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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-22

---Logopened Sun Nov 22 00:00:44 2015
00:37<Flygon>Well...
00:37<Flygon>Think of it this way, sim
00:37<Flygon>The need to shunt has been SIGNIFICANTLY lowered as time has gone on
00:37<Flygon>And is only really used for freght
00:37<Flygon>freight*
00:38<Flygon>And it's simply easier and more convenient to use the same sort of locomotives for everything rather than having shunters sitting about
00:38<Flygon>And even then, we have a lot of perfectly functional shunters sitting about
00:38<Flygon>From a Victorian perspective, at least, you have all the 1950s and 60s shunters VR built
00:38<Flygon>And the Y-Classes
00:38<sim-al2>They aren't young though, and unlike the US there's been no major rebuilds for many of them
00:38<Flygon>And the T/P-Class locos are pretty decent shunters
00:38<Flygon>True
00:39<Flygon>Still, it does reflect the fact that it's simply easier for everyone to shunt using mainline locos
00:39<Flygon>I really must say though
00:39<Flygon>I am not entirely familiar with operations outside of Victoria
00:39<sim-al2>True, pure switchers here are pretty much gone, in favor of units that can at least try to do road jobs too
00:39<Flygon>We're kind of a galapagos of Australian rail operations
00:40<sim-al2>Dat QR narrow gauge though
00:40<sim-al2>* and WA
00:41<Flygon>WA's a bit of a mixed bunch
00:41<Flygon>The Pilbura (North-West of the state) uses SG lines
00:41<Flygon>And carry some incredible axle loads along with that
00:41<Flygon>The NG segment is just near where Perth is
00:42<Flygon>The regional that DOES exist going out of Perth is mostly just SG, and tied in with the line to Sydney
00:42<sim-al2>Pliabra is straight up NA heavy haul
00:42<Flygon>Queensland is it's own galapagos network though
00:42<Flygon>Yeah, exactly
00:42<Flygon>I am a bit surprised they did Diesel instead of 50kv electric
00:43<sim-al2>I suppose the lower inital cost was more important, and probably wise given the drop in ore prices recently
00:43<Flygon>Then again
00:43<Flygon>The tropical cyclones and the fact that they built for utterly absurd axle loadings might've simply made way op Diesels more economical
00:44<sim-al2>It's not like you can't ballast an electric locomotive, see the IORE
00:44<Flygon>Oh, no
00:44<sim-al2>Or the South African 50kv heavy haul
00:44<Flygon>It's not for ballasting
00:45<Flygon>It's simply that the wagons are that heavy and there's no harm in making a Diesel loco absurdly heavy too for sheer extra Tim Taylor power xP
00:45<Flygon>Also with 50kv, I was actually thinking of the Najavo line
00:45<sim-al2>Need that starting effort to move trains of that size, especially once the track gets a little dusty/wet
00:46<sim-al2>They add ballast to the diesels too
00:46<Flygon>Yeah
00:46<Flygon>I do note, Victoria had some interesting experiences with this
00:46<Flygon>When we built the 1500vDC line to Traralgon
00:46<Flygon>(Coal Briquette traffic)
00:46<sim-al2>Example: the Santa Fe bought Dash 9 locomotives that weighted 395,000 lbs, while I believe some BNSF coal units were up around 415,000 lbs
00:46<Flygon>We ordered the most powerful electric locomotives possible, that fit inside a 17t/axle limit
00:47<Flygon>This caused a lot of arguments between VR designers and English Electric (whom helped in designing and manufacturing)
00:47<Flygon>EE kept saying "The locomotives don't have enough weight! You'll never stop wheelspinning!"
00:47<Flygon>VR insisted they wanted precisely what they demanded
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00:48<Flygon>Unsurprisingly, the machines tended to wheelslip quite badly with heavier briquette loads... which VR fixed by simply adding a second L-class loco on
00:48<Flygon>Because apperantly the solution to having too much power is to add more power (and traction) xP
00:48<Flygon>They made excellent passenger locos, however
00:49<Flygon>And would actually substitute suburban services if the EMUs sometimes carked it
00:49<sim-al2>Adhesive weight, although I'm sure those trains kept up much better with double the power
00:49<Flygon>So, in that sense, they were so overpowered they could fill in our equivilant of a subway EMU xP
00:49<Flygon>But, yeah. They had very little adhesive weight for the intended traffic, but they worked extremely well otherwise
00:50<Flygon>Just a shame the Geelong electrification never got off the ground (VR ran out of money)
00:50<Flygon>They were the most powerful locomotives in the state until the G-Class came around the late 1970s
00:51<Flygon>And even then, by today's standards
00:51<Flygon>Despite being 60 years old
00:51<Flygon>They're incredibly powerful
00:51*Flygon scratches head
00:52<Flygon>I'm not sure what it was with VR and making incredible machines that couldn't go anywhere...
00:52<Flygon>I mean, you know about the H-Class, right?
