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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-17

---Logopened Tue Nov 17 00:00:37 2015
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03:12<Wolf01>o/
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04:54<fjb>´Moin
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05:09<andythenorth>much regret
05:10<V453000>what up andythenorth
05:10<andythenorth>"# !! this will need to handle economy variations also...might be non-viable in current form"
05:10<andythenorth>comments from my code :P
05:11<andythenorth>when you expect something to just work, and then you look why, and then you find your own comments about unfinished code :P
05:11<andythenorth>and then a 5 minute thing is a 50 minute thing
05:11<andythenorth>:P
05:11<andythenorth>that
05:12<V453000>yay
05:12<V453000>fuck code, draw pixelz to be licked
05:16*andythenorth shuns the pixles
05:16<V453000>I honestly kind of miss pixel drawing but time is enemy
05:19<andythenorth>I kind of miss CGI
05:19<andythenorth>the power to generate basic forms, and light them
05:19<andythenorth>I was slow though, I never found a tool where I got on with the mesh modelling
05:19<andythenorth>so I used to draw splines in illustrator and extrude them
05:22<V453000>hm :)
05:22<V453000>I guess I was just nostalgically looking at old coop games with old graphics too much yesterday
05:26<andythenorth>V453000: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7529/Amber%20Beacon%2012.mov
05:26<andythenorth>also https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7530/Grab%20Out.mov
05:27<andythenorth>14 years ago, nearly exactly :P
05:27<V453000>serioze lens flare
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05:27<andythenorth>all about the lighting for me :P
05:27<andythenorth>best looped :P
05:28<V453000>well nowadays things are more fun :P
05:28<V453000>did this recently https://eu1.factorio.com/assets//img/blog/fff-111-flame-steel-furnace.gif
05:29<andythenorth>that grab animation was probably several days of work for me then, and the animation was still crappy
05:29<andythenorth>the weighting is all wrong
05:29<V453000>should be fun when combined with this https://eu1.factorio.com/assets//img/blog/fff-108-smoke-02.gif
05:29<V453000>well animation always takes time to be done properly
05:30<andythenorth>ho the furnace is nice
05:31*andythenorth now considering creating an animated movie again
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05:32<V453000>FIRS = each industry is a chapter of the story?
05:32<V453000>make all chains running to uncover the whole story?
05:33<V453000>you could probably make a HD movie in x4 zoom
05:33<V453000>666 GB newGRF?
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05:33<V453000>it is a great plan andythenorth, you should go make it happen
05:34<andythenorth>I could just make the movie, and stop OpenTTD stuff? o_O
05:36<V453000>it will probably be train porn or industrial machinery NSFW stuff, you can put that into OpenTTD as well
05:36<V453000>mayhaps lego wtf
05:42<andythenorth>it will mostly be at night, minimal lighting
05:42<andythenorth>to avoiding modelling stuff
05:43<andythenorth>so what is the cool kids using for CGI now? Blender?
05:44<andythenorth>I can’t use max, and I won’t use maya
05:44*andythenorth wonders if Cinema 4D is still bonkers
05:45<andythenorth>wow, £2600
06:01<V453000>blender is usable but be ready to get your nerves demolished many times
06:02<V453000>max is kind of stable, many general things are worse than blender, but it has many other extra functions ... and if you want to do basic-ish simulations of all kinds, blender is better
06:03<V453000>maya is getting better and better with each year, lately a lot of modelling tools were added, max is probably more general but maya is probably way more worth the moneyz
06:03<V453000>cinema 4D is great for motion graphics, especially if you link it with after effects
06:05<V453000>probably just go for blender, unless you want big sophisticated render trees and dont mind figuring out a wtf issue here and there, it is best
06:05<V453000>price 0 makes a lot of it :)
06:05<andythenorth>yeah :P
06:05<andythenorth>I can buy after effects instead :P
06:06<V453000>yayz
06:06<V453000>I kind of miss 3 things in max
06:06<V453000>the insane amount of super useful modelling tools, modelling in modifier layers, and perfect control of automated rendering and many options with it
06:07<V453000>blender modelling is kind of quick, but many of the advanced tools are not there at all, which is a gigantic shame
06:07<V453000>modelling modifier layers just add so much depth to workflow, you can enable them or disable them at any point and once you know what you are doing, they can be really powerful
06:08<V453000>you can kind of create versions for all things without saving 1298342987 scene files
06:08<V453000>and the automated rendering in blender is just complete horseshit
06:09<V453000>I guess you are expected to use scripting languages and shit with blender, linux logic
06:09*andythenorth just wants nice lighting :P
06:26<V453000>go blend shit
06:26<V453000>cycles renderer is really good
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11:06<Wolf01>mmmh, moving with vectors scares me
11:06<Wolf01>i got the idea, i know how vectors work
11:07<Wolf01>i can't apply it to a game XD
11:15<andythenorth>?
