| --- | Log | opened Thu Nov 19 00:00:40 2015 |
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| 03:05 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
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| 03:59 | <@planetmaker> | \o |
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| 05:54 | <Wolf01> | hi hi |
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| 06:20 | <__ln__> | buongiorno signore |
| 06:20 | <Wolf01> | ciao __ln__ |
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| 09:08 | <FR^2> | is there a way to add a halt to each of a group of e.g. busses? |
| 09:09 | <@peter1138> | Are you sharing orders? |
| 09:10 | <FR^2> | Erm. Not sure what you mean. They all have the identical sequence of stops. |
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| 09:18 | <andythenorth> | when does newgrf wiki sync its auth db to tt-forums? |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | I have created a new forum user because I have been unable to log in to newgrf wiki for months |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | but the new user fails too |
| 09:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | FR^2: "identical" and "shared" are different things |
| 09:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | FR^2: you create shared orders with ctrl+click |
| 09:21 | <FR^2> | Ah, yes, I'm reading the wiki right now, thanks, that is the keyword I was looking for |
| 09:23 | <FR^2> | cool thing :) Thanks |
| 09:24 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, you should highlight o ru dge about that |
| 09:31 | <Mazur> | "o ru dge"? |
| 09:32 | <Mazur> | %=} |
| 09:46 | <@peter1138> | ofudge |
| 09:47 | * | andythenorth inventing industries |
| 09:47 | <TrueBrain> | owh! FUDGE! What did I do ... |
| 09:47 | <TrueBrain> | ? :D |
| 09:48 | * | Mazur remains unconvinced. |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | or I could post newgrf wiki edits here and one of you could put them in :P |
| 10:03 | <TrueBrain> | it is one easy way to receive a ban, indeed :D |
| 10:03 | <TrueBrain> | <3 :D |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | or I could just stop maintaining the newgrf wiki, also :) |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | easiest |
| 10:04 | <TrueBrain> | noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
| 10:04 | <TrueBrain> | :D |
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| 11:03 | <Wolf01> | o/ |
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| 11:07 | <@Alberth> | moin |
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| 11:46 | <Eearslya> | Alberth: I replied to your comment a couple days back, FYI XD |
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| 11:46 | <@Alberth> | I saw, but I have to try it, which I haven't done yet |
| 11:47 | <Eearslya> | Aha |
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| 12:21 | <Wolf01> | bye |
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| 12:58 | <andythenorth> | o/t anyone here know about Wii U controllers? |
| 12:59 | <TrueBrain> | white things |
| 12:59 | <TrueBrain> | about this long |
| 12:59 | <andythenorth> | I need 4 on christmas day, and they need to not suck |
| 12:59 | <TrueBrain> | used to control a WiiU :P |
| 12:59 | <TrueBrain> | :D |
| 12:59 | <andythenorth> | and I don’t have 4 |
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| 13:17 | <argoneus> | truebrainfriend |
| 13:17 | <argoneus> | andythenorth: can't you use craigslist or whatever |
| 13:17 | <argoneus> | ebay |
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| 13:52 | <mczapkie> | Hello |
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| 14:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | is there even more than one type of WiiU controller? |
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| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately there appear to be 4 from nintendo |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | and then there are third party options |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | and Wii controllers _may_ also be compatible, but that’s unclear, and maybe only for some games |
| 14:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm assuming you have one. just get more of that exact same type |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | the one in the box is the one with the screen and costs $140 |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | and you might only be able to use one or two per Wii U |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | the Gamecube controllers might work with a USB adapter, but maybe only in Super Smash Bros |
| 14:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then maybe you should read the manual? |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | I don’t have the Wii U yet :P |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | and the internet is not yet helpful |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | it seems that you have to pick the game you want to play first, then buy controllers for it |
| 14:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm afraid i'm not helpful either |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | :D |
| 14:10 | <andythenorth> | I wasn’t hopeful in this channel tbh :) |
| 14:10 | <andythenorth> | but I am avoiding Facebook, because of many reasons |
| 14:11 | * | andythenorth back to FIRS :P |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | should a car dealer industry accept petrol? |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | or should I just make it a ‘garage'? |
| 14:12 | <andythenorth> | how does it work in other countries? |
| 14:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | car dealers and fuel stations are completely separate here |
| 14:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and "garage" means something completely different |
| 14:13 | <mczapkie> | Garage is an obsolete version of car dealer, workshop and gas station 3 in 1 |
| 14:13 | <Taede> | though occasionally there might be a service station right outside a dealership, but that is coincidence, they usually aren't connected otherwise |
| 14:15 | <andythenorth> | in the uk, garage is now either workshop or petrol station, they used to be often combined, but now mostly aren't |
| 14:15 | <andythenorth> | and some also sold cars, but now mostly don’t |
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| 14:17 | <mczapkie> | http://findinglincolnillinois.com/busindmanufimages/postvillegarage-johnsonbrothers-500.jpg |
| 14:17 | <frosch123> | here petrol stations are usually combined with a car wash |
| 14:18 | <mczapkie> | they sold or even assembled cars, repair them and sold gasoline, now it evolved |
| 14:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, in german, "Garage" is just the (enclosed) place where you put your car overnight |
| 14:18 | <frosch123> | well, and a grocery/stuff store |
| 14:18 | <mczapkie> | but in heyday of automobilism, there was no gas stations |
| 14:18 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: that in the UK too P |
| 14:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think it evolved completely differently in germany. in the early days, gas was sold at apothecaries, and later it was separated. it never merged with car dealers/repair shops (probably for storage licensing reasons) |
| 14:20 | <mczapkie> | you can make Garages (in pre-war meaning) accepting both, and gasoline station and car dealer which appear later |
| 14:20 | <frosch123> | i have seen some old repair shops with petrol station |
| 14:20 | <frosch123> | never a car dealer though |
| 14:21 | <mczapkie> | I done such thing with ECS extension set |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | mczapkie: you gave me the idea ;) |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | it happened to fit exactly to something I wanted to do in FIRS |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | spooky timing :) |
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| 14:22 | <mczapkie> | but in ECS there are stockpile limits and such evolvng havebut I'm not sure if such idea bring anything to FIRS except eye candyness |
| 14:23 | <mczapkie> | in ECS there are stockpile limits and such evolving make sense |
| 14:23 | <andythenorth> | in this case I just need one extra industry |
| 14:23 | <andythenorth> | petrol station I have already |
| 14:23 | <andythenorth> | I wondered if I should merge petrol station + car dealer, but I think not |
| 14:24 | <mczapkie> | vehicles are ENSP or just another new cargo? |
| 14:25 | <andythenorth> | vehicles - new cargo |
| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | but I intend to add an industry for vehicles -> ENSP |
| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | it will be a long chain, but eh |
| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | I am adding ‘machinery dealer’ or ‘supply yard’, not sure which yet |
| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | I have sprites for supply yard, that might influence the decision :P |
| 14:27 | <mczapkie> | at least PKP car shuttle wagons will be functional for FIRS |
| 14:28 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 14:28 | <mczapkie> | PKP author don't want to use vehicle sprites as ENSP because ENSP are in crates |
| 14:28 | <andythenorth> | fair |
| 14:28 | <andythenorth> | I have a pretty nice Scandinavan-ish economy for Basic Arctic |
| 14:28 | <andythenorth> | it has a problem with food though :P |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | all food is livestock or fish :P |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | I don’t want to add dairy, because that’s too similar to Basic Temperate |
| 14:29 | <mczapkie> | maybe grain from harbour? |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | grain is boring, FIRS uses it in most economies :) |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | but maybe |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | there are no vegetables in FIRS at all |
| 14:30 | <andythenorth> | could add those |
| 14:30 | <andythenorth> | ‘farm produce’ <- lazy cargo o_O |
| 14:30 | <mczapkie> | potatoes are vegetables |
| 14:30 | <mczapkie> | and can be use to make potatoes juice |
| 14:31 | <mczapkie> | 40% |
| 14:31 | <mczapkie> | thery popular in Scandinavia |
| 14:32 | <mczapkie> | (sorry for typos, I need to clean my keyboard) |
| 14:33 | <andythenorth> | :) |
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| 14:34 | <andythenorth> | I could add potatoes |
| 14:34 | <andythenorth> | or root vegetables? more flexible? |
| 14:34 | <andythenorth> | or just vegetables? |
| 14:36 | <mczapkie> | vegetables are ok, but what to do with them? go to food processor or shop? |
| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | yeah, exactly |
| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | they have to go to food processor |
| 14:37 | <mczapkie> | BTW these Firs shops are bloody creatures, they steal fruits from brewery |
| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | otherwise farm might as well just make ‘food' |
| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | fruit going to shop is dumb |
| 14:38 | <andythenorth> | I thought it was a reasonable suggestion so I added it :P |
| 14:38 | <andythenorth> | but it’s daft |
| 14:38 | <andythenorth> | I should make it go via the food processor |
| 14:40 | <mczapkie> | it makes sense |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | will end up with food processor in every economy :P |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | boring :P |
| 14:42 | <mczapkie> | not sure how simply/complicated must to be Your economy |
| 14:42 | <mczapkie> | potatoes give fork to food processor and brewery |
| 14:42 | <mczapkie> | vegetables is too general term |
| 14:43 | <andythenorth> | it’s a basic economy :) |
| 14:44 | <andythenorth> | I’ve just pushed, I’m waiting for bundles to build the docs ;) |
| 14:46 | <mczapkie> | will these vehicles have mass 2.5t like ECS one, or different? |
| 14:46 | <mczapkie> | because my road set is adjusted to carry as much items as load mass allow |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | I haven’t thought about that yet :) |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | I would guess about 1t / unit |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | maybe more |
| 14:48 | <mczapkie> | I must to use cargo_unit_weight instead of hard-coded coefficient to adapt my load capacity |
| 14:49 | <andythenorth> | http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic |
| 14:49 | <andythenorth> | ^ not complete yet, some industries need swapped / added |