00:52<sim-al2>Those did have a specific role in mind though
00:54<Flygon>Yeah
00:54<Flygon>Shame about WWII
00:54<Flygon>But even then... if they were still able to be around proper for the 1950s and standardized
00:54<Flygon>They would've been incredibly useful for traffic to Sydney
00:54<sim-al2>Oh different H class :)
00:55<Flygon>Yeah, I'm talking about the one that was the most powerful locomotive in Australia from 1937ish to 1995 xP
00:55<sim-al2>Although amusingly enough the H-class diesels were limited in routing too
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00:56<Flygon>Oooooooh, you mean the T-Class derivative?
00:57<Flygon>The one with the increased axle loads for shunting reasons?
00:57<sim-al2>Yeah, the steam one had a pretty good axle load too
00:59<Flygon>'pretty good'? O_o
00:59<Flygon>Mate, it could barely run on any of VR's lines! :D
01:00<sim-al2>I do like how the axle load limits haven't really increased that much
01:05<Flygon>Well...
01:05<Flygon>Unfortunately
01:05<Flygon>The reasons for this aren't good
01:06<Flygon>The track infrastructure here is abysmal
01:06<sim-al2>$$$ :)
01:06<Flygon>Road Lobby Brown Paper Bags
01:07<sim-al2>It's interesting that some of the more recent diesels had to skip AC traction for weight reasons, or suffer from having to limit fuel capacity
01:07<Flygon>Limit fuel capacity?...
01:07<Flygon>What sort of distances are you guys trying to do?
01:07<Flygon>Even our interurban DMUs can go for 3,000km on a single tank
01:08<Flygon>http://www.dccsound.com/Vlocity%20Manor.jpg These ones
01:08<sim-al2>No, that would be your private freight operators, see the TT class with three selectable fuel limits
01:08<sim-al2>As opposed to our mainline diesels with 19000 liter tanks
01:08<Flygon>Hmm...
01:09<Flygon>Alright
01:09<Flygon>Sorry, easy to forget that not everywhere had everything done by a single operator
01:09<Flygon>(VR tended to want every Diesel loco to be able to handle long haul pax. no problemo)
01:10<sim-al2>They do seem to have been able to, the P class is a cool idea if a bit limited
01:10<Flygon>Mm...
01:10<Flygon>The A/P-Class was an experiment, but, particulary with the A
01:10<Flygon>It was cheaper to just order additional N's instead and use the existing B's for freight and pax
01:11<Flygon>There's a photo of a B-Class going through Sunbury in VR livery around 1993
01:11<Flygon>Despite VR having being dissolved 14 years earlier
01:12<Flygon>Finding the phooto
01:12<Flygon>I have no idea where to find the photo
01:13<Flygon>http://vicsig.net/passenger/photos/19930200-b65-pass-sunbury-ig.jpg 1993
01:13<sim-al2>Always a very nice one, surprised they didn't all get the orange though
01:13<Flygon>And it's being used for urban runs...
01:13<Flygon>Nah, the B-Class never got painted V/Line orange
01:13<Flygon>Only the A-Class did
01:13<sim-al2>Not exactly the Spirit of Progress
01:14<Flygon>It's incredible how low VR / V/Line had fallen by the 90s...
01:14<Flygon>That's one loco, a luggage van, a first, and second class carriage (iirc)
01:14<sim-al2>http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/pics/b84ros.jpg
01:15<Flygon>For comparison, this same town now gets 6 carriage Comeng/Siemens sets frequently. A lot changed in 20 years.
01:15<Flygon>Oh, huh
01:15<Flygon>Okay, so, some Bs did get repainted O_o
01:15<Flygon>I stand corrected
01:15<Flygon>That would've been hell for the drivers
01:15<sim-al2>Found here (https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11329895-s0-0-asc+v+line+livery.htm), apparently only 3
01:16<Flygon>The reason the A's have the black hoods with matte paint to prevent glare
01:16<sim-al2>I've always wondered about the designers who choose gloss paint and no glare shields...
01:16<Flygon>Yeah
01:17<Flygon>http://vicsig.net/photo/10862 Seriously, these consists are STILL used for purely urban runs...
01:17<Flygon>Rail infrastructure here's just a mess
01:17<Flygon>The only difference is the B being an N or an A instead
01:17<sim-al2>The short hood of most modern diesels seems to be a non-slip surface or something ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/GE_C44-9W_BNSF_4617.jpg )
01:18<Flygon>Yeah, that's either matte paint or matte sheet
01:18<sim-al2>I think it's a sheet judging by the raised surface
01:18<Flygon>Most modern locos here don't even have a hood
01:19<Flygon>Hell, VR stopped wanting hoods by the 1970s
01:19<Flygon>http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/gdiesel/g512ros.jpg This and the New South Welsh equivilant apperantly got called "Flying Bricks"
01:19<Flygon>Fantastic at both Freight and Pax. xP
01:19<sim-al2>Ours really have them for the toilet space and the crash protection
01:20<Flygon>(also that exact photograph reminds me of Mad Max for some reason...)
