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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-20

---Logopened Fri Nov 20 00:00:41 2015
00:11<Flygon>sim-al2: In the end, Victoria needs three things...
00:11<Flygon>1. Mass Standard Gaugization
00:12<Flygon>2. 25kvization of the overhead, alongside extending electrification to the main interurban line terminuses (which'll place the fate of the existing VLos in an interesting position. Unless they are repurposed to 100% replace the XPTs and boost NSW's regional pax)
00:13<Flygon>3. Mass purchase of 200-220km/h EMUs to go with the above for V/Line
00:16<Flygon>That's the thing...
00:16<Flygon>At least, with standardization at bare minimum
00:16<Flygon>Standardization won't push back more than a few billion...
00:16<Flygon>Waaay cheaper than this Metro tunnel they're pushing
00:17<Flygon>And all existing rollingstock is designed for SG anyway
00:17<Flygon>Even the Steam Locomotives are
00:17<Flygon>Except for the remaining pre-1940s designs in active use (which boils down to the K-class)
00:18<sim-al2>I'm sure the steam locomotives are not the state government's priority in line design anyway
00:18<Flygon>(which's a shame, because, I'd dare say the K-Class represents the bare workhorse attitude of VR's steam locos)
00:18<Flygon>And it's not too hard to preserve a few tourist lines
00:18<Flygon>And, in theory
00:19<Flygon>A few of these steam locos can be reengineered for SG... it's just not as easy as shifting the wheels by 165mm
00:21<sim-al2>How much of the lines will be doable though? You would need to regauge all the rolling stock and the locomotives too
00:27<sim-al2>I imagine changing over all the freight stock won't be cheap
00:40<Flygon>sim: Actually, the entire POINT would be to make freight cheaper
00:40<Flygon>Interstate Railroads have a surplus of rollingstock...
00:40<Flygon>It'd be very easy for them to bring it to VIC
00:40<Flygon>The most difficult step would be converting the Metro lines
00:42<Flygon>Exciting news
00:43<sim-al2>It's nice and all, but it almost certianly will hurt the prospects for fixing up the NEC tunnels in the Baltimore area
00:43<sim-al2>*assuming it actually happens
00:44<sim-al2>Although the fact that the Japanese government would help fund it is rather interesting
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01:27<Flygon>Oh no...
01:27<Flygon>sin-al2: I think A66's finally carked it :(
01:27<Flygon><Konaro> sounding like the end finally for A66?
01:27<Flygon><Konaro> Friday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh is operating as a coach due to a train fault
01:27<Flygon><Konaro> Thursday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh will be operating as a 3 carriage VLocity train today
01:27<Flygon><Konaro> Wednesday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh will be operating at a reduced capacity
01:27<Flygon><Konaro> Tuesday: 17:59 SCS - Bacchus Marsh service is operating at reduced capacity as 3 carriages instead of 6 carriages.
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01:41<sim-al2>Flygon: Is there an Aus rail channel?
01:41<Flygon>It's more an offshoot of an unrelated channel, and it's largely in a different IRC network, and it's International
01:42<Flygon>But it is chockers with Aussie train buffs
01:42<Flygon>Dunno how much you like furries tho
01:43<sim-al2>It's certainly not the only EMD to blow up at some point
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01:46<Flygon>It IS almost 70 years old
01:46<Flygon>Running off spare parts
01:47<Flygon>And in fact, it's kind of cobbled together from parts of a trillion locomotives by now
01:47<sim-al2>They did put a new engine in the 1980's though
01:47<Flygon>The only remaining thing that's truly almost 70 years old is the FRAME and shell
01:47<Flygon>But, yeah. It's ancient by Diesel standards.
01:47<Flygon>Even with it's mid-life refurb
01:47<sim-al2>Hence it became an "A", 12 cylinder turbo 645 instead of 16 cylinder roots-blower 567
01:48<sim-al2>Ehhh, tons of EMDs from the 60's and 70's around the world are still in service
01:48<sim-al2>They are incredibly tough engines
01:49<Flygon>A fair few B and S's (for the uninformed, they're un-renewed A-classes... or, A-classes without their mid-life refurb/upgrade) are still running around
01:49<sim-al2>Also helps that the N class are basically the same locomotive
01:49<Flygon>As well as the ever utterly unkillable T
01:49<Flygon>Yeah. N-class parts can be scavenged too, for some parts
01:50<Flygon>Either way...
01:50<sim-al2>Yeah, B's are double cab, S's single with a shunting cab on the other end
01:50<Flygon>The remaining A's V/Line has really need to be museumed
01:50<sim-al2>Isn't there one left?
01:50<Flygon>As in, the ones that're taken apart also donated to a proper heratage group
01:50<Flygon>V/Line has four on the register
01:50<Flygon>But only one operating
01:50<Flygon>iirc, one's 'able' to be reativated, and two are literally taken apart
01:51<Flygon>But this is very shaky memory
01:51<Flygon>I just know that they have four, but three are incapable of running without great effort
01:52<sim-al2>I suppose they can't be bothered to buy some other locomotives to use?
01:56<sim-al2>Well I'm off to bed, good night
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02:15<Flygon>Shit, I got distracted
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03:21-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:24<andythenorth>lo Alberth
03:36<andythenorth>this Arctic Basic economy is mostly oil-based
03:36<andythenorth>but no oil rigs until 1967 :P
03:36<andythenorth>somewhat limiting? o_O
03:38<@Alberth>ha :)
03:38<@Alberth>just move recommended start date? :)
03:38<andythenorth>maybe :P
03:38<andythenorth>or adjust the oil rig date, or put the oil wells back
03:38<andythenorth>‘but Andy, there are no oil wells in Norway’ :P
03:39<@Alberth>sure there are, just look at the screen :p
03:39<@Alberth>you'd need forests if you want to do norway :)
03:40<@Alberth>hmm, eceonomy around one or a few primary industries
03:41<@Alberth>ie all wood things, or all oil things
03:41<andythenorth>that’s what I’ve done
03:41<andythenorth>by accident, there are very few primaries
03:41<andythenorth>it’s a high-value manufacturing economy :P
03:41<andythenorth>the flowchart is very distorted because of that :)
03:43<@Alberth>he, some arrows are in the wrong direction :p
03:43<@Alberth>you could start with iron ore and forests until 1967 ?