| 14:49 | <andythenorth> | and I want to make Fish be an export cargo, but not sure how |
| 14:51 | <mczapkie> | how to magify this flow chart? |
| 14:51 | <andythenorth> | http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/arctic_basic.dot.svg |
| 14:51 | <mczapkie> | ok, got it, show frame |
| 14:51 | <andythenorth> | it has problems in some browsers |
| 14:51 | <andythenorth> | IE especially |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | it’s basically the ‘Volvo’ economy :P |
| 14:52 | <mczapkie> | not sure if general store is needed in arctic climate |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | need some town destination for food |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | got alternative suggestion? o_O |
| 14:54 | <mczapkie> | towns accept food themselves |
| 14:55 | <andythenorth> | yair :) But not if player uses a different climate, or house set or so on :) |
| 14:55 | * | andythenorth wonders about Fish -> Port |
| 14:56 | <andythenorth> | Fish -> Fishing Harbour -> Frozen Fish -> Port :P |
| 14:57 | <mczapkie> | I tought that this set will work only for Arctic climate |
| 14:57 | <mczapkie> | if not, of course food black hole is mandatory |
| 14:57 | <andythenorth> | I keep it flexible per climate :) |
| 14:58 | <mczapkie> | and what about ski resort instead of this boring hotel thing? |
| 14:59 | <mczapkie> | for example some TARS objects etc, located at slope |
| 14:59 | <andythenorth> | I wanted it to be this hotel :) http://renews.biz/Images/Hi_CLL_24411473_CLL-4771.jpg |
| 14:59 | <andythenorth> | which is canada, but is a ski resort... |
| 15:00 | <mczapkie> | wow |
| 15:00 | <mczapkie> | generally, I meant to make hotels outside town |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | in remote areas? |
| 15:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | on hilltops? ECS tourist center style? |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | maybe |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | although |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | this economy is one of the only ones without alcohol cargo |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | nordic hotels without alcohol? :o |
| 15:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | alcohol has crazy taxes on it up there... |
| 15:02 | <mczapkie> | as I said, potatos and potato juice |
| 15:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (i think. i've never actually been north of Gedser (Denmark)) |
| 15:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (and that was in the early 90's, when i didn't care about alcohol. or prices) |
| 15:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | mczapkie: wasn't it the polish that made vodka from potatos? |
| 15:05 | <andythenorth> | I left out alcohol deliberately :) |
| 15:06 | <andythenorth> | the thing with basic economies is |
| 15:06 | <mczapkie> | that they are basic |
| 15:06 | <andythenorth> | they have to have: mail, pax, goods, mnsp, ensp, fmsp |
| 15:06 | <andythenorth> | they start to look a bit the same |
| 15:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | why do they need all the supplies? |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | they’re pretty unavoidable in FIRS |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | mnsp could be eliminated, but it would be difficult |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | also chemicals seems to be needed in all of them |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | and fish, because ‘people like sea based industry' |
| 15:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so you have 6 fixed. you can use 10 out of like 30 others to mix things up |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | hence desire to drop alcohol, which is in all other economies |
| 15:08 | <mczapkie> | in case of basi industry, maybe general 'supplies' are enough |
| 15:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, you could try merging farm/engineering supplies |
| 15:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and have that the difference between "basic" and "extended" economies |
| 15:09 | * | andythenorth ponders wood -> sauna :P |
| 15:10 | <mczapkie> | I found strange bug related to road vehicles custom sound |
| 15:10 | <mczapkie> | not sure if it is my fault or openttd bug |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | you managed to compile with road vehicles custom sound? :o |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | I tried adding them to HEQS, but compile failed |
| 15:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | sounds need very special format |
| 15:11 | <mczapkie> | yes, I have this format, it works ok |
| 15:11 | <mczapkie> | if only one road vehicle grf is loaded |
| 15:12 | <mczapkie> | for example sound_effect: sound("src/sfx/Jelczdoors_ermfilm.wav"); play this sound if started |
| 15:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | mczapkie: it probably doesn't hurt to report it. make sure you attach a test grf to reproduce it |
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| 15:13 | <mczapkie> | but if two grfs are loaded, sound are swapped |
| 15:13 | <mczapkie> | ok, I will make simply grf and check it |
| 15:17 | <mczapkie> | horses are honking, trucks are ringing and trams are whining |
| 15:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think i read a poem for children that went like that :p |
| 15:19 | <frosch123> | the summoning dark cannot handle those |
| 15:22 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | maybe scandinavians just eat meat and fish |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | no other food groups? o_O |
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| 15:25 | <oskari89> | andythenorth: Potatoes and rye / oat grain? :P |
| 15:27 | <oskari89> | Maybe also, sugar beet -> sugar -> bakery? |
| 15:27 | <andythenorth> | potatoes -> frozen chip factory -> food? :P |
| 15:29 | <mczapkie> | fish -> rotten fish -> food (rakfish) |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | ha ha |
| 15:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | do they only make these to troll tourists, or is there actually a way to make them an enjoyable meal? |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | I saw a video recently of people being sick eating rakfish |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | edifying |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | eh, so this economy could just import food |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | which is simplest |
| 15:44 | <andythenorth> | but it also exports food |
| 15:44 | <andythenorth> | due to fish :P |
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| 15:48 | <andythenorth> | my TV has an earworming TV ad for ‘Norwegian Seafood - fresh from the cold, clear waters of Norway’ on heavy repeat :P |
| 15:49 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 15:50 | <@planetmaker> | those sea food farms are funky. At night they switch under-water lights on and off so that the fish eat more during night |
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| 15:58 | <andythenorth> | ‘frozen seafood’ cargo? o_O |
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| 16:39 | <andythenorth> | ha |
| 16:39 | <andythenorth> | 8 crates ENSP produced per 8 vehicles delivered |
| 16:39 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 16:42 | <mczapkie> | these variables in industry window are indexed by hex or dec? |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 16:43 | <mczapkie> | newgrf debug information |
| 16:43 | <mczapkie> | Yen button |
| 16:44 | <andythenorth> | ha that’s the ‘bug’ icon I drew |
| 16:44 | <andythenorth> | these vars are the numbers in nfo spec |
| 16:45 | <andythenorth> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Industries |
| 16:46 | <mczapkie> | but these are decimal numbers? |
| 16:46 | <mczapkie> | ok, I see |
| 16:46 | <mczapkie> | hex |
| 16:48 | <mczapkie> | I need to modify production depending on nearby tiles, but have no acces to negative indexes for industry |
| 16:48 | <mczapkie> | therefore I must make different layouts and check layout number |
| 16:50 | <andythenorth> | you can’t get negative offsets? |
| 16:50 | <andythenorth> | which cb is this? |
| 16:50 | <andythenorth> | iirc, most of them are signed |
| 16:50 | * | andythenorth might be wrong |
| 16:50 | <mczapkie> | for industry only 0..15 offset can be used |
| 16:50 | <mczapkie> | for industry tile positive or negative |
| 16:51 | <andythenorth> | are you checking for nearby houses or something? |
| 16:51 | <mczapkie> | I need to check vicinity around industry but can only south est |
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| 16:51 | <mczapkie> | no, river tiles for water treatment station |
| 16:51 | <mczapkie> | more tiles, highest production |
| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | your using var 62? |
| 16:52 | * | andythenorth wonders why it’s unsigned |
| 16:53 | <andythenorth> | how often does it change? You could check from the tile in a tile loop, or animation, and write to permanent storage in the industry |
| 16:53 | <mczapkie> | nearby_tile_water_class |
| 16:54 | <mczapkie> | basically one can assume that it can be checked once during construction |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | what if river is destroyed during game? |
| 16:59 | <mczapkie> | production will stay the same |
| 16:59 | <andythenorth> | yeah checking on construction makes sense then ;) |
| 17:00 | <andythenorth> | mczapkie: are you in this channel most days? |
| 17:00 | <mczapkie> | I'm using location check for tiles, prepared different layouts for different river tiles count and made industry production check based on var[44] |
| 17:01 | <mczapkie> | usually I have no time to stay on IRC, but today my wife went to another town :) |
| 17:01 | <andythenorth> | ha |
| 17:01 | <andythenorth> | my wife doesn’t care if I’m on irc or not, as long as dinner is made and the kitchen is tidy |
| 17:02 | <andythenorth> | making FIRS is more fun when other people are working on newgrfs too :P |
| 17:03 | <mczapkie> | BTW, how to enable compiling on jenkins? |
| 17:04 | <mczapkie> | somebody put one my project on jenkins but didn't figure how to perform it |
| 17:04 | <mczapkie> | with other project |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | you need the .devzone files |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | I’ll find the FIRS one |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/.devzone |
| 17:05 | <TrueBrain> | andythenorth: can you fix my dinner too? |
| 17:05 | <mczapkie> | thanks, I will check these for this project wich is already on jenkins |
| 17:06 | <andythenorth> | TrueBrain: yeah, in a bit |
| 17:06 | <andythenorth> | will you do my washing? |
| 17:07 | <mczapkie> | I tried to fix dinner once, but kitchen was not tidy aftermath |
| 17:07 | <TrueBrain> | least I can do I guess |
| 17:08 | <andythenorth> | so keep Iron Ore (because Kiruna mine is very big and served by big trains), or replace with frozen seafood? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic |
| 17:10 | <andythenorth> | this economy is very short on primary industry, I think keep iron ore |
| 17:11 | <mczapkie> | in my opinion, iron ore trade for bauxite is interesting option |
| 17:11 | <andythenorth> | it’s not weird? |
| 17:11 | <andythenorth> | it’s realistic :P |
| 17:12 | <mczapkie> | but from gameplay view, not sure about double use of chemials for aluminium plant and again metal workshop |
| 17:13 | <mczapkie> | maybe factory instead of metal workshop: metal+wood (Ikea etc) |
| 17:13 | <andythenorth> | interesting idea |
| 17:15 | <mczapkie> | this would give 2 independend sources for goods |
| 17:15 | <mczapkie> | now chemicals are double mandatory |
| 17:16 | <mczapkie> | 3 destination for chenicals is enough |
| 17:16 | <andythenorth> | yeah, chemicals became a fundamental cargo in FIRS, they seem to go everywhere :P |
| 17:17 | * | mczapkie is going AFK to finish ECSext |
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| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | bye |
| 17:17 | * | andythenorth bed |
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| 17:55 | <__ln__> | lupo della notte |
| 17:55 | <Wolf01> | lupo notturno |
| 18:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "la notte" was a tv show here that was not very kid-friendly :p |
| 18:01 | <Supercheese> | lupus noctis |
| 18:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Supercheese: not "nocturnis"? |
| 18:02 | <Supercheese> | I think "della notte" would imply a genitive "of the night" rather than an adjective "nocturnal" |