01:20<Flygon>Heh... that's part of the reason the A's got phased out of long distance here
01:20<Flygon>They lack toilets
01:20<Flygon>The N's have onboard toilets
01:21<sim-al2>The earliest US diesels sometimes had a steam generator in the short hood, not sure that I would put it there...
01:21<Flygon>http://vicsig.net/photo/2323 Bloody hell, what a mishmash...
01:21<sim-al2>lol
01:21<Flygon>An A in Navy Blue livery, a B from when WCR still existed and owned the B, and an S in V/Line Orange for... some reason (???)
01:22<Flygon>All in the same era the VLocity DMUs were being tested 200km/h+...
01:22<sim-al2>Paint costs money
01:22<sim-al2>See the inventory of a US class one railroad, there's still a few units in paint of railroads that stopped existing in the mid 90's...
01:24<Flygon>Dayum
01:24<Flygon>Here, you DO get old locos intentionally painted in outdated liveries
01:24<Flygon>And then leased out
01:24<Flygon>Cue VR B-Classes ending up in VR livery in Brisbane
01:24<sim-al2>Well a few have gone and done that now; apparently people have positive (!?) memories of Penn Central
01:27<Flygon>xP
01:27<Flygon>I'm not sure if a few of the locos will be repainted in WCR in future
01:27<Flygon>These locos have gone through so many owners...
01:28<Flygon>Hell, and this isn't taking into account the geneology of some sets here
01:29<Flygon>I'm half-expecting in 20-30 years for VLocities to be painted in Xplorer/Endeavor and Hunter liveries
01:29<Flygon>Due to being either directly descendant or being brother/sister xP
01:29<sim-al2>Huh, I assumed the old paint schemes were part some of them being essentiallly museum machines
01:29<Flygon>Then again, this might happen in an official capacity anyway...
01:29<Flygon>Well, it's part museum
01:29<Flygon>Part cool
01:29<sim-al2>Especially the B's and S's still rolling around
01:29<Flygon>A few QR locos run on NG lines in Victoria
01:29<Flygon>Painted in VR liery
01:29<Flygon>livery*
01:30<Flygon>They never held that livery
01:30<sim-al2>There's NG in Vic?
01:30<Flygon>But it looks cool
01:30<Flygon>726mm
01:30<sim-al2>Dammmmmnnnn
01:30<Flygon>762mm, sorry
01:30<sim-al2>Not even 1067?
01:31<Flygon>Nah, we don't have that
01:31<Flygon>762mm railways were built by VR for lines determined to be too expensive for 1600mm
01:31<Flygon>Basically
01:31<Flygon>Curve radius.
01:31<Flygon>1067mm would've been too wide.
01:31<sim-al2>I suppose Queensland built 1067mm because of the hills on the coasts, but the rest of the state seems rather flat...
01:32<Flygon>And 600mm wasn't considered due to the lack of predicent for VR
01:32<Flygon>762mm is based directly on Indian Railways
01:32<Flygon>Queensland's an interesting point
01:32<Flygon>They build the lines where Brisbane were
01:32<sim-al2>600mm seems close to "minimum gauge"
01:32<Flygon>Which's on the Northern end of the Great Dividig Range
01:32<Flygon>Or - They built 1067mm initially because they built their capital city into a mountain
01:33<sim-al2>:D
01:33<Flygon>Despite the entire rest of the state being plains
01:33<Flygon>Queensland needs standardization... but nobody will pay for it.
01:33<Flygon>And it'd be an engineering... well
01:33<Flygon>A combination of engineering feat and nightmar
01:33<Flygon>e
01:34<Flygon>VR would be easy to SGize by comparison
01:34<Flygon>The biggest issue for Queensland is, is that their loading gauge is... er
01:34<sim-al2>Pint size?
01:34<Flygon>Let's say that Queensland loading gauge and British loading gauge are buttbuddies
01:34<sim-al2>Oh good
01:34<Flygon>New South Welsh loading gauge is huge by comparison, and sets the standard for the country
01:34<sim-al2>*cue image of interstate double stacks*
01:35<Flygon>Victoria's a tiny bit smaller, but easily worked around
01:35<Flygon>Issue with Interstate Double Decks is that you'd need to build them to the same gauge as Sydney's DD stock...
01:35<Flygon>And that makes building DMUs a nightmare
01:35<Flygon>But locomotives are well on their way out.
01:35<Flygon>And nobody wants to build a 25kv overhead
01:36<sim-al2>I mean the ones that run on the line to Perth, since apparently there's no bridges and they built enormous rolling stock for the runs\
01:37<sim-al2>https://youtu.be/Nw_O_MXhIcA?t=84
01:37<Flygon>ooh
01:37<Flygon>Yeah, that handles some pretty tall cargo
01:37<Flygon>You could certainly do it
01:38<sim-al2>I read somewhere that those locomotives spend 50%+ time at full power due to the winds
01:38<Flygon>The issue is...
01:38<sim-al2>As opposed to less than 25% for most railways worldwide
01:38<Flygon>Is there a market for that much pax capacity?
