)
12:54<Zuu>Taede: For GS -> NewGRF communication, I made a post about a patch here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=73366
12:55<Zuu>NewGRF -> GS will not work other than that NewGRF could set attributes to objects they supply OpenTTD which the GS could read via GS APIs.
12:55<Zuu>Callbacks in GS cannot really exist. NewGRF could at best trigger an event being sent to the GS.
12:56<Zuu>GS ::Save() being an exception for a callback that we do have though. :-)
12:56<Zuu>With problems of some AIs/GSs taking too long to save.
13:01<Zuu>Oh, and I even made a GS that make use of the GS -> NewGRF bridge. But it turned out being similar to the concept of supplies in FIRS. http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=73379
13:02<Wolf01>bah, i give up... now an entire tile category is not showing up while all the others do :|
13:02<andythenorth>Zuu: don’t discount the production change :)
13:03<andythenorth>(1) it offers GS a way to reward player with increased production (2) it can control closures (iirc)
13:03<@Alberth>frosch123: orignal TTD didn't have freight weight multiplier :)
13:04<andythenorth>it just happened in summer when I was away a lot, so I never thought about it since :)
13:06<Zuu>There may be other GS ideas that make better use of it perhaps along with a more competent NewGRF than IMessengerNewGRF. But the one I made was not adding much over FIRS supplies.
13:09<andythenorth>no, because it’s driven by player actions :)
13:09<andythenorth>my idea (how I don’t know) is to have it driven more by the GS narrative
13:09<andythenorth>FIRS networks are very stable and static once you get them established
13:10<andythenorth>original TTD messes with you more, which is desirable on small maps
13:10<Zuu>Speaking of that, I liked some forum guy trying to make a more storry telling map based on a world map scenario + GS rules. IIRC that user wanted the winning condition to be building two oil refineries.
13:13<Zuu>So you want an Economy GS that mess with production levels?
13:14<Zuu>That is better then the TTD logic that you somehow have disabled(?) in FIRS?
13:17<@Alberth>station rating and industry production change is fully in the hands of an industry newgrf
13:18<frosch123>not sure whether you can say that station rating is really in the hands of newgrf :p
13:18<@Alberth>but newgrf lacks overview of the world, so cannot really decide eg building new industries, or change of production
13:25<andythenorth>with GS, industries could respond to all kinds of things
13:25<andythenorth>whereas with newgrf, it’s pretty much limited to cargo delivery
13:26<andythenorth>so for example (lame example), electricity could be faked
13:26<andythenorth>generating power in a town could double industry production there
13:27<andythenorth>actually that would fit well for the economy I am working on :o
13:27<andythenorth>and provide a valid excuse for ‘do nothing’ industries like wind farms and hydro-plants
13:28<Zuu>In Productive Bee, completeing a town goal, improves production of primary industries of that town. Completing a industry goal upgrade the efficentcy of the destination industry.
13:28<andythenorth>will your patch be in OpenTTD 1.6? o_O
13:28*andythenorth considers rewriting part of FIRS to work better with it
13:28<frosch123>andythenorth: remember town-based newgrf persistent storage? :)
13:29<frosch123>it's actually implemented
13:29<frosch123>you can do powerplants with that
13:29<andythenorth>I know
13:29<andythenorth>I just never did :P
13:29<andythenorth>has *anybody* done anything with town storage? o_O
13:29<frosch123>nope :p
13:30<Zuu>Depends on if I find time and motivation to work on it.
13:30<_dp_>me :)
13:30<frosch123>just like noone uses extended action1 or new capacity multipliers
13:30<_dp_>used it to hide some data in savegame without breaking compatibility :)
13:31<andythenorth>hmm
13:31<Zuu>_dp_: I looked at your FS#6378 town growth patch. But it takes some time to grasp. :-)
13:32<_dp_>well, I tried my best to explain)
13:32<andythenorth>I think, if I went looking in transcripts, I was told that using town storage for electricity was a monstrous fragile hack
13:32<andythenorth>“and I should know better” :P
14:05<andythenorth>hmm
14:07<andythenorth>probably can’t haul copper in one of these :o https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8201/8170684404_fc0e7e9733_b.jpg
14:07<andythenorth>nvm
14:10<@Alberth>wouldn't that be short distance only?