| 18:02 | <Supercheese> | but ymmv |
| 18:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i never know what ymmv is |
| 18:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and if you tell me, i'll forget by the next time someone writes it |
| 18:04 | <Supercheese> | eh perhaps not a good use of that, more like, "suit yourself". But it is "Your mileage may vary", referencing "EPA estimates X miles per gallon" but they disclaim that this is an estimate only and your particular mileage could be different |
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| 18:05 | <Supercheese> | in this case I perhaps should have instead said, "that's how I see it" |
| 18:06 | <Supercheese> | and most folks in Europe use liters and kilometers anyway rather than miles and gallons |
| 18:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Supercheese: sure, your reasoning is perfectly valid, but the premise that __ln__ knows what he's talking about may be unstable :p |
| 18:06 | <Supercheese> | perhaps ;) |
| 18:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'd rather trust an italian guy talking italian than a finnish guy talking italian :p |
| 18:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Supercheese: well, people in europe used to use miles, but the problem was that everybody used a different mile |
| 18:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | while the british imperial mile is around 1.6km, the german mile was 7.5km |
| 18:10 | <Supercheese> | yeah, Roman miles, Scots miles... |
| 18:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and the "german mile" was already a compromise between all the different miles used in the various german states |
| 18:10 | <Supercheese> | can't forget Nautical miles |
| 18:10 | <Supercheese> | sheesh |
| 18:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the common bit about all the german miles was "2 hours at walking speed" |
| 18:11 | <Supercheese> | well, I'm glad for automated unit conversions we have these days |
| 18:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or at least most of them |
| 18:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but "walking speed" isn't particularly standardized |
| 18:12 | <mczapkie> | OK, task finished (new water source for ECS is working) |
| 18:12 | <mczapkie> | Good Night everybody |
| 18:12 | <__ln__> | Eddi|zuHause: i've successfully ordered ice cream in italian. |
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| 18:12 | <Supercheese> | my handheld calculator at least has always been able to convert the units I needed automatically |
| 18:12 | <Supercheese> | __ln__: not gelato? :O |
| 18:13 | <__ln__> | Supercheese: well, gelato, but that's italian and this channel is english only |
| 18:13 | <Supercheese> | unless there isn't a distinction between the two in Italy |
| 18:13 | <Supercheese> | there sure is here at least |
| 18:13 | <Supercheese> | if you go to the store and ask where the "ice cream" is and the "gelato" is, you're pointed to two very different places |
| 18:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the distinction is not very strong in german. people just say "ice" and context defines which one is meant |
| 18:14 | <Supercheese> | and often two very different stores |
| 18:14 | <__ln__> | Wolf01: c'è una differencia entre gelato e ice cream? (pardon my half-spanish) |
| 18:14 | <Wolf01> | no |
| 18:14 | <Wolf01> | it's the same thing |
| 18:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe i just misunderstand what Supercheese is actually referring to |
| 18:16 | <Supercheese> | well, here in the States, gelato is not at all equivalent to ice cream, but perhaps elsewhere this is not the case |
| 18:16 | <Supercheese> | they are similar but very distinct |
| 18:18 | <Wolf01> | maybe gelato in the States is what we call "granita", which is just grounded ice with flavoured syrup |
| 18:18 | <__ln__> | "italian ice cream" (at least translated into some language, not necessarily in english) is a distinct concept elsewhere, too |
| 18:19 | <Supercheese> | yeah, I consider "Italian ice cream" and "gelato" synonymous |
| 18:19 | <Supercheese> | the latter being far more common;y used (and concise) |
| 18:20 | <Supercheese> | ly* |
| 18:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, there are different types of ice cream in germany. like "Speiseeis", which you'd usually serve as small balls in a cone or a glass. or "Softeis" which is squished out of a machine into a cone, or "Eis am Stiel", which is prefabricated on a stick, or "Wassereis" which is frozen water with usually some fruit taste. or simple "Eis" which is plain frozen water |
| 18:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "italian ice cream" places would usually serve the first kind |
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| 18:29 | <__ln__> | spaniards call it helado, but i think it's quite much the same type of thing as gelato that they sell in the heladerias. |
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| 18:35 | <drac_boy> | hi |
| 18:36 | * | drac_boy throws a metric steam valve wrench into sim-a12's direction :) |
| 18:36 | <drac_boy> | heh |
| 18:36 | <Supercheese> | a primary difference seems to be percent fat content, with gelato minimum 3.5% compared to ice cream's 10% |
| 18:36 | <Supercheese> | (butterfat, that is) |
| 18:46 | <Flygon> | Gelato is an independant product in Aussierand |
| 18:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've never looked at the fat content of these products |
| 18:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | PS: "low fat" usually means "more sugar", which is probably even worse... |
| 18:55 | <Supercheese> | yep... |
| 18:58 | <Wolf01> | oh finally i can use the logistic robots in factorio |
| 19:01 | <drac_boy> | hi wolf01 :) |
| 19:01 | <Wolf01> | o/ |
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| 19:03 | <drac_boy> | ah, meh :-s |
| 19:03 | <drac_boy> | oh well heh |
| 19:04 | <Flygon> | Eddi: And family wonders why I don't buy low fat |
| 19:04 | <Flygon> | Every time I got low fat |
| 19:04 | <Flygon> | I got fatter |
| 19:05 | <drac_boy> | flygon it really depends on food regulations tbh |
| 19:05 | <Flygon> | Ehh |
| 19:05 | <Flygon> | I would dare say America doesn't HAVE food regulations |
| 19:05 | <Flygon> | :B:B |
| 19:05 | <drac_boy> | here you can't hide fat/sodium under alternative logos at all |
| 19:06 | <Flygon> | (whipped cheese wasn't legally classifiable as a food in Australia @_@) |
| 19:06 | <Supercheese> | cheez whiz |
| 19:06 | <Supercheese> | blaauugh |
| 19:06 | <Flygon> | I aint sayin' they aint listed in the tables here. I'm just saying marketing overrides the ability to read a table. xP |
| 19:06 | <Flygon> | Supercheese: I promise not to can you |
| 19:06 | <Flygon> | Just promise not to ball me |
| 19:06 | <Supercheese> | blaaaaauuuugh |
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| 19:07 | <Supercheese> | maybe I'll use an apricorn instead |
| 19:07 | <Supercheese> | oldschool |
| 19:08 | <Flygon> | Sorry, someone's bad joke in a diff server actually crashed my IRC client |
| 19:08 | <Supercheese> | so... if you pun hard enough, you can break the Internet? |
| 19:09 | <Flygon> | Ys |
| 19:09 | <Flygon> | Yes* |
| 19:09 | <Flygon> | It didn't help that it was a subway joke |
| 19:10 | <drac_boy> | subway? not LUL i hope :) |
| 19:11 | <Flygon> | Oh, right |
| 19:11 | <Flygon> | I'm in #openttd, I forgot some countries call their metropolis train networks Subways |
| 19:11 | <Flygon> | Here, we just call it the Train Network :U |
| 19:12 | <Supercheese> | well, just undergrounds mostly |
| 19:12 | <Supercheese> | and the sub sandwich chain of restaurants :B |
| 19:13 | <drac_boy> | flygon I only mentioned that because I know a site that quoted strange/funny messages heard on the tanny in the LUL system :) |
| 19:13 | <Flygon> | (I still argue that a properly built Tram network is more convenient than a subway, combined with a long distance heavy rail. But, what do I know about transport planning xP) |
| 19:13 | <Flygon> | Yeah, Subway just known for their footlongs here |
| 19:13 | <Supercheese> | "What are your qualifications for transport design engineer?" "Well, I've played like, a billion games of OpenTTD..." |
| 19:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | some towns are even worse, they put a miniscule part of their tram underground, and put the subway sign on it |
| 19:13 | <drac_boy> | especially about an ex-plane captain now driving a tube and actually telling his passengers "we're at xxx altitude, temperature is xxx, timezone has not changed. have a good day!" |
| 19:14 | <drac_boy> | I wonder about that sort of things sometimes heh |
| 19:14 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Derp. |
| 19:14 | <Flygon> | drac_boy: Well, the SCMaglev trains are technically aircraft... |
| 19:14 | <Flygon> | They even have actual altitudes from the 'ground' |
| 19:14 | <Flygon> | Frankly, it's a plane without wings!!! |
| 19:15 | <drac_boy> | flygon as for transport planning .. you probably don't want to hire me if your city has a mess of underground sections :p |
| 19:15 | <Flygon> | Melbourne? Eh |
| 19:15 | <drac_boy> | otherwise just stay out of the way (and don't complain about art-isty wires in certain sections too) :) |
| 19:15 | <Flygon> | The only real 'subway' part of it is the City Loop in the CBD |
| 19:15 | <Flygon> | ?? What's wrong with wires? |
| 19:15 | <Flygon> | I'm terrified of third rail |
| 19:15 | <Flygon> | There's ZERO third rail networks in Australia! |
| 19:16 | <Flygon> | And the wires we do have, at least, in Melbourne, particulary with the Trams |
| 19:16 | <Flygon> | Are pretty well hidden |
| 19:16 | <drac_boy> | btw why 'art-isty' I meant more like it does not look lik e aindustrial cement pole holding a simple steel i-beam |
| 19:16 | <drac_boy> | thats the wrong way to go doing it but a lot of "cheap" cities apparently do it in these sort of ways |
| 19:16 | <Flygon> | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/E_6001_(Melbourne_tram)_in_Nicholson_St_on_route_96,_2013.JPG And this is actually on the 'worse' end of the spectrum for most of the network |
| 19:17 | <Flygon> | http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/06/06/kn_tramsjpeg_wideweb__470x301,0.jpg Though, there is some exeptionally messy bits :B |
| 19:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's more commonly steel poles here, i think |
| 19:17 | <Supercheese> | Flygon: looks like San Francisco's muni trams/trolleybuses |
| 19:17 | <Supercheese> | the overhead wire network, at least |
| 19:18 | <Flygon> | Supercheese: SanFran is Northern Hemisphere Tram capital. Melbourne is Southern Hemisphere Tram capital |
| 19:18 | <Flygon> | Not too surprised by some potentially shared styles/technologies xP |
| 19:18 | <Supercheese> | Ha, I see |
| 19:18 | <drac_boy> | umm...yeah too many wires period .. :) |
| 19:18 | <drac_boy> | btw flygon..you aussie and we used to talk a bit about some of the older trains especially the red slamdoors right? |
| 19:19 | <Flygon> | Too many wires? Hardly |
| 19:19 | <Flygon> | Red slamdoors? That's a new one |
| 19:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the weirdest part of that image is the tram driving on the wrong side |
| 19:20 | <drac_boy> | I forgot the name..something about victorian emu with only one window (as the position for 2nd one wasn't there) for the cab ... and the side profile almost looked same as a normal coach if it wasn't for the pantographs |
| 19:20 | <Flygon> | (excuse the instagram filter) http://41.media.tumblr.com/84ddabaa307c874142b7576f146a07db/tumblr_nvdsssi0hl1uwtj3no1_1280.jpg There's hardly any wires here! |
| 19:20 | <Flygon> | drac_boy: You mean Red Rattler? |
| 19:20 | <drac_boy> | "any wires"? well THAT is how I would do it to be honest :) .. just one long line per route/track :) |
| 19:21 | <Flygon> | There was the Swing Door and Sliding Door varieties |
| 19:21 | <Flygon> | The Swing Doors tended to get their doors lobbed off by bridges and tunnels |
| 19:21 | <drac_boy> | flygon .. ah... yep thats it http://www.victorianrailways.net/photogallery/gall03/03-03.jpg |
| 19:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i genuinely despise people who deliberately take colours out of pictures |
| 19:21 | <Flygon> | As in... people left them unlocked, then the EMU would hit 80-100 |
| 19:21 | <drac_boy> | and btw I don't recall .. whats with that weird "hump" around the cab? |
| 19:21 | <Flygon> | And then the doors hit some tight clearance areas |
| 19:22 | <Flygon> | The hump? |
| 19:22 | <Flygon> | The EMUs were built in the 1870s-1880s |
