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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-19

---Logopened Thu Nov 19 00:00:40 2015
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05:54<Wolf01>hi hi
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06:20<__ln__>buongiorno signore
06:20<Wolf01>ciao __ln__
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09:08<FR^2>is there a way to add a halt to each of a group of e.g. busses?
09:09<@peter1138>Are you sharing orders?
09:10<FR^2>Erm. Not sure what you mean. They all have the identical sequence of stops.
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09:18<andythenorth>when does newgrf wiki sync its auth db to tt-forums?
09:19<andythenorth>I have created a new forum user because I have been unable to log in to newgrf wiki for months
09:19<andythenorth>but the new user fails too
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>FR^2: "identical" and "shared" are different things
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>FR^2: you create shared orders with ctrl+click
09:21<FR^2>Ah, yes, I'm reading the wiki right now, thanks, that is the keyword I was looking for
09:23<FR^2>cool thing :) Thanks
09:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you should highlight o ru dge about that
09:31<Mazur>"o ru dge"?
09:47*andythenorth inventing industries
09:47<TrueBrain>owh! FUDGE! What did I do ...
09:47<TrueBrain>? :D
09:48*Mazur remains unconvinced.
10:00<andythenorth>or I could post newgrf wiki edits here and one of you could put them in :P
10:03<TrueBrain>it is one easy way to receive a ban, indeed :D
10:03<TrueBrain><3 :D
10:04<andythenorth>or I could just stop maintaining the newgrf wiki, also :)
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11:46<Eearslya>Alberth: I replied to your comment a couple days back, FYI XD
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11:46<@Alberth>I saw, but I have to try it, which I haven't done yet
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12:58<andythenorth>o/t anyone here know about Wii U controllers?
12:59<TrueBrain>white things
12:59<TrueBrain>about this long
12:59<andythenorth>I need 4 on christmas day, and they need to not suck
12:59<TrueBrain>used to control a WiiU :P
12:59<andythenorth>and I don’t have 4
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13:17<argoneus>andythenorth: can't you use craigslist or whatever
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14:04<Eddi|zuHause>is there even more than one type of WiiU controller?
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14:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately there appear to be 4 from nintendo
14:08<andythenorth>and then there are third party options
14:08<andythenorth>and Wii controllers _may_ also be compatible, but that’s unclear, and maybe only for some games
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'm assuming you have one. just get more of that exact same type
14:08<andythenorth>the one in the box is the one with the screen and costs $140
14:09<andythenorth>and you might only be able to use one or two per Wii U
14:09<andythenorth>the Gamecube controllers might work with a USB adapter, but maybe only in Super Smash Bros
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>then maybe you should read the manual?
14:09<andythenorth>I don’t have the Wii U yet :P
14:09<andythenorth>and the internet is not yet helpful
14:09<andythenorth>it seems that you have to pick the game you want to play first, then buy controllers for it
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid i'm not helpful either
14:10<andythenorth>I wasn’t hopeful in this channel tbh :)
14:10<andythenorth>but I am avoiding Facebook, because of many reasons
14:11*andythenorth back to FIRS :P
14:11<andythenorth>should a car dealer industry accept petrol?
14:11<andythenorth>or should I just make it a ‘garage'?
14:12<andythenorth>how does it work in other countries?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>car dealers and fuel stations are completely separate here
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>and "garage" means something completely different
14:13<mczapkie>Garage is an obsolete version of car dealer, workshop and gas station 3 in 1
14:13<Taede>though occasionally there might be a service station right outside a dealership, but that is coincidence, they usually aren't connected otherwise
14:15<andythenorth>in the uk, garage is now either workshop or petrol station, they used to be often combined, but now mostly aren't
14:15<andythenorth>and some also sold cars, but now mostly don’t
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14:17<frosch123>here petrol stations are usually combined with a car wash
14:18<mczapkie>they sold or even assembled cars, repair them and sold gasoline, now it evolved
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, in german, "Garage" is just the (enclosed) place where you put your car overnight
14:18<frosch123>well, and a grocery/stuff store
14:18<mczapkie>but in heyday of automobilism, there was no gas stations
14:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that in the UK too P
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>i think it evolved completely differently in germany. in the early days, gas was sold at apothecaries, and later it was separated. it never merged with car dealers/repair shops (probably for storage licensing reasons)
14:20<mczapkie>you can make Garages (in pre-war meaning) accepting both, and gasoline station and car dealer which appear later
14:20<frosch123>i have seen some old repair shops with petrol station
14:20<frosch123>never a car dealer though
14:21<mczapkie>I done such thing with ECS extension set
14:21<andythenorth>mczapkie: you gave me the idea ;)
14:21<andythenorth>it happened to fit exactly to something I wanted to do in FIRS
14:21<andythenorth>spooky timing :)
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14:22<mczapkie>but in ECS there are stockpile limits and such evolvng havebut I'm not sure if such idea bring anything to FIRS except eye candyness
14:23<mczapkie> in ECS there are stockpile limits and such evolving make sense
14:23<andythenorth>in this case I just need one extra industry
14:23<andythenorth>petrol station I have already
14:23<andythenorth>I wondered if I should merge petrol station + car dealer, but I think not
14:24<mczapkie>vehicles are ENSP or just another new cargo?
14:25<andythenorth>vehicles - new cargo
14:26<andythenorth>but I intend to add an industry for vehicles -> ENSP
14:26<andythenorth>it will be a long chain, but eh
14:26<andythenorth>I am adding ‘machinery dealer’ or ‘supply yard’, not sure which yet
14:26<andythenorth>I have sprites for supply yard, that might influence the decision :P
14:27<mczapkie>at least PKP car shuttle wagons will be functional for FIRS
14:28<mczapkie>PKP author don't want to use vehicle sprites as ENSP because ENSP are in crates
14:28<andythenorth>I have a pretty nice Scandinavan-ish economy for Basic Arctic
14:28<andythenorth>it has a problem with food though :P
14:29<andythenorth>all food is livestock or fish :P
14:29<andythenorth>I don’t want to add dairy, because that’s too similar to Basic Temperate
14:29<mczapkie>maybe grain from harbour?
14:29<andythenorth>grain is boring, FIRS uses it in most economies :)
14:29<andythenorth>but maybe
14:29<andythenorth>there are no vegetables in FIRS at all
14:30<andythenorth>could add those
14:30<andythenorth>‘farm produce’ <- lazy cargo o_O
14:30<mczapkie>potatoes are vegetables
14:30<mczapkie>and can be use to make potatoes juice
14:31<mczapkie>thery popular in Scandinavia
14:32<mczapkie>(sorry for typos, I need to clean my keyboard)
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14:34<andythenorth>I could add potatoes
14:34<andythenorth>or root vegetables? more flexible?
14:34<andythenorth>or just vegetables?
14:36<mczapkie>vegetables are ok, but what to do with them? go to food processor or shop?
14:37<andythenorth>yeah, exactly
14:37<andythenorth>they have to go to food processor
14:37<mczapkie>BTW these Firs shops are bloody creatures, they steal fruits from brewery
14:37<andythenorth>otherwise farm might as well just make ‘food'
14:37<andythenorth>fruit going to shop is dumb
14:38<andythenorth>I thought it was a reasonable suggestion so I added it :P
14:38<andythenorth>but it’s daft
14:38<andythenorth>I should make it go via the food processor
14:40<mczapkie>it makes sense
14:41<andythenorth>will end up with food processor in every economy :P
14:41<andythenorth>boring :P
14:42<mczapkie>not sure how simply/complicated must to be Your economy
14:42<mczapkie>potatoes give fork to food processor and brewery
14:42<mczapkie>vegetables is too general term
14:43<andythenorth>it’s a basic economy :)
14:44<andythenorth>I’ve just pushed, I’m waiting for bundles to build the docs ;)
14:46<mczapkie>will these vehicles have mass 2.5t like ECS one, or different?
14:46<mczapkie>because my road set is adjusted to carry as much items as load mass allow
14:47<andythenorth>I haven’t thought about that yet :)
14:47<andythenorth>I would guess about 1t / unit
14:47<andythenorth>maybe more
14:48<mczapkie>I must to use cargo_unit_weight instead of hard-coded coefficient to adapt my load capacity
14:49<andythenorth>^ not complete yet, some industries need swapped / added
14:49<andythenorth>and I want to make Fish be an export cargo, but not sure how
14:51<mczapkie>how to magify this flow chart?
14:51<mczapkie>ok, got it, show frame
14:51<andythenorth>it has problems in some browsers
14:51<andythenorth>IE especially
14:52<andythenorth>it’s basically the ‘Volvo’ economy :P
14:52<mczapkie>not sure if general store is needed in arctic climate
14:52<andythenorth>need some town destination for food
14:52<andythenorth>got alternative suggestion? o_O
14:54<mczapkie>towns accept food themselves
14:55<andythenorth>yair :) But not if player uses a different climate, or house set or so on :)
14:55*andythenorth wonders about Fish -> Port
14:56<andythenorth>Fish -> Fishing Harbour -> Frozen Fish -> Port :P
14:57<mczapkie>I tought that this set will work only for Arctic climate
14:57<mczapkie>if not, of course food black hole is mandatory
14:57<andythenorth>I keep it flexible per climate :)
14:58<mczapkie>and what about ski resort instead of this boring hotel thing?
14:59<mczapkie>for example some TARS objects etc, located at slope
14:59<andythenorth>I wanted it to be this hotel :)
14:59<andythenorth>which is canada, but is a ski resort...