01:38<Flygon>Esp. given how easy it is to just make the trains longer
01:39<sim-al2>I was talking about freight, although tall passenger cars make for nice long distance
01:39<sim-al2>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIVfvtVGvHI
01:40<Flygon>OOooh, right
01:40<Flygon>Right right
01:40<Flygon>Sorry, was thinking about pax x.x
01:42<sim-al2>Somehow we have bilevel DMUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UTZCtpiskk
01:43<sim-al2>(take that Europe)
01:45<sim-al2>Bilevels are somewhat common for commuter operations too, depends on passenger loading and the length of stops desired though
01:55<Flygon>What's the acceleration and top speed like?
01:55<Flygon>(it'd be impossible to make a DD VLocity. The entire platform is designed around absurd acceleration based on Diesel-Hydralic transmisison)
01:56<sim-al2>Hmm, I have no idea. Top speed is probably 80 or 90 mph
01:57<Flygon>Hmm...
01:57<sim-al2>Not exactly a lot of floor space underneath, the company also happened to go bankrupt
01:57<Flygon>It's an acceptable top speed (VLos hit 100mph), but the acceleration would need to be at least 0.8m/s/s
01:57<Flygon>But... that's all irrelevant
01:57<Flygon>Because the loading gauge utterly breaks anything inside Melbourne or Sydney
01:58<sim-al2>Found a brochure that says twin 600hp engines (oh god the fuel burn)
01:58<Flygon>Twin per carriage?
01:58<sim-al2>Yes
01:58<Flygon>Jesus Christ
01:59<Flygon>That's nearly twice the horsepower than per VLo unit...
01:59<Flygon>That's utterly bonkers
01:59<Flygon>How the crap do you fit them?????
01:59<sim-al2>They were 18 feet high, there should be some room
01:59<sim-al2>This claims 0-55 mph in 49 seconds
01:59<Flygon>18 feet?
02:00<Flygon>Uhm
02:00<Flygon>They're 1.4 meters too tall
02:00<sim-al2>5.5m
02:00<sim-al2>Yeah, I know
02:00<Flygon>Sydney's EMUs barely scrape inside the loading gauge, and they're around 4.4m
02:00<Flygon>Melbourne would limit you to 4.2mish
02:00<Flygon>But, yeah
02:01<Flygon>I'm very very surprised USA lacks more DDs
02:01<Flygon>Though, I can think of one big reason stopping Sydney-style services
02:01<sim-al2>I'm suspicious of this brochure though, because it claims EMU-type performance
02:01<Flygon>Your platforms are, frankly. Too low.
02:01<sim-al2>???
02:01<Flygon>Sydney only works because you get THREE decks, not two
02:02<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Lakeshore_West_GO_Train_Westbound.jpg
02:02<Flygon>The passengers board what's effectively the second floor of the EMU, and from there goes to either the first (bottom) or third (top)
02:02<Flygon>This means passenger flow can go through quickly. Almost as easily as a standard Melbourne set.
02:02<Flygon>But the USA/Europe, with the near-ground level platforms
02:02<Flygon>Makes that solution impossible
02:02<sim-al2>http://us.bombardier.com/us/library/images/BT-PR-20100901_NJT_Multilevel-HR.jpg
02:02<sim-al2>We have high level you know
02:03<Flygon>Yes, to unboard from the Lakeshore train from the top floor
02:03<Flygon>You need to go down two sets of stairs
02:03<Flygon>New Jersey is an exemption to the rule I've seen in the USA
02:03<Flygon>Though, as a personal note
02:03<Flygon>I observe that their doors are about half as wide as they should be
02:04<sim-al2>It's a commuter operation, not a subway
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02:04<Flygon>I know what you're saying, but there's a very big cultural drift here
02:04<Flygon>EVERY single passenger platform for almost every railway company in Australia
02:04<Flygon>Is raised fairly high off the ground
02:04<Flygon>The only low platform service to come to mind are the Tramways
02:05<Flygon>Even on remote branchlines we built this way
02:05<Flygon>But USA and Europe didn't build this way to save money
02:05<Flygon>And time, too
02:05<Flygon>Faster construction
02:06<sim-al2>It also allows larger cars, which improved everything else
02:06<Flygon>Larger??...
02:06<Flygon>Howso?
02:07<Flygon>I would have thought that having passengers load from ground level would reduce the amount of space available, and cause problems trying to engineer more complex equipment
02:07<Flygon>Or - You'd have far less room underfloor inside each carriage/unit to stuff equipment
02:07<sim-al2>Cars aren't restricted by 19th century building standards, see Britain's problems
02:07<Flygon>We built the way we did BECAUSE the existing standards in the UK were outdated
02:07<Flygon>We built in the 1850s.
02:08<Flygon>The UK's stuuuuffed xD
02:09<sim-al2>The commuter operations here should be compared to something like V/Line's suburban ops, Sydney's electrics are very different from most thing running here
02:09<Flygon>uuuh....