14:11<@Alberth>assuming copper should stay liquid?
14:15<Zuu>_dp_: btw I second your idea of Markdown on flyspray. But I would not set my hopes too high.
14:17<greeter>:-D
14:22<greeter>just switched to 32 bit graphics. what an improvement
14:24<Zuu>_dp_: I got a question regarding your growth_rate formula in SetGrowthRate: https://notehub.org/fbsc8
14:24<@Alberth>Eearslya: you forgot to fix the multi-sell vehicle button
14:25<Eearslya>Alberth: But you don't drag vehicles onto that button
14:25<@Alberth>oh sure you do
14:25<Eearslya>who drags a single vehicle onto the button to sell all the vehicles in the depot
14:25<@Alberth>it sells the wagin or engine, and everything after it
14:25<Eearslya>..Oh. Trains.
14:26<Eearslya>Hm.
14:26<Eearslya>Well I need to do math homework first
14:26<Eearslya>but I'll get that
14:27<@Alberth>math hoemwork is much more important :)
14:27<@Alberth>and thanks :)
14:27<frosch123>don't you do that by ctrl?
14:28<@Alberth>no?
14:28<@Alberth>ctrl+ what then?
14:29<_dp_>Zuu, + TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS / 2 is for rounding to nearest instead of rounding down, but about +1 you may be right, let me think a bit
14:29<_dp_>or -1 for that matter
14:30<frosch123>maybe you can use RoundDivSU
14:30<_dp_>Zuu, ah, here you get it: if (growth_rate > 0) growth_rate--;
14:30<_dp_>just had to do it separately coz of unsigned
14:30<frosch123>Alberth: nevermind, got confused :)
14:32*andythenorth invents a generic cargo that might be silly, but solves me a bunch of problems
14:32<andythenorth>industrial minerals
14:33<_dp_>yeah, RoundDivSU is probably fine too. Though it looks a bit fishy for a=0
14:33<Zuu>_dp_: Oh yea I forgot to examinate :5 for the -1.
14:33<@Alberth>andythenorth: double Chinook diesel arrived, great train :)
14:34<andythenorth>ha
14:34<andythenorth>I am favouring ‘this engine is just the right size’
14:35<andythenorth>and not having to build up multiples, unless you have silly freight weight multiplier
14:35<Zuu>_dp_: Isn't RoundDivSU always going to yield 0 when a is 0?
14:35<andythenorth>also in the UK, a unit of that engine is a Chopper, so it’s a terrible pun also
14:35<@Alberth>4, but short train :)
14:37<andythenorth>hmm, newgrf wiki knows Potash cargo already
14:37<andythenorth>but I think I want something more generic
14:38<_dp_>Zuu, well, mb it is but it's hard to tell on a first glance coz it's going in < 0 branch
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14:39<andythenorth>label for Industrial Minerals?
14:39<andythenorth>shame InMin is too long :P
14:39*_dp_ never trusts comments
14:39<Zuu>Yep, but if b is say 100, then in the top you get (0 - (100-1)/2) = (0 - 99/2) = (0 - 48). Then divide it by 100, and you get 0.
14:40<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess better go for GOLD
14:40<_dp_>Zuu, yy, now I see it too
14:40<Zuu>No matter how lange be is, the top part of the division is gonig to be less than the bottom part.
14:40<Zuu>s/be/b/
14:41<andythenorth>heh
14:41<andythenorth>can’t make cement from GOLD :)
14:41<andythenorth>afaik
14:41<frosch123>noone will know what industrial minerals is
14:41<Zuu>I'm not sure I would have implemented that function that way though. But it seem to handle a=0.
14:41<andythenorth>it’s almost just ‘stuff’ :P
14:41<andythenorth>it comes from a ‘mine'
14:41<frosch123>picking an existing cargo label at random would be better :p
14:42<frosch123>Zuu: a=0 works for both the upper and lower case
14:42<frosch123>it doesn't matter
14:42<Zuu>Anyway thanks for explaining the formula thingy. Appears your formula is sound. Then if it should be like you wrote it or using RoundDivSU is another question. I didn't even knew RoundivSU existed before you told me.