15:00<mczapkie>generally, I meant to make hotels outside town
15:01<andythenorth>in remote areas?
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>on hilltops? ECS tourist center style?
15:01<andythenorth>this economy is one of the only ones without alcohol cargo
15:01<andythenorth>nordic hotels without alcohol? :o
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>alcohol has crazy taxes on it up there...
15:02<mczapkie>as I said, potatos and potato juice
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>(i think. i've never actually been north of Gedser (Denmark))
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>(and that was in the early 90's, when i didn't care about alcohol. or prices)
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>mczapkie: wasn't it the polish that made vodka from potatos?
15:05<andythenorth>I left out alcohol deliberately :)
15:06<andythenorth>the thing with basic economies is
15:06<mczapkie>that they are basic
15:06<andythenorth>they have to have: mail, pax, goods, mnsp, ensp, fmsp
15:06<andythenorth>they start to look a bit the same
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>why do they need all the supplies?
15:07<andythenorth>they’re pretty unavoidable in FIRS
15:07<andythenorth>mnsp could be eliminated, but it would be difficult
15:07<andythenorth>also chemicals seems to be needed in all of them
15:07<andythenorth>and fish, because ‘people like sea based industry'
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>so you have 6 fixed. you can use 10 out of like 30 others to mix things up
15:08<andythenorth>hence desire to drop alcohol, which is in all other economies
15:08<mczapkie>in case of basi industry, maybe general 'supplies' are enough
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you could try merging farm/engineering supplies
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>and have that the difference between "basic" and "extended" economies
15:09*andythenorth ponders wood -> sauna :P
15:10<mczapkie>I found strange bug related to road vehicles custom sound
15:10<mczapkie>not sure if it is my fault or openttd bug
15:10<andythenorth>you managed to compile with road vehicles custom sound? :o
15:10<andythenorth>I tried adding them to HEQS, but compile failed
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>sounds need very special format
15:11<mczapkie>yes, I have this format, it works ok
15:11<mczapkie>if only one road vehicle grf is loaded
15:12<mczapkie>for example sound_effect: sound("src/sfx/Jelczdoors_ermfilm.wav"); play this sound if started
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>mczapkie: it probably doesn't hurt to report it. make sure you attach a test grf to reproduce it
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15:13<mczapkie>but if two grfs are loaded, sound are swapped
15:13<mczapkie>ok, I will make simply grf and check it
15:17<mczapkie>horses are honking, trucks are ringing and trams are whining
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>i think i read a poem for children that went like that :p
15:19<frosch123>the summoning dark cannot handle those
15:23<andythenorth>maybe scandinavians just eat meat and fish
15:23<andythenorth>no other food groups? o_O
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15:25<oskari89>andythenorth: Potatoes and rye / oat grain? :P
15:27<oskari89>Maybe also, sugar beet -> sugar -> bakery?
15:27<andythenorth>potatoes -> frozen chip factory -> food? :P
15:29<mczapkie>fish -> rotten fish -> food (rakfish)
15:29<andythenorth>ha ha
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>do they only make these to troll tourists, or is there actually a way to make them an enjoyable meal?
15:36<andythenorth>I saw a video recently of people being sick eating rakfish
15:36<andythenorth>eh, so this economy could just import food
15:36<andythenorth>which is simplest
15:44<andythenorth>but it also exports food
15:44<andythenorth>due to fish :P
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15:48<andythenorth>my TV has an earworming TV ad for ‘Norwegian Seafood - fresh from the cold, clear waters of Norway’ on heavy repeat :P
15:50<@planetmaker>those sea food farms are funky. At night they switch under-water lights on and off so that the fish eat more during night
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15:58<andythenorth>‘frozen seafood’ cargo? o_O
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16:39<andythenorth>8 crates ENSP produced per 8 vehicles delivered
16:42<mczapkie>these variables in industry window are indexed by hex or dec?
16:43<mczapkie>newgrf debug information
16:43<mczapkie>Yen button
16:44<andythenorth>ha that’s the ‘bug’ icon I drew
16:44<andythenorth>these vars are the numbers in nfo spec
16:46<mczapkie>but these are decimal numbers?
16:46<mczapkie>ok, I see
16:48<mczapkie>I need to modify production depending on nearby tiles, but have no acces to negative indexes for industry
16:48<mczapkie>therefore I must make different layouts and check layout number
16:50<andythenorth>you can’t get negative offsets?
16:50<andythenorth>which cb is this?
16:50<andythenorth>iirc, most of them are signed
16:50*andythenorth might be wrong
16:50<mczapkie>for industry only 0..15 offset can be used
16:50<mczapkie>for industry tile positive or negative
16:51<andythenorth>are you checking for nearby houses or something?
16:51<mczapkie>I need to check vicinity around industry but can only south est
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16:51<mczapkie>no, river tiles for water treatment station
16:51<mczapkie>more tiles, highest production
16:52<andythenorth>your using var 62?
16:52*andythenorth wonders why it’s unsigned
16:53<andythenorth>how often does it change? You could check from the tile in a tile loop, or animation, and write to permanent storage in the industry
16:54<mczapkie>basically one can assume that it can be checked once during construction
16:57<andythenorth>what if river is destroyed during game?
16:59<mczapkie>production will stay the same
16:59<andythenorth>yeah checking on construction makes sense then ;)
17:00<andythenorth>mczapkie: are you in this channel most days?
17:00<mczapkie>I'm using location check for tiles, prepared different layouts for different river tiles count and made industry production check based on var[44]
17:01<mczapkie>usually I have no time to stay on IRC, but today my wife went to another town :)
17:01<andythenorth>my wife doesn’t care if I’m on irc or not, as long as dinner is made and the kitchen is tidy
17:02<andythenorth>making FIRS is more fun when other people are working on newgrfs too :P
17:03<mczapkie>BTW, how to enable compiling on jenkins?
17:04<mczapkie>somebody put one my project on jenkins but didn't figure how to perform it
17:04<mczapkie>with other project
17:05<andythenorth>you need the .devzone files
17:05<andythenorth>I’ll find the FIRS one
17:05<TrueBrain>andythenorth: can you fix my dinner too?
17:05<mczapkie>thanks, I will check these for this project wich is already on jenkins
17:06<andythenorth>TrueBrain: yeah, in a bit
17:06<andythenorth>will you do my washing?
17:07<mczapkie>I tried to fix dinner once, but kitchen was not tidy aftermath
17:07<TrueBrain>least I can do I guess
17:08<andythenorth>so keep Iron Ore (because Kiruna mine is very big and served by big trains), or replace with frozen seafood?
17:10<andythenorth>this economy is very short on primary industry, I think keep iron ore
17:11<mczapkie>in my opinion, iron ore trade for bauxite is interesting option
17:11<andythenorth>it’s not weird?
17:11<andythenorth>it’s realistic :P
17:12<mczapkie>but from gameplay view, not sure about double use of chemials for aluminium plant and again metal workshop
17:13<mczapkie>maybe factory instead of metal workshop: metal+wood (Ikea etc)
17:13<andythenorth>interesting idea
17:15<mczapkie>this would give 2 independend sources for goods
17:15<mczapkie>now chemicals are double mandatory
17:16<mczapkie>3 destination for chenicals is enough
17:16<andythenorth>yeah, chemicals became a fundamental cargo in FIRS, they seem to go everywhere :P
17:17*mczapkie is going AFK to finish ECSext
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17:17*andythenorth bed
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17:55<__ln__>lupo della notte
17:55<Wolf01>lupo notturno
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>"la notte" was a tv show here that was not very kid-friendly :p
18:01<Supercheese>lupus noctis
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: not "nocturnis"?
18:02<Supercheese>I think "della notte" would imply a genitive "of the night" rather than an adjective "nocturnal"
18:02<Supercheese>but ymmv
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i never know what ymmv is
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>and if you tell me, i'll forget by the next time someone writes it
18:04<Supercheese>eh perhaps not a good use of that, more like, "suit yourself". But it is "Your mileage may vary", referencing "EPA estimates X miles per gallon" but they disclaim that this is an estimate only and your particular mileage could be different
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18:05<Supercheese>in this case I perhaps should have instead said, "that's how I see it"
18:06<Supercheese>and most folks in Europe use liters and kilometers anyway rather than miles and gallons
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: sure, your reasoning is perfectly valid, but the premise that __ln__ knows what he's talking about may be unstable :p
18:06<Supercheese>perhaps ;)
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather trust an italian guy talking italian than a finnish guy talking italian :p
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: well, people in europe used to use miles, but the problem was that everybody used a different mile
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>while the british imperial mile is around 1.6km, the german mile was 7.5km
18:10<Supercheese>yeah, Roman miles, Scots miles...
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>and the "german mile" was already a compromise between all the different miles used in the various german states
18:10<Supercheese>can't forget Nautical miles
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>the common bit about all the german miles was "2 hours at walking speed"
18:11<Supercheese>well, I'm glad for automated unit conversions we have these days
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>or at least most of them
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>but "walking speed" isn't particularly standardized
18:12<mczapkie>OK, task finished (new water source for ECS is working)
18:12<mczapkie>Good Night everybody
18:12<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i've successfully ordered ice cream in italian.