| 19:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there was a guy who had colour pictures from like the 1950's. and he took the fricking colours out! |
| 19:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and it even looked terrible! |
| 19:22 | <Flygon> | It was the cestorly (I know I spelt that wrong) styling of the time |
| 19:22 | <Flygon> | They got EMUized in the 1920s |
| 19:23 | <Flygon> | Or - The hump serves no purpose whatsoever apart from looking cool |
| 19:23 | <drac_boy> | flygon well in that photo I found .. it seem like theres supposed to be something beside the destination board taking up space in that full-width hump over the cab section itself |
| 19:23 | <Flygon> | Oh, yes. I forgot about the desto board |
| 19:23 | <Flygon> | But apart from that, no real purpose |
| 19:24 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Now you know how I feel about American/European driving directions xP |
| 19:24 | <drac_boy> | heh looks a little strange .. and the airhorn apparently appear to be mounted behind the hump .. can't wonder what it would sound like if the driver left these sideway-sliding windows opened! |
| 19:24 | <Flygon> | Or - I find it impossible to play OTTD in Right-side driving x.x |
| 19:25 | <Flygon> | drac_boy: I'm not sure if the windows were openable or not |
| 19:25 | <Flygon> | Considering they were from the 1870s-1880s |
| 19:25 | <drac_boy> | flygon well the two sections are not overlaid .. it looks like theres enough offset for one to slide over the other one |
| 19:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | at least in germany, humps like this were common in the time of separately braked and unbraked wagons, so the train leader can oversee brake operators on the whole train |
| 19:26 | <drac_boy> | eddi .. well this one is a bit odd because the cab window is to the right side but the hump's window is to the left side |
| 19:26 | <drac_boy> | (unless they're using engineer/fireman placement difference) |
| 19:27 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Considering the age of the carriages, that might actually be the reason |
| 19:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the train leader is someone separate from the train driver |
| 19:27 | <Flygon> | They were originally locomotive hauled (duh), and the carriage portion would have a guard at the rear end monitoring the carriages |
| 19:27 | <drac_boy> | flygon but anyway ... the main reason I bought this up now is because heh well I'm just curious .. were there much of any third rail running in australia? |
| 19:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | drac_boy: the upper window would need some elevated ground under it, it would probably not be advisable to have that overlap with the drivers cab |
| 19:29 | <Flygon> | drac_boy: Virtually non-existant |
| 19:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so a window on the cab side would have no purpose |
| 19:29 | <Flygon> | 600v would've been too low for the heavy rail lines anyway |
| 19:29 | <Flygon> | So we jumped right to 1500vDC in the 1910s and used overhead |
| 19:31 | <drac_boy> | flygon heh I had to ask anyway |
| 19:31 | <Flygon> | And I'd bet the only reason the Trams used 600v was due to that being the only thing available for the same period |
| 19:32 | <Flygon> | As in |
| 19:32 | <Flygon> | Same period being... |
| 19:32 | <Flygon> | 1890s for the Trams |
| 19:32 | <Flygon> | My language skills are subpar |
| 19:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 600V is pretty common for trams |
| 19:33 | <drac_boy> | at least overhead isn't hard to do especially when you got the option for Sommerfeldt if you don't want make it yourself http://www.sommerfeldt.de/index.html |
| 19:33 | <Flygon> | "Pretty common". Dude, it's THE Tram voltage :D |
| 19:33 | <drac_boy> | (just my own random not) |
| 19:33 | <drac_boy> | note* |
| 19:34 | <drac_boy> | flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for |
| 19:35 | <Flygon> | iirc, Melbourne's Trams probably use AC motors |
| 19:35 | <Flygon> | As in, the modern ones |
| 19:35 | <Flygon> | Do NOT quote me on this though |
| 19:36 | <drac_boy> | btw interesting little tidbit...the pre-overhead third rail electrification used for the Grand Central Terminal (or was it a different station name?) was also at like 500-700V too as this was direct feed to the resistor taps for the motors |
| 19:36 | * | Flygon nod |
| 19:37 | <Flygon> | I do think the 'electrics only' rule is a tad silly |
| 19:37 | <drac_boy> | so yeah some of the small locomotives that came out in the middle between 3rd rail still being active and overhead elsewhere being built out actually had a dual lowdc+11Kac supply |
| 19:37 | <Flygon> | Hell, even the City Loop in Melbourne is practically designed to handle Diesels. Despite being designed mainly just for EMUs |
| 19:37 | <drac_boy> | flygon well you have to think of what it was like back then .. combustion powered was a very small niche so it was mainly steam or the then-expanding electrics |
| 19:38 | <Flygon> | drac: Doesn't mean the legislation imposing this isn't outdated now |
| 19:38 | <Flygon> | With proper ventalation, Diesel really isn't a problem |
| 19:38 | <Flygon> | Granted, this is also a partial problem with the City Loop |
| 19:39 | <drac_boy> | even the cleveland station (even if the track layouts don't seem to suggest it) was usually with steam being electric-hauled out of the station ... the electrification only finally died rapidly when large number of trains became emd hauled (hint: diesels) |
| 19:39 | <Flygon> | (the ventalation systems required are a tad expensive to run, so, they prefer advance warning. This doesn't mean that the random DMUs/Loco pax. trains routed through there immediately kill everyone, just that they prefer not to do that xP) |
| 19:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for <-- i don't think modern trams have DC engines in them. usually it's transformed to 3-phase onboard |
| 19:39 | <Flygon> | (and, yes, we have accidentally routed Diesel trains through our underground system. Metrol appear to smoke crack as part of their diet or something) |
| 19:40 | <Flygon> | (thank goodness a freighter hasn't been routed, yet) |
| 19:41 | <drac_boy> | flygon mind you for a short time (this was mentioned in the station story I read before anyway) a lot of the diesels were rerouted to other works so steam had to fill in the gaps [and the electrics were more often absent as well] and not surprisingly the railroad became embarrased when the smoke regulators caught onto this |
| 19:42 | <Flygon> | Awkward |
| 19:42 | <Flygon> | (Steam locos were used to shunt randomly here throughout into the 70s, but... obviously, almost our entire metropolis network is above ground |
| 19:42 | <drac_boy> | I imagine .. just for you to know the station had a large uphill curved viaduct to deal with on the south side .. so thats why the electric bankers existed till diesels ousted them |
| 19:43 | <Flygon> | (I'm not sure if any Steam locos have actually run live through the City Loop. Don't think the ventalation system is designed for it) |
| 19:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i once read a story on how a steam engine was used during construction of the Munich S-Bahn line under the city |
| 19:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because no other engine was available, apparently |
| 19:45 | <drac_boy> | flygon the funny thing is that a lot of the photos for electric-hauled trains out of CUT would more than often show a steady cloud of semi-white smoke coming out from all 6-8 drive axles .. I could be wrong but I suspect they were hitting the throttle hard with sander wide open |
| 19:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (this was prior to the munich olympic games, so in the 1970s, when steam was already on its way out, so this was like a museum engine that happened to be nearby) |
| 19:46 | <drac_boy> | just haven't noticed photos like that at any of the other electrified stations in northwest usa (or at least per PRR/NH) |
| 19:46 | <Flygon> | drac_boy: I was assuming they had a boiler used for the braking and heating systems |
| 19:47 | <Flygon> | Eddi: That'd randomly happen with VR here |
| 19:47 | <Flygon> | And the reason you see the (then) 100 year old EMUs running about in the 1980s photographed |
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| 19:48 | <drac_boy> | flygon well..the boiler was a bit rare and even then it usually was of a donkey style boiler with the smoke stack fitted to the roof |
| 19:48 | <Flygon> | Steam locos would randomly haul pax. too. Helped that most were either as or more powerful than their replacement Diesels @_@ |
| 19:48 | <drac_boy> | only the GG1 were knowingly ordered with steam heating by design |
| 19:48 | <drac_boy> | (although they went through two generations..the early steam-like boiler and the later electric-heated-water "diesel era" boiler) |
| 19:49 | <Flygon> | (the R-class locos, when recommissioned by a private railway (West Coast Railways) in the 1990s and 00s would actually outperform the Diesels they ran. Despite being 40-50 years old at the time. They usually ran in MU operation with a Diesel, though) |
| 19:49 | <Flygon> | Hell, V/Line nowadays are practically running museum piece Diesels. A66 is still running, despite being about over 65 years old now. |
| 19:50 | <drac_boy> | btw heres one of these few locomotives that were common around the CUT areas till diesels killed them http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1299/cut218.jpg |
| 19:50 | <drac_boy> | and the long platforms was a rather normal thing back then re fitting more traction axles without having to make the body longer to match |
| 19:50 | <Flygon> | https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5L3g-fOfYds/maxresdefault.jpg It runs on sheer absurdity |
| 19:50 | <drac_boy> | (plus a small degree of road crossing protection as well although I dunno about that) |
| 19:50 | <Flygon> | (sadly, the three other A's V/Line still 'have' are permanantly shut down. Mainly to provide spare parts for A66) |
| 19:51 | <Flygon> | drac, that's one of the weirdest looking electric locos I've seen |
| 19:52 | <drac_boy> | flygon well what else do you expect from usa during the 1910-1940's period? :) |
| 19:52 | <Flygon> | Streamliners everywhere? xP |
| 19:52 | <Flygon> | Then again, VR of the same period made some pretty clunky electric locos too |
| 19:52 | <drac_boy> | btw New Haven also was one of the only very few rare places in usa that you could actually find a double-cab carbody unit (NH's was electric but florida's was diesel-electric) |
| 19:53 | <drac_boy> | otherwise (as you probably knew) all carbody diesels elsewhere in usa were of the single cab variety (aside to the booster units themself) |
| 19:53 | <Flygon> | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/E1101steeplecab.jpg http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/e/e1102slv.jpg |
| 19:53 | <drac_boy> | one sec... |
| 19:53 | <Flygon> | They're both mechanically the same, note |
| 19:53 | <drac_boy> | http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0105/nh364.jpg heres the NH electric one |
| 19:54 | <Flygon> | (they ran off the same electrical equipment as the Red Rattlers, just.... in locomotive form) |
| 19:54 | <Flygon> | (even the bogies are the same EMU ones) |
| 19:54 | <Flygon> | drac_boy: 404 |
| 19:55 | <Flygon> | "The exposure of the driver to this electrical equipment led to them being nicknamed "electric chairs" among drivers.". VR drivers must've been enthusiastic for their locos :U |
| 19:55 | <drac_boy> | hmm one sec |
| 19:56 | <drac_boy> | heres the slight newer version instead https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5069/5675549229_a0df90e6a5_b.jpg |
| 19:56 | <drac_boy> | don't mind THAT paintjob .. it was one that didn't live for a long time anyhow |
| 19:56 | <Flygon> | Interesting design |
| 19:56 | <Flygon> | Somehow thought the NH on the hood was Kanji for a second there |
| 19:56 | <drac_boy> | I'm not sure how much the dual cab configuration got used tbh .. someone would have to check an usa book that talked about them I guess |
| 19:57 | <Flygon> | VR used Dual-cab where possible on the urban network |
| 19:57 | <Flygon> | They didn't want to mess around with turning locomotives around |
| 19:57 | <Flygon> | A lot of old video of VR's operations tends to show tank locos running in reverse hauling a set |
| 19:58 | <Flygon> | They're sprightly little buggers too |
| 19:58 | <drac_boy> | well C&NW simply used push-pull mode instead ... although early on sometimes the mushup could be a bit funny (nothing like a light freight locomotive hauling an E8 which is then hauling three bilevel coaches ... and theres nowwhere to turn this around either) |