14:43<andythenorth>InMin :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_mineral
14:43<andythenorth>it’s all the things
14:44<_dp_>frosch123, yeah, but with a>=0 would be a bit more clean imo. very minor thing though
14:44<Zuu>One point for keeping it as _db_ did it is it won't do unsigned => signed conversion.
14:45<frosch123>sounds academic :p
14:45<_dp_>actually, there is other flaw in RoundDivSU, it accepts uint b but instanly butchers it with conversion to int)
14:46<frosch123>are you sure you know how uint and int work?
14:46<_dp_>I suspect it's to disallow calling it with b<0 but assert would probably be better there
14:47<frosch123>it's said in the very description that a is signed, and b is unsigned
14:47<frosch123>for a signed b it would be way more complicated
14:47<frosch123>your would need +1 instead of -1
14:48<_dp_>ok, nvm, it can overflow in + anyway, there is just no good way of fighting it in C I guess
14:50<andythenorth>well
14:50<andythenorth>industrial minerals could be secondary cargo at clay pit and copper ore mine
14:50<andythenorth>nah actually
14:57<Zuu>_dp_: TOWN_GROW_RATE_NORMAL is a new special value that can be sent to CmdTownGrowthRate, thus you should include it in doxygen comment for p2 where it says the possible values p2 can take.
14:58<frosch123>does it need any compatibility scripts?
14:58<frosch123>savegame conversion?
14:59<_dp_>Zuu, it's not new, I just changed it value to fit in uint16
14:59<Zuu>Well, then it is an old flaw of the doxygen comment. :-)
15:01<_dp_>frosch123, definitely not savegame and don't think it needs compatibility either
15:01<Zuu>Maybe academic, but personally I would call it "growth interval" rather than "growth rate".
15:02<Zuu>But then the API is already GrowthRate and may be too late to change.
15:02<Zuu>Or at least out of the scope of this patch.
15:03<_dp_>frosch123, though it probably needs savegame version bump
15:06<andythenorth>bah
15:06<frosch123>if there is no savegame conversion, it also needs no version bump
15:06<andythenorth>if my InMin hack is unacceptable, I’ll have to fix the actual problems :P
15:07<frosch123>andythenorth: switch to iron horse again
15:07<andythenorth>ha ha
15:07<frosch123>InMin is seriously stupid :p
15:07<andythenorth>clay bothers me for this african economy
15:07<andythenorth>apparently, who’d have thought, iron ore or bauxite are frequently used in cement manufacture
15:08<andythenorth>it’s like an education, OpenTTD
15:08<andythenorth>maybe I don’t need clay
15:08<andythenorth>‘but people will find it weird andythenorth'
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15:12<_dp_>frosch123, nah, it's tricky, it introduces new special value for growth_rate, it doesn't need conversion and can't be deduced anyway, but needs version bump to disallow reading new saves with old versions that will treat it as regular value instead of special
15:13<Zuu>Hmm so the point of TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED is that it is a large number which the growth_rate will be set to so that the TwonTickHandler will set grow_counter this large number if the counter get down to zero before a 'normal' growth_rate has been calculated?
15:13<frosch123>_dp_: noone uses that special value
15:13<andythenorth>iron ore, never gets boring, let’s add that
15:13<andythenorth>it’s in most other economies :P
15:14<frosch123>that's why i never understood that patch :p
15:15<Zuu>Yeah it is a bit strange that the growth code is not changed to check for TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED. But it beeing a very large number seem to make it work anyway.
15:17<andythenorth>hmm, this economy will work well with NCG, if I can get the goals to be building materials and food
15:18<Zuu>Hack it? Or be lucky :-)
15:19<_dp_>Zuu, nah, it's just a special value to indicate that growth_rate is not calulated yet, and it only appears when town is not growing (so tick handler has nothing to do with it)
15:20<_dp_>frosch123, what do you mean noone? it can happen, though is not very likely so probably nobody will notice a bug
15:22<Zuu>Oh I see your Cmd calls UpdateTownGrowRate. I though it was called eventually some time in the future.
