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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-18

---Logopened Wed Nov 18 00:00:38 2015
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02:21<Flygon_>Damn
02:21<Flygon_>I missed drac_boy again?
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02:28<andythenorth>o/
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02:39<Flygon>Eyyy!
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04:55<Wolf01>moin
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05:07<Heftel_K_>Guys! I play on net for company 2 and save game to file. After loading I'm owner of company 1, how to switch my company to 2?
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05:22<Wolf01>V453000, the heavy oil colour in pipes bother me, i always mistake it for water
05:23<V453000>hm yeah
05:23<V453000>what do you suggest! ;D
05:23<Wolf01>make it orange as it is the icon
05:24<V453000>G
05:24<Wolf01>ok, the icon is copper
05:24<V453000>lets see what can we do about it :P
05:25<@planetmaker>Heftel_K_, use the switch-company cheat. Or open locally a server and join company2 with another openttd instance
05:25<Wolf01>the light oil is gold in both the pipe and the icon, i didn't understand why the heavy oil has different colour :P
05:27<V453000>yeah I know what you mean Wolf01, I will talk to dudes about it :) thanks
05:27<Wolf01>thank you too ;)
05:27<V453000>btw :D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/_FACTORIO/V453000radar.jpg
05:31<Wolf01>what should i look to?
05:31<V453000>radar GUI :)
05:32<Wolf01>didn't it have one?
05:32<V453000>hint, my name is in the item name :P
05:33<Supercheese>ah you got on the backer list
05:33<Supercheese>I only got furnace attendant :P
05:33<Wolf01>ah, yeah, i noticed that more buildings now have bakers names
05:33<V453000>I bought the top tier since I was super interested in the gfx wiki
05:34<Heftel_K_>planetmaker: ty, I didn't know about cheats. Lol.
05:34<V453000>didnt yet know I would contribute ot it one day :P
05:34<Wolf01>i'm furnace attendant too
05:35<Heftel_K_>Never use it for many years.
05:36<V453000>Wolf01: guess you play without Alt mode eh :)
05:37<Wolf01>usually yes, i only use it when i need to find something on chests or a particular factory
05:37<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> Heftel_K_, use the switch-company cheat. Or open locally a server and join company2 with another openttd instance <-- you don't need another instance if you play "local" multiplayer
05:45<Wolf01>bah, i need to get plastic to the other side of the complex
05:45<Supercheese>bots bots bots
05:47<Wolf01>i think it's time to expand and make dedicated production complexes
05:47<Wolf01>i already have 14 factories in this one
05:51<V453000>I hate bots when it comes to controlling how much goes where etc
05:51<V453000>which is kind of inevitable sooner or later
05:52<V453000>BELTS
05:52<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/_FACTORIO/MessFort/MessFort_MESS.png
05:53<Wolf01>meh, it looks like a ottdcoop game :D
05:53<Wolf01>*an
05:53<V453000>yeah :)
05:53<V453000>organic growth, and adding shitload of things
05:54<lastmikoi>afaik Factorio is one of the few games that succesfully implemented the concept of technical debt
05:55<Wolf01>factories to produce mining drills... do you really need those?
05:55<V453000>I automate everything Wolf01, and mining drills are especially handy when you want to expand quickly
05:56<V453000>lastmikoi: what do you mean technical debt?
05:56<Wolf01>i produce them while travelling to destination
05:56<lastmikoi>V453000: «let's just put this factory there, It won't last anyway»
05:56<lastmikoi>6 hours later you're forced to divert your railroad because of this factory's poor placement decision
05:57<V453000>also, when biters get through your walls, they often take miners as first priority since they make a lot of pollution
05:57<lastmikoi>kinda like technical debt in programming
05:57<V453000>hm idk, never had that issue lastmikoi but I can see how that happens in longer games :D I dont play that long
05:57<lastmikoi>«let's just put this function here, with those arguments, it'll be refactored soon anyway»
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05:58<V453000>on the contrary, I love starting organically and keeping it forever
05:58<lastmikoi>6 months later you're forced to redo everything from scratch because the code is filled with debt
05:58<V453000>right
05:58<V453000>well in factorio you can just start a new factory elsewhere and keep the old mess in the worst case scenario :P
05:58<V453000>OpenTTD is more fitting to that, because it has limited map, so you cannot escape the solutions forever
05:58<lastmikoi>but yeah, I play factorio like I code my programs, wasting time making it perfect and never-to-be-revamped
05:59<lastmikoi>I can tell you multiplayer's no fun :D
05:59<V453000>sure, well, it is not like I am going to revamp my mess :)
05:59<Wolf01>i play factorio like i code my programs: continuous refactoring of things
05:59<lastmikoi>V453000: yeah OpenTTD seems more fitting for that, but it has been a very long time since I played it, sadly.