| 19:59 | <drac_boy> | flygon .. lol you mentioning tank reminds me of a crazy canadian story I read before (probably still have the magazine too) .... |
| 20:00 | <drac_boy> | the CN commuter (when VIA didn't think of existing yet ofc) train .. well .. lets say that some of them had to turn around in montreal ... normal orders calls for the train to stop on track A then the locomotive run around via B while the coaches are being loaded ... |
| 20:01 | <drac_boy> | but soon enough someone seem to had figured out to simply slow down the train a bit then run the locomotive directly onto B while the coaches themself drift into platform still staying on A .. then the locomotive back out to couple on (and even with the railroad police watching too, apparently noone cared!) |
| 20:01 | <drac_boy> | this probably saved a lot of time (and only having to throw one turnout alone) |
| 20:01 | <Flygon> | xP |
| 20:01 | <Flygon> | Just remembered a recent story from here... |
| 20:01 | <Flygon> | Basically |
| 20:02 | <Flygon> | A66 hauling a set accidentally got routed into Souther Cross Platform 1... |
| 20:02 | <Flygon> | Which's the main INTERSTATE platform |
| 20:02 | <Flygon> | And has zero runaround facilities for locomotives... |
| 20:02 | <Flygon> | ...and it got routed into the platform at the same time the XPT was due to go into it |
| 20:02 | <Flygon> | And there was no other spare DG/SG platforms for the XPT to go into |
| 20:03 | <Flygon> | Combine this with V/Line having no shunters nearby (because they aren't just about to reverse into the businest bit of track in Australia) |
| 20:03 | <drac_boy> | so where did the xpt really stop at? :) |
| 20:03 | <Flygon> | And the fact that the only other thing nearby wouldn't have been able to couple to it if it wanted to to pull it out (the XPT) |
| 20:03 | <Flygon> | Well... the XPT had to wait an hour |
| 20:04 | <drac_boy> | either way this is one of the things that used to push/haul the commuter trains on CN lines a long time ago https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5492/14438163030_0b64b80f52_b.jpg and yep I know it almost could seem like someone rammed a short 2-axle tender into the cab ... as it seem "big" for a tank bunker :) |
| 20:05 | <Flygon> | V/Line had to quickly run a Y-Class locomotive out (quickly being a relative term... they max out at 65km/h. And they had to get spare paths to drive through. And this is in the dead middle of peak hour) |
| 20:05 | <Flygon> | In the ent |
| 20:05 | <Flygon> | end* |
| 20:05 | <Flygon> | V/Line were furious. Metrol were furious. Centrol were furious. Metro were furious. Trains for New South Wales were furious. |
| 20:05 | <drac_boy> | heh well "quick" has different definitions to different people you ask :P |
| 20:05 | <Flygon> | All because one single train accidentally got routed to the wrong regional platform |
| 20:05 | <Flygon> | (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Y129_VLine.jpg These're the Y-Class btw) |
| 20:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so the other train was too long to fit both trains on the platform? |
| 20:06 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Wrong gauge |
| 20:06 | <Flygon> | Victoria uses 1600mm, New South Wales uses 1435mm |
| 20:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how does that matter? |
| 20:06 | <Flygon> | And Southern Cross has two Dual-Gauge platforms. The other dual-gauge platform was occupied. |
| 20:06 | <drac_boy> | eddi...dual-gauge does not always cover an entire station for cost reasons as I recall |
| 20:08 | <Flygon> | Not just cost reasons |
| 20:08 | <drac_boy> | even then in europe (I know this is unrelated) there used to be some stations that for example if there was 3 separate platform tracks .. first one would only have 1500vdc, third one only had 11000vac, and the middle one had special signals re being switchable-voltage one (probably treated as a nonstop routing too) |
| 20:08 | <Flygon> | It makes designing points a pita |
| 20:08 | <Flygon> | And imposes speed limits for the DG half |
| 20:08 | <Flygon> | Er, for the BG half |
| 20:09 | <Flygon> | But, yeah |
| 20:09 | <Flygon> | Crap like this is why Victorians want the entire state to be SGized already |
| 20:09 | <drac_boy> | flygon heh about points .. I know theres one station that had two tracks but in an interesting design only one was dualgauge so it could sometimes make for funny looking operation where eg train leaves platform 2 .. cross over to track 1 for only one hundred meters .. then cross back to track 2 to get to the immediate mainline just so it can stay on its own gauge |
| 20:10 | <Flygon> | An entire portion of the busiest regional railway station in the country shouldn't be disabled because someone accidentally pressed the wrong button |
| 20:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | drac_boy: i know that Brenner station had (or still has) non-switchable voltage up to the middle of the platform. so the engine has to turn off power on the way into the station, run powerless to the end, and be pulled out by shunters |
| 20:10 | <Flygon> | (I note btw, that the only reason V/Line would've sent a Y instead of an N is due to all their Ns being busy with peak hour duties) |
| 20:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Brenner being the border station between austria and italy |
| 20:11 | <Flygon> | (the Ys are only spare surplus in peak due to being so pathetically weak in the modern context) |
| 20:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, the highest point of the mountainous route |
| 20:12 | <drac_boy> | eddi .. heh well there was a switzerland (I believe it was the standard gauge side) train depot that a certain small fleet of emu's used .. well now the problem is it was wrong voltage .. but in a twist of fate most of the approaching track is downhill sloped .. so the emu in question simply would coast into the depot .. then after done one of the depot shunter (looks bit like the Kof II but not exactly one) would push it back uphill out of the way |
| 20:12 | <drac_boy> | flygon .. were the Y the ones that always never could get much of any trains up to any kind of speeds? or thats what I kinda recall from our chats before |
| 20:14 | <Flygon> | The Ys were designed for low use branchlines |
| 20:14 | <Flygon> | Cheap to run, and the branchlines rarely had speed limits over 65km/h |
| 20:14 | <Flygon> | As soon as they built up a big fleet of Ys the branchlines began shutting down |
| 20:15 | <Flygon> | So VR were suddenly left with a lot of 640hp locos that couldn't break over 65km/h |
| 20:15 | <drac_boy> | aha .. yeah I think I can see the resemblence .. there were some usa trains that were happy working slow but as soon as you tried kick them (re speed) they got horrible about it |
| 20:15 | <Flygon> | They tried to repurpose them for mainline duties but... that ended badly. Passengers despised them |
| 20:15 | <Flygon> | (they were built in the 60s-70s) |
| 20:16 | <Flygon> | So, they all got cascaded down to freight as additional horsepower. Which they actually did a decent job as |
| 20:16 | <drac_boy> | flygon oh btw it may sound weird but for a while on a particular older commuter railroad they sometimes only had one EMD E unit for a train and this was just about enough to run headend power but left little for traction purpose so they usually would just run one of their freight locomotive for traction .. now the thing is these were geared for only like 60-70kph maximum... |
| 20:16 | <Flygon> | And at least one got regeared for 90km/h as a commissioners loco (that is... one that's driven by the railway commissioner to dawdle about the network. No need to haul anything) |
| 20:17 | <drac_boy> | but it at least helped that even if they were slow .. the station lengths were very close together and these slow thing could really get up to full speed quite fast .. so the normal schedule wasn't too hard to follow |
| 20:17 | * | Flygon nod |
| 20:17 | <Flygon> | (the Ys that are still in existances are just used for shunting. They're too slow and weak to be useful for freight) |
| 20:18 | <drac_boy> | probably helped that there was no food service .. could you imagine trying to not spill your drinks every time the train threatened to take off like a kangaroo :) |
| 20:18 | <Flygon> | (and yet the Ts still keep going) |
| 20:18 | <Flygon> | Cup holders xP |
| 20:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've never heard of food service on commuter trains |
| 20:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | is that a thing that happens in america? |
| 20:19 | <Flygon> | (http://www.australiansteam.com/vic/y112.jpg The oldest serving locomotive in Victoria is Y112... different class, just the same letter. VR liked to reuse class letters xP) |
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| 20:21 | <drac_boy> | eddi well some lines would have basic coldbar service .. this usually died out during the ever-ongoing price cuts in 1960-1970's tho |
| 20:22 | <drac_boy> | although the "amfleet" named amtrak trains did have a bit of unusual exception |
| 20:22 | <Flygon> | (https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5347/9357611218_30fea920bd_b.jpg This'd be the weakest VR locomotive I could possibly find (that isn't from the 1850s xP) |
| 20:22 | <Flygon> | 150hp, 20km/h max. Diesel-Hydralic Shunter |
| 20:22 | <drac_boy> | actually I kinda like that sort of thing .. especially for to move one wagon around cheaply with just a single man needed :) |
| 20:23 | <drac_boy> | and btw sorry about this but I kinda need to go for now..maybe talk more another time :-s |
| 20:23 | <Flygon> | Currently used as a Steamrail Victoria shunter |
| 20:23 | <Flygon> | Have fun! |
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| 20:24 | <Flygon> | https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamrail/6856245098/in/album-72157629268389204/ Kind of odd seeing Steamrail Victoria's pair of these hauling stuff around |
| 20:24 | <Flygon> | Even FREAKIER to realize the steam locomotive it's hauling is about the same age as it |
| 20:24 | <Flygon> | There's a reason the R-class are such good steam locos. They're the last of their kind x.x |
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| 20:25 | <Flygon> | Oh, I was wrong |
| 20:25 | <Flygon> | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/VR_RT20.JPG THESE are the weakest machines VR ran... |
| 20:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in our local branch of the DB Museum, they have a battery powered shunter |
| 20:28 | <Flygon> | Battery powered shunter? |
| 20:28 | <Flygon> | Yowee O_o |
| 20:28 | <Flygon> | Do they just swap the batteries over at a specific point and charge the batteries constantly on cycle? |
| 20:28 | <Flygon> | Or do they plug the loco itself in? |
| 20:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they probably plug it in |
| 20:29 | <Flygon> | Gotcha |
| 20:29 | <Flygon> | I do reckon battery is actually extremely suitable for EMU use... |
| 20:29 | <Flygon> | The question is |
| 20:29 | <Flygon> | Would the companies be willing to convert stations into battery exchange points? |
| 20:30 | <Flygon> | Say, you're going from Melbourne to Echuca... good 250-300km long trip |
| 20:30 | <Flygon> | For two of the stops, the EMU parks, and gets it's batteries swapped over automatically by hardware under the railway station platform |
| 20:30 | <Flygon> | So it never runs out of charge |
| 20:30 | <Flygon> | Akin to a steam locomotive being given more water... |
| 20:30 | <Flygon> | And such a process wouldn't be very slow, either. It'd be quick |
| 20:30 | <Flygon> | Why has nobody designed this? |
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| 20:31 | <Flygon> | It'd be cheaper than electrifying, while offering most of the benefits... |
| 20:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | germany had some battery powered railcars operating branch lines |
| 20:35 | <sim-al2> | Japan has a battery EMU with overhead wire charging |
| 20:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, i wondered a while back why that isn't more common |
| 20:35 | <sim-al2> | Cost I suppose, a diesel car is pretty flexible |
| 20:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | instead of electric/diesel hybrids, do electric/battery hybrids |
| 20:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | most lines nowadays are under wire at least on one end |
| 20:37 | <sim-al2> | I assume the train can run on overhead normally, but the station segment on the line is only the length of the platform |
