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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-16

---Logopened Mon Nov 16 00:00:07 2015
---Daychanged Mon Nov 16 2015
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03:34<Wolf01>o/
03:54<Wolf01>uhm, i just noticed i don't have any racing game on steam
03:57<Wolf01>i could redeem grid, but i would like a rally game more
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05:14<@planetmaker>o/
05:14<Wolf01>o/
05:14<V453000>\o
05:15<Eearslya>meow
05:16<V453000>rawr
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11:31<Casual>Uhhh that is more people than I expected
11:31<Casual>Okay anyway, I have a question about the terminus station setup
11:31<Casual>http://wiki.openttd.org/images/c/cb/Terminus.png
11:31<Casual>This thing
11:32<Casual>Is there a way to make it work without risking a jam in the cross-section
11:32<Casual>Or is the only way to make terminus work "properly" is to just make a ro-ro and loop it back around
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11:33<@planetmaker>Casual, of course you can build other terminus layouts :)
11:34<@planetmaker>especially, *do* use proper signaling and it becomes jam-free
11:34<@planetmaker>though the examples you do show are jam-free - provided the trains don't jam the exit track
11:35<@planetmaker>if your copy of the screenshots are not jam-free you did an error in copying the signaling
11:36-!-frosch123 [~frosch@x4d0083d7.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd
11:37<@planetmaker>o/
11:38<_dp_>what are two-way pbs for near each platform?
11:39<frosch123>hoi
11:39<@planetmaker>the reason for those? None. They can be left-out
11:39<_dp_>hi
11:39<@planetmaker>for a strict terminus setup they can be left-out. You can build the same thing in-line. Then you need them
11:40<_dp_>ah, yeah, that explains it
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11:41<_dp_>but strict terminus is better without them, iirc it doesn't count as travel time when train is waiting for path on station
11:41<@planetmaker>dunno. Maybe :)
11:41<Casual>planetmaker, but if two trains are already at the station, then nothing prevents the third train from entering the cross-section block as it is separate, which creates a permanent jam
11:42<@planetmaker>Casual, it does. In both cases due to the signaling chosen. Look careful:
11:42<_dp_>at least that's the only way to explain why terminus gives more income per train than roro sometimes)
11:42<@planetmaker>in the upper part, there are exit signals near the station and an entry signal on the incoming line
11:42<@planetmaker>both exit signals will be red when the station is occupied, thus the entry one, too
11:43<@planetmaker>in the path signal case (lower image), you won't get a reservation past the entry signal either as it's occupied
11:44<Casual>Why would the entry signal be red when both block signals are red? I thought only pre-signals relied on state of other signals
11:44<@planetmaker>_dp_, that might of course also simply be explained by longer tracks, can't it?
11:44<@planetmaker>Casual, entry-combo-exit signal. That is chosen in the upper image (without combo).
11:45<@planetmaker>Casual, I suggest you actually *try* it. And / or read up on signaling :)
11:45<@planetmaker>https://wiki.openttd.org/Signals http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=6
11:46<@planetmaker>are both good reading
11:46<_dp_>dunno, it's not that much extra tracks to do roro imo
11:46<@planetmaker>_dp_, not much. But an occasional additional arrival per year might be the difference you see :)
11:46<@planetmaker>add to that the slightly lower payment when travel is slightly slower...
11:46<Casual>Ahhh, the description of the image says "Simple terminus stations: the left one is using block signals, the right one path signals."
11:47<@planetmaker>yes
11:47<Casual>So I thought these were just two standard block signals
11:47<@planetmaker>nope :)
11:47<_dp_>nah, that wasn't because of additional arrival for sure
11:47<Casual>But now that i look at them they don't like block at all :)
11:47<Casual>Okay that's that then, thanks
11:47<@planetmaker>Casual, there's nearly no reason to use standard block signals *anywhere*
11:49<Casual>Too used to TTD I guess
11:49<@planetmaker>people still play that? :-O
11:51<Casual>We did, 20 years ago :P
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12:01<@Alberth>moin
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12:08<@planetmaker>\o
12:12<@Alberth>does coop use path signals everywhere?