06:00<Wolf01>i play ottd like that too
06:01<lastmikoi>V453000: holy cow that's a lot of productivity modules
06:03<V453000>yeah, bobs modules also allow you to put them into all kinds of products, not only intermediates
06:03<V453000>I kind of like that, makes it less wtf
06:03<Supercheese>they should be renamed to MOAR modules because you use them to get MOAR stuff from the same inputs :P
06:03<V453000>haha
06:03<lastmikoi>V453000: GOD MODULES !
06:03<V453000>fuck god modules
06:03<Supercheese>and we're all about moar stuff
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06:04<Supercheese>well, except biters. Less biters.
06:04<lastmikoi>(which should have been called BOB MODULES, but hey)
06:04<V453000>I dont want to make the game dumb and easy with god modules, just want to make productivity modules which are harder to produce, and put them into anything I want :) the extra levels of modules are fun too
06:05<Supercheese>yeah eight levels whew
06:05<Supercheese>you can't even automate the last few without max tier assemblers
06:05<Supercheese>well, for the merged ones that is
06:06<V453000>I am using very simplified version
06:06<V453000>without merged, no god modules, no bob machines or anything
06:07<Supercheese>ah
06:07<V453000>only modules with more levels, different recipes made of the bobs ingredients, and their own research lab with 8 tiers
06:07<V453000>I like it a lot.
06:07<V453000>no new ores or wtf stuff, just a bit of stuff
06:08<Supercheese>like extra toolbelts, I see
06:08<V453000>yeah that is the mod which adds like 20 levels to each research
06:08<V453000>so you always have something to use lab for
06:09<V453000>because the high-tier researches are so stupidly expensive that it takes basically forever XD I plan on setting up a giant lab though of course
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06:10<V453000>also, fluid barrel for president
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>am i the only one here that didn't quite get captured by factorio?
06:10<Supercheese>Follower Count 20 is like, what, few thousand each?
06:10<Supercheese>I don't think I've ever bothered to research that high
06:10<V453000>yeah like 10k I think
06:10<V453000>with the mod
06:10<V453000>vanilla is like 2k I believe
06:11<V453000>but yeah just so many levels for follower count
06:11<Supercheese>that you'll never really need
06:11<V453000>NEED BIG LAB.
06:11<V453000>MOAR
06:11<V453000>:P
06:13<V453000>the most retarded thing I saw is dytech mkIV beacon ... effect distribution of 100%, can put 11 modules into it, and area of effect is like range 20 :D
06:13<V453000>not playing dytech again.
06:13<V453000>not just due to the beacon, but yeah
06:16<Supercheese>bob's has a mk3 beacon that is similar
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06:20<FR^2>Hiho
06:21<@planetmaker>hi
06:21<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, rest assured, you're not alone
06:21<FR^2>I thought "Yate Haugan" was a name of one engineer participating in the design of the Concorde. Can't find that name. What's the pun/significance of "Yate Haugan"?
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06:22<Eddi|zuHause>FR^2: all the vehicle names are of people involved in making transport tycoon (alpha testers, etc.)
06:22<FR^2>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, that's the relation. okay :)
06:22<FR^2>Thanks.
06:25<__ln__>oh, an FR^2 on this channel.
06:54<Wolf01>derp... i'm stupid, i just finished a railway for iron ore and i linked it directly to the factory chain
07:22<V453000>Supercheese: yes but only for 6 modules and much(I think much :) ) smaller coverage area :)
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07:57<argoneus>rip france
07:57<V453000>zerg rush
07:58<argoneus>they killed a police dog apparently
07:58<argoneus>https://i.imgur.com/OZgt8ti.jpg
07:58<argoneus>rip Diesel
07:59<V453000>yeah well we probably have bigger issues than a dog :P
07:59<argoneus>well no humans died
07:59<argoneus>only some isis people and a dog
07:59<argoneus>isis members*
08:00<V453000>rite
08:00<Wolf01>isis minions*
08:01<argoneus>we need a nuke that selectively kills only members of a given group
08:01<argoneus>so the good muslims wont get in trouble
08:01<argoneus>;_;
08:01<V453000>well we mainly need our inner politics to be less retarded
08:01<Wolf01>^
08:02<argoneus>inner as in
08:02<argoneus>EU politics
08:02<argoneus>or czech
08:05<andythenorth>politics
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08:05<Wolf01>i really need divivers in factorio, splitters are cool, but to make a divider you need to build a contraption with splitters and underground belts
08:05<Wolf01>*dividers
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08:31<BlackSnow>test
08:31<argoneus>it works BlackSnow
08:31<argoneus>\o/
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08:45<FR^2>I'm often trying to plan ahead with enlarging stations and airports. Therefore I buy land. Is there any way to buy a larger area other than buying each land field one by one?