| 20:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, just schedule an hour of waiting time after each trip to recharge |
| 20:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or so. |
| 20:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i also don't quite know why battery service was discontinued (besides of age of vehicles) |
| 20:40 | <sim-al2> | I bet flexiblilty would be a factor, you could fuel up a DMU and send it somewhere else as a (slowish) express train |
| 20:41 | <sim-al2> | This is the Japanese unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV-E301_series |
| 20:42 | <sim-al2> | 25 km battery run |
| 20:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the german railcars had longer range, i think |
| 20:44 | <sim-al2> | I don't know what the actual range is, one article implied at least 50km |
| 20:44 | <sim-al2> | Also this one has air conditioning and the other nice things |
| 20:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this is a very old one: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittfeld-Akkumulatortriebwagen |
| 20:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and this a more modern one https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_ETA_150 |
| 20:46 | <sim-al2> | The nose is almost like a Crocidile locomotive, but then it's compartments behind it |
| 20:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it says range 300km on that last one |
| 20:47 | <sim-al2> | At slow speed maybe |
| 20:47 | <sim-al2> | Pretty long life though |
| 20:48 | <Flygon> | According to some friends in another channel |
| 20:48 | <Flygon> | Main thing preventing hotswapping batteries is mechanical wear |
| 20:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | of the electrical contacts, probably |
| 20:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | batteries have the problem of being really heavy |
| 20:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | for very little energy stored |
| 20:49 | <sim-al2> | Hanging an engine is not that light either :) |
| 20:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you still need an engine :p |
| 20:50 | <sim-al2> | Fuel though, is damn good on energy density |
| 20:50 | <sim-al2> | A little electric motor doesn't have to be heavy anymore |
| 20:51 | <Flygon> | Friends also point out that Aussie environment means strong aircons... |
| 20:52 | <Flygon> | You'd need backup Diesel for hot days |
| 20:52 | <sim-al2> | I guess the question is whether battery maintanence or engine mainanence costs more. The way I see it, diesel engines will only get more and more expensive... |
| 20:52 | <sim-al2> | I suppose it can be done, the Aussie DMUs already have aux engines anyway |
| 20:52 | <sim-al2> | For some reason... |
| 20:53 | <Flygon> | aux engines? |
| 20:53 | <Flygon> | I don't know about New South Wales, but |
| 20:54 | <Flygon> | The VLocity series in Victoria has two Diesel engines per carriages |
| 20:54 | <Flygon> | Only one at a time can actually power the hydralic transmission |
| 20:54 | <sim-al2> | NSW Hunters: An auxiliary 150 kW Cummins 6ISBe-G1 diesel engine drives a Newage Stamford UCI274H alternator to supply power for the air conditioning and lighting. |
| 20:54 | <Flygon> | iirc, there's also an electric motor per carriage too. But I forgot if that's a silly rumor, or proof that the VLos are powered by raw overkill |
| 20:55 | <Flygon> | Ahhhh |
| 20:55 | <Flygon> | NSW Hunters are in the same family as the VLocities! They're siblings :3 |
| 20:55 | <Flygon> | The parent being the Xplorer/Endeavor series |
| 20:55 | <sim-al2> | I don't see what an electric motor would do unless they have battery jog |
| 20:55 | <Flygon> | Yes, I'm serious about there being railway geneology |
| 20:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | extra power for train heating/electricity is not that uncommon i believe |
| 20:56 | <sim-al2> | Yeah, all they have the same QSK19 and aux engine |
| 20:56 | <Flygon> | sim: They're reportedly battery powered |
| 20:56 | <sim-al2> | In 'Merica, we steal it from the locomotive |
| 20:56 | <Flygon> | But... again, uncomfirmed |
| 20:56 | <Flygon> | I don't have the detailed technical specs on me, and my locomotive book both only does Aussie locomotives |
| 20:56 | <Flygon> | And it only covers the 1850s to 1990s |
| 20:56 | <sim-al2> | Some US locomotives were built with the ability to power a motor from the batteries for shop moves |
| 20:57 | <sim-al2> | Also quite a few units with hydraulic transmissions (the turbine powered things) had an electric motor so they could run into Grand Central Terminal on 3rd rail |
| 20:58 | <Flygon> | Oh, I've been grossly misinformed and confused |
| 20:58 | <Flygon> | The VLos do still have just one motor per carriage |
| 20:58 | <Flygon> | Just big 750hp ones |
| 20:58 | <sim-al2> | Yeah, I was going to ask where they shoved another :) |
| 20:58 | <Flygon> | Where the hell did I get told they had two motors per carriage... |
| 20:58 | <sim-al2> | Lots of DMUs do, just not hugenormous ones |
| 20:58 | <Flygon> | Still, they're grossly overkill |
| 20:58 | <Flygon> | They're actually capable of out-accelerating a fair bit of the electric fleet here |
| 20:59 | <sim-al2> | Nah, if you want to get up to 160km/h with a carriage that meets safety and comfort standards, that's a good thing to have |
| 20:59 | <sim-al2> | I wonder how much fuel they use though, compared to the locomotive trains |
| 21:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the hugenotts have engines now? |
| 21:00 | <Flygon> | sim: They suck more fuel than anyone in the industry wants to admit |
| 21:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | man, these 18th century french protestant refugees are ressourceful :p |
| 21:00 | <Flygon> | They were designed as regional HSTs |
| 21:00 | <Flygon> | But they're currently being used as 160km/h interurbans instead |
| 21:01 | <sim-al2> | Well they wanted a diesel train with electric performance... |
| 21:01 | <Flygon> | Reportedly, in testing, the VLo units hit 210-225km/h for stress testing... so |
| 21:01 | <sim-al2> | Dammmmmnnnnnn |
| 21:01 | <Flygon> | I would personally consider them HSTs. The transmission is expicitly designed for 200km/h |
| 21:01 | <Flygon> | But the railway related beaurocracy here is bloody nuts |
| 21:02 | <Flygon> | 160 was chosen as to not require in-cab signalling. Any faster was deemed unsafe because they were worried drivers wouldn't see the signals |
| 21:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | trains have to be able to run comfortably at 110% of max speed |
| 21:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so if they're designed for 200, they must be able to test run at 220 |
| 21:02 | <Flygon> | And by 160 I mean, they're still allowed 10% overspeed. A late VLo running 177km/h is not uncommon. But the computer will emergency brake if it's going ay faster. |
| 21:02 | <sim-al2> | That's a mechanical thing though, the limits choose allow a safery margin |
| 21:02 | <Flygon> | And, Eddi has a point |
| 21:03 | <Flygon> | Given how old the XPT is... and that the XPT is being retired and replaced |
| 21:03 | <sim-al2> | Amtrak specs all the equipment at 135 mph for extra margin |
| 21:03 | <sim-al2> | Wow 177? That's a big margin |
| 21:03 | <Flygon> | My ideal XPT replacement would just be a souped up VLocity built for 220km/h... you'd need to fix up a few lines, allow for in-cab signalling, and get such a concept past the beaurocracy |
| 21:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @calc 135*1.6 |
| 21:04 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 216 |
| 21:04 | <Flygon> | But even if the DMU wouldn't be allowed to hit it's real top speed, it's a reasonable futureproofing to design for. And given it'd be parts (and presumably couplable) to the VLocity, Hunter, and Xplorer series anyway... |
| 21:04 | <Flygon> | But, I'm armcharing the hell out of this |
| 21:05 | <Flygon> | In the end, I'd just use the VLocity as a derivative for sheer convenience |
| 21:06 | <sim-al2> | Trust me, if you don't want them I would take them |
| 21:06 | <Flygon> | Bonus points that the VLo has another sibling class running about in Western Australia explicitly designed for 200km/h (the current WA Prospector DMU units). The only real differences between both sets is the internal seating arrangements, catering, and the computers having different auto-emergency brake speeds |
| 21:07 | <sim-al2> | Sounds like you guys have the basis for the One True DMU |
| 21:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you know that in civilized countries, trains run at scheduled 300km/h... |
| 21:08 | <sim-al2> | They also didn't spend the money to have a complete highway network instead |
| 21:08 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Believe me, most of the population here DOES want an interstate HST |
| 21:08 | <Flygon> | An electric one |
| 21:09 | <Flygon> | But... we've instead become ridiculously good at building Diesel HSTs in a country that doesn't even have HST infrastructure |
| 21:09 | <Flygon> | Well, I mean... we have the infrastructure. The beaurocrats just pretend we don't. xP |
| 21:10 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
| 21:10 | <sim-al2> | That would great here, the one HST project under way right now is in Florida |
| 21:10 | <sim-al2> | night |
| 21:10 | -!- | Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] |
| 21:10 | <Flygon> | Night Wo- dammit |
| 21:11 | <Flygon> | sim: What about the California HST? |
| 21:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: unrelated, but what happened to the plan to destry half the barrier reef to expand coal mining? |
| 21:11 | <sim-al2> | Ok perhaps, but there's still room for a sneak attack to kill it |
| 21:11 | <Flygon> | (the real problem is... the two most politically popular HST lines are also the two hardest to build. Because you'd be dealing with building through the middle of a mountain range for both of them) |
| 21:11 | <Flygon> | Eddi: I wish I knew |
| 21:12 | <Flygon> | sim: True =/ |
| 21:12 | <sim-al2> | Assuming that California doesn't start cutting everything to stay afloat |
| 21:12 | <Flygon> | The EASIEST HST line to build is Melbourne-Adelaide. The Melbourne-Ballarat portion has already been RFRified (meaning, HSR but we limit the speed to 160km/h because lol) |
| 21:12 | <sim-al2> | There's some speed upgrade programs, but those are improvements to existing services |
| 21:12 | <Flygon> | But nobody likes Adelaide |
| 21:13 | <Flygon> | And there's railway gauge problems to boot... |
| 21:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: so, the country is 95% flat desert, and they want to build the HSTs exactly at the 5% mountains? |
| 21:13 | <sim-al2> | Lol, South Australia, the state no one knows about |
| 21:13 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Our two biggest metropolises are integrated into the mountains |
| 21:13 | <Flygon> | In fact |
| 21:13 | <sim-al2> | 90% of the population is sane and lives on the coast |
| 21:13 | <Flygon> | Sydney's actually hit a serious urban growth barrier problem because of their mountains |
| 21:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: isn't like singapore the size of half of sydney, while having more population than all of australia combined? |
| 21:14 | <Flygon> | But... yeah. Melbourne-Adelaide is easy. Most of the existing alignment is straight as hell. Just whack in an extra pair of tracks adjacent... the only real problems after that |
| 21:14 | <sim-al2> | This is the Florida HST locomotive: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3860/15167931610_3493ddf87c_b.jpg |
| 21:16 | <Flygon> | Are the Bacchus Marsh horseshoe curve (but the town'd probably be bypassed anyay), Adelaide Hills (which's... a mountain range. An incredibly frustrating one), gauge differences (which can be eliminated sorta by converting the Ballarat line to SG anyway (thus giving Ballan a HST stop instead), giving Ballarat a dedicated SG metro service, and extending the BG urban line to Bacchus Marsh), and the fact that despite it being t |
| 21:16 | <Flygon> | he single easiest HST line to build, there'd be no real political goodwill for it because most of the seats it goes through are safe seats. |
| 21:16 | <sim-al2> | I think, I just found something that shows a different design, but that model is from Siemens and the other one isn't |
| 21:17 | <Flygon> | And from a federal perspective, only benefits primarially Victorian townships (which can be seen as disproportionately benefiting Victoria)... because any alignment you take barely has any towns in South Australia bar Adelaide |