12:12<@Alberth>I noticed trains sometimes stop for no good reason with PBS, due to other moving trains
12:13<@Alberth>could be a configuration issue though
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12:28<Wolf01>o/
12:31<Eearslya>meow
12:32<V453000>Alberth: coop uses path signals everywhere to identify who is hopeless noob
12:33<@Alberth>:D
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12:33<@Alberth>you did not pass the test, do not go past start, do not become member :p
12:34<V453000>membership is ways later, but this is sometimes seen on the welcome server
12:34<V453000>when learning to build properly this is the first thing to get rid of
12:34<@Alberth>hmm, /me is not at the first stage then :p
12:35<Eearslya>^
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12:35<V453000>yeah refusal is what usually gives the hopeless status :P
12:35<Eearslya>Then again, I've never made anything close to a rail system yet; more like just tiny rail system-ettes
12:36<@Alberth>although I did switch to entry/exit signals at some station where the additional delay was becoming a problem :)
12:36<@Alberth>so there may be still hope for me :)
12:36<Eearslya>I still don't understand those signals..
12:37<V453000>a little hope :P
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12:39<@Alberth>ah well, I'll stay being amazed what you can build at coop :)
12:40<@Alberth>Eearslya: it's a big game, don't expect to get it all within the next 10 years
12:41<V453000>its not like you cant learn it just by playing there ;)
12:41<Eearslya>How much income/year does coop usually make?
12:42<@Alberth>Eearslya: wrong question, money is irrelevant :)
12:42<V453000>answer is shitload though
12:42<V453000>when you transport gigantic amounts of things, income just comes by itself
12:43<Eearslya>Then what's the goal of coop? Super fancy transport systems just for the sake of it?
12:43<@Alberth>it's easy to get more than you can spend, at which point the total amount is not a useful number any more
12:44<V453000>kind of for the sake of it, but "just build it huge with a ton of trains" is a lot more complex goal than it sounds
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12:44<V453000>there of course do exist some records like max number of trains or max transported count
12:44<@Alberth>many trains is easy, but to keep it all flowing is the challenge
12:44<V453000>but playing for those goals is not every game :)
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27448 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-16 18:45:09 +0100 )
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
12:45<@Alberth>yay, another translated string
12:45<Eearslya>Which max trains? Since it's configurable..
12:46<V453000>as many as you can
12:46<V453000>#openttdcoop Records: Clients: 26 | Trains: 2666 (PSG#219) - 3000 (PZG#21) - ( 5000 (PZG#2013) logic net) | Single cargo type output: 204,614 (PZG#2013) | World Pop: 6,150,671 (PSG#201) | PublicServer:Archive - Hall of Fame - #openttdcoop wiki - http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Hall_of_Fame
12:47<Eearslya>Oh, I thought you actually meant so many trains the game simply would refuse to make one more
12:47<@Alberth>coop is playing together with 10 people or so, so it's 10 times bigger than anything you can achieve as single person
12:47<V453000>Eearslya: 5000 is the maximum :)
12:47<V453000>Alberth: I actually played PZG2013 alone 95% of the time :)
12:48<Eearslya>Oh, well then. What's coop map size?
12:48<@Alberth>woow!
12:48<V453000>512x512 or equivalents like 256x1024
12:48<V453000>OR 256x256 for fun :)
12:48<Eearslya>And you fit 5k trains on that..wow.
12:49<@Alberth>finding a tile without track is .... a challenge there :)
12:49<V453000>it is kind of a special game so you could say some of them are stopped, but still :)
12:49<V453000>that is why the other records of 3000 are also relevant and not directly overwritten
12:49<@Alberth>Eearslya: you can donwload the final games if you want to have a look
12:50<V453000>in fact pzg21 with 3000 AsiaStars could probably handle 5000 well-accelerating trains
12:50<V453000>which also kind of shows how subjective even the train number is
12:50<Eearslya>Now I get why you guys don't play on larger maps; you wouldn't be able to make enough vehicles for it XD
12:50<V453000>yeah there is no reason to play on bigger maps :)
12:51<@Alberth>you just get longer stretches of boring straight track :)
12:51<Eearslya>Welp, I gotta take a math exam; gimme 30 mins or so
12:51<V453000>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2013/08/06/dont-try-this-at-home-prozone-game-2013/
12:57<@Alberth>ha, I tried that once in my debug build, it was veeery slow :)
12:59<V453000>haha
12:59<V453000>I mainly like how all trains make decisions at the same time so it slows down, then runs faster, then slows, then faster, ...