15:23<frosch123>_dp_: that value is used nowhere
15:24<frosch123>UpdateTownGrowRate rassigned growth_rate before anyone uses it
15:25<frosch123>i think all that the patch changes is changing some rounding from rounding-down to rounding nearest in the api part
15:25<_dp_>no, UpdateTownGrowRate doesn't update rate if town is not growing
15:25<_dp_>and that's the whole reason for that undef value
15:25<frosch123>i think the changes in town_cmd.cpp do nothing at all
15:26<_dp_>it only matters when someone uses gs to change rate while town is not growing
15:27<_dp_>frosch123, and you're completely wrong assuming it only changes rounding
15:28<_dp_>it changes a lot of small things
15:31<Zuu>Oh.. UpdateTownGrowRate can sometimes by random fail to set growth_rate. So then after the Cmd is completed, growth_rate will be left at TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED
15:31<frosch123>ok, if the town is not growing because of preconditions, it changes the api to return a larget GetGrowthRate instead of a very small one
15:31<frosch123>both look equally wrong to me
15:32<frosch123>don't you rather want to change UpdateTownGrowRate, so that it always computes a growth_rate?
15:32<frosch123>instead of leaving a random (though fixed) value in it?
15:32<Zuu>MaybeUpdateTownGrowRate should not by some random return when growth_rate == TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED?
15:32<_dp_>frosch123, it isn't about GetGrowthRate, it's all about SetGrowthRate, but you have a point there, I didn't think of what get will be returning
15:33<Zuu>I haven't got to the GetGrowthRate yet, but the main ponit of the patch as I see it is for GSes that do frequent changes to growth rate.
15:35<_dp_>Zuu, yeah, it's all about gs, you see it right)
15:36<_dp_>frosch123, I'll think of changing UpdateGrowthRate, mb you're right
15:36<Zuu>As in trunk, changing rowth rate resets the grow_counter to growth rate. But with the patch it tries to keep growth progress and even scale it when rate is changed.
15:36<frosch123>i think UpdateTownGrowRate should be split into two functions
15:36<frosch123>a separate GetNormalGrowthRate
15:36<_dp_>frosch123, didn't consider it as I was trying to fix GS and not dig deep in town growing mechanics)
15:36<Zuu>grow_counter start at growth_rate and then is decreased until it reaches 0 and then town grows.
15:36<frosch123>which the command can use, to assign growth_rate
15:36<frosch123>and scale grow_counter
15:38<frosch123>Zuu: i think _dp_ main problem is, that "old_rate" in CmdTownGrowthRate is incorrect, if the previous UpdateTownGrowRate did not compute a growth_rate
15:39<Zuu>Well it will not get to that line, because it check if t>growth_rate != TOWR_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED
15:39<Zuu>But I second your suggestion as it avoids that situation.
15:39<frosch123>in trunk "old_rate" is mostly 0, in the patched version it would be 0x7FFF
15:39<frosch123>both values are wrong, just in different directions
15:40<Zuu>In the patch if "old_rate" is 0x7FFF it won't scale at all.
15:40<Zuu>It will only check if counter >= p2, and in that case set counter := p2.
15:42<_dp_>hm, ok, din't find any problems with fixing UpdateTownGrowRate instead, I'll update patch then
15:43<frosch123>Zuu: that's the same what trunk does
15:43<frosch123>in trunk 0 is essentially the same as _UNDEFINED
15:44<_dp_>frosch123, Zuu, did you look in examples I included in bug description? they're a bit mess without markdown, but I did them specifically to compare with trunk(or so)
15:45<Zuu>I started looking on them, but then when I started to look at the code it made more sense. :-)
15:48<Zuu>frosch123: Oh I see trunk scales too. I kind of ignored the negative part of the patch.