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09:18<Flygon_>I back
09:18<Flygon_>I back FR^2's question*
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09:22<FR^2>bulldoze works much easier ;)
09:28<@planetmaker>FR^2, there is no such way. Mostly it was not (yet) implemented on grounds of easier griefing that way.
09:31<FR^2>hmm, yes, I can understand that, but then again, there's lots of possibilities to do nasty things ;)
09:31<FR^2>well, the question is answered - currently there is no easy way.
09:31<@planetmaker>yes, you're right, it's easy to do loads of nasty things
09:32<@planetmaker>tbh I argued against area-drag for buying. But now I'm not so sure it's the best argument - as there are ways to grief anyway, and not really more difficult
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09:33<argoneus>planetmaker: what about horizontal railroads
09:33<Wolf01>for example you could drag&drop railway all over the area, you could only do it in straight lines but with just some more work it's almost the same
09:34<@planetmaker>argoneus, that's another way to grief. But obviously one you can't forbid
09:34<@planetmaker>and that's the reason I'm not sure anymore it's a good argument to not implement area-drag buy land
09:35<@planetmaker>but then, how often is it needed to area-buy land?
09:35<Wolf01>city shaping
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09:37<@planetmaker>and there you need area-buy instead of single tiles?
09:37<@planetmaker>If I want to shape a city, I guy single tiles where roads would continue
09:38<Wolf01>not if you are in the middle of a city trying to build a subway
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09:39<Wolf01>i often demolish a 4x12 rectangle to build a station and i need to keep it clean for just some time
09:39<FR^2>I'm using it in order to prevent cities to grow all around my airport - so that later on I can replace that airport with a larger variant
09:39<FR^2>(but then again, gaining profit with airplanes is far to easy if you don't restrict it ;)
09:41<@planetmaker>Wolf01, I usually don't have the reputation to demolish that much of a city :)
09:43<Wolf01>cities really like me :)
09:44<Wolf01>i can only do it one or twice a year, and if some new building gets in the way i must wait
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10:07<Wolf01>got to go, bye
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10:56<@Alberth>moin
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11:17<FR^2>Are there any graphics patches to make the rail signs more clearly distinguishable? ;)
11:19<@Alberth>I guess you mean signals rather than signs :)
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure several people attempted that, and ended up with something that worked for them, but is equally confusing to everybody else
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>like dvorak keyboards, which you find people swearing on that it makes all the difference, but asymptotically doesn't change anything
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11:22<FR^2>Alberth: indeed ;)
11:23<@Alberth>zbase (the 32bpp baseset) and NUTS have different signals, but they also change a lot of other things
11:23<@Alberth>there may be more newgrfs
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11:25<@Alberth>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/index.php?do=list&cid=5 lists 2 other newgrfs with changed signals, never tried them
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>i meant particularly this one http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50450
11:27<@Alberth>ha, fun :)
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11:28<@Alberth>I still don't know the non-electric signals, but I set the startdate for the electric signals around 1800 or so, and never see the non-electric ones
11:29<@Alberth>in the end, it may be simpler to get used to the normal signals, as everybody uses those.
11:29<@Alberth>it makes communication about signal layout possible
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11:30<@Alberth>note that you pretty much only need the one-way path signal at first
11:30<@Alberth>with the two-way path signal at some special cases
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11:32<@Alberth>the basic block signal is also often used, although there is no need for it, so you may want to recognize that one too
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11:33<@Alberth>the combo signals are very very special case
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11:59<Eearslya>meow
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12:07<FR^2>Hmm. zBase seems neat :)
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12:09<@Alberth>not really, but ymmv
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12:36<Eearslya>meow
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12:39<TrueBrain>we now have 2 cats in this channel?