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12:59<@peter1138>noobzone
13:00<@Alberth>should try it on a non-debug build :)
13:01<frosch123>Alberth: it's amazing how fast ottd starts when not using a debug build :p
13:01<V453000>XD
13:02<frosch123>i had an item on my todo list for a long time to finally make ottd start somewhat faster
13:02<frosch123>then somehow i made a non-debug build for something
13:02<@Alberth>item done! :)
13:08<@peter1138>heh
13:08<@peter1138>it can still be slow
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13:27<Eearslya>meow
13:27<frosch123>quak
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13:29<Eearslya>Ohai; I put a couple things on FlySpray
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13:44<Wolf01>bah, i had to move out a spider, mom was terrified
13:44<frosch123>you could have eaten it instead
13:44<Wolf01>i'm not a frog
13:46<argoneus>you are homo
13:48<Wolf01>no i'm not, i'm a werewerewolf or a werewolf^2
13:49<argoneus>wolves can be homo too
13:49<frosch123>were²wolf or werewolf² ?
13:49<Wolf01>no, i have no sex
13:49<Wolf01>like angels
13:49<Wolf01>:D
13:49<argoneus>then you aren't a wolf
13:49<argoneus>do you think there are feminist wolves
13:49<argoneus>that get triggered by the patriarchy
13:50<V453000>WTF I look away for a minute and chat turns into wtf
13:50<argoneus>for ripping all the poor deer to shreds
13:50<frosch123>argoneus: stop eating red meat. it cause brain cancer
13:50<argoneus>frosch123: i hope more people listen to this
13:50<argoneus>then i can buy it for cheaper
13:51<argoneus>and laugh at them
13:51<argoneus>while they smoke which increases the chance of cancer much more
13:51<Wolf01>when you'll find that wolves are lead by females, you'll understand that they don't need feminism
13:51<argoneus>Wolf01: oh yeah
13:51<argoneus>the "alpha female"
13:52<argoneus>is there an easy way to print what's in the current session? so I can review the inserts/deletes before comitting them
13:52<Wolf01>make a patch?
13:52<frosch123>it's called "diff"
13:52<argoneus>oh fuck
13:52<argoneus>wrong channel
13:53<frosch123>V453000: see, that's the reason
13:53<V453000>gg
13:54<argoneus>dont make me build a railroad around yours
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14:09<andythenorth>o/
14:13<frosch123>did you clean the kitchen saturday night?
14:14<andythenorth>enough :)
14:14<frosch123>i didn't; it starts getting critical
14:14<@Alberth>kitchen threatens to leave?
14:15<V453000>XD
14:15<andythenorth>is it a Withnail & I level yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6R9fY8lfGo
14:17<V453000>good stuff
14:19<_dp_>frosch123, btw, I've updated my patch, it didn't go exactly as planned though :)
14:23<andythenorth>so
14:24<Wolf01>o/
14:25*andythenorth learning about cocoa beans
14:26<@Alberth>learning something new every day
14:27<andythenorth>yup
14:27<andythenorth>antidote to the news
14:27<Wolf01>you are learning how to get cocoa from them?
14:28<andythenorth>only enough to put them in FIRS :P
14:33*andythenorth figuring out which cash crops for the Hopes and Impediments economy
14:33<andythenorth>cocoa, peanuts, palm oil seem to be the most consistently produced in the countries I’m looking at
14:33<andythenorth>there’s already rubber, fruit, coffee; I think I can remove coffee
14:34<andythenorth>they all just go plantation -> port
14:34<andythenorth>which is ok, but ‘moar’ of these is not better
14:34<Eearslya>Whoops. Kinda left my game open on fast forward while at college.