02:10<Flygon>V/Line's suburban operations run to the exact same standards as Metro's here
02:10<Flygon>Geelong even gets trains every 6-12 minutes at peak hour
02:11<sim-al2>Ok, our government in it's infinite wisdom dumped all the post-war money into highways, leaving us permantly stuck with we can be scraped together
02:11<Flygon>Yeah
02:12<Flygon>I'm not saying you guys wouldn't build to a higher standard if you could
02:12<Flygon>Just that nobody's got money
02:12<Flygon>The exact same thing happened here, trust me
02:12<Flygon>We just got lucky because 1860s-1890s Victoria was practically the richest part of the entire British empire
02:12<Flygon>Then we crashed the entire British empire economically because of a housing speculation bubble.
02:13<Flygon>This might have convinced the British to let go of Australia without fighting
02:13<Flygon>xP
02:14<Flygon>Not saying that the same solution would have worked for the USA, mind :P
02:15<sim-al2>At this point low platforms are basically required out west anyway, as the cars are built for low level anyway
02:15<Flygon>Mm...
02:15<Flygon>It's systematic
02:16<Flygon>And a conversion programme would result in decades of isolates happening as lines are converted
02:16<Flygon>And probably end up like the state of SG in Victoria
02:16<sim-al2>Level boarding is much more important, and high platforms don't guarentee it anyway
02:16<Flygon>Level boarding?
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02:17<sim-al2>No steps
02:17<Flygon>Ahh
02:17<sim-al2>See page 9 here ( http://www.apta.com/mc/rail/previous/2012/presentations/Presentations/Nelson-D-Rebalancing-Commuter-Rail-Level-Boarding.pdf )
02:18<Flygon>Gaps here are a pretty big problem for some stations
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02:19<sim-al2>Page 27 too
02:25<Flygon>Gauntlet tracks seems a bit odd...
02:25<Flygon>Most freight stuff is same width as pax here
02:26<sim-al2>Most passenger cars are narrow for full nation wide gauge compliance
02:26<sim-al2>Some areas limit the movement of the widest freight cars
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02:27<Flygon>You... what
02:27<Flygon>You have a MAXIMUM width legally allowable for any passenger car??
02:28<sim-al2>Um no, it's AAR Plate C loading gauge that is almost universal
02:28<sim-al2>There are some Plate F cars running around that are wider
02:28<Flygon>Oh O_o
02:29<Flygon>Here, whatever just runs... er
02:29<Flygon>Wherever it can fit
02:29<sim-al2>That's what loading gauge means
02:29<Flygon>Yeah
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03:51<@Alberth>/me considers renaming the channel to #train-discussions :)
03:55<__ln___>go ahead
03:56<Flygon>OpenTTD is pretty much the most 'powerful' train sim on the market that isn't expensive or taxing
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04:11<@peter1138>nor is it a train sim, but hey
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04:11<andythenorth>moin
04:12<Flygon>peter1138: It's secondary function can be powerful!
04:12<@Alberth>train sim would involve physics of friction of the wheels, and moving masses of the engine and wagons and its cargo, imho
04:13<@Alberth>moin andy
04:13<@Alberth>not to mention time schedules to arrive at stations for getting all the pax home in time
04:14<Flygon>Alberth: Fine. Train NETWORK sim. xP
04:15<Flygon>It can't be imposssssssible to capture some elements listed tho xP
04:15<Flygon>But nobody seems to like my "Perhaps we should consider the fact that Diesel-Hydralic DMUs don't have a 'standard' acceleration curve" idea xP
04:16<@Alberth>tycoon don't handle such small details :)
04:16<Flygon>It isn't possible for a NewGRF to handle this?
04:16<andythenorth>just dibble the TE a bit :P
04:18<andythenorth>for a while, I wanted a way to set the ratio of the planetary gears in logging truck axles in HEQS
04:18<andythenorth>now I have adjusted my concerns, to things that a worth caring about :P
04:18<@Alberth>I have no idea where the NewGRF limits are, imho they are too far anyway :p
04:18<andythenorth>like ‘how do I get seafood into this economy’ :P
04:18<@Alberth>make a sea-based economy? :)
04:19<andythenorth>crabs
04:19<andythenorth>lobsters
04:19<andythenorth>tuna
04:19<@Alberth>oysters
04:20<@Alberth>plastic :p
04:20<andythenorth>deliver bait, get fish
04:20<Flygon>bogans on jetskis
04:20<andythenorth>deliver growth hormone, get farmed salmon
04:21<@Alberth>"fish supplies"
04:21<andythenorth>fishing vessel construction yard -> requires nets, steel, diesel
04:22<@Alberth>fish auction
04:23<Flygon>fish action
04:32<@peter1138>http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Commodities < only cargo types you ned
04:32<@peter1138>+e
04:34<andythenorth>looks good to me
04:47<andythenorth>I need more input / output cargos per industry :P
04:48<andythenorth>ha ha, I could muck about with tile acceptance, but that is ugly
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04:58<funkypudi>any admin moderator helper here to help?
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05:07<andythenorth>so I add both ‘tyres’ cargo and ‘vehicle parts’ cargo
05:08<andythenorth>“but andythenorth tyres ARE vehicle parts, no?"