11:24<Wolf01>also "right" seem to not be a valid direction, the object bounches up and down, tries to go left, but right is unknown
11:26<Wolf01>my fault, wrong range of values
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11:33<Wolf01>o/
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11:43<@Alberth>moin
11:43<napoleon>Hi, I have basic question. I run OpenTTD using Windows and want to add some newgrfs to game, and I downloaded *.tar.gz files. But all downloaded by game newgrfs are *.tar files. Can I use *.tar.gz files? Or how I can plug it to game on Windows?
11:44<@Alberth>you have to g(un)zip the .tar.gz files to .tar
11:44<@Alberth>or unpack to directory structure
11:44<@Alberth>as for proper placement, have a look at the readme file, it explains it all
11:45<@Alberth>(I don't have windows, no idea where it is supposed to go there)
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11:47<Eearslya>meow
11:48<@Alberth>meep meep
11:48<napoleon>I can ungzip all of newgrfs and zip in different *.tar files, if it is right way to plug it... Perhaps there is a more appropriate way to do it.
11:49<@Alberth>napoleon: gzip compresses bla to bla.gz (only adding .gz extension), and thus also foo.tar to foo.tar.gz
11:50<@Alberth>gunzip works the other way around (just stripping .gz)
11:50<@Alberth>however, on windows, archiving tools may try to be smart, and also unpack the tar file :(
11:51<@Alberth>I don't know what "zip" you have, but "tar" files are made with "tar", normally
11:52<@Alberth>again, windows tools may try to be smart here, and be very unpredictable
11:52<Eearslya>7-zip master race
11:53<@Alberth>"tar" just merges a directory with files to a single file, it does NOT compress at all
11:57<Mazur>tar has built in compression routines.
11:58<@Alberth>gnu tar has, bsd tar has not
11:58<Mazur>tar czvf uses zip, tar xjvf bz2, tar cJvf xz.
11:58<Mazur>Ah, ok.
12:00<Mazur>Haven't touched a BSD in yonkers.
12:03<@Alberth>the trouble is that all windows tools combine tar and compression in one, so on windows, tar is extremely weird :)
12:37<Mazur>Of course, you're talking about Micro-SoftInTheBrain.
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>napoleon: you don't need to keep it in a .tar, it's just for convenience. you can also have all the files in a subdirectory
12:38<Wolf01>hey they improved a lot, at least now you can mount iso images directly
12:46<@Alberth>I tried windows a few times at a laptop this summer, but it's a big maze to me, they are experts in creating error messages without telling what is actually wrong
12:46<@Alberth>not to mention "updates" take a large part of a day
12:47<@peter1138>Only if there's a massive backlog.
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>updates are particularly annoying if you use the system infrequently
12:48<Wolf01>the only thing i hate about windows 10 is that the interface is really incoherent and it has a lot of redundant things (2 control panels, 2 image viewers, 2 calculators...)
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>you boot it up and it takes 3 hours to get to a usable state
12:48<@Alberth>but even then, the program must be awfully stupid to need hours for an update
12:48<@Alberth>note that it was at a university, loads of bandwidth there
12:49<@Alberth>Wolf01: the interface has always been inconsistent as far as i know
12:49<Wolf01>not much like now
12:50<@Alberth>ok, could be
12:50<Wolf01>there is a mix of flat, black&white, 3D icons
12:50<@Alberth>lol
12:51<Wolf01>you can't understand what window has the focus (this will be addressed in the next patch) because the window title is gray
12:52<@Alberth>still no focus follows mouse? :)
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i never actually used win10
12:52<Wolf01>no, but now you can scroll a window which doesn't have focus
12:52<Wolf01>which is nice if you are chatting and browsing/reading
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>mouse-focus is a feature i immediately miss
12:53<__ln__>and more specifically, you can scroll whatever component is under the mouse, not just the window.