14:35<Eearslya>Bright side is, I have $30mil
14:36<@Alberth>and your company obviously survived :)
14:37<@Alberth>and possibly you have run out of new vehicle types?
14:37<Eearslya>Surprisingly, my trains doing nothing but transporting iron back and forth were making $700k a year, so yeah, I survived XD
14:38<Eearslya>As for vehicle types..Well, it's 2052
14:38<@peter1138>congratulations, you completed the game without playing.
14:39<Eearslya>With 4 buses and 2 6-long trains
14:39<Eearslya>Which are all screaming at me to be replaced
14:40<@Alberth>I hope you have a save game from before you left :)
14:40<Eearslya>I..don't think I do XD
14:40<@Alberth>ah well, time to start a new one :p
14:41<Eearslya>I wonder how far it would have gone if the game didn't show that 'congratulations' screen at 2050
14:42<Eearslya>It was only maybe 1952 when I left
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14:45<@Alberth>that's easy to calculate :)
14:45<@Alberth>https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_gameplay#How_long_is_a_game_day_in_real_time.3F
14:45<@Alberth>hi zii
14:46<@Alberth>*zuu
14:46<@Alberth>argh :(
14:46<Zuu>_dp_: Hello Alberthii :-)
14:46<Zuu>Oh. sorry _dp_
14:46<Zuu>But hello to you too.
14:47<@Alberth>:)
14:47<_dp_>hi)
14:47<_dp_>I've updated my patch ;)
14:47<Zuu>Yep, and I'm sorry that my first remark is missing { and } on some if statements.
14:48<Zuu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptetqoz97
14:49<Zuu>But that is easily fixable in my local patch copy with --unified=15 :-)
14:49<_dp_>hm, I remember someone removing those {} in one of my patches xD
14:49<Zuu>Our rules can be seen here: https://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style#Control_flow
14:49<Eearslya>oh hello, you commented on my patch
14:50<Eearslya>dammit, that means I have to get up
14:50<Zuu>This is correct: if (foo) bar();
14:50<Zuu>But as soon as bar() get on its own line, { } is required by the coding style.
14:51<Eearslya>Alberth: how dare you make me get up and be productive today
14:52<@Alberth>maybe you should not have submitted a patch? :p
14:52<Eearslya>You're the one who asked for this one!
14:52<@Alberth>but euhm, feel free to take a day off if you want :)
14:53<@Alberth>well, yeah, but I won't play the game for the next 3 days :)
14:53<Eearslya>Why's that?
14:53<_dp_>ah, ok, completely forgot about that :(
14:53<@Alberth>this real-life thing called 'work' :p
14:54<@Alberth>very bad invention, but it was done before I was born :(
14:55<Eearslya>that sounds horrible
14:56<Eearslya>Pandora is go, now I can code
14:56<@Alberth>you get used to it :p
14:59<Eearslya>Widget IDs can be 0, right?
15:00<Eearslya>That's the only reason I use -1
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15:05<@Alberth>yes, the value itself is not the problem, the problem is lack of defining what -1 means
15:05<fjb>Moin
15:05<Eearslya>Right, just making sure that -1 is even necessary
15:05<@Alberth>hihi fjb
15:05<fjb>Moin Alberth
15:06<Zuu>_dp_: It happens me that I forget about putting a space after 'if' or 'for' in OpenTTD code. At first iteration ofa patch it is often easy to check for your usual mistakes, but then when other devs suggest changes, it is easy to forget to check for your habits. :-)
15:08<@Alberth>good night
15:08<Eearslya>But I just replied!
15:09<Eearslya>And it's noon!
15:09<@Alberth>I wish it was :p
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15:09<Zuu>_dp_: Two of your added methods are missing doxygen comments.
15:09<_dp_>Zuu, yeah, exactly xD And I'm also so used to code in python with pep8 linter)
15:10<_dp_>Zuu, well, I didn't know what to put in it except for just repeating their names %)
15:12<Zuu>Well its the coding style. And it will also document what the parameters does.
15:12<_dp_>function I was splitting didn't have any comment in a first place :P
15:13<Zuu>And it might be required for methods to end up on our online docs: http://docs.openttd.org/
15:17<Zuu>+ * Calculates amount of active stations in Tz0.