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18:12<Supercheese>my handheld calculator at least has always been able to convert the units I needed automatically
18:12<Supercheese>__ln__: not gelato? :O
18:13<__ln__>Supercheese: well, gelato, but that's italian and this channel is english only
18:13<Supercheese>unless there isn't a distinction between the two in Italy
18:13<Supercheese>there sure is here at least
18:13<Supercheese>if you go to the store and ask where the "ice cream" is and the "gelato" is, you're pointed to two very different places
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>the distinction is not very strong in german. people just say "ice" and context defines which one is meant
18:14<Supercheese>and often two very different stores
18:14<__ln__>Wolf01: c'è una differencia entre gelato e ice cream? (pardon my half-spanish)
18:14<Wolf01>it's the same thing
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i just misunderstand what Supercheese is actually referring to
18:16<Supercheese>well, here in the States, gelato is not at all equivalent to ice cream, but perhaps elsewhere this is not the case
18:16<Supercheese>they are similar but very distinct
18:18<Wolf01>maybe gelato in the States is what we call "granita", which is just grounded ice with flavoured syrup
18:18<__ln__>"italian ice cream" (at least translated into some language, not necessarily in english) is a distinct concept elsewhere, too
18:19<Supercheese>yeah, I consider "Italian ice cream" and "gelato" synonymous
18:19<Supercheese>the latter being far more common;y used (and concise)
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are different types of ice cream in germany. like "Speiseeis", which you'd usually serve as small balls in a cone or a glass. or "Softeis" which is squished out of a machine into a cone, or "Eis am Stiel", which is prefabricated on a stick, or "Wassereis" which is frozen water with usually some fruit taste. or simple "Eis" which is plain frozen water
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>"italian ice cream" places would usually serve the first kind
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18:29<__ln__>spaniards call it helado, but i think it's quite much the same type of thing as gelato that they sell in the heladerias.
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18:36*drac_boy throws a metric steam valve wrench into sim-a12's direction :)
18:36<Supercheese>a primary difference seems to be percent fat content, with gelato minimum 3.5% compared to ice cream's 10%
18:36<Supercheese>(butterfat, that is)
18:46<Flygon>Gelato is an independant product in Aussierand
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>i've never looked at the fat content of these products
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>PS: "low fat" usually means "more sugar", which is probably even worse...
18:58<Wolf01>oh finally i can use the logistic robots in factorio
19:01<drac_boy>hi wolf01 :)
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19:03<drac_boy>ah, meh :-s
19:03<drac_boy>oh well heh
19:04<Flygon>Eddi: And family wonders why I don't buy low fat
19:04<Flygon>Every time I got low fat
19:04<Flygon>I got fatter
19:05<drac_boy>flygon it really depends on food regulations tbh
19:05<Flygon>I would dare say America doesn't HAVE food regulations
19:05<drac_boy>here you can't hide fat/sodium under alternative logos at all
19:06<Flygon>(whipped cheese wasn't legally classifiable as a food in Australia @_@)
19:06<Supercheese>cheez whiz
19:06<Flygon>I aint sayin' they aint listed in the tables here. I'm just saying marketing overrides the ability to read a table. xP
19:06<Flygon>Supercheese: I promise not to can you
19:06<Flygon>Just promise not to ball me
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19:07<Supercheese>maybe I'll use an apricorn instead
19:08<Flygon>Sorry, someone's bad joke in a diff server actually crashed my IRC client
19:08<Supercheese>so... if you pun hard enough, you can break the Internet?
19:09<Flygon>It didn't help that it was a subway joke
19:10<drac_boy>subway? not LUL i hope :)
19:11<Flygon>Oh, right
19:11<Flygon>I'm in #openttd, I forgot some countries call their metropolis train networks Subways
19:11<Flygon>Here, we just call it the Train Network :U
19:12<Supercheese>well, just undergrounds mostly
19:12<Supercheese>and the sub sandwich chain of restaurants :B
19:13<drac_boy>flygon I only mentioned that because I know a site that quoted strange/funny messages heard on the tanny in the LUL system :)
19:13<Flygon>(I still argue that a properly built Tram network is more convenient than a subway, combined with a long distance heavy rail. But, what do I know about transport planning xP)
19:13<Flygon>Yeah, Subway just known for their footlongs here
19:13<Supercheese>"What are your qualifications for transport design engineer?" "Well, I've played like, a billion games of OpenTTD..."
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>some towns are even worse, they put a miniscule part of their tram underground, and put the subway sign on it
19:13<drac_boy>especially about an ex-plane captain now driving a tube and actually telling his passengers "we're at xxx altitude, temperature is xxx, timezone has not changed. have a good day!"
19:14<drac_boy>I wonder about that sort of things sometimes heh
19:14<Flygon>Eddi: Derp.
19:14<Flygon>drac_boy: Well, the SCMaglev trains are technically aircraft...
19:14<Flygon>They even have actual altitudes from the 'ground'
19:14<Flygon>Frankly, it's a plane without wings!!!
19:15<drac_boy>flygon as for transport planning .. you probably don't want to hire me if your city has a mess of underground sections :p
19:15<Flygon>Melbourne? Eh
19:15<drac_boy>otherwise just stay out of the way (and don't complain about art-isty wires in certain sections too) :)
19:15<Flygon>The only real 'subway' part of it is the City Loop in the CBD
19:15<Flygon>?? What's wrong with wires?
19:15<Flygon>I'm terrified of third rail
19:15<Flygon>There's ZERO third rail networks in Australia!
19:16<Flygon>And the wires we do have, at least, in Melbourne, particulary with the Trams
19:16<Flygon>Are pretty well hidden
19:16<drac_boy>btw why 'art-isty' I meant more like it does not look lik e aindustrial cement pole holding a simple steel i-beam
19:16<drac_boy>thats the wrong way to go doing it but a lot of "cheap" cities apparently do it in these sort of ways
19:16<Flygon>,_2013.JPG And this is actually on the 'worse' end of the spectrum for most of the network
19:17<Flygon>,0.jpg Though, there is some exeptionally messy bits :B
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's more commonly steel poles here, i think
19:17<Supercheese>Flygon: looks like San Francisco's muni trams/trolleybuses
19:17<Supercheese>the overhead wire network, at least
19:18<Flygon>Supercheese: SanFran is Northern Hemisphere Tram capital. Melbourne is Southern Hemisphere Tram capital
19:18<Flygon>Not too surprised by some potentially shared styles/technologies xP
19:18<Supercheese>Ha, I see
19:18<drac_boy>umm...yeah too many wires period .. :)
19:18<drac_boy>btw aussie and we used to talk a bit about some of the older trains especially the red slamdoors right?
19:19<Flygon>Too many wires? Hardly
19:19<Flygon>Red slamdoors? That's a new one
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>the weirdest part of that image is the tram driving on the wrong side
19:20<drac_boy>I forgot the name..something about victorian emu with only one window (as the position for 2nd one wasn't there) for the cab ... and the side profile almost looked same as a normal coach if it wasn't for the pantographs
19:20<Flygon>(excuse the instagram filter) There's hardly any wires here!
19:20<Flygon>drac_boy: You mean Red Rattler?
19:20<drac_boy>"any wires"? well THAT is how I would do it to be honest :) .. just one long line per route/track :)
19:21<Flygon>There was the Swing Door and Sliding Door varieties
19:21<Flygon>The Swing Doors tended to get their doors lobbed off by bridges and tunnels
19:21<drac_boy>flygon .. ah... yep thats it
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>i genuinely despise people who deliberately take colours out of pictures
19:21<Flygon>As in... people left them unlocked, then the EMU would hit 80-100
19:21<drac_boy>and btw I don't recall .. whats with that weird "hump" around the cab?
19:21<Flygon>And then the doors hit some tight clearance areas
19:22<Flygon>The hump?
19:22<Flygon>The EMUs were built in the 1870s-1880s
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>there was a guy who had colour pictures from like the 1950's. and he took the fricking colours out!
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>and it even looked terrible!
19:22<Flygon>It was the cestorly (I know I spelt that wrong) styling of the time
19:22<Flygon>They got EMUized in the 1920s
19:23<Flygon>Or - The hump serves no purpose whatsoever apart from looking cool
19:23<drac_boy>flygon well in that photo I found .. it seem like theres supposed to be something beside the destination board taking up space in that full-width hump over the cab section itself
19:23<Flygon>Oh, yes. I forgot about the desto board
19:23<Flygon>But apart from that, no real purpose
19:24<Flygon>Eddi: Now you know how I feel about American/European driving directions xP
19:24<drac_boy>heh looks a little strange .. and the airhorn apparently appear to be mounted behind the hump .. can't wonder what it would sound like if the driver left these sideway-sliding windows opened!
19:24<Flygon>Or - I find it impossible to play OTTD in Right-side driving x.x
19:25<Flygon>drac_boy: I'm not sure if the windows were openable or not
19:25<Flygon>Considering they were from the 1870s-1880s
19:25<drac_boy>flygon well the two sections are not overlaid .. it looks like theres enough offset for one to slide over the other one
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>at least in germany, humps like this were common in the time of separately braked and unbraked wagons, so the train leader can oversee brake operators on the whole train
19:26<drac_boy>eddi .. well this one is a bit odd because the cab window is to the right side but the hump's window is to the left side
19:26<drac_boy>(unless they're using engineer/fireman placement difference)
19:27<Flygon>Eddi: Considering the age of the carriages, that might actually be the reason
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>the train leader is someone separate from the train driver
19:27<Flygon>They were originally locomotive hauled (duh), and the carriage portion would have a guard at the rear end monitoring the carriages
19:27<drac_boy>flygon but anyway ... the main reason I bought this up now is because heh well I'm just curious .. were there much of any third rail running in australia?