05:08<andythenorth>:P
05:08<andythenorth>the chains are fricking weird otherwise
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06:04<Wolf01>o/
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06:25<@Alberth>moin
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06:39<TrueBrain>hi Alberth! Don't know if frosch already told you, but I install eints for OpenTTD. Looks really good, you guys did a very nice job on that. Even more so on documentation etc :D
06:40<TrueBrain>The only issue is that import takes several minutes .. frosch indicated that should be seconds :P
06:40<TrueBrain>It also runs very well on PyPy3 btw ;) (and a lot faster, ofc :D)
06:40<@Alberth>hi TB
06:40<@Alberth>good to hear
06:41<@Alberth>pypy3 is a jit compiler, I take it?
06:41<TrueBrain>yes :D
06:42<@Alberth>import is just startup, or is it update of strings after a commit?
06:42<TrueBrain>the latter seems fine
06:43<TrueBrain>just the import (at startup & commit) takes ~6 minutes
06:43<@Alberth>and as for documentation, sorry, I document everything :p
06:43<TrueBrain>not a real issue, tbh, WT3 can be slower if all languages are touched :D
06:43<TrueBrain>hehe; no clue why you are sorry :P
06:43<@Alberth>:D
06:43<TrueBrain>but we do have to pimp the script doing the updating, to only update the languages that are changed, basically ;)
06:45<@Alberth>ah right, smarter updating would be a nice first step :)
06:48<TrueBrain>it still leaves the question for me, why on frosch his VM it was seconds, and for me it is minutes .. so something is a bit wonky
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06:48<TrueBrain>but I had a Q for you: when you create a project that already exists, can I get an error code from the script entry point? Is that easily possible?
06:48<TrueBrain>now it is just silently ignored :)
06:48<TrueBrain>hmm ... or is there an entry to check if a project already exists .. hmm .. I didnt check that
06:48<@Alberth>no idea
06:48<@Alberth>but euhm, "create project"? there is only one project, no?
06:48<TrueBrain>yup
06:48<TrueBrain>basically, I am putting all of openttd.org configuration in Ansible
06:48<TrueBrain>including deployment of eints
06:48<TrueBrain>so I am trying to find a clean way to know if eints is already installed yes/no :)
06:51<@Alberth>make an deb, install, ask apt-cache or so? :p
06:51<TrueBrain>hehe; that would work too :D
06:51<TrueBrain>owh well, I will work something out :)
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06:51<TrueBrain>anyway, still a bit of work to do before we can use it, but I am really happy it works as clean as it does :)
06:52<@Alberth>good to hear, and thanks for the update
06:52<@Alberth>if you want something done, let me know
06:53<TrueBrain>the LDAP stuff needs a bit of fixing up, but I think that was frosch's work, not?
06:53<@Alberth>yep, completely
06:53<TrueBrain>and I have some minor things ... like removing the "new project" button; but that are minor details :)
06:54<@Alberth>quite :)
06:55<TrueBrain>now I need someone to come up with a replacement for BaNaNaS :D
06:55<TrueBrain>hehe
06:56<@Alberth>we'd need a design first
06:56<@Alberth>the actual coding is perhaps not that difficult, I think
06:57<TrueBrain>yeah; indeed :)
06:58<Wolf01>gah, windows updates needs reboot
06:58<Wolf01>bbl
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06:58<@Alberth>good luck
06:58<@Alberth>hmm, not fast enough :(
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07:18<@Alberth>wb to the updated world
07:19<Wolf01>eh, the update failed to install :|
07:19<Wolf01>btw, lunch time
07:19<@Alberth>:( for update, \o/ for lunch
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08:54<mykoserocin>hello
08:54<mykoserocin>reading this: https://wiki.openttd.org/Network_Protocol#Endian
08:55<mykoserocin>"The network protocol is 100% endian safe. We made that possible by creating our own endian, sort to speak. We do not send packets, but we send bytes over the network. For example, when we want to send a int64, we send first byte 1, then byte 2, and so on. So the byte order is ALWAYS 1 2 3 4."
08:55<mykoserocin>isn't this the same as little-endian?
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09:01<@Alberth>no idea what "byte 1" means here
09:02<@Alberth>the point is however that the same order is used both at big-endian and little-endian machines, so they can talk to each other
09:03<__ln___>wtf, who wrote that statement in the wiki?
09:04<@Rubidium>in that case byte 1 is bits 0..7, i.e. GB(..., 0, 8), byte 2 is bits 8..15, i.e. GB(..., 8, 8) etc.
09:04<__ln___>it is basically saying "the protocol is 100% endian safe because we ignore the existence of endianness"
09:05<mykoserocin>https://github.com/lucaspiller/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/network/core/packet.h#L36
09:05<mykoserocin> * - all > 1 byte integral values are written in little endian,
09:05<mykoserocin> * unless specified otherwise.
09:08<__ln___>TrueBrain: why would the 2004 revision of you write something like that: https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Network_Protocol&diff=1038&oldid=1037
09:09<@Alberth>what are you aiming to do?