12:53<@Alberth>ah, and move a popup below the popup with focus, which needs a value of the window below the lower popup?
12:53<Wolf01>oh, there is the mouse-focus in the ease of access features
12:53<@Alberth>revolution!
12:53<Wolf01>but i didn't like it as it is different from x-mouse
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: but does it allow windows to have focus which are not on top?
12:54<Wolf01>or at least that was the feel
12:54<__ln__>there's another huge advancement in windows 10... freely resizeable command prompt window!
12:54<Wolf01>eh, yes, that too
12:55<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, iirc it brings on top the window you are hovering
12:55<@Alberth>just 20 years until realizing command-line does have its uses :p
12:55<@Alberth>ieks
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12:56<Wolf01>oh, they also added multiple desktops
12:57<Wolf01>never used it :P
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i hardly ever use that on linux
12:58<Wolf01>with 2 monitors i don't find it useful
12:59*__ln__ has 3 monitors
12:59*Wolf01 doesn't have space for a third one
13:00<napoleon>Thanks. So, I just ungzip *.tar.gz files each in its dir, and move to content_download subdirs.
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13:00<__ln__>one problem though, OpenTTD doesn't work too well on 2 or 3 monitors.
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>napoleon: no, don't manually put stuff in content_download
13:01<napoleon>And it is work. xxx/x.grf works like xxx.tar/x.grf
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>put it into the appropriate directory in the parent directory
13:01<napoleon>But xxx.tar.gz/x.grf doesn't work on Windows.
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't work on any other platform either
13:02<napoleon>I mean eg content_download/newgrf/xxx/x.grf
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13:03<napoleon>it's strange there is no support of gzip in Windows
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's not strange if you ever followed the policies of microsoft...
13:04<napoleon>And I can't rehash *.tar and *.tar.gz with some content
13:06<napoleon>Microsoft don't give rights to use GNU unzip? or haven't it?
13:07<+glx>just use 7zip to open every thing
13:08<__ln__>napoleon: MSIE can decompress gzip for obvious reasons. Dunno if you can make it decompress local files though.
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13:15<napoleon>I have no problem to unzip or zip files with another soft, but why OpenTTD can't detect tar.gz
13:15<napoleon>It just isn't comfortable
13:16<@Alberth>it opens the grf file to read while playing, so it needs an uncompressed version
13:17<napoleon>So problem is in realtime decompression.
13:17<napoleon>But *NIX and linux can do it.
13:17<napoleon>Versions of OTTD
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, they cannot
13:18<@Alberth>openttd does random seeking
13:18<@Alberth>not only from start to end, as all archive tools do
13:24<@peter1138>It are wet.
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15:13<drac_boy>hi
15:22<andythenorth>peter1138: it are Barney out there
15:23<frosch123>english only :p
15:25<drac_boy>any uk train person here? just curious
15:26<frosch123>eddi
15:31*andythenorth keeps very very quiet
15:35<@Alberth>you?
15:36<andythenorth>you?
15:37<@Alberth>I mean drac_boy
15:37<drac_boy>either way one of the few things I was wondering about is if uk had any kind of regularity in a branchline thats worked by a tender locomotive but often with short trains (say two or three bogie coaches)
15:37<drac_boy>alberth..nope...canada here :)
15:37<V453000>SUP HUMANZ BRING THA NOIZ
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15:40<andythenorth>drac_boy: you want proof of this, or to know if it was common?
15:41<drac_boy>latter
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15:51<andythenorth>have you tried google?
15:51<andythenorth>o_O
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15:53<NGC3982>Oh, you guys talk.