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the upper window would need some elevated ground under it, it would probably not be advisable to have that overlap with the drivers cab
19:29<Flygon>drac_boy: Virtually non-existant
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>so a window on the cab side would have no purpose
19:29<Flygon>600v would've been too low for the heavy rail lines anyway
19:29<Flygon>So we jumped right to 1500vDC in the 1910s and used overhead
19:31<drac_boy>flygon heh I had to ask anyway
19:31<Flygon>And I'd bet the only reason the Trams used 600v was due to that being the only thing available for the same period
19:32<Flygon>As in
19:32<Flygon>Same period being...
19:32<Flygon>1890s for the Trams
19:32<Flygon>My language skills are subpar
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>600V is pretty common for trams
19:33<drac_boy>at least overhead isn't hard to do especially when you got the option for Sommerfeldt if you don't want make it yourself
19:33<Flygon>"Pretty common". Dude, it's THE Tram voltage :D
19:33<drac_boy>(just my own random not)
19:34<drac_boy>flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for
19:35<Flygon>iirc, Melbourne's Trams probably use AC motors
19:35<Flygon>As in, the modern ones
19:35<Flygon>Do NOT quote me on this though
19:36<drac_boy>btw interesting little tidbit...the pre-overhead third rail electrification used for the Grand Central Terminal (or was it a different station name?) was also at like 500-700V too as this was direct feed to the resistor taps for the motors
19:36*Flygon nod
19:37<Flygon>I do think the 'electrics only' rule is a tad silly
19:37<drac_boy>so yeah some of the small locomotives that came out in the middle between 3rd rail still being active and overhead elsewhere being built out actually had a dual lowdc+11Kac supply
19:37<Flygon>Hell, even the City Loop in Melbourne is practically designed to handle Diesels. Despite being designed mainly just for EMUs
19:37<drac_boy>flygon well you have to think of what it was like back then .. combustion powered was a very small niche so it was mainly steam or the then-expanding electrics
19:38<Flygon>drac: Doesn't mean the legislation imposing this isn't outdated now
19:38<Flygon>With proper ventalation, Diesel really isn't a problem
19:38<Flygon>Granted, this is also a partial problem with the City Loop
19:39<drac_boy>even the cleveland station (even if the track layouts don't seem to suggest it) was usually with steam being electric-hauled out of the station ... the electrification only finally died rapidly when large number of trains became emd hauled (hint: diesels)
19:39<Flygon>(the ventalation systems required are a tad expensive to run, so, they prefer advance warning. This doesn't mean that the random DMUs/Loco pax. trains routed through there immediately kill everyone, just that they prefer not to do that xP)
19:39<Eddi|zuHause><drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for <-- i don't think modern trams have DC engines in them. usually it's transformed to 3-phase onboard
19:39<Flygon>(and, yes, we have accidentally routed Diesel trains through our underground system. Metrol appear to smoke crack as part of their diet or something)
19:40<Flygon>(thank goodness a freighter hasn't been routed, yet)
19:41<drac_boy>flygon mind you for a short time (this was mentioned in the station story I read before anyway) a lot of the diesels were rerouted to other works so steam had to fill in the gaps [and the electrics were more often absent as well] and not surprisingly the railroad became embarrased when the smoke regulators caught onto this
19:42<Flygon>(Steam locos were used to shunt randomly here throughout into the 70s, but... obviously, almost our entire metropolis network is above ground
19:42<drac_boy>I imagine .. just for you to know the station had a large uphill curved viaduct to deal with on the south side .. so thats why the electric bankers existed till diesels ousted them
19:43<Flygon>(I'm not sure if any Steam locos have actually run live through the City Loop. Don't think the ventalation system is designed for it)
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>i once read a story on how a steam engine was used during construction of the Munich S-Bahn line under the city
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>because no other engine was available, apparently
19:45<drac_boy>flygon the funny thing is that a lot of the photos for electric-hauled trains out of CUT would more than often show a steady cloud of semi-white smoke coming out from all 6-8 drive axles .. I could be wrong but I suspect they were hitting the throttle hard with sander wide open
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>(this was prior to the munich olympic games, so in the 1970s, when steam was already on its way out, so this was like a museum engine that happened to be nearby)
19:46<drac_boy>just haven't noticed photos like that at any of the other electrified stations in northwest usa (or at least per PRR/NH)
19:46<Flygon>drac_boy: I was assuming they had a boiler used for the braking and heating systems
19:47<Flygon>Eddi: That'd randomly happen with VR here
19:47<Flygon>And the reason you see the (then) 100 year old EMUs running about in the 1980s photographed
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19:48<drac_boy>flygon well..the boiler was a bit rare and even then it usually was of a donkey style boiler with the smoke stack fitted to the roof
19:48<Flygon>Steam locos would randomly haul pax. too. Helped that most were either as or more powerful than their replacement Diesels @_@
19:48<drac_boy>only the GG1 were knowingly ordered with steam heating by design
19:48<drac_boy>(although they went through two generations..the early steam-like boiler and the later electric-heated-water "diesel era" boiler)
19:49<Flygon>(the R-class locos, when recommissioned by a private railway (West Coast Railways) in the 1990s and 00s would actually outperform the Diesels they ran. Despite being 40-50 years old at the time. They usually ran in MU operation with a Diesel, though)
19:49<Flygon>Hell, V/Line nowadays are practically running museum piece Diesels. A66 is still running, despite being about over 65 years old now.
19:50<drac_boy>btw heres one of these few locomotives that were common around the CUT areas till diesels killed them
19:50<drac_boy>and the long platforms was a rather normal thing back then re fitting more traction axles without having to make the body longer to match
19:50<Flygon> It runs on sheer absurdity
19:50<drac_boy>(plus a small degree of road crossing protection as well although I dunno about that)
19:50<Flygon>(sadly, the three other A's V/Line still 'have' are permanantly shut down. Mainly to provide spare parts for A66)
19:51<Flygon>drac, that's one of the weirdest looking electric locos I've seen
19:52<drac_boy>flygon well what else do you expect from usa during the 1910-1940's period? :)
19:52<Flygon>Streamliners everywhere? xP
19:52<Flygon>Then again, VR of the same period made some pretty clunky electric locos too
19:52<drac_boy>btw New Haven also was one of the only very few rare places in usa that you could actually find a double-cab carbody unit (NH's was electric but florida's was diesel-electric)
19:53<drac_boy>otherwise (as you probably knew) all carbody diesels elsewhere in usa were of the single cab variety (aside to the booster units themself)
19:53<drac_boy>one sec...
19:53<Flygon>They're both mechanically the same, note
19:53<drac_boy> heres the NH electric one
19:54<Flygon>(they ran off the same electrical equipment as the Red Rattlers, just.... in locomotive form)
19:54<Flygon>(even the bogies are the same EMU ones)
19:54<Flygon>drac_boy: 404
19:55<Flygon>"The exposure of the driver to this electrical equipment led to them being nicknamed "electric chairs" among drivers.". VR drivers must've been enthusiastic for their locos :U
19:55<drac_boy>hmm one sec
19:56<drac_boy>heres the slight newer version instead
19:56<drac_boy>don't mind THAT paintjob .. it was one that didn't live for a long time anyhow
19:56<Flygon>Interesting design
19:56<Flygon>Somehow thought the NH on the hood was Kanji for a second there
19:56<drac_boy>I'm not sure how much the dual cab configuration got used tbh .. someone would have to check an usa book that talked about them I guess
19:57<Flygon>VR used Dual-cab where possible on the urban network
19:57<Flygon>They didn't want to mess around with turning locomotives around
19:57<Flygon>A lot of old video of VR's operations tends to show tank locos running in reverse hauling a set
19:58<Flygon>They're sprightly little buggers too
19:58<drac_boy>well C&NW simply used push-pull mode instead ... although early on sometimes the mushup could be a bit funny (nothing like a light freight locomotive hauling an E8 which is then hauling three bilevel coaches ... and theres nowwhere to turn this around either)
19:59<drac_boy>flygon .. lol you mentioning tank reminds me of a crazy canadian story I read before (probably still have the magazine too) ....
20:00<drac_boy>the CN commuter (when VIA didn't think of existing yet ofc) train .. well .. lets say that some of them had to turn around in montreal ... normal orders calls for the train to stop on track A then the locomotive run around via B while the coaches are being loaded ...
20:01<drac_boy>but soon enough someone seem to had figured out to simply slow down the train a bit then run the locomotive directly onto B while the coaches themself drift into platform still staying on A .. then the locomotive back out to couple on (and even with the railroad police watching too, apparently noone cared!)
20:01<drac_boy>this probably saved a lot of time (and only having to throw one turnout alone)
20:01<Flygon>Just remembered a recent story from here...
20:02<Flygon>A66 hauling a set accidentally got routed into Souther Cross Platform 1...
20:02<Flygon>Which's the main INTERSTATE platform
20:02<Flygon>And has zero runaround facilities for locomotives...
20:02<Flygon>...and it got routed into the platform at the same time the XPT was due to go into it
20:02<Flygon>And there was no other spare DG/SG platforms for the XPT to go into
20:03<Flygon>Combine this with V/Line having no shunters nearby (because they aren't just about to reverse into the businest bit of track in Australia)
20:03<drac_boy>so where did the xpt really stop at? :)
20:03<Flygon>And the fact that the only other thing nearby wouldn't have been able to couple to it if it wanted to to pull it out (the XPT)
20:03<Flygon>Well... the XPT had to wait an hour
20:04<drac_boy>either way this is one of the things that used to push/haul the commuter trains on CN lines a long time ago and yep I know it almost could seem like someone rammed a short 2-axle tender into the cab ... as it seem "big" for a tank bunker :)
20:05<Flygon>V/Line had to quickly run a Y-Class locomotive out (quickly being a relative term... they max out at 65km/h. And they had to get spare paths to drive through. And this is in the dead middle of peak hour)
20:05<Flygon>In the ent
20:05<Flygon>V/Line were furious. Metrol were furious. Centrol were furious. Metro were furious. Trains for New South Wales were furious.