15:48<Zuu>(negative = rows with a -)
15:49<_dp_>Zuu, btw, looking in test-town-growth-cmd.cpp I included may also help
15:50<Zuu>_db_: when you pass 0 to CmdTownGrowthRate it should reset custom growth rate according to doxygen. Does that happen still with your patch?
15:51<Zuu>With pass, I mean p2 := 0
15:52<_dp_>Zuu, no, missed that, ty, I'll remove that part in next ver of patch
15:54<_dp_>no, not remove, replace 0 with TOWN_GROWTH_NORMAL
15:54<_dp_>*TOWN_GROW_RATE_NORMAL
15:54<_dp_>too many constants %)
15:58<Zuu>Sounds good assuming no code is actually passing 0 to it.
15:59<_dp_>Zuu, it's only used by GS and that part I changed
16:00<_dp_>hm, anyone knows why UpdateTownGrowRate calls SetWindowDirty three times?
16:01<frosch123>once should be enough :)
16:01<_dp_>ok, I'll fix it too then)
16:02<frosch123>it does not matter when SetDirty is called
16:02<frosch123>it marks the screen area dirty
16:02<frosch123>the drawing (an usage of variables) happenes later
16:02<frosch123>so, it is enough to call SetDirty at the beginning, no need to call it at every return
16:03<Eearslya>Alberth: Think I got it done; you want me to make a FS issue or just give you the diff?
16:04<@Alberth>please add it to fly spray, I am off to bed soon
16:04<Eearslya>Oh, and FYI, they were right. Holding CTRL while dropping a vehicle on the Sell button will do the same as sell chain
16:05<@Alberth>ah, still learning things about openttd :)
16:05<Eearslya>As am I!
16:05<_dp_>frosch123, yeah, I suspected that, but hard to tell that none of SetDirty functions rely on that, I'm not very good with gui code :(
16:05<@Alberth>also, don't bring scrap metal to iron works, they don't want it :p
16:06<andythenorth>o_O
16:07<_dp_>frosch123, ah, it's not virtual, that makes it easier)
16:07<andythenorth>yes there are some gameplay facets there :)
16:10<Eearslya>There we are, uploaded and ready for review
16:11<Zuu>_dp_: I'd say it is a general fact for many GUI systems, not just OpenTTD that a "set dirty" command would not actally repaint the screen right ahead.
16:12<Zuu>But if you never dealt with it before it may not be obvious.
16:13<_dp_>Zuu, I know, just being a bit paranoid :)
16:14<Zuu>A portion of paranoidism may be good when programming. :-)
16:15<frosch123>i don't think the difference of InvalidateData and SetDirty is that obvious :p
16:18<Zuu>No, but wasn't the question the difference of calling SetDirty 1 time or 3 times?
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16:21<frosch123>yes, but for InvalidateData it would not be the same :p
16:21*andythenorth needs one more cargo
16:21<andythenorth>some kind of valuable export
16:22<andythenorth>but eh, not today
16:22<andythenorth>bed
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16:22<Zuu>frosch123: Ah. well that is a point.
16:23<Zuu>The doxygen of InvalidateData doesn't make any good on conveying that OnInvalidateData is being called right away. It says "Mark this window's data as invalid (in need of re-computing)"
16:24<Zuu>Though, there is a distinction there between gui_scope true/false in what it does.
16:24<frosch123>the documenation is in InvalidateWindowData :p
16:27<frosch123>it's one of the nastier parts of ottd :)
16:33<_dp_>frosch123, Zuu, with fixed UpdateTownGrowRate I'm considering moving all grow_counter calculation there instead of doing it in CmdTownGrowthRate, what do you think?
16:33<frosch123>sounds reasonable
16:34<_dp_>it brings up that counter scale question, but at least it will be consistent))
16:34<frosch123>i think always scale is most consistent
16:34<frosch123>it's most robust wrt. to multiple changes imho
16:35<_dp_>well, so be it, doesn't look like it matters much to me anyway
16:35<_dp_>still, there is more than one way to scale :)
16:36<_dp_>((2 * t->grow_counter + 1) * (p2 + 1)) / (2 * (old_rate + 1)) - 1
16:36<_dp_>((t->grow_counter + 1) * (p2 + 1) + (old_rate + 1) / 2) / (old_rate + 1) - 1
16:36<_dp_>current is: t->grow_counter * p2 / old_rate
16:36<Eearslya>oh god the math
16:36<Eearslya>it hurts
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16:38<Zuu>Eearslya: Wasn't you doing math homework?