03:44<@Alberth>livestock appears out of the blue?
04:10<andythenorth>ha ha
04:10<andythenorth>no farms :P
04:11<andythenorth>that breaks my savegame :)
04:22<@Alberth>ieks "svn add ...." :p
04:22<@Alberth>doing too much git :p
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04:25<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27450 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-11-20 10:25:27 +0100 )
04:25<@DorpsGek>-Feature[FS#6391](r27446): Lower the sell-chain button in the train depot GUI while dragging a vehicle over it. (Eearslya)
04:27<@planetmaker>working all day with git now, too, Alberth ?
04:28<@planetmaker>hm, nice feature
04:30<@Alberth>pretty much
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04:50<@Alberth>planetmaker: can we decide something for 6241? (FS#6241 - Move sprite ten units at a time in sprite aligner if ctrl is pressed) 8 seems the simplest?
04:52<@peter1138>8 is nearer 10
04:53<@planetmaker>as said back then: both 8 and 16 seem fine to me and I can't say I have a preference for either.
04:53<@Alberth>well, theoretically, 8 can cost you 3 extra clicks, and 16 can cost you 7 clicks :p
04:53<@planetmaker>So... 8? Then it's 8 moves across a tile
04:53<@planetmaker>well, then it's 8 :)
04:56<@Alberth>sounds good to me :)
05:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27451 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt newgrf_debug_gui.cpp) (2015-11-20 11:04:28 +0100 )
05:04<@DorpsGek>-Feature[FS#6241]: Move sprite 8 positions in sprite aligner with ctrl+click. (based on work by juzza1)
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06:10<__ln___> ~~~~~~~~^~~~
06:12<Wolf01>quick andy, get out of the water
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06:59<__ln___> _IÏ___T__T___
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07:01<Wolf01>__ln___, feeling artist today?
07:01<__ln___>maybe it's because i'm idle while the computer is compiling
07:02<__ln___>-cisely even
07:03<@peter1138>Clearly I need a slower computer.
07:04<Wolf01>instead i'm here, trying to figure out how to refactor some classes of my game
07:06<Wolf01>i need to eat a bowl full of SRP (single responability principle) before laying down the code sometimes
07:06<Wolf01>also i need to sleep more
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10:38<@peter1138>Hmm, I need some new strings for my violin...
10:38<andythenorth>gut a cat
10:39*andythenorth is not serious, remembering the channel is logged
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11:06*andythenorth has feature requests
11:06<andythenorth>is there somewhere I could add them?
11:07<@Alberth>bug tracker?
11:07<@Alberth>channel log?
11:08<@Alberth>suggestions forum?
11:08<@Alberth>your list of things to do
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>suggest a suggestion box
11:33<andythenorth>neat idea
11:33<andythenorth>we could have an approval process
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11:56<M-E>huh. usually the answer is 'DIY' in OS-related communities :P
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27452 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2015-11-20 19:45:10 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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14:20<Eearslya>What were your feature ideas anyway?
14:22<andythenorth>can’t remember
14:23<andythenorth>@seen Zuu
14:23<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 33 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Zuu> __ln__: Sure. And the price is not that bad if you would use VS a lot at work. But it said also that it provided some additional features present in todays VS for older versions.
14:31*andythenorth wonders about a ‘hide all’ windows hotkey, for use during construction
14:31<andythenorth>photoshop, you can hit tab key, and all the palettes are hidden, which is essential when drawing on a small screen
14:31<andythenorth>on 2x zoom, windows obscure the landscape too much to build easily, especially the station window, which also can’t be window-shaded
14:33<Eearslya>Hmm, I know that was a feature on the android mobile port, where hitting 'go to' on an order window would hide all windows until a station was selected
14:33<Eearslya>Not sure how/if that translates to the real thing
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14:56*andythenorth needs a GS :P
14:56<andythenorth>need to play a FIRS test game :)
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16:00<mikegrb>hmmm this station picked a bad place to call
16:01<mikegrb>he's working rtty split on 7047 and all of a sudden wiped out by QST QST QST DE W1AW W1AW
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16:28<mikegrb>worked my first split dx station!
16:29<mikegrb>Sint Maarten DXCC 518 on 7047.997 rtty
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16:30<mikegrb>woah that was all in the wrong channel, sorry guys :p
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17:05<Eearslya>I was..very confused for a moment
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17:05<Eearslya>Beginning to wonder if OTTD had even more to it that I didn't know
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18:37<drac_boy>sim-a12 or flygon either of you not asleep over keyboard? heh :)
18:43<sim-al2>Oh hi
18:43<drac_boy>how're you?
18:43<sim-al2>I'm good
18:46<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw what you think of this "ship"? heh
18:47<sim-al2>What is that?
18:47<drac_boy>marine V8 engine (probably rerated in some way) .. only one lone example was ever made when they had been thinking of making several models in production rate :-s
18:47<drac_boy>wiki not surprisingly has some info
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18:48<drac_boy>the turret-like cab was rather interesting .. better rearview/shunting view than the like of eg EMD FT
18:50<sim-al2>I can't tell if the cab is particularly high or the hood lower than normal
18:51<sim-al2>Seems a little bit of both
18:53<drac_boy>sim-a12 and of course the pre-1960's was an interesting era of locomotives built for specific tasks (instead of being a bit good at everything aka General Purpose heh) ...