09:11<mykoserocin>me? just studying the protocol.
09:11<__ln___>i'm aiming to go out for a walk.
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09:18<@Alberth>ok, maybe you wanted to connect things through the protocol, but there are better ways to do that
09:19<mykoserocin>Alberth: what do you mean?
09:20<@Alberth>there is an admin port for monitoring games at the server
09:20<@Alberth>which works way better than trying to decode the game protocol itself
09:22<TrueBrain>__ln__: because clearly the me of 2004 never heard of network byte order
09:22<TrueBrain>it seems we reinvented a very existing wheel ;)
09:23<TrueBrain>(well, I hope it is only described in the wiki as if it is something new; I hope the code uses exisitng OS wrappers for it :P)
09:30<@Rubidium>yes, the wrappers are very open source ;)
09:33<@Alberth>:)
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09:36<drac_boy>hi
09:36*drac_boy wonders if flygon got the empty bags from me :)
09:44<drac_boy>hmm hey sim-a12 I think we're missing some usa rail flags :P
09:44<drac_boy>heh
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13:37<sim-al2>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7wcimMOjzg
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27454 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-11-22 19:45:10 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 4 changes by telk5093
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14:12<@Rubidium>sim-al2: do trains really need to go that slow on the bridge?
14:16<sim-al2>I think it's because those units are still in testing, and that bridge was used for delivery to the line
14:16<@Rubidium>there is a sign saying 10, which might mean 10 mph
14:16<@Rubidium>(although here a sign with 10 means 100 km/h)
14:17<sim-al2>10mph, probably due to the age of the bridge; it's really just a freight route
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14:19<sim-al2>Looking at something else, they plan on replacing it with a drawbridge
14:24<sim-al2>Oh wait, this bridge is still there and seems to not be on the line. Another swing bridge was replaced
14:31<andythenorth>is cat
14:32<andythenorth>so am I smoking crack if I split ‘vehicle parts’ and ‘tyres'
14:32<andythenorth>?
14:34<@Alberth>if it makes sense from the industry chain pov, I'd say just do it
14:35<@Alberth>if people complain, tell them to ignore tyres :)
14:35<andythenorth>I want three inputs to the vehicle factory
14:35<andythenorth>I tried manufacturing supplies, but that’s weird, because it’s mostly paper, boxes, glasses, tins etc
14:36<andythenorth>I could use chemicals, quite plausibly
14:36<andythenorth>but nearly everything accepts chemicals :P
14:45<@Alberth>you could make it 'doors' or 'engines' or so
14:45<andythenorth>I could
14:45<andythenorth>I have dug around, I think chemicals is fine as third cargo
14:45<@Alberth>but imho tyres is fine too
14:45<andythenorth>players don’t like it, they can play a different thing
14:46<andythenorth>it’s a weird industry, vehicles. The chain is longer than most FIRS chains
14:46<@Alberth>\o/
14:47<andythenorth>this Arctic economy will be quite different to others. There are 2 or 3 very short chains (farm -> food -> town etc). And one very long chain.
14:47*andythenorth needs a GS to test it with :D
14:48<@Alberth>haha :)
14:48<andythenorth>hmm
14:48<andythenorth>rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
14:49<andythenorth>rubber -> tyre plant (probably quite easy to draw)
14:49<@Alberth>I remember someone saying BB was done :p
14:49<@Alberth>no plastic wheels? :)
14:49<andythenorth>tyre plant can be added
14:49<andythenorth>BB is ‘done’, except the bugs :P
14:50<@Alberth>:D
14:51<andythenorth>ho nordic tyre plant http://www.nordiccartyres.com/media/wysiwyg/MIsc-Photos/Nokian_Tyres_factory_resized.jpg
14:52<sim-al2>Or like this:
14:52<sim-al2>[13:48] <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
14:52<sim-al2>[13:48] <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
14:52<sim-al2>https://www.cardcow.com/images/set353/card00620_fr.jpg
14:52<sim-al2>Wow sorry
14:53<andythenorth>also that one
14:53<andythenorth>‘tyre plant’ or ‘tyre factory’ ?
14:53<@Alberth>large buildings for such small tyres :)
14:54<sim-al2>It's a complicated product though
14:54<andythenorth>the world’s biggest tyre maker is in Denmark
14:54<andythenorth>it makes very small tyres...
14:55<@Rubidium>you mean the one making the largest amount, right?
14:55<@Rubidium>not the one making the biggest tyres, or that one as well?
14:55<andythenorth>highest volume
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14:59<andythenorth>quak
15:00<andythenorth>http://cache.lego.com/r/www/r/aboutus/-/media/about%20us/news%20room/2012/06_june/550_guiness%20world%20record.jpg?l.r2=1413637842
15:00<frosch123>hoi
15:01<@Alberth>moin
15:01<Wolf01>o/
15:06<andythenorth>ha, an economy with no manufacturing supplies :)
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15:06<andythenorth>but it’s primarily a manufacturing economy
15:07<drac_boy>hi
15:07*andythenorth is pleased by this
15:07<drac_boy>whats the 'this'? heh :)
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15:13<andythenorth>hmm
15:14<andythenorth>this economy has Fishing Harbour. Fishing Harbour needs manufacturing supplies (MNSP). No MNSP in this economy.