20:05<drac_boy>heh well "quick" has different definitions to different people you ask :P
20:05<Flygon>All because one single train accidentally got routed to the wrong regional platform
20:05<Flygon>( These're the Y-Class btw)
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>so the other train was too long to fit both trains on the platform?
20:06<Flygon>Eddi: Wrong gauge
20:06<Flygon>Victoria uses 1600mm, New South Wales uses 1435mm
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>how does that matter?
20:06<Flygon>And Southern Cross has two Dual-Gauge platforms. The other dual-gauge platform was occupied.
20:06<drac_boy>eddi...dual-gauge does not always cover an entire station for cost reasons as I recall
20:08<Flygon>Not just cost reasons
20:08<drac_boy>even then in europe (I know this is unrelated) there used to be some stations that for example if there was 3 separate platform tracks .. first one would only have 1500vdc, third one only had 11000vac, and the middle one had special signals re being switchable-voltage one (probably treated as a nonstop routing too)
20:08<Flygon>It makes designing points a pita
20:08<Flygon>And imposes speed limits for the DG half
20:08<Flygon>Er, for the BG half
20:09<Flygon>But, yeah
20:09<Flygon>Crap like this is why Victorians want the entire state to be SGized already
20:09<drac_boy>flygon heh about points .. I know theres one station that had two tracks but in an interesting design only one was dualgauge so it could sometimes make for funny looking operation where eg train leaves platform 2 .. cross over to track 1 for only one hundred meters .. then cross back to track 2 to get to the immediate mainline just so it can stay on its own gauge
20:10<Flygon>An entire portion of the busiest regional railway station in the country shouldn't be disabled because someone accidentally pressed the wrong button
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i know that Brenner station had (or still has) non-switchable voltage up to the middle of the platform. so the engine has to turn off power on the way into the station, run powerless to the end, and be pulled out by shunters
20:10<Flygon>(I note btw, that the only reason V/Line would've sent a Y instead of an N is due to all their Ns being busy with peak hour duties)
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>Brenner being the border station between austria and italy
20:11<Flygon>(the Ys are only spare surplus in peak due to being so pathetically weak in the modern context)
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, the highest point of the mountainous route
20:12<drac_boy>eddi .. heh well there was a switzerland (I believe it was the standard gauge side) train depot that a certain small fleet of emu's used .. well now the problem is it was wrong voltage .. but in a twist of fate most of the approaching track is downhill sloped .. so the emu in question simply would coast into the depot .. then after done one of the depot shunter (looks bit like the Kof II but not exactly one) would push it back uphill out of the way
20:12<drac_boy>flygon .. were the Y the ones that always never could get much of any trains up to any kind of speeds? or thats what I kinda recall from our chats before
20:14<Flygon>The Ys were designed for low use branchlines
20:14<Flygon>Cheap to run, and the branchlines rarely had speed limits over 65km/h
20:14<Flygon>As soon as they built up a big fleet of Ys the branchlines began shutting down
20:15<Flygon>So VR were suddenly left with a lot of 640hp locos that couldn't break over 65km/h
20:15<drac_boy>aha .. yeah I think I can see the resemblence .. there were some usa trains that were happy working slow but as soon as you tried kick them (re speed) they got horrible about it
20:15<Flygon>They tried to repurpose them for mainline duties but... that ended badly. Passengers despised them
20:15<Flygon>(they were built in the 60s-70s)
20:16<Flygon>So, they all got cascaded down to freight as additional horsepower. Which they actually did a decent job as
20:16<drac_boy>flygon oh btw it may sound weird but for a while on a particular older commuter railroad they sometimes only had one EMD E unit for a train and this was just about enough to run headend power but left little for traction purpose so they usually would just run one of their freight locomotive for traction .. now the thing is these were geared for only like 60-70kph maximum...
20:16<Flygon>And at least one got regeared for 90km/h as a commissioners loco (that is... one that's driven by the railway commissioner to dawdle about the network. No need to haul anything)
20:17<drac_boy>but it at least helped that even if they were slow .. the station lengths were very close together and these slow thing could really get up to full speed quite fast .. so the normal schedule wasn't too hard to follow
20:17*Flygon nod
20:17<Flygon>(the Ys that are still in existances are just used for shunting. They're too slow and weak to be useful for freight)
20:18<drac_boy>probably helped that there was no food service .. could you imagine trying to not spill your drinks every time the train threatened to take off like a kangaroo :)
20:18<Flygon>(and yet the Ts still keep going)
20:18<Flygon>Cup holders xP
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>i've never heard of food service on commuter trains
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>is that a thing that happens in america?
20:19<Flygon>( The oldest serving locomotive in Victoria is Y112... different class, just the same letter. VR liked to reuse class letters xP)
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20:21<drac_boy>eddi well some lines would have basic coldbar service .. this usually died out during the ever-ongoing price cuts in 1960-1970's tho
20:22<drac_boy>although the "amfleet" named amtrak trains did have a bit of unusual exception
20:22<Flygon>( This'd be the weakest VR locomotive I could possibly find (that isn't from the 1850s xP)
20:22<Flygon>150hp, 20km/h max. Diesel-Hydralic Shunter
20:22<drac_boy>actually I kinda like that sort of thing .. especially for to move one wagon around cheaply with just a single man needed :)
20:23<drac_boy>and btw sorry about this but I kinda need to go for now..maybe talk more another time :-s
20:23<Flygon>Currently used as a Steamrail Victoria shunter
20:23<Flygon>Have fun!
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20:24<Flygon> Kind of odd seeing Steamrail Victoria's pair of these hauling stuff around
20:24<Flygon>Even FREAKIER to realize the steam locomotive it's hauling is about the same age as it
20:24<Flygon>There's a reason the R-class are such good steam locos. They're the last of their kind x.x
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20:25<Flygon>Oh, I was wrong
20:25<Flygon> THESE are the weakest machines VR ran...
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>in our local branch of the DB Museum, they have a battery powered shunter
20:28<Flygon>Battery powered shunter?
20:28<Flygon>Yowee O_o
20:28<Flygon>Do they just swap the batteries over at a specific point and charge the batteries constantly on cycle?
20:28<Flygon>Or do they plug the loco itself in?
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>they probably plug it in
20:29<Flygon>I do reckon battery is actually extremely suitable for EMU use...
20:29<Flygon>The question is
20:29<Flygon>Would the companies be willing to convert stations into battery exchange points?
20:30<Flygon>Say, you're going from Melbourne to Echuca... good 250-300km long trip
20:30<Flygon>For two of the stops, the EMU parks, and gets it's batteries swapped over automatically by hardware under the railway station platform
20:30<Flygon>So it never runs out of charge
20:30<Flygon>Akin to a steam locomotive being given more water...
20:30<Flygon>And such a process wouldn't be very slow, either. It'd be quick
20:30<Flygon>Why has nobody designed this?
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20:31<Flygon>It'd be cheaper than electrifying, while offering most of the benefits...
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>germany had some battery powered railcars operating branch lines
20:35<sim-al2>Japan has a battery EMU with overhead wire charging
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i wondered a while back why that isn't more common
20:35<sim-al2>Cost I suppose, a diesel car is pretty flexible
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>instead of electric/diesel hybrids, do electric/battery hybrids
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>most lines nowadays are under wire at least on one end
20:37<sim-al2>I assume the train can run on overhead normally, but the station segment on the line is only the length of the platform
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, just schedule an hour of waiting time after each trip to recharge
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>or so.
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>i also don't quite know why battery service was discontinued (besides of age of vehicles)
20:40<sim-al2>I bet flexiblilty would be a factor, you could fuel up a DMU and send it somewhere else as a (slowish) express train
20:41<sim-al2>This is the Japanese unit:
20:42<sim-al2>25 km battery run
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>the german railcars had longer range, i think
20:44<sim-al2>I don't know what the actual range is, one article implied at least 50km
20:44<sim-al2>Also this one has air conditioning and the other nice things
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>this is a very old one:
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>and this a more modern one
20:46<sim-al2>The nose is almost like a Crocidile locomotive, but then it's compartments behind it
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>it says range 300km on that last one
20:47<sim-al2>At slow speed maybe
20:47<sim-al2>Pretty long life though
20:48<Flygon>According to some friends in another channel
20:48<Flygon>Main thing preventing hotswapping batteries is mechanical wear
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>of the electrical contacts, probably
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>batteries have the problem of being really heavy
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>for very little energy stored
20:49<sim-al2>Hanging an engine is not that light either :)
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>you still need an engine :p
20:50<sim-al2>Fuel though, is damn good on energy density
20:50<sim-al2>A little electric motor doesn't have to be heavy anymore
20:51<Flygon>Friends also point out that Aussie environment means strong aircons...
20:52<Flygon>You'd need backup Diesel for hot days
20:52<sim-al2>I guess the question is whether battery maintanence or engine mainanence costs more. The way I see it, diesel engines will only get more and more expensive...
20:52<sim-al2>I suppose it can be done, the Aussie DMUs already have aux engines anyway
20:52<sim-al2>For some reason...
20:53<Flygon>aux engines?