15:17<Zuu> <---- Tz0 ?
15:18<_dp_>idk how else to call squared_town_zone_radius[0]
15:18<_dp_>saw Tz0 - Tz4 somewhere
15:20<Zuu>"in range of town"? or "in squared town zone radius"?
15:22<_dp_>there are 5 town zones
15:22<_dp_>guess I can call it HZB_TOWN_EDGE
15:23<Zuu>I mean the function name is fine. But Tz0 in that comment doesn't tell much. Looking for Tz0 in the code base give me only one match - your comment.
15:24<_dp_>Calculates amount of active stations in range of town (HZB_TOWN_EDGE).
15:24<_dp_>how's that?
15:26<_dp_>or mb (zone 0) would be better, hzb seems kinda houses-related
15:27<Zuu>The HZB_TOWN_EDGE or house zones is a part of the code I never looked at before. The part of the sentence up to '(' works fine. The reference doesn't say me anything, but could be because thats unknown territory to me.
15:29<Zuu>OpenTTD is about 250 000 lines of code according to https://www.openhub.net/p/openttd :-)
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15:32<_dp_>Zuu, yeah, and I meddled a lot with town zones so usually want to know exact zone number)
15:32<_dp_>while "range of town" says nothing to me xD
15:32<Zuu>:-)
15:33<_dp_>ha, "range of town" has 0 matches in code as well))
15:33<Zuu>Well, HZB_TOWN_EDGE is a lot better than Tz0 as it have matches in the code.
15:34<_dp_>let's settle with it then
15:35<Zuu>Sure
15:35<_dp_>there also is GetTownRadiusGroup function but it's not like it helps to decide))
15:36<_dp_>it mixes all possible namings, HouseZonesBits in return type, TownRadiusGroup in name and "town zone" in doxygen %)
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15:39<andythenorth>hmm
15:39<andythenorth>minimetro keeps beating me :P
15:41<Zuu>It is good at eventually making you lose
15:41<Zuu>It never fails at that.
15:41<Zuu>A bit like tetris :-)
15:42<andythenorth>I bought the full version
15:42<andythenorth>1558 is my high score in New York
15:42<Zuu>I only played Alpha 8-13 or so.
15:43<Zuu>I do play my share bit of ticket to ride though.
15:45-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:45<Zuu>I think my high score is 219 or so.
15:51<andythenorth>eh well
15:51<andythenorth>so I’ve swapped grain to maize
15:51<andythenorth>in this FIRS economy
15:51<andythenorth>so do I swap the grain mill to maize mill?
15:52<andythenorth>or use the food processor instead?
15:52<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#grain_mill
15:52<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#food_processor
15:53<Zuu>I don't know. I never woried about designing industry chains.
15:54<_dp_>Zuu, I updated patch with more comments)
15:57<andythenorth>maize mill http://www.africa-do-business.com/maize-milling.html
15:57<andythenorth>will do
15:57<frosch123>andythenorth: make it a popcorn cooker
15:58<andythenorth>ha ha
15:58<andythenorth>NewToyland
15:58<Eearslya>And then add a theatre building in cities that accept popcorn
15:58<Zuu>_dp_: On line 137 of your patch there is white space in your indentation.
15:59<Zuu>s/white space/spaces/g
15:59<_dp_>dammit)
15:59<Eearslya>blasphemy
16:09<andythenorth>“# - do that after snakebite, the CPP templating doesn't handle economy variations either”
16:09<andythenorth>bah
16:10<Zuu>UpdateTownGrowth is supposed to be the new UpdateTownGrowRate? Why is it calling UpdateTownGrowthRate() at the beginning while old UpdateTownGrowth did this at the end? And possible not always.
16:10<Zuu>Though there is probably more questions to figure out. But it is getting too late in the evening to cover it all.
16:11*andythenorth does not fight FIRS more today
16:11*andythenorth does play a game
16:11<_dp_>Zuu, I changed it this way so it would always calculate growth rate
16:11<_dp_>unlike old one
16:12<Zuu>I though the idea was that only when GS change growth rate back to normal, it should always be calculated. But the fact that was is not always for normal town update is part of the game mechanics.