| 21:17 | <Flygon> | Because the entire population of South Australia lives in Adelaide... |
| 21:17 | <sim-al2> | Heh |
| 21:17 | <Flygon> | sim: Locomotive hauled? |
| 21:17 | <sim-al2> | Yes, HST style |
| 21:18 | <sim-al2> | One at each end |
| 21:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "safe seats" is the single biggest issue with majority voting systems... |
| 21:18 | <sim-al2> | Something something US politics |
| 21:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i might be biased, but i really like the german hybrid voting system |
| 21:19 | <sim-al2> | wow 79 confirmed orders now from various agencies |
| 21:19 | <sim-al2> | http://www.mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000810&lang=en&id=8223&action=shownews |
| 21:20 | <Flygon> | sim: I admit I'm not a huge fan of locomotive HSTs |
| 21:20 | <Flygon> | But knowing how utterly, and please excuse my language here, fucked federal US railway regulation is |
| 21:20 | <Flygon> | There's no avoiding it |
| 21:20 | <sim-al2> | They will also serve commuter and long haul trains |
| 21:20 | * | Flygon nod |
| 21:21 | <sim-al2> | It was a low risk design for Siemens and now it will pay off well, especially if Amtrak jumps in |
| 21:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | for those that don't know, the german system works that everybody has two votes: the first one elects a local candidate by simple majority rule, which comprise half the parlament, and the other half of the seats are filled up so it matches the proportional second vote |
| 21:22 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Here, it's the usual "Upper" and "Lower" house system with Preferential voting |
| 21:22 | <sim-al2> | The FRA regulations are outdate yes but most European units will not survive anything more than a side-swipe with 130 tonne freight cars |
| 21:22 | <Flygon> | But despite our voting system, we've had an unusually 'stable' political seats thingy |
| 21:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so the parliament in the end looks like a proportional one, but it keeps some local representation typial for majority voting |
| 21:23 | <Flygon> | sim: I aint denying that. That's why you get Australians to design crashworthy D/EMUs xP |
| 21:23 | <Flygon> | The VLocities here are absurdly crash resistant |
| 21:23 | <Flygon> | You can't say any other train is literally bulletproof (the front ends are made of kevlar!) |
| 21:24 | <Flygon> | This is in part due to being designed to hit level crossings at 160km/h |
| 21:25 | <Flygon> | Unfortunately, the most serious accident involving a VLocity involved one hitting a truck carrying cube stone slabs of rock |
| 21:25 | <Flygon> | Which's not only the most unlikely thing a VLo could hit at speed |
| 21:25 | <Flygon> | But the worst possible thing it could hit |
| 21:25 | <Flygon> | Passengers weren't too hurt, but everyone in the cab was moosh. The same result would've occoured with a locomotive train tbh. |
| 21:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so what's the benefit of a bulletproof train over a bullet train? |
| 21:26 | <Flygon> | Eddi: It's boganproof |
| 21:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, meanwhile, german DMUs get completely smashed by hitting a car |
| 21:28 | <Flygon> | Mm x: |
| 21:29 | <Flygon> | http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/04/28/svTRAIN_wideweb__470x299,0.jpg |
| 21:29 | <Flygon> | It hit the truck around 115-130km/h, it was emergency braking |
| 21:29 | <Flygon> | But... |
| 21:29 | <Flygon> | Apart from the cab becoming utterly pancaked and the DMU derailed, the entire passenger compartment was untouched |
| 21:30 | <Flygon> | Hell, it was still running when that photo was taken... |
| 21:34 | <sim-al2> | Yeah, I think we need to borrow some Aussies, but we have a strong case of "not invented here", see the PTC specs, etc |
| 21:34 | <Flygon> | I imagine if our rail regulations were less stringent, they would've decoupled the 'functioning' railcar, and simply run it to the workshops for repairs |
| 21:34 | * | Flygon nod |
| 21:34 | <Flygon> | Australians mostly build themselves due to paranioa... |
| 21:34 | <Flygon> | Whenever we get overseas equipment |
| 21:34 | <Flygon> | It tends to fail pretty hard |
| 21:35 | <sim-al2> | Seriously, as far as I can tell the ETMS/ETCS did everything the FRA wanted, and already had the bugs worked out |
| 21:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | have you tried turning it upside down after arrival? :p |
| 21:35 | <Flygon> | Eurotrams crap themselves in Melbourne due to either the heat or the network being built 'worse' than a European city |
| 21:35 | <Flygon> | (eg. tight curve lengths, overall much rougher track) |
| 21:35 | <Flygon> | (we recently had a C2-class Tram have it's wheel come flying off at speed!!!!) |
| 21:35 | <Flygon> | http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-20/yarra-trams-pulls-c-class-fleet-for-inspection-after-derailment/6870778 Oh, it was a standard C clas |
| 21:36 | <Flygon> | Eddi: None have rolled yet, thankfully |
| 21:37 | <Flygon> | Hell... before privatization |
| 21:37 | <Flygon> | We exported our Trams to Asia |
| 21:37 | <Flygon> | And Asians are picky as fuck buggers |
| 21:37 | <Flygon> | And it looks like the new E-classes might get exported to Euripe |
| 21:37 | <Flygon> | Europe* |
| 21:38 | <Flygon> | (ultimately, the Eurotrams faced the same problems the Pendos did in Finland. Our network and climate is just way too different for them to work correctly) |
| 21:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, germans managed to build air conditioning into their trains that fail when temperatures get above 40°C |
| 21:39 | <Flygon> | We're having the same problem with heavy rail equipment too... |
| 21:39 | <Flygon> | Siemens are practically banned permanantly from Victoria after the saga with the Siemens Nexas EMUs |
| 21:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which happens about 3 times per year |
| 21:40 | <Flygon> | And the X'trapolises are already rusting away despite being less than 10 years old |
| 21:40 | <sim-al2> | Aren't they stainless steel? |
| 21:40 | <Flygon> | (Siemens (duh) and Alstom respectively) |
| 21:40 | <Flygon> | sim: Yes. |
| 21:40 | <Flygon> | The X'trapolises are so bad |
| 21:40 | <Flygon> | They're literally using stainless steel that can rust. |
| 21:40 | <Flygon> | My friend's theory is that they're using a pretty bad alloy |
| 21:40 | <sim-al2> | Getting a stainless steel body that can rust is ... impressive |
| 21:41 | * | Flygon laughs |
| 21:41 | <sim-al2> | Consider the US railcars from the 1940's and 50's still rolling around |
| 21:41 | <Flygon> | Sadly, it's not the first time it happened |
| 21:41 | <Flygon> | The Hitachi trains hit the same problem |
| 21:41 | <Flygon> | But the problems didn't manifest as quickly/severely |
| 21:41 | <Flygon> | (nonetheless, the buildiers of the Hitachi got booted in favor of Comeng) |
| 21:42 | <Flygon> | (note, Hitachi didn't build the trains, they only supplied the motors and transmission iirc. Those parts were topnotch and never failed) |
| 21:42 | <Flygon> | (so... Victoria has no beef with Hitachi themself. xP) |
| 21:42 | <sim-al2> | Stainless steel can corrode in salty and wet conditions, but still there are cars 60+ years old running fine |
| 21:43 | <Flygon> | Melbourne's very wet. |
| 21:43 | <Flygon> | We're the Seattle of Australia |
| 21:44 | <sim-al2> | Certainly, Amtrak has always bought stainless steel because the regular cars were rusting out after 20-30 years |
| 21:44 | <Flygon> | (I do note, the A-class locomotives are rusting too... but the problems clearly not too bad if V/Line are running around 65 year old A66 without problem) |
| 21:44 | <sim-al2> | Hmm, I've always liked the A's and B's |
| 21:44 | <Flygon> | (albiet, sparingly. They want to use it only in case of N-class shortages) |
| 21:45 | <Flygon> | The Bs and S's still run about |
| 21:45 | <sim-al2> | If only they could have shoved a HEP motor in there |
| 21:45 | <Flygon> | Ooh, yeah |
| 21:45 | <Flygon> | I forgot they lack HEP... |
| 21:45 | <Flygon> | It's too late to retrofit it now |
| 21:45 | <Flygon> | The poor things need to be in a museum |
| 21:45 | <sim-al2> | Yeah, that's really amazing, the US equivalents lived on into the 90's in commuter service but are pretty much gone except from the small railroads |
| 21:46 | -!- | supermop [~supermop@pool-108-6-12-46.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd |
| 21:46 | <Flygon> | 'ey supermop |
| 21:46 | <Flygon> | sim: *nod* |
| 21:46 | <sim-al2> | Don't a lot of V/Line cars still have generators on them? |
| 21:46 | <Flygon> | Yeah. It's kind of incredible to realize that the A-class is the last of it's kind (pax. bulldog nose) |
| 21:46 | <Flygon> | V/Line cars? As in the carriages themselves? |
| 21:47 | <Flygon> | Or a separate HEP equivilant carriage? |
| 21:47 | <sim-al2> | Yeah, the H-sets I think had some |
| 21:47 | <supermop> | bulldog? |
| 21:47 | <Flygon> | If it's the latter, I think that's just for the Albury line, and A-class hauled sets |
| 21:47 | <Flygon> | supermop: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5L3g-fOfYds/maxresdefault.jpg |
| 21:47 | <sim-al2> | hnnggghhhh |
| 21:48 | <supermop> | i'd love to buy a z1/2 headed to be scrapped and run it as a commuter special cafe car on the 96 rush hour |
| 21:48 | <supermop> | bar in the evening |
| 21:48 | <supermop> | store at north fitz depot |
| 21:48 | <Flygon> | Issue with the Z1/2's is |
| 21:48 | <sim-al2> | Oh sorry I was looking at the N types |
| 21:49 | <Flygon> | Is that it's impossible to get spare parts for them |
| 21:49 | <Flygon> | And they're literally rusting away |
| 21:49 | <Flygon> | It'd be easier to just guy a personal E-Class Tram. I'm not kidding. |
| 21:49 | <sim-al2> | No new types? |
| 21:49 | <supermop> | there are a handful of private owned non working zs |
| 21:49 | <Flygon> | Unless you'd want to run the Z1/2's on a personal railway that isn't subject to Yarra Trams regulation |
| 21:49 | <Flygon> | sim: New types? |
| 21:50 | <Flygon> | supermop: Aye |
| 21:50 | <sim-al2> | I mean new carriages on order |
| 21:50 | <supermop> | theres still 100-200 z1/2s out there mandated to be gradually scrapped/canabalized |
| 21:50 | <supermop> | so there should be at least a short term supply of parts |
| 21:51 | <sim-al2> | I mean the H-sets started life as EMU units |
| 21:51 | <Flygon> | Oh |
| 21:51 | <supermop> | z3 would be easier to keep running but don't think they are scrapping those anytime soon |
| 21:51 | <Flygon> | No, I don't think V/Line is going to get any new carriages anymore |
| 21:51 | <Flygon> | Only new DMUs |
| 21:51 | <Flygon> | Actually, the Z3's are being rushed out as soon as possible |
| 21:52 | <Flygon> | They're only being continued because, unlike the Z1/2's |
| 21:52 | <Flygon> | They're parts compatible with the A and B's |
| 21:52 | <Flygon> | Or - Yarra Trams doesn't want ANY High-Floor Trams |
| 21:52 | <sim-al2> | Uhh any pages with info on the Z carriages? |
| 21:53 | <Flygon> | sim: If it weren't for their exterior making it hard to fit a facade, I'd say the Comeng series would be a reasonable H-class replacement |
| 21:53 | <Flygon> | But the Comeng are way more useful as EMUs |
| 21:53 | <Flygon> | And if anything, will last another 20 years |
| 21:53 | <sim-al2> | I suppose those could work, might have to do a lot of work to convert from 1500VDC power to (I assume) AC train supply |
| 21:53 | <Flygon> | sim: I don't have my sources on me. These were posts on Railpage. x.x |
| 21:54 | <Flygon> | Ehh... |
| 21:54 | <Flygon> | The bodies of the Comeng are still perfectly cromulent |
| 21:54 | <Flygon> | And a lot of other parts |
| 21:54 | <Flygon> | Worst to worst, you put new motors in, other parts for AC, and bob's your uncle |
| 21:56 | <supermop> | Zs, As, and Bs would already be illegal here |
| 21:56 | <Flygon> | supermop: Where's 'here' again? |
| 21:56 | <supermop> | but in semi-private use one could likely get a waiver |
| 21:57 | <supermop> | the US generally |
| 21:57 | <Flygon> | Gotcha |
| 21:57 | <supermop> | under ADA |
| 21:57 | <Flygon> | I like the B's, myself... |
| 21:57 | <Flygon> | They're incredible beasts |
| 21:57 | <Flygon> | I mean, if you HAD to make them low floor |
| 21:57 | <Flygon> | I'd say insert a low floor middle carriage |
| 21:57 | <sim-al2> | High level platforms are a thing... |
| 21:57 | <supermop> | chicago recently scrapped a bunch of L cars from the 80s with probably 30-40 more years left in them as they had bifold doors with center pivots |
| 21:57 | <Flygon> | (I have worked with the disable, and know the frustration x: ) |