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16:05<drac_boy>andy that always come back with model product shots for some reason (unless the spider is not understanding what eg "ivatt 4MT branchline train" means)
16:07<andythenorth>it’s because you’re using branchline
16:07<andythenorth>so you get bachman
16:09<andythenorth>my guess: you’d mostly find tank engines, because tender-first running was not the regular rule
16:09<andythenorth>and branch lines don’t have turntables at the terminus
16:09<drac_boy>funny thing is almost none of these are bachmann...they're hornby 0_o
16:10<andythenorth>I could find you pictures of tender engines on local trains, but eh
16:10<andythenorth>I dunno
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16:12<drac_boy>yeah thanks anyway .. and btw andy not quite related but the Black Five did turn up at least twice with only one single noncorridor coach (the photographer suspected the depot was really short on power that day)
16:12<drac_boy>talk about an odd sight :)
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16:16<drac_boy>oh, if anyone want to get lost in a sea of turnouts then feel free to walk around here :p https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Frankfurt_Hbf_Gleise.jpg/1024px-Frankfurt_Hbf_Gleise.jpg
16:17<frosch123>it takes ages to drive into that station
16:18<frosch123>once i missed a train, and though "let's go via frankfurt, i may catch up" :p
16:18<drac_boy>heh let me guess, you missed it there too? :P
16:19<frosch123>i got the next one, which also drove by my regular station
16:19<frosch123>so, i spend some time inside a train, instead of waiting for the same one
16:20<drac_boy>I see :)
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16:23<drac_boy>that photo does remind me tho..I forgot the class # (remind me to check for that magazine later) but db had been retiring a lot of a particular diesel locomotive nicknamed "pigs" (due to their exhaust apparently) due to the ever-ongoing introduction of dmu/emu sets
16:23<drac_boy>out of the 140+ before now only <60 are left and still dwindling :-s
16:24<drac_boy>at least I haven't heard anything new about the axle problems their s-bahn trains were having
16:25<frosch123>i only know a train named pig-snout
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16:25<frosch123>but it is ancient
16:25<frosch123>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggonfabrik_Wismar_Typ_Hannover
16:25<drac_boy>heh pigsnout..that only can be the little VT133? :)
16:25<drac_boy>figured :p
16:28<drac_boy>frosch if you want small without the snout .. there is always VT95 .. as I recall a few are still running in scheduled service outside germany too
16:29<drac_boy>at least I think they had much better ride than the so-called uk versions (and you wonder why the uk ones had strange nicknames)
16:33<drac_boy>anyway have fun as I'm going off for now :)
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause>i was actually never in frankfurt...
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, i was in the other frankfurt :p
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>and i didn't go there by train
16:38<__ln__>i was in both
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>some headlines genuinely scare me...
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>"English and French sing Marseillaise in Wembley"... that's certainly not the most peaceful song they could be singing...
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16:53<Mazur>National anthems rarely are.
16:57<__ln__>we need a statistics for that
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18:26<Wolf01>'night
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18:51<drac_boy>hi for a bit
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18:59<drac_boy>hi sim-a12
18:59<drac_boy>hows you?
19:01<sim-al2>I'm good
19:02<drac_boy>what doing?
19:02<sim-al2>Just got home, good timing too as the weather's about to get bad
19:03<drac_boy>heh ok
19:03<drac_boy>btw I kinda got a bit buried in other things recently..you recall what we two were talking about yesterday?
19:03<sim-al2>Crazy winds, they say we might get a couple inches of rain
19:04<sim-al2>Uhhh I remember the Feather River Canyon
19:04<drac_boy>oh yeah
19:11<drac_boy>sim-a12 if you want to know where you should keep your mouth shut for a short time then maybe this tunnel would do that :p https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e8/2b/e5/e82be567c23c3dfcf9b6a0a2b13a3ffc.jpg at least these diesels get their air from just below the chassis where its cooler (if you see the curved-top bumpout on the sides)
19:12<sim-al2>Heh, some steam-operated tunnels had a form of supplemental oxygen because the smoke was so bad
19:14<sim-al2>THe Southern Pacific had EMD develop the Tunnel Motors, SD45T and SD40T with a modified radiator section because they had overheating problems on the long drags
19:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 yeah one of the tunnel in colorado actually had a forced blower assembly at one end to make quicker recycle of the air ... till it was obsoleted by eventual tunnel reconstruction to accept higher doubledeck wagons (which meant they also had better natural ventilation causing the blower to be scrapped)
19:15<sim-al2>In practice, the modified radiators didn't help so much in the tunnels themselves, but they apparently cooled better in the gaps between tunnels which helped reduce the number of engine shutdowns