20:53<Flygon>I don't know about New South Wales, but
20:54<Flygon>The VLocity series in Victoria has two Diesel engines per carriages
20:54<Flygon>Only one at a time can actually power the hydralic transmission
20:54<sim-al2>NSW Hunters: An auxiliary 150 kW Cummins 6ISBe-G1 diesel engine drives a Newage Stamford UCI274H alternator to supply power for the air conditioning and lighting.
20:54<Flygon>iirc, there's also an electric motor per carriage too. But I forgot if that's a silly rumor, or proof that the VLos are powered by raw overkill
20:55<Flygon>NSW Hunters are in the same family as the VLocities! They're siblings :3
20:55<Flygon>The parent being the Xplorer/Endeavor series
20:55<sim-al2>I don't see what an electric motor would do unless they have battery jog
20:55<Flygon>Yes, I'm serious about there being railway geneology
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>extra power for train heating/electricity is not that uncommon i believe
20:56<sim-al2>Yeah, all they have the same QSK19 and aux engine
20:56<Flygon>sim: They're reportedly battery powered
20:56<sim-al2>In 'Merica, we steal it from the locomotive
20:56<Flygon>But... again, uncomfirmed
20:56<Flygon>I don't have the detailed technical specs on me, and my locomotive book both only does Aussie locomotives
20:56<Flygon>And it only covers the 1850s to 1990s
20:56<sim-al2>Some US locomotives were built with the ability to power a motor from the batteries for shop moves
20:57<sim-al2>Also quite a few units with hydraulic transmissions (the turbine powered things) had an electric motor so they could run into Grand Central Terminal on 3rd rail
20:58<Flygon>Oh, I've been grossly misinformed and confused
20:58<Flygon>The VLos do still have just one motor per carriage
20:58<Flygon>Just big 750hp ones
20:58<sim-al2>Yeah, I was going to ask where they shoved another :)
20:58<Flygon>Where the hell did I get told they had two motors per carriage...
20:58<sim-al2>Lots of DMUs do, just not hugenormous ones
20:58<Flygon>Still, they're grossly overkill
20:58<Flygon>They're actually capable of out-accelerating a fair bit of the electric fleet here
20:59<sim-al2>Nah, if you want to get up to 160km/h with a carriage that meets safety and comfort standards, that's a good thing to have
20:59<sim-al2>I wonder how much fuel they use though, compared to the locomotive trains
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>the hugenotts have engines now?
21:00<Flygon>sim: They suck more fuel than anyone in the industry wants to admit
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>man, these 18th century french protestant refugees are ressourceful :p
21:00<Flygon>They were designed as regional HSTs
21:00<Flygon>But they're currently being used as 160km/h interurbans instead
21:01<sim-al2>Well they wanted a diesel train with electric performance...
21:01<Flygon>Reportedly, in testing, the VLo units hit 210-225km/h for stress testing... so
21:01<Flygon>I would personally consider them HSTs. The transmission is expicitly designed for 200km/h
21:01<Flygon>But the railway related beaurocracy here is bloody nuts
21:02<Flygon>160 was chosen as to not require in-cab signalling. Any faster was deemed unsafe because they were worried drivers wouldn't see the signals
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>trains have to be able to run comfortably at 110% of max speed
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>so if they're designed for 200, they must be able to test run at 220
21:02<Flygon>And by 160 I mean, they're still allowed 10% overspeed. A late VLo running 177km/h is not uncommon. But the computer will emergency brake if it's going ay faster.
21:02<sim-al2>That's a mechanical thing though, the limits choose allow a safery margin
21:02<Flygon>And, Eddi has a point
21:03<Flygon>Given how old the XPT is... and that the XPT is being retired and replaced
21:03<sim-al2>Amtrak specs all the equipment at 135 mph for extra margin
21:03<sim-al2>Wow 177? That's a big margin
21:03<Flygon>My ideal XPT replacement would just be a souped up VLocity built for 220km/h... you'd need to fix up a few lines, allow for in-cab signalling, and get such a concept past the beaurocracy
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 135*1.6
21:04<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 216
21:04<Flygon>But even if the DMU wouldn't be allowed to hit it's real top speed, it's a reasonable futureproofing to design for. And given it'd be parts (and presumably couplable) to the VLocity, Hunter, and Xplorer series anyway...
21:04<Flygon>But, I'm armcharing the hell out of this
21:05<Flygon>In the end, I'd just use the VLocity as a derivative for sheer convenience
21:06<sim-al2>Trust me, if you don't want them I would take them
21:06<Flygon>Bonus points that the VLo has another sibling class running about in Western Australia explicitly designed for 200km/h (the current WA Prospector DMU units). The only real differences between both sets is the internal seating arrangements, catering, and the computers having different auto-emergency brake speeds
21:07<sim-al2>Sounds like you guys have the basis for the One True DMU
21:08<Eddi|zuHause>you know that in civilized countries, trains run at scheduled 300km/h...
21:08<sim-al2>They also didn't spend the money to have a complete highway network instead
21:08<Flygon>Eddi: Believe me, most of the population here DOES want an interstate HST
21:08<Flygon>An electric one
21:09<Flygon>But... we've instead become ridiculously good at building Diesel HSTs in a country that doesn't even have HST infrastructure
21:09<Flygon>Well, I mean... we have the infrastructure. The beaurocrats just pretend we don't. xP
21:10<sim-al2>That would great here, the one HST project under way right now is in Florida
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21:10<Flygon>Night Wo- dammit
21:11<Flygon>sim: What about the California HST?
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: unrelated, but what happened to the plan to destry half the barrier reef to expand coal mining?
21:11<sim-al2>Ok perhaps, but there's still room for a sneak attack to kill it
21:11<Flygon>(the real problem is... the two most politically popular HST lines are also the two hardest to build. Because you'd be dealing with building through the middle of a mountain range for both of them)
21:11<Flygon>Eddi: I wish I knew
21:12<Flygon>sim: True =/
21:12<sim-al2>Assuming that California doesn't start cutting everything to stay afloat
21:12<Flygon>The EASIEST HST line to build is Melbourne-Adelaide. The Melbourne-Ballarat portion has already been RFRified (meaning, HSR but we limit the speed to 160km/h because lol)
21:12<sim-al2>There's some speed upgrade programs, but those are improvements to existing services
21:12<Flygon>But nobody likes Adelaide
21:13<Flygon>And there's railway gauge problems to boot...
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: so, the country is 95% flat desert, and they want to build the HSTs exactly at the 5% mountains?
21:13<sim-al2>Lol, South Australia, the state no one knows about
21:13<Flygon>Eddi: Our two biggest metropolises are integrated into the mountains
21:13<Flygon>In fact
21:13<sim-al2>90% of the population is sane and lives on the coast
21:13<Flygon>Sydney's actually hit a serious urban growth barrier problem because of their mountains
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: isn't like singapore the size of half of sydney, while having more population than all of australia combined?
21:14<Flygon>But... yeah. Melbourne-Adelaide is easy. Most of the existing alignment is straight as hell. Just whack in an extra pair of tracks adjacent... the only real problems after that
21:14<sim-al2>This is the Florida HST locomotive:
21:16<Flygon>Are the Bacchus Marsh horseshoe curve (but the town'd probably be bypassed anyay), Adelaide Hills (which's... a mountain range. An incredibly frustrating one), gauge differences (which can be eliminated sorta by converting the Ballarat line to SG anyway (thus giving Ballan a HST stop instead), giving Ballarat a dedicated SG metro service, and extending the BG urban line to Bacchus Marsh), and the fact that despite it being t
21:16<Flygon>he single easiest HST line to build, there'd be no real political goodwill for it because most of the seats it goes through are safe seats.
21:16<sim-al2>I think, I just found something that shows a different design, but that model is from Siemens and the other one isn't
21:17<Flygon>And from a federal perspective, only benefits primarially Victorian townships (which can be seen as disproportionately benefiting Victoria)... because any alignment you take barely has any towns in South Australia bar Adelaide
21:17<Flygon>Because the entire population of South Australia lives in Adelaide...
21:17<Flygon>sim: Locomotive hauled?
21:17<sim-al2>Yes, HST style
21:18<sim-al2>One at each end
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>"safe seats" is the single biggest issue with majority voting systems...
21:18<sim-al2>Something something US politics
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>i might be biased, but i really like the german hybrid voting system
21:19<sim-al2>wow 79 confirmed orders now from various agencies
21:20<Flygon>sim: I admit I'm not a huge fan of locomotive HSTs
21:20<Flygon>But knowing how utterly, and please excuse my language here, fucked federal US railway regulation is
21:20<Flygon>There's no avoiding it
21:20<sim-al2>They will also serve commuter and long haul trains
21:20*Flygon nod
21:21<sim-al2>It was a low risk design for Siemens and now it will pay off well, especially if Amtrak jumps in
21:21<Eddi|zuHause>for those that don't know, the german system works that everybody has two votes: the first one elects a local candidate by simple majority rule, which comprise half the parlament, and the other half of the seats are filled up so it matches the proportional second vote
21:22<Flygon>Eddi: Here, it's the usual "Upper" and "Lower" house system with Preferential voting
21:22<sim-al2>The FRA regulations are outdate yes but most European units will not survive anything more than a side-swipe with 130 tonne freight cars
21:22<Flygon>But despite our voting system, we've had an unusually 'stable' political seats thingy
21:23<Eddi|zuHause>so the parliament in the end looks like a proportional one, but it keeps some local representation typial for majority voting
21:23<Flygon>sim: I aint denying that. That's why you get Australians to design crashworthy D/EMUs xP
21:23<Flygon>The VLocities here are absurdly crash resistant
21:23<Flygon>You can't say any other train is literally bulletproof (the front ends are made of kevlar!)