18:53<drac_boy> thats a Lima T-2500 .. aka a low speed "haul everything but the sink" heavyweight :)
18:53<drac_boy>usually found in yard transfer tasks but also a bit of other things alike to that too
18:54<drac_boy>the "little" blue car parked nearby gives you an idea
18:57<sim-al2>EMD had an earlier attempt to improve visibility before the GP: the BL2
18:58<drac_boy>heh the BL2 sorta still missed it with the engineer having to get out of seat to see to the left past the high hood .. but it was a honest attempt nevertheless .. still useful for reversing at straight speeds
18:58<drac_boy>probably still would had been turned over to a RS-1 or any SW*** for yard shufflings
19:01<drac_boy>sim-a12 you want know what bnsf was rather a bit unusual for? (I know they probably was not the only one but they were the most photographed one tho!)
19:03<drac_boy>©-BNSF-train-H-DILLAU1-03-at-38th-Street-NW-West-Fargo-North-Dakota-USA-4-July-2008.jpg ignore the cherry red locomotive but can you see something 'wrong' with one bnsf locomotive there? ;)
19:04<sim-al2>That 404s
19:04<drac_boy>ah..let me try this newer photo instead then
19:05<drac_boy>I could give you a name hint if you want ^
19:05<sim-al2>Yeah B-unit
19:05<sim-al2>2nd pic is a GP60B
19:06<drac_boy>heh you got that right .. only sf/bnsf had them in numbers if photos says anything
19:06<drac_boy>kinda interesting as to why they did that but mm seeing one still being used behind almost modern Dash power is ever more amusing too :)
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19:06<sim-al2>First one, not sure, the dynamic brake pod is not like a GP60 and it's not a GE
19:07<sim-al2>Less cabs to maintain
19:07<sim-al2>But can't lead, so a mess if they start mixing power around
19:07<drac_boy>well tbh by the time the gp60 was out the cab was almost no additional value so it was better to order it anyway
19:08<drac_boy>just a little like how MU used to be optional but eventually the problems (plus low cost from mass-use) eventually probably made MU standard on almost everything
19:08<sim-al2>Apparently the dynamic brake resistors lasted a bit longer not being over the engine
19:09<sim-al2>Well just the manfacturing differences kicked in too, since the non-MU governors were different
19:09<drac_boy>oh and for the record .. even the GP9 still could be ordered in unusual ways if the old fashioned railroad wanted it .. heck you could have arch bar trucks *and* non-26L (I forgot the name of the other one) brakestand too
19:09<sim-al2>24RL, or maybe even a 6
19:09<drac_boy>I think that sort of things all disappeared by the time the GP20 and newer were out
19:09<drac_boy>never really hard of it by then myself anyway
19:09<sim-al2>26L didn't come out until the 50's or so anyway
19:09<drac_boy>sim-a12..ah yes...the 6 probably
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19:10<sim-al2>It's one of the 6 variants, that thing was around for a long time (turn of the century I think)
19:11<drac_boy>sim-a12 and if arch trucks were not unusual to look at in photos .. you sometimes could find a GP9 ordered with a very tiny (read: 3 feet of air gap between the tank and each trucks instead of close-clearance gap) fuel tank if the locomotive in question was ordered for low-range (especially stations) switchign works with limited axle loading
19:12<drac_boy>almost a bit like that PRR 0-6-0 slopedback tender switcher .. it had very low water supply but that didn't matter as the locomotive was built for shunting tasks so it was always very close to a water supply source
19:12<drac_boy>(although the 0-6-0 didn't have any axle loading problem so...heh)
19:13<sim-al2>Must have been some light rail for those
19:13<drac_boy>sim-a12 well a GP9 was a lot heavier than a modest 2-6-2 steam in standard configuration
19:14<sim-al2>Reminds me of the SDL39, 6 axles on something that weighted more like US 4 axles locomotives
19:14<sim-al2>and a turbo 12-645
19:14<sim-al2>True, but the freight car weights increased a lot during the 1950's and 60's
19:15<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh well some emd rebuilds/variations were interesting .. even to the point of an official (I forgot which generation) numbering for a de-turboed unit (lower maintenance for light duty work which didn't need much hp anyway)
19:15<drac_boy>I know it was somewhere in the GP15-GP40 range .. just forgot exactly where
19:16<drac_boy>btw even the "hi cube" big boxcar still was probably lighter than a SW1200 :)
19:19<drac_boy>sim-a12 about emd .. I still think the GP30 is something for looking a bit different due to needing the extra height to clear the additional electronics+turbo near the front section :)
19:20<drac_boy>I think some people considered it a 1950's-cars-alike fashion and mm I dunno what to think of that
19:21<sim-al2>I think the GP30 needed extra space for the intertia air filtering, as well as a lot more switching electronics ( It had field-weaking!!! )
19:21<drac_boy>well apparently the GP60 didn't need the high roof but thats probably due to modern technology :P
19:22<drac_boy>oh and sim-a12 one thing that was still obvious tho was how dynamic brakes was still optional even up to the SD/GP60 era ... as not all railroads really needed the extra-maintenance separate braking system that offered
19:22<sim-al2>Apparently the GP60 is still the same height
19:23<sim-al2>Canadian National thought that way for a long time, and now lots of there units have been fitted with dynamic brakes: It saves on brake shoes
19:23<drac_boy>still sorta made for interesting photos sometimes tho if you for example saw a train slowly coming downhill in a minor fog of brakesmoke and up front is a GP20 at home with dynamic leading a non-dynamic GP15 borrowed from another railroad
19:23<sim-al2>But yeah, switching units don't really get the chance to use them anyway
19:25<drac_boy>btw some of the 'hot' santa fe diesel freight trains did specifically have dynamic brakes later on .. but even then sometimes it could be disregarded due to it being slow to react (early version probably)
19:26<sim-al2>The older units didn't have particularly high capacity grids, and so offered fairly low effort above the optimal speeds (around 25-30mph)
19:27<drac_boy>heh well these were 50+mph trains so ... guess that makes sense
19:28<drac_boy>sim-a12 unrelated to this but its santa fe again tho .. you know how they usually prefered B-B units (F3, etc instead of E7, etc) due to the frequent grades they had on their main routes?