19:15<drac_boy>sim-a12 don't forget that part of the air intake redesign on the SD40 was because "stubborn" SP bought a few uboats and ran them hard at low speed with no overheat shutdowns .. made emd rethink things :)
19:15<sim-al2>BNSF still has one at the summit of Stevens Pass
19:15<sim-al2>*a blower cooling system for their tunnel
19:16<drac_boy>this was the same SP who was tired of only "1500hp" and went oversea with these massive krauss-maffi diesels ... reliability was a bit of an issue but it did its job in causing the usa locomotives to get more hp if you put it that way :)
19:16<drac_boy>both 4000hp (or at least for the second version) and diesel-hydraulic which were both new concepts to usa at the time as far as I recall
19:17<sim-al2>Yeah, if the SD45 had been later and the mainteance crews slightly more accepting of a non-EMD they might have stuck around for a lot longer
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19:18<sim-al2>Diesel hydraulic was practically non-existant, all the diesel locomotives and even their gasoline powered predecessors were electric transmission
19:20<drac_boy>sim-a12 also I forgot where I found it but I still recall from memory that canada for a very short time (specifically in montreal area) had a lone german-designed diesel-hydraulic shunter locomotive (2+crank+2 axle assembly for the siderods .. but I imagine the outter axles had some side play to them due to the curvations tho)
19:21<sim-al2>There were a few switching types, GMD GMDH-1, for example, and the Budd RDCs had a similar twin-engine hydraulic tranmissions setup
19:21<drac_boy>ah well it looks alike to this one http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1411/724746325_2e35f56d4b.jpg except for having knuckle couplers instead
19:22<drac_boy>it shows that it wasn't only usa who "borrowed" oversea trains after all tho :)
19:22<drac_boy>oh yeah I almost forgot..there was this trainset that had good service life tho..let me find its name again one sec
19:24<sim-al2>Nah, most countries have done that at some point, and often locomotives are exported to other countries when they get retired, the GEs running in South America
19:24<drac_boy>sim-a12 what you think of this trainset "at home"? http://www.bahnbilder.de/1024/ram-tee-i-502-am-387435.jpg
19:25<sim-al2>TEE set?
19:25<sim-al2>Looks like a E-unit really, although I see a conductor compartment at the rear
19:26<drac_boy>yep..now guess where a few of them end up at for some time? https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3272/5771964271_b4ffeace94_b.jpg although I should note it would seem later on they sidelined the power units and simply ram them with pushpull-ready emd geep's instead (mechanical upkeep issues for non-usa engines maybe?)
19:26<drac_boy>they're gone now naturally tho (partially because they were sharing VIA rails to get to south ontario and now this kind of traffic isn't there anymore)
19:27<sim-al2>Oh I was thinking of those just now actually, weren't they rather trouble prone?
19:27<sim-al2>I'm sure the earlier German equipment was a lot of fun for the crews used to EMD
19:28<drac_boy>ah I take that back..looks like they even repainted some "borrowed" emd F units too http://www.polar.sunynassau.edu/~fanellis/37500a.jpg
19:28<drac_boy>at least even if the roof mismatches a bit it doesn't look too bad
19:28<sim-al2>I think at least one of those F-units had a Cat engine installed too
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19:31<sim-al2>Lol one of the TEE sets is now in the Netherlands
19:32<sim-al2>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_RAm_TEE_/_NS_DE_IV
19:36<drac_boy>sim-a12 about usa borrowing .. hows this for what could had been? :p https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4127/5188555930_33e985a2a0_b.jpg
19:36<sim-al2>Also the X2000, and I think a Danish IC3
19:36<drac_boy>even had two diesel locomotives (not sure if they were custom-ordered or non-usa design...they don't look very emd/ge's) for non-wired operations too
19:37<sim-al2>ICE couldn't tilt though, kinda a big deal with the Northeast Corridor
19:37<drac_boy>sim-a12 ah no idea about the ic3 but I think some people called them "kiss" .. as thats what the silly inflated tube looks like when smushed together ;)
19:38<drac_boy>(two trains kissing...now thats a silly thought)
19:38<sim-al2>Those engines were EMD F69PHACs, prototypes with Siemens three-phase AC motors
19:38<drac_boy>F69? no wonder I never heard about that .. I just know of F40 period :)
19:38<sim-al2>The actual nose shape was used in the some of the last production F40PHs for Metra
19:39<drac_boy>I do know tho that there was supposed to be a SD40P .. but something about either 6-axle tracking or the high gravity of water tank inboard caused many derailing issues tho
19:39<sim-al2>Also there was an AC F40PH on Amtrak's roster for several years
19:39<drac_boy>(and thats probably how the F40PH was born from there)
19:39<sim-al2>Partially the big water tanks, partially the abysmal state of basically all non- Santa Fe trackage Amtrak used
19:40<drac_boy>well the F units had the water tank located below chassis (shared with fuel tank) so I suspect thats why they didn't have the issue? I dunno tbh
19:40<sim-al2>Santa Fe actually bought a chunk of them and turned them into regular freight locomotives
19:40<drac_boy>btw sim-a12 the ic3 reminds me of another locomotive...