16:38<Eearslya>Well yes but at least my math makes sense
16:39<_dp_>it's about that progress uncertainty interval I mention in bug
16:39<_dp_>first formula puts it to lower end of interval, second to the middle iirc
16:39<_dp_>and current is all over it)
16:42<_dp_>also could probably use exact tick value to make it even more complicated xD
16:52<frosch123>night
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16:52<Zuu>That's a good idea. Good night.
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18:50<Wolf01>'night
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19:02<drac_boy>hi
19:03<drac_boy>just wondering now that I thought of it but..can you have a single grf that would function both with and without 32bit pixel support or does that have to be two separate grfs otherwise?
19:10<Supercheese>just one grf
19:10<Supercheese>all grfs require 8bpp sprites in the event someone has forced their blitter to 8bpp
19:11<Supercheese>(even though there shouldn't be much reason for that anyway)
19:12<drac_boy>oh so if it was given to either ttdxp or some odd ottd it'll just ignore the 32bit aspects then?
19:13<Supercheese>yes, if 32bpp is disabled for whatever reason, fallback sprites are technically mandatory
19:13<Supercheese>of course, there's also nothing technically stopping the author from putting 1x1 blank pixel sprites as their 8bpp fallbacks.......
19:13<Supercheese>but I wager most folks wouldn't do that :P
19:17<drac_boy>supercheese "most" would have to exclude a certain popular grf arthor in here tho but yeah I see your point tho :)
19:18<Supercheese>(that's the joke ;) )
19:18<Supercheese>as with most things in grfs, the authors have considerable leeway
19:18<drac_boy>either way thanks btw, was just curious if I ever somehow decided to try find out some way to draw 32bit .. for now its just 8bit due to compatibility
19:18<Supercheese>but really, users should keep 32bpp on all the time
19:50<drac_boy>hows you anyway supercheese
19:51<Supercheese>enjoying playing lots of Factorio
19:54<drac_boy>:p
20:04*drac_boy is trying to find some uk/europe websites for now :-s
20:14<drac_boy>you'll think I could find some french trains after all heh
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>have you looked in the river yet? </bad_joke>
20:33<drac_boy>lest the river runs under your floor eddi :P
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20:42<drac_boy>oh yeah .. saw a ready to run africa AD60 for more than $800 .. ouch .. the hobby can be expensive for some :p
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, you won't get very complicated and/or detailed models in the <100€ category
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm fairly sure there's no upper boundary
20:54<drac_boy>if you want to go really high, try brass live steam? :)
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21:45<FLHerne>Do 7¼" miniatures count as 'models'? Those can be tens of thousands!
21:52<drac_boy>hmm flherne good question..I'm not sure if ride-on trains are really called "model" even although they're not full scale
21:53<FLHerne>Well, the exact-to-scale (within possibility) working replicas ought to
21:53<FLHerne>I saw a 7¼" Black Five once, it was quite impressive
21:55<drac_boy>the bigger it is the more likely it fell under a "too much free time on hand" long term project :) tbh heres one extreme example that took a few long years http://www.northernsteam.com/assets/images/TM-09/TM%20(28).jpg
21:56<drac_boy>the funny thing about ride-on live steam tho is that sometimes what did not work well in 1:1 scale can actually work well in smaller scale due to smaller higher-pressure boilers etc
21:57<drac_boy>(I'll have to check but I recall the real thing only had like 200-250psi or so...this model one has close to 400)
21:58<drac_boy>oh..random tidbit but I recall that Santa Fe for a short time did have a 300psi boiler but they found that it was wrecking the siderods .. cue rest of production being bought in-line with only 280psi instead .. afaik that was the only one short time 300psi existed on real usa steam locomotives
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22:06<drac_boy>anyway going sleep now
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 16 00:00:07 2015