19:28<sim-al2>Also, fuel conservation wasn't as big a deal then, so power braking might be used to keep slack pulled in the train (especially on the rolling hills)
19:29<sim-al2>Yeah, E's and F's both had 4 traction motors, but of course E's tended to have more power and weight more
19:30<drac_boy>sim-a12 well the Alco PA was actually gusty enough to be able to hold down Chief assignments for many years (the initial test basically had the motors unloading at same time which stalled the train but to everyone's surprise it restarted without assistance and got up to speed quite fast .. and this was for having A1A trucks)
19:30<sim-al2>Which leads to problems with those older, lower capacity traction motors with high speed gearing, such as very high minimum speeds for full power
19:30<drac_boy>that was the only non B-B units santa fe ever allowed
19:31<sim-al2>GE built higher capacity motors than EMD did at pretty much any point, especially the GE 752 traction motor
19:31<drac_boy>interesting ending to the story .. one of the PA was re-engineered by emd but it soon had to be derated due to insufficent cooling and so the project was abandoned after only one A-A set was converted
19:31<sim-al2>Of course GE was an electric company in a way that a GM division never could be
19:31<drac_boy>not sure what eventually happened to the remaining PA fleet after that
19:32<sim-al2>Scrap probably :/ The Alco 244 engine wasn't the most reliable
19:32<drac_boy>then again wasn't it santa fe that gave us the weird BEEP unit which was half geep, half switcher? :P
19:32<drac_boy>I think only one single example again was built then the project got stopped
19:32<sim-al2>the 251 was a lot better, but GM had a lead at that point and never let up
19:33<sim-al2>Yeah, apparently it the 70's and into the 80's it was a lot cheaper tax wise to "rebuild" a locomotive almost totally rather than buy a new one
19:33<sim-al2>And Santa Fe had the shops to do it
19:34<drac_boy>btw the Alco PA was pretty good on some railroads so I guess it partially comes down to personal maintenance differences (this being obvious where when amtrak bought out santa fe's steam-vapour-operated-climate coaches they would fail more often on non-santafe routes, no bleeping surprise there!)
19:35<drac_boy>santa fe was the only one to have these sort of mixed steam&ac heated coaches in big number .. because santa fe's train often ran through many different climates all the times (unlike eg PRR which was a very narrow geography area)
19:35<sim-al2>Santa Fe really was the best track and equipment in its day
19:36<drac_boy>sim-a12 tbh it was actually IC who had very good highspeed tracks for a while till either IC or Amtrak finally reduced the maximum speed allowed (probably amtrak not wanting to have to pay a big premium for the speedup I think tho)
19:36<sim-al2>Yeah, Amtrak converted most of the cars in better condition to 480V power because the steam systems were a mess
19:37<drac_boy>I forgot but I think IC had it initially designed for 100mph or so (which was a bit fast for the F7 units to be doing at with conventional boxcars in tow!)
19:37<sim-al2>Quite a few railroads that had ATS removed it right before Amtrak came in so they wouldn't have to maintain it
19:38<sim-al2>And not having ATS or one of the other safety systems meant under 80 mph speeds
19:38<sim-al2>Yeah, I remember reading about the IC GP40s that could hold 90 with freight
19:39<drac_boy>also I forgot if it was related to IC or was a different railroad but there was one that had really-fast-freights partially thanks to advanced signals (eg the first signal could tell you what to expect at the second signal and I don't mean a single orange aspect) .. but when the old signals were replaced with a more basic (aka just simply green/orange/red 3-aspect) the track speed had to be cut back to just 79mph
19:39<drac_boy>this was pre-ats anyhow
19:39<sim-al2>I don't know that 90+ is particulary safe when plain bearings were still around...
19:40<sim-al2>Hmm, quite a few railroads have multiple aspect signals, that was meant to save on fuel and brake costs
19:40<drac_boy>well a lot of the IC express freights had relatively new wagons to match the new demand (especially special yellow banana cars too)
19:40<drac_boy>so I imagine they were roller bearing by then
19:41<sim-al2>Probably, I think plain bearings on interchange were banned by the 80's anyway
19:41<sim-al2>Hence why cabooses disappeared soon after
19:42<drac_boy>btw the piggyback trailers were also relatively new .. that explains why santa fe had no problem using "hot" 70mph GP60's heh :)
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19:43<drac_boy>they did sometimes pack a lot of power on these few hotshot trains just because they wanted to .. and this was during very low diesel fuel prices too (can you imagine four recent geep units with less than twenty wagons?)
19:43<sim-al2>You know, I've never understood why ATS or some similar system was never required, I mean PRR cab signals came around after the government required all the major railroads to build an advanced safety system
19:43<drac_boy>admittly because it was a scheduled service it always had to run even if that meant it was just a single EMD F7 with one lone piggyback wagon and no caboose!
19:44<drac_boy>quirky if you ask me ^
19:44<sim-al2>Yeah, the hotshot freights were neat, but didn't last too long
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19:45<drac_boy>sim-a12 on the opposite side (re non-hot freights) there was one interesting thing that did capture some photographers....
19:47<drac_boy>BN was just starting to kick out the carbody diesels with the ever-incoming orders of various GP units .. but then there was a bit of a coal boom and suddenly BN wasn't only halting any scraps/sales but even buying back various units cheap from other railroads .. cue finding a mixed freight train doing just 35mph with like *eight* mismashed F units powering it
19:47<drac_boy>eventually BN could get enough new geep units around to slowly start retiring the carbody units a second time around
19:48<drac_boy>but heh yeah .. think about that .. eight F units where the same train later on could be just 3 or 4 GP units :->
19:48<sim-al2>Hmm, sounds like those units might have been a bit abused to death by that point
19:49<drac_boy>sim-a12 well the F units were like I think 800-1500hp each while the GP started at like 1500hp but went up quickly
19:50<sim-al2>FT was 1350hp, F7 1500hp, F9 1750hp
19:50<sim-al2>GP7 was 1500hp, GP9 1750hp
19:50<drac_boy>sim-a12 and don't forget low turbo rating or very worn pistons .. so thats why I guessed at 800hp
19:50<sim-al2>No turbos until the the GP20*
19:51<drac_boy>actually .. the F7 pretty much did have Roots
19:51<sim-al2>Although a worn engine and cut-out traction motors would definetly take a toll
19:51<sim-al2>That's a supercharger
19:51<drac_boy>oh .. well whatever I mean you probably get what I mean re low or no boost right?