16:13<_dp_>for game mechanics it doesn't matter what is growth rate when town is not growing
16:15<Zuu>On line 3158 of the old source, it says: if (n == 0 && !Chance16(1, 12)) return;
16:15<Zuu>As far as I understand that part, if there is no stations in range of town, and by random, don't update growth rate.
16:16<_dp_>it means if no stations have chance to grow anyway
16:17<_dp_>again, if it wasn't lucky and town is not growing, growth rate didn't matter
16:19<Zuu>Ah well yes. Later in code, you only set TOWN_IS_GROWING if you are lucky and have no stations.
16:20<_dp_>yeah, that part is mostly same as it was, I just separated growth rate and growth flag calculations
16:22<_dp_>and took care to always keep valid growth rate
16:23<_dp_>or, well, somewhat valid, but that's story for another patch xD
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16:26<Zuu>Oh well theretically you could have an impact by computing the growth rate before " if (_settings_game.economy.town_growth_rate == 0 && t->fund_buildings_months == 0) return;
16:26<Zuu> ", but on the other hand doing counter scaling always means it will also give slighly different behaviour from before. But this not being a calculator means it is probably not too bad. :-)
16:27<Zuu>Good night for today
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16:28<_dp_>gn
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19:02<drac_boy>hi
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19:22<Wolf01>'night
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19:41<drac_boy>hi flherne? :)
19:42<FLHerne>drac_boy: Morning
19:42<drac_boy>its night :P
19:42<drac_boy>hows you anyhow?
19:42<FLHerne>Alright
19:42<FLHerne>Fiddling with laptop atm, new Linux kernel makes it overheat
19:43<FLHerne>Hopefully I can pin it down enough to know who to moan at
19:43<drac_boy>mm what kind of laptop?
19:44<FLHerne>Thinkpad X201
19:45<FLHerne>Oldish, but it's solid and reasonably quick for its age
19:47<drac_boy>hmm I dunno but to our own I guess after all :)
19:48<FLHerne>Well, you can't get newer 12" laptops with a good keyboard and 5 USB ports :P
19:48<FLHerne>Counting the expresscard slot
19:49<drac_boy>if it was a standard laptop I would say maybe but seeing its one of these sim-down thing the cpu is crap for it ... thats why I dunno after all
19:49<drac_boy>sim=slim*
19:49<drac_boy>but either way hope you figure out something tho
19:51<FLHerne>Huh? It's an i5-M580 - 2.6GHz (3.3GHz turbo) dual-core with HT
19:52<FLHerne>Of course, the CPU being quite a bit faster than you'd typically get in a 12" laptop doesn't help with the temperature :P
19:53<drac_boy>its not just the clock .. the tdp is a bit out of whack for such a shell :)
19:53<FLHerne>But still, with linux 4.2.5 it idles about 35°C, 4.3.0 it idles about 55°C
19:53<FLHerne>Presumably the frequency/power-scaling is borked
19:54<FLHerne>Ah, I think I misunderstood "seeing its one of these sim-down thing the cpu is crap for it"
19:56<FLHerne>Yes, the TDP is rather high for something this size. OTOH, it's actually faster than an X240 from three years later, because they've got painfully slow U-series processors
19:57<drac_boy>well the math isn't difficult .. a low power cpu running at full clock or a high power cpu being constantly throttled ... remind me why I only touch older laptops period .. but like I probably said - to our own :)
19:58<drac_boy>some of the dell laptops were really crappy...ran slower than a P-M cpu even although theres an "intel i5" sticker on -_-
20:02<FLHerne>I've not noticed this one running hot enough to be throttled, at constant full load it peaks at about 65-70°C
20:02<FLHerne>Does lack a decent GPU though, the IGP is hopeless
20:02<FLHerne>Despite that I've given it 8GB of RAM, an SSD, 3G and a couple of spare batteries, not planning to replace it anytime soon
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20:11<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: the 500's are going even more on my nerves than the old forum message about nightly backup...
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 17 00:00:37 2015