12:43<@peter1138>urgh
12:43<@peter1138>leg swolen
12:43<@peter1138>hope it isn't too fucked :S
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27449 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-18 18:45:09 +0100 )
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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13:19<@Alberth>quak
13:19<frosch123>hoi
13:23<__ln__>@seen SmatZ
13:23<@DorpsGek>__ln__: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 15 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 51 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <SmatZ> wish I were so lucky...
13:23<TrueBrain>LIES
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14:15<@Terkhen>hello
14:16<frosch123>hej
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14:22<andythenorth>o/
14:24<frosch123>hmm, you didn't like the cargoflow graphs :p
14:31<andythenorth>I did an oops :)
14:33<argoneus>TRAINS TRAINS TRAINS TRAINS
14:33*andythenorth is refactoring some yuck
14:47<andythenorth>merged functions with ‘if’ statements to control their behaviour
14:47<andythenorth>give the illusion of efficient programming
14:49<frosch123>hmm, btw. the is no "else" in pyramid templated, is there?
14:50<frosch123>hmm, though there is a switch, so switch(condition) + case(true) + case(false) :p
14:57<andythenorth>there is no else
14:57<andythenorth>occasionally a PITA
14:57<andythenorth>but usually you / one pre-prepares the data structure for rendering
14:57<andythenorth>and handle it there
14:57<andythenorth>but yeah, sometimes there are clunky conditionals
14:58<andythenorth>chameleon/tal is not perfect, but I have been using it a long time and it suits my brain :)
14:59<andythenorth>right, 48 hours later, I’ve refactored FIRS enough to swap Grain for Maize in one economy :P
14:59<andythenorth>"think of the time saved"
15:08<frosch123>:)
15:10<Eearslya>I wish MSVC wasn't completely inept at refactoring
15:12<andythenorth>it doesn’t have find-replace? :O
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15:13<Eearslya>It has find-replace, but not real IDE-style refactoring
15:14<Eearslya>i.e. rename an object across the entire project
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15:18*andythenorth has never done any proper programming :)
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15:45<+glx>Eearslya: it can do it (it does it for C# IIRC)
15:46<Eearslya>Sure, for C# it does..It sucks doing it to a normal C project
15:46<Eearslya>er, C++ in this case
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15:59<__ln__>Eearslya: try http://wholetomato.com/
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16:04<Zuu>Eearslya: Visual Studio 2015 have refactor rename (Ctrl+R,R) at least in C#.
16:04<Zuu>Oh.. reading along backlog, you said that yourself. :-)
16:06<Eearslya>__ln__: That's a pretty steep price for something I would not nearly get enough use out of.. XD
16:07<Eearslya>It -looks- like it has refactor rename in C++, but it's..incredibly stupid. i.e. if you tried to refactor Object1::name, it will also refactor Object2::name, Object3::name, and just..literally any variable named 'name'
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16:15<Zuu>Looks like wholetomato may also be a toolset useful for users who are stuck at an old version of visual studio. Eg. if you in corperate settings depend on on a library only available for some visual studio version.
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16:44<__ln__>Zuu: That thing has features that VS2015 doesn't.
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17:20*Supercheese reads xkcd, goes to Google, views source.
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17:20<Supercheese>good lord
17:26<Eearslya>Yeah, google has this thing where their pages are obfuscated in javascript..I have no idea why.
17:28<Eearslya>I have no idea how ALL THAT JAVASCRIPT can be more efficient than just HTML
17:28<Supercheese>Google magick
17:35<Eearslya>It barely saves 20kB of transfer too (at least on google.com)
17:37<@planetmaker>20kB * how many requests per hour?
17:38<Supercheese>I believe the scientific number for Google's requests per hour is, "Like, a billion"
17:38<Eearslya>fair enough
17:49<Zuu>__ln__: Sure. And the price is not that bad if you would use VS a lot at work. But it said also that it provided some additional features present in todays VS for older versions.
17:50-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: night]
17:54<Rejf>Eearslya: with html and older browsers google used to render results server-side. now, with all that javascript they can use it to render search results on your machine and just produce and send some basic json data from their servers. win for them all the way
17:55-!-Mazur [~mazur@5ED07F22.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
17:57<Eearslya>Google does all this..and yet they end up sending their own google wallet e-mail into my spam folder. Welp.