19:52<sim-al2>Crankshaft driver, as opposed to the hybrid exhaust drive unit that EMD developed for the GP20 and later
19:52<sim-al2>Eh a 2 stroke diesel needs a source of positive pressure for effective exhaust scavenging
19:53<drac_boy>btw that reminds me .. there were actually a few (specifically ordered for passenger work) units that only had one engine instead of two for traction purpose .. not sure I recall why
19:53<sim-al2>And a simple supercharger will do it well and reliably
19:53<sim-al2>Some E's had baggage compartments in the place of the 2nd engine
19:54<drac_boy>there was also that strange F unit that looked like a B not A unit except it did have a full-featured flat-front cab so it sorta was the shape of a B unit but could be treated as an A unit .. reasoning as I recall was so the train could start as a streamlined A-B set but later break the train into two and let the "B" unit power away on a separate route by itself
19:54<sim-al2>*UP had some experiemental turbo-charged GP9s for the high altitude mainlines where the regular ones were not doing so well
19:54<drac_boy>wish I could recall which railroad that one odd unit was on
19:55<sim-al2>Rock Island
19:55<drac_boy>doh...that is so much it . yep .. strange thing eh? :)
19:55<drac_boy>mm two of them built? interesting
19:55<sim-al2>Got to keep the streamlined look :)
19:56<drac_boy>well thats what I said no? streamlined A-B ;)
19:57<drac_boy>btw I believe it was also Rock that bought cheaply these then-unwanted "Aerotrain" thinking they could stuff them into commuter service .. but of course the poor little engine wasn't up to the task of frequent stop-n-go among other plausible problems with such change of duty
19:57<sim-al2>The EMD turbo charger actually has a gear train that allows it to be engine driven for lower engine power outputs, and then speed up to behave like a regular turbo once the exhaust flow is high enough
19:57<drac_boy>Rock always did have a few quirky things going for their railroad :)
19:57<sim-al2>THey had the TA too
19:58<drac_boy>too bad that their "modern" light blue (with white font) paint on new diesels was not long lived when the entire network decleared bankrupt due to gov-inflicted cost spirals
19:58<drac_boy>and of course soon the whole PRR+NH (aka PC) soon fell down hard too
19:58<sim-al2>Yeah, the whole regulated cost structure for railroads and unregulated cost structure for trucks was kinda stupid in hindsight
20:00<sim-al2>Yeah, PC's death spiral nearly messed up the whole east coast
20:00<drac_boy>ah.. the TA I almost forgot that little thing :)
20:01<sim-al2>Best part about the Aerotrain was that the locomotive was basically an SW1200
20:01<drac_boy>sim-a12 I do know that the TA was not the only 'small' thing tho .. one sec...
20:04<drac_boy> this was one of the few things during the short-lived "lightweight train" craze .. the height compared to conventional F unit nearby is a bit noticeable too
20:05<drac_boy>one of the set was only ordered with a forward power unit so the tail sometimes rode a bit hard .. the other set had power at both end but (bad luck) one of them caught fire on its press train and sure enough soon fizzled out from the timetables after only a short time
20:05<sim-al2>Jeez the Erie unit to the right looks like an Australian locomotive, GM's paint designers recycled designs :)
20:06<sim-al2>*Talgo cars
20:06<drac_boy>hard to say
20:07<drac_boy>seem like just one axle per car
20:07<sim-al2>Looks like this:
20:07<sim-al2>Many Talgo cars have passive tilting mechanisms
20:08<sim-al2>Apparently these units for NH had steps DOWN into the car
20:08<drac_boy>sim-a12 also would you believe that even Budd joined the lightweight craze themself too .. by simply taking the RDC-1 and redress one end with a different nose cab style? ;)
20:09<drac_boy>yep here we go
20:09<sim-al2>Yeah, I wish something a bit more substantial had remained from that era...
20:09<drac_boy>torch the nose off and put flat panels back on and you got a RDC-1 again (sorta)
20:10<sim-al2>There's still RDCs out there needing rebuilds
20:10<sim-al2>Apparently this one still exists in a museum
20:11<drac_boy>sim-a12 the funny thing is that some railroads really *love* the rdc even if its very expensive to completely gut and rebuild it (after all this results in fresh seat cloth and fresh axle bearings for example) .. part of the problem is because the rdc was sorta pre-fra and your modern fra would never allow a new one on the basis of safety and other things
20:12<drac_boy>even that particular colorado bilevel dmu had some things like a bigger crash-buffer zone in front of the cab etc just to be able to let fra sign off on it
20:12<sim-al2>Ehh, it comes close to modern standards and the body is super durable
20:12<sim-al2>The cab might be a bit unsafe though
20:13<drac_boy>that is why .. mainly the flat cab right on front
20:13<sim-al2>The Colorado cars have other problems
20:13<drac_boy>the colorado units had a van-like (roadwise) nose for that reason
20:13<sim-al2>I assume they wanted aerodynamics more, some cars have flat ends
20:13<drac_boy>but yeah I was just quipping why a new rdc can't just be built as-is partially in name of FRA
20:14<drac_boy>btw flat end is only a problem if you want to do 90mph for a long time :)
20:14<drac_boy>even then the budd rdc gearing could be crazy with both engines operating :P
20:14<sim-al2>Would you build an F7 and try to sell it today?
20:15<sim-al2>RDC had two engines mainly as there wasn't the powerful engines we have today
20:15<drac_boy>btw the Danish IC3 is an interesting quirk .. its caved inward .. yet they are supposed to be able to run at 180km/h!