19:41<drac_boy>sweden X995 unoffically called a toaster for its shape right there (why am I not surprised?) .. the aem-7 that resulted wasn't too bad (even if a bit hobbled by useless FRA regulations)
19:41<sim-al2>Yeah, on the SDP40F they tried to put the water above the frame at thre rear, 1350 gal above and 2150 more underneath
19:41<drac_boy>as I recall they should had been able to run just one aem-7 in pushpull mode but fra apparently didn't like that idea so cue two overpowered locomotives per small trainset
19:42<sim-al2>AEM-7 was not much heavier, and faster and more powerful than the Swedish units...
19:43<sim-al2>AEM-7 ran push pull on the Keystone Corridor for many years
19:43<drac_boy>btw not surprisingly I don't need to be told where X996 came from .. anyone who knows europe trains would immedately recognize the inward-slanted windshields ;)
19:44<sim-al2>Although Amtrak tended to not sit passengers in the cabcars at one point
19:44<drac_boy>I'm not sure but I think it pretty much was only NS that had these sort of cab window layout anyhow
19:45<sim-al2>SNCF was the first big user
19:45<sim-al2>That was the French style for years
19:46<drac_boy>and well yeah I know various railroads had them but often when you're asked about roundish nose with extended buffers you usually have to think of NS again (or even 'red arrow' from SBB too)
19:47<drac_boy>although I guess the SBB ones were very pronounced (perhaps to make space for extra electricals without interrupting interior space)
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19:49<drac_boy>sim-a12 and if you don't mind I recall another canadian thing that has a bit of NS/japan resemble ..
19:51<drac_boy>http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Pa7zak5C97U/mqdefault.jpg and http://www.treinreiziger.nl/userfiles/image/artikel/600/ICM_h2.JPG .. think someone was looking before designing this? http://tri-ang.weebly.com/uploads/4/7/4/0/4740720/8952507.jpg?887
19:52<drac_boy>although as I recall the corridor was eventually left un-carpeted as they never bothered running a pair together in service at all
19:52<sim-al2>Uh the 789 series and the IC trains were built many years after the Turbotrain
19:52<drac_boy>(probably didn't need to seeing that the set was extended to 9 cars)
19:53<drac_boy>I still remember reading one book about them .. was a weird twist of story .. the amtrak ones were doing well while the canada ones were getting run down but later it was the opposite (in fact the canada ones lasted a lot longer)
19:54<drac_boy>one of the problem naturally was that when the usa ones started getting old noone bothered giving them the extra maintenance they needed
19:54<sim-al2>The Turbotrain adopted that style to allow a passenger walk through door, although the orginal power cars were developed from a diesel unit for the C&O (I think)
19:55<sim-al2>Well the fuel economy (or lack of at partial load) of the turbines was the death blow really
19:55<sim-al2>Same thing with Amtrak's later turbine trains, too much fuel and the last ones had electrical problems that were never solved
19:55<drac_boy>sim-a12 even if the doors were not functional .. lets just say that one train literally struck a meat truck ... ripped some of the corridor door off but everythign stayed on track .. and soon it eventually got up to limited speed (more than 50kph still in fact)
19:56<drac_boy>sim-a12 actually I think the real problem was politics .. they wanted "new unproven" instead of sticking with what worked .. heck look at the LRC which soon had no tilting capacity and later the locomotives themself were so-so
19:57<sim-al2>The NS IC trains have had their doors locked out too, but that was because they weren't useful enough to justify
19:57<sim-al2>At least the LRC engines were fairly reliable, just the tilting mechanism didn't work out as hoped
19:57<drac_boy>at least the LRC coaches still ended up behind F's and F40's .. then politics interrupted things again and told via to order new coaches 0_o
19:58<drac_boy>funny enough one of the major problems with the ex-europe coaches via ordered was....they froze up a lot in winter :->
19:58<sim-al2>If CN could be forced to realign the tracks it wouldn't be that much of a problem
19:58<sim-al2>But too expensive now
19:59<drac_boy>well as I recall the turbotrain had no problem with rather rapdi schedule .. they only didn't like the montreal station which didn't have a straight-y route (cue the passive tilt system rocking passengers like silly)
20:01<drac_boy>heck even the current rebuilt F40PH are still only scheduled for an average of 4.5hr ... the turbotrain used to claim 4hr .. shows that you just have little progress in the grand name of things