21:24<Flygon>This is in part due to being designed to hit level crossings at 160km/h
21:25<Flygon>Unfortunately, the most serious accident involving a VLocity involved one hitting a truck carrying cube stone slabs of rock
21:25<Flygon>Which's not only the most unlikely thing a VLo could hit at speed
21:25<Flygon>But the worst possible thing it could hit
21:25<Flygon>Passengers weren't too hurt, but everyone in the cab was moosh. The same result would've occoured with a locomotive train tbh.
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>so what's the benefit of a bulletproof train over a bullet train?
21:26<Flygon>Eddi: It's boganproof
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, meanwhile, german DMUs get completely smashed by hitting a car
21:28<Flygon>Mm x:
21:29<Flygon>It hit the truck around 115-130km/h, it was emergency braking
21:29<Flygon>Apart from the cab becoming utterly pancaked and the DMU derailed, the entire passenger compartment was untouched
21:30<Flygon>Hell, it was still running when that photo was taken...
21:34<sim-al2>Yeah, I think we need to borrow some Aussies, but we have a strong case of "not invented here", see the PTC specs, etc
21:34<Flygon>I imagine if our rail regulations were less stringent, they would've decoupled the 'functioning' railcar, and simply run it to the workshops for repairs
21:34*Flygon nod
21:34<Flygon>Australians mostly build themselves due to paranioa...
21:34<Flygon>Whenever we get overseas equipment
21:34<Flygon>It tends to fail pretty hard
21:35<sim-al2>Seriously, as far as I can tell the ETMS/ETCS did everything the FRA wanted, and already had the bugs worked out
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>have you tried turning it upside down after arrival? :p
21:35<Flygon>Eurotrams crap themselves in Melbourne due to either the heat or the network being built 'worse' than a European city
21:35<Flygon>(eg. tight curve lengths, overall much rougher track)
21:35<Flygon>(we recently had a C2-class Tram have it's wheel come flying off at speed!!!!)
21:35<Flygon> Oh, it was a standard C clas
21:36<Flygon>Eddi: None have rolled yet, thankfully
21:37<Flygon>Hell... before privatization
21:37<Flygon>We exported our Trams to Asia
21:37<Flygon>And Asians are picky as fuck buggers
21:37<Flygon>And it looks like the new E-classes might get exported to Euripe
21:38<Flygon>(ultimately, the Eurotrams faced the same problems the Pendos did in Finland. Our network and climate is just way too different for them to work correctly)
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, germans managed to build air conditioning into their trains that fail when temperatures get above 40°C
21:39<Flygon>We're having the same problem with heavy rail equipment too...
21:39<Flygon>Siemens are practically banned permanantly from Victoria after the saga with the Siemens Nexas EMUs
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>which happens about 3 times per year
21:40<Flygon>And the X'trapolises are already rusting away despite being less than 10 years old
21:40<sim-al2>Aren't they stainless steel?
21:40<Flygon>(Siemens (duh) and Alstom respectively)
21:40<Flygon>sim: Yes.
21:40<Flygon>The X'trapolises are so bad
21:40<Flygon>They're literally using stainless steel that can rust.
21:40<Flygon>My friend's theory is that they're using a pretty bad alloy
21:40<sim-al2>Getting a stainless steel body that can rust is ... impressive
21:41*Flygon laughs
21:41<sim-al2>Consider the US railcars from the 1940's and 50's still rolling around
21:41<Flygon>Sadly, it's not the first time it happened
21:41<Flygon>The Hitachi trains hit the same problem
21:41<Flygon>But the problems didn't manifest as quickly/severely
21:41<Flygon>(nonetheless, the buildiers of the Hitachi got booted in favor of Comeng)
21:42<Flygon>(note, Hitachi didn't build the trains, they only supplied the motors and transmission iirc. Those parts were topnotch and never failed)
21:42<Flygon>(so... Victoria has no beef with Hitachi themself. xP)
21:42<sim-al2>Stainless steel can corrode in salty and wet conditions, but still there are cars 60+ years old running fine
21:43<Flygon>Melbourne's very wet.
21:43<Flygon>We're the Seattle of Australia
21:44<sim-al2>Certainly, Amtrak has always bought stainless steel because the regular cars were rusting out after 20-30 years
21:44<Flygon>(I do note, the A-class locomotives are rusting too... but the problems clearly not too bad if V/Line are running around 65 year old A66 without problem)
21:44<sim-al2>Hmm, I've always liked the A's and B's
21:44<Flygon>(albiet, sparingly. They want to use it only in case of N-class shortages)
21:45<Flygon>The Bs and S's still run about
21:45<sim-al2>If only they could have shoved a HEP motor in there
21:45<Flygon>Ooh, yeah
21:45<Flygon>I forgot they lack HEP...
21:45<Flygon>It's too late to retrofit it now
21:45<Flygon>The poor things need to be in a museum
21:45<sim-al2>Yeah, that's really amazing, the US equivalents lived on into the 90's in commuter service but are pretty much gone except from the small railroads
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21:46<Flygon>'ey supermop
21:46<Flygon>sim: *nod*
21:46<sim-al2>Don't a lot of V/Line cars still have generators on them?
21:46<Flygon>Yeah. It's kind of incredible to realize that the A-class is the last of it's kind (pax. bulldog nose)
21:46<Flygon>V/Line cars? As in the carriages themselves?
21:47<Flygon>Or a separate HEP equivilant carriage?
21:47<sim-al2>Yeah, the H-sets I think had some
21:47<Flygon>If it's the latter, I think that's just for the Albury line, and A-class hauled sets
21:48<supermop>i'd love to buy a z1/2 headed to be scrapped and run it as a commuter special cafe car on the 96 rush hour
21:48<supermop>bar in the evening
21:48<supermop>store at north fitz depot
21:48<Flygon>Issue with the Z1/2's is
21:48<sim-al2>Oh sorry I was looking at the N types
21:49<Flygon>Is that it's impossible to get spare parts for them
21:49<Flygon>And they're literally rusting away
21:49<Flygon>It'd be easier to just guy a personal E-Class Tram. I'm not kidding.
21:49<sim-al2>No new types?
21:49<supermop>there are a handful of private owned non working zs
21:49<Flygon>Unless you'd want to run the Z1/2's on a personal railway that isn't subject to Yarra Trams regulation
21:49<Flygon>sim: New types?
21:50<Flygon>supermop: Aye
21:50<sim-al2>I mean new carriages on order
21:50<supermop>theres still 100-200 z1/2s out there mandated to be gradually scrapped/canabalized
21:50<supermop>so there should be at least a short term supply of parts
21:51<sim-al2>I mean the H-sets started life as EMU units
21:51<supermop>z3 would be easier to keep running but don't think they are scrapping those anytime soon
21:51<Flygon>No, I don't think V/Line is going to get any new carriages anymore
21:51<Flygon>Only new DMUs
21:51<Flygon>Actually, the Z3's are being rushed out as soon as possible
21:52<Flygon>They're only being continued because, unlike the Z1/2's
21:52<Flygon>They're parts compatible with the A and B's
21:52<Flygon>Or - Yarra Trams doesn't want ANY High-Floor Trams
21:52<sim-al2>Uhh any pages with info on the Z carriages?
21:53<Flygon>sim: If it weren't for their exterior making it hard to fit a facade, I'd say the Comeng series would be a reasonable H-class replacement
21:53<Flygon>But the Comeng are way more useful as EMUs
21:53<Flygon>And if anything, will last another 20 years
21:53<sim-al2>I suppose those could work, might have to do a lot of work to convert from 1500VDC power to (I assume) AC train supply
21:53<Flygon>sim: I don't have my sources on me. These were posts on Railpage. x.x
21:54<Flygon>The bodies of the Comeng are still perfectly cromulent
21:54<Flygon>And a lot of other parts
21:54<Flygon>Worst to worst, you put new motors in, other parts for AC, and bob's your uncle
21:56<supermop>Zs, As, and Bs would already be illegal here
21:56<Flygon>supermop: Where's 'here' again?
21:56<supermop>but in semi-private use one could likely get a waiver
21:57<supermop>the US generally
21:57<supermop>under ADA
21:57<Flygon>I like the B's, myself...
21:57<Flygon>They're incredible beasts
21:57<Flygon>I mean, if you HAD to make them low floor
21:57<Flygon>I'd say insert a low floor middle carriage
21:57<sim-al2>High level platforms are a thing...
21:57<supermop>chicago recently scrapped a bunch of L cars from the 80s with probably 30-40 more years left in them as they had bifold doors with center pivots
21:57<Flygon>(I have worked with the disable, and know the frustration x: )
21:58<Flygon>sim: The B1's were designed to have floor stairs that elevated at railway platforms
21:58<supermop>the high level tram platforms are still lower than the high floor trams floors
21:58<Flygon>But the feature was scrapped for the B2's
21:58<Flygon>supermop: SCRAPPED??
21:58<Flygon>What the hell
21:58<supermop>well more dumped in the ocean
21:58<supermop>than scrapped
21:58<Flygon>Why didn't they sell them to other companies?