20:15<drac_boy>it just shows that sometimes streamlining isn't considered
20:16<sim-al2>Each one only put out 275hp, and yet the RDC was faster and more powerful than most other countries DMUs for decades
20:16<sim-al2>IC3 is short distance though, they valued easy walkthrough over long distance efficiency
20:17<drac_boy>sim-a12 well many of the rebuilt ones had newer (especially some being cummins) engine so you could eventually be looking at 2*600hp (subtracting the non-traction electrical loads)
20:17<drac_boy>sometimes this wasn't for speed but just for being able to still source new repair parts (so yep even the 2*600hp unit still only run at a lazy 40kph all the time)
20:17<sim-al2>Do they have two engines? That seems rather unncessary if you can drop a single 600hp engine in
20:18<sim-al2>*the rebuilds
20:18<drac_boy>well sim-a12 I believe its due to the drivetrain .. the hydraulic would be a bit complicated to try redo for 1-engine-2-trucks repower
20:18<sim-al2>40kph would be bad track
20:18<sim-al2>VIA still runs them out west right?
20:19<drac_boy>sim-a12 .. well thats the thing .. the rdc was often used on low traffic line (and even then theres also one special case in canada where *no* road service exists at all!)
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20:19<drac_boy>and low traffic means low budget so rails probably would only be fixed enough to safely keep fra from relabelling it as exempted (aka no passengers and only 5-10kph max freights)
20:20<drac_boy>hmm .. was it 'exempted' or 'class 1'? I forgot .. will have to find a source and check
20:20<drac_boy>you get the idea tho
20:20<sim-al2>FRA doesn't allow passenger operations on exempted track, class 1 might be around 10mph
20:22<sim-al2>This page ( implies one 480hp engine (and an aux engine for electrical)
20:23<drac_boy>ah .. probably as they are only running on their own so one truck having no power didn't matter
20:24<drac_boy>mind you even budd themself did have a particular rdc-* classification that included baggage space with only one engine installed ... likely due to being paired with a twin-power unit anyway
20:24*drac_boy looks
20:25<sim-al2>the 9 has no cabs and one engine
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20:25<drac_boy>RDC-9 one engine all-coach .. RDC-4 twin-engine no-seat baggage
20:26<drac_boy>most people often think of the RDC-1 which isn't a surprise tho (the all-seat version)
20:26<drac_boy>I still wonder where -5 through -8 went to .. internal affairs maybe
20:27<sim-al2>I think they came up with the 9 when they realized that some railroads were towing around regular cars, and were worried about the transmissions overheating
20:28<drac_boy>sim-a12 but anyway .. I dunno where I found this (and why do I still remember this??) but B&O had one budd rdc that ran a route of 300+ miles in scheduled service .. bit crazy to run just a single lone unit over a very spread out low loading
20:28<drac_boy>I suspect B&O really did it just to promise connecting service rather than as an actual schedule on its own
20:29<sim-al2>The ICC didn't let the railroads drop passenger services to places that would otherwise be left without any very easily
20:29<drac_boy>maybe .. this was in the 1950's or slight earlier as I recall anyhow
20:30<sim-al2>Apparently the Southern Pacific got into trouble several times for discontinuing service illegally and making their services worse and worse
20:30<drac_boy>sim-a12 oh and did you know that SF actually ordered two (or at least two anyway) rdc's but they overturned themself at high speed on a curve so soon they got banned from ever working
20:31<sim-al2>924 mile express run!
20:32<drac_boy>heh interesting
20:32<drac_boy>btw trying to find the accident now here one sec
20:33<sim-al2>Hmm I now remember reading about the Santa Fe thing; weird thing is looking at a BC rail timetable the RDCs were allowed fairly high speeds in places
20:33<drac_boy>1956 - just as I guessed
20:34<drac_boy>SF probably wisely sticked to a F unit with one or two conventional coaches afterward I think I'm guessing
20:35<sim-al2>I think the San Diegans were usually longer, certainly under Amtrak they have always been several cars
20:35<sim-al2>Now bilevels as the Surfliner
20:35<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw what do you think should haul a budd bilevel commuter car? :)
20:36<sim-al2>Electric locomotives
20:36<drac_boy>C&NW actually ordered the early generation one (likely with steam lines) and used them behind eldry 4-6-0's etc for some time (before the yellow F/E units came to being at all)
20:36<drac_boy>these engines didn't have a problem even with five such coaches behind the tender (and sometimes standard heavyweights mixed in on the tail too)
20:37<sim-al2>You know this picture ( ) is from over 40 years ago and I recognize some of those houses
20:37<drac_boy>they were the only railroad to really have steam-hauled bilevels if I recall :)
20:37<sim-al2>Heh, bilevel steamers
20:37<sim-al2>Hmmm, French had some early carriages with seating on top, although not exactly a bilevel per say
20:38<drac_boy>sim-a12 also did you know that the GS-1 steam locomotives finished their duty doing commuter services on SP? (especially with many of the Harrison coaches in the mix too)
20:38<drac_boy>fancy finish for what was a well made fleet
20:39<drac_boy>it made sense anyhow considering that the diesels were bumping the GS-1 off the mainline after all .. and they were "free" to be reused for commuter service
20:39<sim-al2>Not the most glamorous finish, but fitting in a way
20:40<drac_boy>sim-a12 one reason why was due to the way steam worked .. they could do stop-go-stop-go better than a diesel would (even the fresh new GP9 couldn't replace them for a while even after some trials, eventually reassigned to non-rush slots which was a bit slower instead)
20:40<sim-al2>Uh noooo
20:41<sim-al2>Steam engine was signifcantly worse starting tractive effort than a diesel of the same weight
20:41<Flygon>I'm giggling like a raw idiot. Subbing a piece to an art site, actually get to name it ??????