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18:48<drac_boy>hmmm wheres that silly train nut friend now :->
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18:54<Flygon>I aint silly
18:55<Mazur>Yes, yous is.
18:56<drac_boy>who said anything about you flygon
18:56<Flygon>Dunno xP
18:56<Flygon>But it's been over a year since I last saw ya
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18:59<drac_boy>so what both of you doing atm anyhow?
19:09<Flygon>Both?
19:09<Flygon>Mate, the channel's grown xP
19:09<Flygon>And I'm about to go shopping
19:09<Flygon>Am good tho
19:12*Mazur is finishing up upgrading his fedora to 22.
19:12<Mazur>And playing FreeCol.
19:12<Mazur>And writing a perl/Gtk game.
19:12*drac_boy throws some empty bags at flygon?
19:13<Flygon>Shit
19:13<Flygon>Bus leaves in 9
19:13<Flygon>Bye
19:13<Flygon>._.
19:13<Flygon>Go prod James!
19:13<drac_boy>:p
19:13<drac_boy>mazur, what kind of game genre?
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause><Eearslya> Yeah, google has this thing where their pages are obfuscated in javascript..I have no idea why. <-- i don't know why, but even though (or because?) i have javascript disabled, having a google search page open uses ridiculous amounts of CPU time (like 20%)
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>for something that should be a static page...
19:16<Mazur>Board game.
19:16<Mazur>two of those, and a card game.
19:16<Mazur>Computer versions of existing games.
19:17<drac_boy>ah..does sound interesting...is it freeware/shareware on release?
19:17<Mazur>But an idea is brewing for a resource management/country development/people ruling the of game
19:18<Mazur>Depends on the authors of the original games for the board games, otherwise freeware.
19:19<drac_boy>I might like to try it then after all :)
19:20<Mazur>Well, so far I've just been struggling to get an outline on the board square where the mouse is.
19:20<Mazur>Learning Gtk on the fly.
19:25<drac_boy>well thanks for doing it in gtk tho? :)
19:26<Mazur>Should be easier, the idea was, use glade to design interface, use perl for the program.
19:26<Mazur>Easy to change and test little stuff.
19:27<Mazur>Only displaying an image on top of another image proved to be more involved than I had hoped.
19:28<drac_boy>(I kinda hate games/apps that expect you to install almost an entire alternative DE just to run the bloody thing anyway)
19:29*Mazur too.
19:31<Mazur>And then they mess up the dependencies, so if not the exact version of a library is installed, it won't install, and on system upgrade they throw you in an infinite loop of dependencies.
19:38<drac_boy>and don't forget systemd compounding basic things too
19:39-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:40<Mazur>Ah yes, I really _loved_ that coming out, and being used instead of regular init.d scripts I knew almost by heart.
19:42<Mazur>And now they replaced ntpd and yum, as well.
19:42<drac_boy>at least its good thing I prefer slack/bsd .. so I don't even have to touch some of the silly 'new' things atm .. to our own anyhow
19:43<Mazur>Only they are just improved versions, so why the fuck change the name and commands, anyway?
19:44<Mazur>Oh, and how I adore the 15 different roads to getting sound to play.
19:45<Mazur>esd, artsd, pulse, plain OSS, plain ALSA, jack and who knows how many more....
19:46<Mazur>And every game I like demands a different one.
19:47<Mazur>So I have pulse running through ALSA with OSS compat running through JACK,
19:47<Mazur>Or something like that.
19:48<drac_boy>for me its just oss with the external audio hw coming through jack instead
19:48<drac_boy>dunno why they keep wanting to change things than you know...stick to the old things that worked .. but meh :-s
19:51<Mazur>Well, the one wants the best possible latency, the other the best possible sound quality, and they have a falling out over which of those is more important, so they make their separate version, and a third wants configurability, but differently done.
19:51<Mazur>Etc, etc.
19:51<Mazur>And since the falling out, they refuse to even speak.
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19:56<drac_boy>anyway I'm going for now but maybe another time ok mazur?
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20:39<Flygon>Back
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23:31<Eearslya>Eddi|zuHause: I wonder how google even detects missing javascript when supposedly the entire page is javascript..
23:32<Flygon>I almost never /amsg, but this is extremely important. If you live in the US state of Georgia and registered to vote, please read this: http://www.peachpundit.com/2015/11/18/secretary-of-state-released-names-and-all-identifying-info-on-6-1-million-voters/
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 19 00:00:40 2015