20:01<sim-al2>I don't image they did, after all it was just 6-8 (sources are not clear) PT6 turbines, and apparently the hydraulic transmission was actually pretty reliable (once fixed), just the fuel problems
20:02<sim-al2>I imagine the tracks haven't changed in 50 years either
20:02<drac_boy>sim-a12 .. ah the fuel problem was only in the initial years when they found out the obvious problem with plane and trains being different (plane only vibratate for short time on land&takeoff while train always shake all times)
20:02<drac_boy>the simple cure was to eventually replace all copper pipes with rubber hoses to put it that way
20:03<sim-al2>I mean they burn too much, turbines have poor fuel economy at low loads
20:03<drac_boy>and sim-a12 that was why they had a few different small units instead of one or two large units .. so you could only run one single genset one at station or up to all six at track speed
20:04<drac_boy>heck even the UP turbines eventually did have a small diesel genset that was used for low speed shuntings or long idles
20:04<sim-al2>The Jettrain concept had an auxillary diesel engine that provided train power and some propulsion power so that they turbine would only need to run once the train could actually accelerate
20:05<drac_boy>sim-as12 funny thing about turbines tho .. I was reading a recent magazine that listed about the few diesel+turbine units DB used to have..eventually they all had the turbine units removed making them into mostly-conventional locomotives
20:06<drac_boy>first time I thought about such a concept but it seem to make sense .. more hp without too much more axle loading
20:07<sim-al2>Diesel engines didn't have as much power for the weight then, so a booster unit was added
20:08<drac_boy>here we are..was easy to find https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Class_210
20:09<sim-al2>The funny part is how many different mechanical combinations have been put into that same body design
20:10<drac_boy>sim-a12 about power weight .. funny thing is I have a small hardcover Deltic book (can't find an image of it online now sorry) .. and it talked about how the deltic put down 3000hp in a lower axle loading compared to some of the recent "monsters" that only had <2000hp with a high axle loading
20:12<sim-al2>The Deltic engines are a mechanical mess though, they pretty much doomed the Class 23 because of their failures
20:12<sim-al2>I guess they mean the Class 40, as that had 2000hp and was heavier
20:12<drac_boy>one silly section I recall from that book was that how sometimes a deltic could be unavailable and even another diesel either so they had to use a steam locomotive and by then fireman always had to get a strong pint to drink at the end of the run because of trying to keep up with the deltic timings!
20:13<drac_boy>shows how much the locomotive changed things in a way I guess
20:13<sim-al2>I'd imagine, I can't remember what the rule of thumb is but somewhere above ~2000hp is considered to be too much for one fireman for an extended time
20:14<sim-al2>The big locomotives either carried two (not common) or used a mechanical stoker system
20:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 would you believe that the deltic was supposed to have a "cleaned up" 3-piece windshield among other small subtle cosmetic changes but this was vetoed? :)
20:15<drac_boy>the book had an outline drawing of what it could had looked like
20:15<sim-al2>Like the Class 37 or something else?
20:15<drac_boy>yeah looks a bit like that one .. but curved around the sides
20:16<drac_boy>which of ... I dunno why but I sometimes like the 37 itself a bit .. probably because it doesn't look too chunky for a non-flatcab uk diesel
20:17<drac_boy>sim-a12 some of the early "super" usa steam locomotives really did have two firebox holes ... crazy to think of the crew condition back then
20:17<drac_boy>strokers solved that problem :)
20:19<drac_boy>sim-a12 if you don't mind me mentioning it .. its not exactly my favorite but I do sorta like the class 07 .. nicknamed 'teddy bear' for some reason too as I recall .. too bad that they got built just right at the time the Breech Axe thing happened so talk about having their ground swiped from under them
20:20<drac_boy>still got a few around in preservation last I remember seeing photos
20:21<sim-al2>Yeah the shunters are pretty cool
20:21<drac_boy>sim-a12 we should talk more tomorrow about something randomly rails ... I'm going off for tonight now tho sorry :p
20:21<drac_boy>see you next time ok?
20:22<sim-al2>yep, good night
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