| 21:58 | <Flygon> | sim: The B1's were designed to have floor stairs that elevated at railway platforms |
| 21:58 | <supermop> | the high level tram platforms are still lower than the high floor trams floors |
| 21:58 | <Flygon> | But the feature was scrapped for the B2's |
| 21:58 | <Flygon> | supermop: SCRAPPED?? |
| 21:58 | <Flygon> | ._. |
| 21:58 | <Flygon> | What the hell |
| 21:58 | <supermop> | well more dumped in the ocean |
| 21:58 | <supermop> | than scrapped |
| 21:58 | <Flygon> | Why didn't they sell them to other companies? |
| 21:59 | <Flygon> | Melbourne could've made use of them, presuming affordable modification (particulary for 1500v and pantographization) |
| 21:59 | <sim-al2> | You guys would love JR East, they plan on dumping their stuff every 15-20 years now |
| 21:59 | <supermop> | ive had this discussion often, and basically, they would be illegal anywhere in the US or canada |
| 21:59 | <Flygon> | And since they're American EMUs, they'd be crashworthy in Australia |
| 21:59 | <sim-al2> | Ehh, L cars are small subway cars not great for long distances |
| 22:00 | <supermop> | hard to find somewhere with standard gauge 600V 3rd rail thaat wants a 30 year old non hadicap accessible train |
| 22:00 | <supermop> | basically only developing countries, but then its a bit patronizing to offload old equipment like that |
| 22:00 | <Flygon> | sim: I was suggesting for urban use |
| 22:01 | <Flygon> | Like... |
| 22:01 | <Flygon> | The Sandringham line |
| 22:01 | <Flygon> | supermop: They'd prefer having equipment over having none at all |
| 22:01 | <supermop> | especially when it would come with an infrastructure bill so large |
| 22:01 | <sim-al2> | Not a lot of cities have the space or money, New York does it's own thing and everyone has different system needs |
| 22:01 | * | Flygon googles exactly what a centre pivot door is |
| 22:01 | <supermop> | bifold doors |
| 22:01 | <Flygon> | Oh jesus |
| 22:02 | <Flygon> | Oh, bifold door? |
| 22:02 | <supermop> | like on a b class |
| 22:02 | <supermop> | but |
| 22:02 | <supermop> | with a structural pillar in the center |
| 22:02 | * | Flygon rubs forehead |
| 22:02 | <Flygon> | Wow |
| 22:02 | <supermop> | which can't be cut out |
| 22:02 | <Flygon> | Okay, yeah. That wouldn't fly here either. |
| 22:02 | <Flygon> | Still, in Africa... |
| 22:02 | <Flygon> | They could still loco haul them |
| 22:02 | <Flygon> | Or South America |
| 22:02 | <sim-al2> | If it makes you feel better, the other 80's trains are still going to be in service for a long time |
| 22:02 | <Flygon> | Or Asia |
| 22:03 | <sim-al2> | Too much work for any of those when they could get mainline trains for a bout the same |
| 22:03 | <sim-al2> | *cost |
| 22:03 | <Flygon> | Hmm... |
| 22:03 | <Flygon> | Alright |
| 22:03 | <sim-al2> | See Chile and their EMUs basically being Spanish |
| 22:03 | <supermop> | thats the thing though, most parts of asia with existing urban rail networks couldn't justify taking on a weird orphaned fleet |
| 22:04 | <supermop> | places that could like phnom penh have no extant rail infrastructure |
| 22:04 | <Flygon> | Hmm... |
| 22:04 | <Flygon> | Still, in the end |
| 22:04 | <supermop> | and if you are going to build a network from scratch, the trains themselves are insignificant |
| 22:04 | <Flygon> | Dumping them into the ocean seems silly |
| 22:04 | <sim-al2> | Japan's small railways tend to take the old stuff, but their own systems match the big system's design standards |
| 22:05 | <Flygon> | Wouldn't you get more profit by scavenging the working parts, then using the rest as scrap metal? |
| 22:05 | <sim-al2> | Artifical reef |
| 22:05 | <Flygon> | Oh |
| 22:05 | <Flygon> | I forgot artificial reefs are a thing |
| 22:05 | <sim-al2> | They took the parts off and dumped the shells |
| 22:05 | <Flygon> | Right, okay |
| 22:05 | <Flygon> | THAT |
| 22:05 | <supermop> | so why no sign a deal with a manufacturer for delivery and 30 years or maintenance with attractive financing |
| 22:05 | <Flygon> | THAT makes sense. |
| 22:06 | <sim-al2> | ^Supermop has is right, buying other people's castoffs doesn't sound as good as brand new |
| 22:06 | <supermop> | taking on old trains that you have to repair yourself vs canada underwriting a loan for bombardier to provide new trains and service |
| 22:06 | <Flygon> | Right, I forgot new trains tend to come with a warranty x.x |
| 22:07 | <Flygon> | RE: Canada and Bombardier... |
| 22:07 | <Flygon> | I am mildly surprised Canada hasn't gotten VLos manufactured there... |
| 22:07 | <supermop> | even for a poor country or city, you find either the manufacturer or its host country making you an offer you cant refuse |
| 22:07 | <Flygon> | Wouldn't Canada have a fair few Diesel interurban lines that could use a 160km/h train with the acceleration of a subway car? xP |
| 22:07 | <sim-al2> | Canada's previous government didn't like that sort of thing |
| 22:07 | <supermop> | kawasaki has a plant in new york |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | (I'd also find it amusing if they kept the VLocity name in Canada :B) |
| 22:08 | <sim-al2> | Kinda of, the airport express trains have new Nippon Sharyo DMUs |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | Airport trains being DMUs? O_o |
| 22:08 | <Flygon> | Only in Japan |
| 22:08 | <supermop> | ^ home team cant win them all |
| 22:08 | <sim-al2> | Hmmm, I'm talking Canada |
| 22:08 | <sim-al2> | Toronto Pearson Express |
| 22:08 | <sim-al2> | Also diesel airport train or no airport train |
| 22:09 | <supermop> | N.S. does a ton of business in north america |
| 22:09 | <Flygon> | Ooh, right |
| 22:09 | <supermop> | in the US though, new york killed all of our train builders |
| 22:09 | <Flygon> | Sorry, brainderped |
| 22:09 | <sim-al2> | Yeah, they've gone full out here, Japan doesn't have the same growth it used to |
| 22:09 | <Flygon> | I am very surprised Japan hasn't expanded more agressively into Australia |
| 22:09 | <Flygon> | Then again, we have a poor history with Australia |
| 22:10 | <supermop> | st louis car company, pullman, budd, all went under shortly after desperately grasping at a subway bid |
| 22:10 | <Flygon> | Japan wanted to use Sydney's Double Decker EMU designs... I think they were cooperating with Comeng |
| 22:10 | <supermop> | winning a contract that they could barely afford to meet |
| 22:11 | <Flygon> | And then the Japanese company began having arguments with the Comeng engineers because Comeng kept saying "You can't do that! It'll make the train run worse/passenger flow worse", but Japanese half insisted that their way was better.... |
| 22:11 | <sim-al2> | St. Louis and Pullman had problems way before then, they were basically being kept alive by transit contracts since Amtrak had the old passenger cars the freight railroads offloaded onto them and no one else bought American type stock at that point |
| 22:11 | <Flygon> | (Japanese DDs tend to have far worse passenger flow than Sydney's DDs...) |
| 22:12 | <sim-al2> | Japan seems to have DD for mostly express service or as a complement to the longer distance suburban trains, they really need short station stops for commuter |
| 22:12 | <supermop> | Flygon: i actually think the bombardier bilevels ubiqutous in north america unload easier than sydney |
| 22:12 | <Flygon> | sim: *nod* |
| 22:12 | <Flygon> | supermop: I admit I'm not entirely familiar with their design |
| 22:13 | <supermop> | sydney trains are a bizarre choice for an urban rail system |
| 22:13 | <Flygon> | It was built because it was cheaper than upgrading the lines |
| 22:13 | <supermop> | similiar layout but bigger areas at platform height |
| 22:13 | <Flygon> | Or: We designed the worlds first DDEMUs out of laziness |
| 22:13 | <Flygon> | That's the Austraaalian waaay~ |
| 22:13 | <sim-al2> | Here's a long distance cross-Tokyo suburban type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E233-3000_tokaido_main_line.JPG |
| 22:14 | <Flygon> | Heheh, that random DD hump |
| 22:14 | <supermop> | smaller doors but easier to get to the vestibule internally |
| 22:14 | <supermop> | i've ridden one of those sets |
| 22:14 | <supermop> | green car was in the DD part |
| 22:14 | <supermop> | was on a chuo line limited |
| 22:16 | <Flygon> | Nice |
| 22:16 | <sim-al2> | One of these? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/215_Zushi_to_Shinagawa_at_Shin-Kawasaki_20020713.jpg |
| 22:17 | <sim-al2> | I can't think of what bilevels have run on the Chuo line |
| 22:17 | <Flygon> | Note on the lead car |
| 22:17 | <Flygon> | How the lower deck is unaccessible |
| 22:17 | <sim-al2> | Although the rapid trains will get bilevels added to them in a few years, for 12 car sets |
| 22:17 | <Flygon> | Guess where all the equipment is |
| 22:17 | <sim-al2> | The lead car has the resistors there |
| 22:17 | <Flygon> | Yeah |
| 22:18 | <sim-al2> | Like a NS DDM |
| 22:18 | <supermop> | first one you linked |
| 22:18 | <supermop> | or similar |
| 22:18 | <supermop> | circa 2004 |
| 22:18 | <supermop> | havent seen on that service since then |
| 22:18 | <sim-al2> | Hmmm, Chuo rapid right, and not out in the boonies? |
| 22:19 | <supermop> | it ran way out there, but i only hopped on from Tokyo to shinjuku |
| 22:19 | <sim-al2> | On the 215, the end cars have the resistors and the field-weaking electronics there, and motors on that car and the car next to it |
| 22:20 | <supermop> | had a green rail pass and feet were tired so grabbed that as it was the least absurd way to reserve a seat for such a short trip |
| 22:20 | <sim-al2> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JREast-E231-1000-K21.jpg |
| 22:21 | <Flygon> | Anywya |
| 22:21 | <Flygon> | Anyway* |
| 22:21 | <Flygon> | IRL stuff time. Thank you! |
| 22:22 | <sim-al2> | bye :( |
| 22:22 | <supermop> | japanese catenary always looks so sturdy in these photos |
| 22:23 | <supermop> | i know its mostly the angle and lens length used but still |
| 22:23 | <sim-al2> | It probably is, they run 1500 VDC in most city areas |
| 22:23 | <sim-al2> | Also earthquakes, and maybe the slightly smaller (but normal proporrtion) trains |
| 22:23 | <supermop> | looks much more engineered than most of the almost trolley wire stuff you see elsewhere |
| 22:24 | <sim-al2> | Well it does have 3 to 4 pantographs being pulled across it, sometimes more on the older subway trains |
| 22:25 | <sim-al2> | And the occasional locomotive on the JR lines |
| 22:26 | <sim-al2> | Lots of compound catenary too |
| 22:26 | <supermop> | whats odd is that so many lines have essentially custom/bespoke stock there |
| 22:27 | <supermop> | like JR or tokyo metro will place an order designed and built for a single service |
| 22:27 | <sim-al2> | JR East seems to have gotten the best cut of the JNR system, and they have money~~~~ to spend for perfect efficiency |
| 22:27 | <supermop> | so you have these weird outliers like ginza and marunouchi lines that are 3rd rail |
| 22:28 | <sim-al2> | It helps that they actually own a rolling stock factory and actually use lots of standard parts and designs |
| 22:28 | <supermop> | you'd thenk they'd order the same trains for the two of those at least, but there are actually slight differences |
| 22:28 | <supermop> | yeah |
| 22:28 | <sim-al2> | Ginza predated almost everything though |
| 22:29 | <supermop> | and a lot of the workhorse emus from a given time look pretty similar |
| 22:29 | <sim-al2> | I think they would have to raise streets to get enough room for mainline stock |
| 22:29 | <supermop> | but most special or rapid services get at least a custom aesthetic design |
| 22:30 | <supermop> | they can do it there |
| 22:30 | <sim-al2> | If you look at the express units, they tend to share traction systems and other stuff with the contemporary commuter stock |
| 22:30 | <supermop> | they were taking down the expressway between ginza and shiodome piece by piece last time i was there |
| 22:31 | <sim-al2> | That sounds like a mess |
| 22:31 | <sim-al2> | For example, the new E353 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E353_series) has E233 traction equipment |
| 22:31 | <supermop> | yeah - but in most of the world, you'd never get the special body shell or cab ends for such a small batch |
| 22:33 | <sim-al2> | They really want to keep people interested |
| 22:33 | <supermop> | i'm happy to see the commitment to industrial design at the institutional level |
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| 22:34 | <supermop> | oing to go watch seinfeld reruns |
| 22:34 | <sim-al2> | JR West is kinda interesting because they actually have to compete hard core with the other railways around Osaka |
| 22:35 | <sim-al2> | At one point they were trying to cut lines |
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