20:41<sim-al2>Or even weight on drivers
20:41<Flygon>(Dragonair Airline's actual name)
20:41<drac_boy>weird thing is the same problem happened with some station shunters .. the diesels sometimes couldn't even keep up (especially with lacking drop-kick capacity)
20:42<drac_boy>flygon heh weird :)
20:42<sim-al2>Not to mention all the EMDs that were in commuter service around New York until the early 2000's
20:43<sim-al2>So a express steam locomotive could be faster than a diesel of half the horsepower given enough distance, but it costs more than twice as much to run
20:44<sim-al2>The Brits purged commuter steam locomotives long before the expresses
20:44<drac_boy>you're assuming that because you forgot that the diesel can't hold energy to jump with .. while the boiler can
20:44<sim-al2>Even the tank locomotives that could run both directions
20:45<sim-al2>Doesn;t matter
20:45<drac_boy>it did .. as both SP and various station shunter railroads did
20:45<sim-al2>That's not how physics work
20:46<sim-al2>The power output is still limited to the firebox's capacity to keep boiler pressure up
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20:46<sim-al2>And the propensity for the drivers to slip
20:46<drac_boy>sim-a12 then how come the diesel can't keep its engine at full rpm all the times as to be able to get full load right from the start?
20:46<sim-al2>It can, see the EMD F40PH
20:47<sim-al2>The only reason they don't is part longevity and part noise
20:47<drac_boy>that was due to the "howling" generator
20:47<drac_boy>they later had a separate small unit to keep the generator running
20:48<sim-al2>Ok, the engine still ran at 900 rpm and power controlled solely by alternator excitation
20:49<sim-al2>Some EMD switchers had a special running mode where the engine ran at constant speed and load was by excitation control only, apparently those loaded very very fast
20:49<drac_boy>yeah fair enough but GP9, SW1200, etc all were basically with very little ampre being ready when standing there waiting for the signal
20:49<sim-al2>You know the amperage is limited at low speeds to not slip the wheels excessively, right?
20:50<sim-al2>Those engines took only a few seconds to load, full power avaliable from around 10mph
20:50<drac_boy>btw I always did wonder if the F40PH design had been meant when trains were shorter .. I dunno tbh .. it was always funny that they were loud howlers in stations due to the main engine still having to keep the generator running
20:51<sim-al2>It was necessary to produce 480v Three Phase power with the main engine
20:52<sim-al2>They could produce enough power to haul a consist of 10+ Superliners, although traction power started to get low at that point
20:52<drac_boy>heh well the F7 had HEP capacity as well but noone seem to have written about them being noisy .. or maybe they didn't realize it at that time?
20:52<drac_boy>what you think anyway?
20:53<sim-al2>F7 HEP was a mod only done by a few companies, they usually shoved a small truck-class engine in place of where the steam generator would go
20:53<sim-al2>Usually not a very high output
20:55<sim-al2>noise regulations here were not very tight either, see the EMD export units to the UK and Australia that have visibly large humps for mufflers
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20:57<sim-al2>One more thing, the large drivers and the connecting rods have a very high angular momentum compared to traction motors
21:00<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw one other thing about F units now that I recall it (especially from canada angle) ...
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21:01<drac_boy>the reason you might see eg F3 A-B or A-B-A (even although it could had been A or A-A in both cases) because at the time the steam boiler in cab units were a bit weak while the B body had more space for slight better ones
21:01<drac_boy>I forgot when the transition was but I think it was either the F7 or F9 that had improved A unit steamheat capacity
21:01<[Franklin]>is it possible to work as a dev entirely in git?
21:01<[Franklin]>or will I have to re-learn my version control to work on openttd?
21:02<sim-al2>The A's also had small water capacity, the FP7/FP9 had extended body length for more water
21:02<drac_boy>then again having a F3 leading a boiler-equipped-too- GP7 also was done in usa too not surprisingly
21:02<drac_boy>ah..yeah water too...
21:03<sim-al2>Might need some extra for Canada :p
21:03<drac_boy>sim-a12 silly guessing game for you...
21:03<drac_boy>whats even longer than a FP9 itself? while still using the same numeric? ;)
21:04<sim-al2>FL9, aka the ghetto third rail diesel
21:04<drac_boy>heh right .. also it had B-A1A to saddle the extra weight of transformer and/or boiler with too as I recall
21:05<drac_boy>and there was the eventual rebuild of FL9AC but I got no clue what anyone thought of these in service tho
21:05<sim-al2>Boiler probably, DC third rail only, apparently the viaducts had mean weight limits
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21:06<sim-al2>I haven't seen any good reports about the ACs, they disappeared quickly and were scrapped for the valuable parts that could be recovered
21:06<Flygon>[Franklin]: There is interested people hre, but I don't know if they're awake atm
21:06<drac_boy>well before they finally rusted away I recall that due to the 1970's style low maintenance a lot of the FL9's "lost" their 3rd rail shoes to the point that even sometimes they would still run into Grand Terminal etc under full diesel power even although this was technically supposed to be banned!
21:06<drac_boy>talk about treating a FL9 as an almost-FP9 unit :)
21:07<sim-al2>Yeah, New York seems to have bad luck with the dual mode diesels, only the P32 is any good at it
21:08<sim-al2>FL9's system was not reliable, a DM30AC actually burned out due to a short caused by a shopping cart
21:08<sim-al2>P32AC-DM, Amtrak and Metro-North have them
21:09<drac_boy>ohhh the genesis units .. hrm I see
21:09<sim-al2>The third Genesis variant, same body as the P40/P42 but with AC traction and a 12 cylinder engine
21:09<drac_boy>say that photo of them reminds me of something perhaps similar . one sec...
21:10<sim-al2>Also they have an inverter HEP system, so the engine doesn't have to run at a constant speed
21:11<drac_boy>yep .. I thought LIRR had something and they do .. but from emd instead .. I remember reading a story about the initial batch of them ... one of the many problems crew found with them was a silly one: their horn was TOO LOUD
21:12<drac_boy> thats what emd named them apparently
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21:13<drac_boy>who would had thought you could make a horn too loud tho? still makes me wonder sometimes
21:13<sim-al2>They seem to run ok now, but were quite a mess at introduction
21:14<sim-al2>Apparantly the FL9AC and the DE/DM have similar traction equipment
21:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw unrelated as always but I remember a 'classic trains day' kind of article from LIRR ....