21:59<Flygon>Melbourne could've made use of them, presuming affordable modification (particulary for 1500v and pantographization)
21:59<sim-al2>You guys would love JR East, they plan on dumping their stuff every 15-20 years now
21:59<supermop>ive had this discussion often, and basically, they would be illegal anywhere in the US or canada
21:59<Flygon>And since they're American EMUs, they'd be crashworthy in Australia
21:59<sim-al2>Ehh, L cars are small subway cars not great for long distances
22:00<supermop>hard to find somewhere with standard gauge 600V 3rd rail thaat wants a 30 year old non hadicap accessible train
22:00<supermop>basically only developing countries, but then its a bit patronizing to offload old equipment like that
22:00<Flygon>sim: I was suggesting for urban use
22:01<Flygon>The Sandringham line
22:01<Flygon>supermop: They'd prefer having equipment over having none at all
22:01<supermop>especially when it would come with an infrastructure bill so large
22:01<sim-al2>Not a lot of cities have the space or money, New York does it's own thing and everyone has different system needs
22:01*Flygon googles exactly what a centre pivot door is
22:01<supermop>bifold doors
22:01<Flygon>Oh jesus
22:02<Flygon>Oh, bifold door?
22:02<supermop>like on a b class
22:02<supermop>with a structural pillar in the center
22:02*Flygon rubs forehead
22:02<supermop>which can't be cut out
22:02<Flygon>Okay, yeah. That wouldn't fly here either.
22:02<Flygon>Still, in Africa...
22:02<Flygon>They could still loco haul them
22:02<Flygon>Or South America
22:02<sim-al2>If it makes you feel better, the other 80's trains are still going to be in service for a long time
22:02<Flygon>Or Asia
22:03<sim-al2>Too much work for any of those when they could get mainline trains for a bout the same
22:03<sim-al2>See Chile and their EMUs basically being Spanish
22:03<supermop>thats the thing though, most parts of asia with existing urban rail networks couldn't justify taking on a weird orphaned fleet
22:04<supermop>places that could like phnom penh have no extant rail infrastructure
22:04<Flygon>Still, in the end
22:04<supermop>and if you are going to build a network from scratch, the trains themselves are insignificant
22:04<Flygon>Dumping them into the ocean seems silly
22:04<sim-al2>Japan's small railways tend to take the old stuff, but their own systems match the big system's design standards
22:05<Flygon>Wouldn't you get more profit by scavenging the working parts, then using the rest as scrap metal?
22:05<sim-al2>Artifical reef
22:05<Flygon>I forgot artificial reefs are a thing
22:05<sim-al2>They took the parts off and dumped the shells
22:05<Flygon>Right, okay
22:05<supermop>so why no sign a deal with a manufacturer for delivery and 30 years or maintenance with attractive financing
22:05<Flygon>THAT makes sense.
22:06<sim-al2>^Supermop has is right, buying other people's castoffs doesn't sound as good as brand new
22:06<supermop>taking on old trains that you have to repair yourself vs canada underwriting a loan for bombardier to provide new trains and service
22:06<Flygon>Right, I forgot new trains tend to come with a warranty x.x
22:07<Flygon>RE: Canada and Bombardier...
22:07<Flygon>I am mildly surprised Canada hasn't gotten VLos manufactured there...
22:07<supermop>even for a poor country or city, you find either the manufacturer or its host country making you an offer you cant refuse
22:07<Flygon>Wouldn't Canada have a fair few Diesel interurban lines that could use a 160km/h train with the acceleration of a subway car? xP
22:07<sim-al2>Canada's previous government didn't like that sort of thing
22:07<supermop>kawasaki has a plant in new york
22:08<Flygon>(I'd also find it amusing if they kept the VLocity name in Canada :B)
22:08<sim-al2>Kinda of, the airport express trains have new Nippon Sharyo DMUs
22:08<Flygon>Airport trains being DMUs? O_o
22:08<Flygon>Only in Japan
22:08<supermop>^ home team cant win them all
22:08<sim-al2>Hmmm, I'm talking Canada
22:08<sim-al2>Toronto Pearson Express
22:08<sim-al2>Also diesel airport train or no airport train
22:09<supermop>N.S. does a ton of business in north america
22:09<Flygon>Ooh, right
22:09<supermop>in the US though, new york killed all of our train builders
22:09<Flygon>Sorry, brainderped
22:09<sim-al2>Yeah, they've gone full out here, Japan doesn't have the same growth it used to
22:09<Flygon>I am very surprised Japan hasn't expanded more agressively into Australia
22:09<Flygon>Then again, we have a poor history with Australia
22:10<supermop>st louis car company, pullman, budd, all went under shortly after desperately grasping at a subway bid
22:10<Flygon>Japan wanted to use Sydney's Double Decker EMU designs... I think they were cooperating with Comeng
22:10<supermop>winning a contract that they could barely afford to meet
22:11<Flygon>And then the Japanese company began having arguments with the Comeng engineers because Comeng kept saying "You can't do that! It'll make the train run worse/passenger flow worse", but Japanese half insisted that their way was better....
22:11<sim-al2>St. Louis and Pullman had problems way before then, they were basically being kept alive by transit contracts since Amtrak had the old passenger cars the freight railroads offloaded onto them and no one else bought American type stock at that point
22:11<Flygon>(Japanese DDs tend to have far worse passenger flow than Sydney's DDs...)
22:12<sim-al2>Japan seems to have DD for mostly express service or as a complement to the longer distance suburban trains, they really need short station stops for commuter
22:12<supermop>Flygon: i actually think the bombardier bilevels ubiqutous in north america unload easier than sydney
22:12<Flygon>sim: *nod*
22:12<Flygon>supermop: I admit I'm not entirely familiar with their design
22:13<supermop>sydney trains are a bizarre choice for an urban rail system
22:13<Flygon>It was built because it was cheaper than upgrading the lines
22:13<supermop>similiar layout but bigger areas at platform height
22:13<Flygon>Or: We designed the worlds first DDEMUs out of laziness
22:13<Flygon>That's the Austraaalian waaay~
22:13<sim-al2>Here's a long distance cross-Tokyo suburban type:
22:14<Flygon>Heheh, that random DD hump
22:14<supermop>smaller doors but easier to get to the vestibule internally
22:14<supermop>i've ridden one of those sets
22:14<supermop>green car was in the DD part
22:14<supermop>was on a chuo line limited
22:16<sim-al2>One of these?
22:17<sim-al2>I can't think of what bilevels have run on the Chuo line
22:17<Flygon>Note on the lead car
22:17<Flygon>How the lower deck is unaccessible
22:17<sim-al2>Although the rapid trains will get bilevels added to them in a few years, for 12 car sets
22:17<Flygon>Guess where all the equipment is
22:17<sim-al2>The lead car has the resistors there
22:18<sim-al2>Like a NS DDM
22:18<supermop>first one you linked
22:18<supermop>or similar
22:18<supermop>circa 2004
22:18<supermop>havent seen on that service since then
22:18<sim-al2>Hmmm, Chuo rapid right, and not out in the boonies?
22:19<supermop>it ran way out there, but i only hopped on from Tokyo to shinjuku
22:19<sim-al2>On the 215, the end cars have the resistors and the field-weaking electronics there, and motors on that car and the car next to it
22:20<supermop>had a green rail pass and feet were tired so grabbed that as it was the least absurd way to reserve a seat for such a short trip
22:21<Flygon>IRL stuff time. Thank you!
22:22<sim-al2>bye :(
22:22<supermop>japanese catenary always looks so sturdy in these photos
22:23<supermop>i know its mostly the angle and lens length used but still
22:23<sim-al2>It probably is, they run 1500 VDC in most city areas
22:23<sim-al2>Also earthquakes, and maybe the slightly smaller (but normal proporrtion) trains
22:23<supermop>looks much more engineered than most of the almost trolley wire stuff you see elsewhere
22:24<sim-al2>Well it does have 3 to 4 pantographs being pulled across it, sometimes more on the older subway trains
22:25<sim-al2>And the occasional locomotive on the JR lines
22:26<sim-al2>Lots of compound catenary too
22:26<supermop>whats odd is that so many lines have essentially custom/bespoke stock there
22:27<supermop>like JR or tokyo metro will place an order designed and built for a single service
22:27<sim-al2>JR East seems to have gotten the best cut of the JNR system, and they have money~~~~ to spend for perfect efficiency
22:27<supermop>so you have these weird outliers like ginza and marunouchi lines that are 3rd rail
22:28<sim-al2>It helps that they actually own a rolling stock factory and actually use lots of standard parts and designs
22:28<supermop>you'd thenk they'd order the same trains for the two of those at least, but there are actually slight differences
22:28<sim-al2>Ginza predated almost everything though
22:29<supermop>and a lot of the workhorse emus from a given time look pretty similar
22:29<sim-al2>I think they would have to raise streets to get enough room for mainline stock
22:29<supermop>but most special or rapid services get at least a custom aesthetic design
22:30<supermop>they can do it there
22:30<sim-al2>If you look at the express units, they tend to share traction systems and other stuff with the contemporary commuter stock
22:30<supermop>they were taking down the expressway between ginza and shiodome piece by piece last time i was there
22:31<sim-al2>That sounds like a mess
22:31<sim-al2>For example, the new E353 ( has E233 traction equipment
22:31<supermop>yeah - but in most of the world, you'd never get the special body shell or cab ends for such a small batch
22:33<sim-al2>They really want to keep people interested
22:33<supermop>i'm happy to see the commitment to industrial design at the institutional level
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22:34<supermop>oing to go watch seinfeld reruns
22:34<sim-al2>JR West is kinda interesting because they actually have to compete hard core with the other railways around Osaka
22:35<sim-al2>At one point they were trying to cut lines
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