21:15<drac_boy>it was of a platform conductor (forgot exact job name) during the 1950-1960's era and he actually mullied about not knowing much about different locomotives but did find in general that the frequently-alco diesel locomotives and various 3rd rail electric coaches often had lot of problem with winter especially unplowed routes while steam (which was often taken from PRR sheds so it would be the like of K4, etc) always soldered
21:16<drac_boy>I probably could maybe believe his viewpoint there given the technology conditions that existed in the early 1950's
21:17<sim-al2>Probably, the crews knew how to keep the steam engines running, and not so much about the engines
21:18<sim-al2>3rd rail can also get iced up and cause arcing/brief power losses
21:19<drac_boy>thats why some above-ground 3rd rail trains actually had under-contact shoes as this was a bit more immune to buildups (assuming the shoes were not riding too low to the ground in first place)
21:19<drac_boy>I forgot if this was just specific to some europe areas or usa even tried it too
21:20<sim-al2>Yeah, around New York on Metro-North that have under running
21:20<sim-al2>And sometimes boards above the rails to try to keep snow off
21:20<sim-al2>*the third-rails
21:21<drac_boy>sim-a12 again another half-related topic .. can you name where they run commuter 3rd rail trains with special sideway-triggered trackside automatic brakes?
21:22<sim-al2>As in the trip-cock emergency valves or something else?
21:22<drac_boy>yep that one :)
21:24<sim-al2>Hmm, I guess they would need that for extra clearence, must be a nightmare to get mechanical stops to work with those 3rd rail shoes sticking out
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>[Franklin]: yes, there is a git mirror you can use for all your personal development needs
21:27<drac_boy>not sure what their timeline was but eventually these would be all gone (I still wonder if that means the classic ET167 etc wouldn't be able to run as-is? no clue tbh)
21:27<drac_boy>the newer trains don't use the old tripcock system as I recall
21:28<drac_boy>might be wrong from memory tho on that ^
21:30<drac_boy>heh actually geeze .. that reminds me of a rather strange yet real photo I found from one of these train .. hang on
21:33<Eddi|zuHause>i think in Berlin they refit new tracks with some version of ETCS, so the old trains can't use them. new trains support both the mechanical and the ETCS way of security braking
21:33<drac_boy>sim-a12 this is a good extreme example of "if its not causing me any danger then why should I care how weird this is?" sort of laid back mentality among passengers heh
21:33<drac_boy>even me I wouldn't even care if I was standing near the door and a pony suddenly walked in either :)
21:33<Eddi|zuHause>the museum vehicles will need refitting to ETCS at some point
21:34<drac_boy>eddi..ah thanks for explaining that, cheers
21:35<sim-al2>I like how the passengers barely look
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>they need some special exception permission for using the mechanical brakes
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>as it's not used on any other part of the rail network
21:35<drac_boy>I see
21:35<drac_boy>sim-a12 like I said "if its not something causing danger then why bother" mentality :)
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>this is about the S-Bahn, it works differently on the U-Bahn
21:36<drac_boy>but yeah .. crazy
21:36<sim-al2>Some of the Tokyo private railways used to allow merchants to use one of the cars for transporting their stuff, but those were either bales of stuff or a cart
21:36<sim-al2>Not, you know, animals
21:37<Eddi|zuHause>the pony might need a ticket
21:37<sim-al2>Extra fare: Hooved
21:38<drac_boy>sim-a12 you should see the few people that actually loaded their horse (both 1 and 2 of them) right into the back of their pickup (which could be anything even a 4-inline diesel single-cab Datsun Truck) like they didn't care for it at all
21:38<drac_boy>most people usually expect a trailer
21:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think in our local network there's a rule about animals need a ticket if they are not carried in a box
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>and if they are in a box, the size-of-carry-on rule decides whether it needs a ticket
21:40<drac_boy>interesting (eddi)
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>of course, 90% of animals carried in public transport are dogs...
21:50<drac_boy>I've seen the infrequent ferrets too (for OC Transpo in ottawa) personally
21:51<Flygon>Parrots here
21:54<drac_boy>anyway going off for now so have fun sim-a12? and maybe we'll find yet more new topics to keep talking about next time ok :P
21:54<Flygon>Night mang
21:55<Flygon>Ah! sim, I was suppose to talk to you about something
21:55<Flygon>But I forgot what
21:55*drac_boy throws an aussie pan at flygon before running off :P
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21:58<Eddi|zuHause>i just looked it up, and the exact wording is "dogs must be kept on a short leash, other animals must be kept in a suitible container", so a pony might not be completely legal
21:58<Flygon>Here, people've pushed the law before
21:59<Flygon>A guy here got on the news for literally dressing a goat up and paying for it's myki ticket to ride around the Tram network
21:59<Flygon>Yarra Trams didn't even bother booting him off
22:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm fairly sure you're not getting in a lot of trouble as long as the animal behaves itself, and is not significantly bigger than a large dog
22:02*Flygon nod
22:02<Flygon>I do note, DOGS aren't allowed on here unless they're guide Dogs
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>the rules aren't nearly that strict here.
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>although guide dogs generally travel for free
22:34<Mazur>Irrelevant to OTTD.
22:35*Mazur is merely begging for reactions.
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22:37<Mazur>Everyone gone to bed... *weep*
22:37<Flygon>Mazur: Needs more Shining Force
22:38*Mazur does not know what Shining Force means.
22:38<Flygon>You asked for reactions!
22:38<Mazur>Yes, I did, and I reacted to your reaction.
22:40<Mazur>What it actually might need, is a picture of Terry Pratchett overlaid on it, if it does not spoil the grid.
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