15:14<andythenorth>1) change Fishing Harbour only in this economy
15:14<andythenorth>2) change it for all economies
15:14<andythenorth>3) have a different destination for Fish cargo?
15:15<@Alberth>not 2?
15:16<@Alberth>ie it would break many economies, wouldn't it?
15:16<andythenorth>not really break
15:16<andythenorth>just changes the behaviour of that industry
15:16<andythenorth>currently both cargos are needed for max output
15:16<andythenorth>I never bother delivering MNSP to fishing harbours anyway :P
15:17<@Alberth>but I'd guess you balanced MN use
15:17<drac_boy>andy oh well I would only do #1 for that specific economy parameter if it was me
15:17<andythenorth>I could swap Fishing Grounds -> Fish -> Fishing Harbour -> Food
15:17<@Alberth>send fish to the workers of the tyre factory? :)
15:17<andythenorth>to Fish Farm -> Food
15:18<andythenorth>fish is in every economy, it gets old :P
15:18<drac_boy>not to someone who needs a supply of food without large land impact :)
15:18<drac_boy>heh
15:18<@Alberth>yep, a change of the chain would be useful
15:18<andythenorth>can’t have Norway without fish, right?
15:18<andythenorth>I could just drop it :P
15:19<drac_boy>andy...or most arctic maps in fact... beside its easier to find fish ground than a rare flat land for farm fields
15:19<drac_boy>just my own comment anyhow
15:19<@Alberth>fish farms are often on water too :)
15:20<andythenorth>that’s my thought
15:20<andythenorth>and not hard to draw
15:26*drac_boy still need to draw a bit more since just a bit before last weekend :-s
15:26<andythenorth>ha ha, this economy has 23 industries, and 8 of them require chemicals
15:27<andythenorth>distorted much? o_O
15:27<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ inverse silicon valley? o_O
15:28<andythenorth>“Your goal is to build 10 industries consuming chemicals”
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15:32<drac_boy>guess that would depend what kind of industries these chemicals are going to. if its eg the paperwork that probably makes sense for it to optionally want a small amount
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15:33<@Alberth>gn
15:33<andythenorth>bye Alberth
15:33<drac_boy>bye alberth
15:33<andythenorth>maybe it’s printer ink
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15:35*drac_boy still can't quite get the hang of drawing bigger buildings anyhow :-s (at least not all industries have to be drawn in big size so..no comment)
15:35<andythenorth>draw small buildings, and use lots of them
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15:40<drac_boy>:p
15:41<andythenorth>drac_boy: that’s how FIRS does it, mostly http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#nitrate_mine
15:41<drac_boy>well for 256x256 map that probably works a bit better too anyway
15:42<drac_boy>ah I see what you really meant now
15:43<andythenorth>there are some big 2x2 tile sprites
15:43<andythenorth>but mostly 1x1 now
15:51<drac_boy>at least (for me anyhow) vertical cylinders seem easier to draw once and shade a few times versus trying to draw a tanker vehicle/wagon every angle .. oh well thats pixels for you after all
15:51<andythenorth>drawing industry is way more fun than drawing vehicles
15:52<andythenorth>only one angle, and the shapes are all very easy
15:52*andythenorth could draw industries all day long
15:52<drac_boy>only thing of course is you need vehicles to actually use the industry with (unless you want to go with something like the pipelines.grf :P
15:52<andythenorth>this is the problem
15:52<andythenorth>also ships, are the worst
15:52<andythenorth>and there zero good ship sets
15:52<andythenorth>* are
15:53<drac_boy>if you're interested in only buildings alone you always could modify your tools to draw the buildings for simcity instead :)
15:53<drac_boy>I still dabble in the Constructor Kit for simcity2000 once in a while just for fun
15:55<drac_boy>online screenshot for anyone else here who might be wondering exactly what it is http://www.myabandonware.com/media/screenshots/s/simcity-2000-urban-renewal-kit-2uz/simcity-2000-urban-renewal-kit_3.gif
15:57<drac_boy>can't recall if any other construction-genre games have user moddable buildings too .. never really did look that much myself (due to having simcity already anyway)
15:58<drac_boy>re ships..humm well...I do like newships.grf (save for sometimes introduction dates being odd) but otherwise yeah I don't think theres really been that much of any improvements past that
15:58<andythenorth>drawing ships is zero fun
15:58<drac_boy>I usually only run a few small passenger ferries aside to the occassional light/medium sized oilrig tankers for most part
15:59<drac_boy>anything else such as a far-reach coal mine I rather run one or two russia planes in daily service :)
16:01<mykoserocin>what is the purpose of the 8-byte arbitrary data in the PACKET_CLIENT_CHAT message?
16:02<mykoserocin>it also gets sent to all the connected clients even if it's not needed
16:02<drac_boy>ip-like field perhaps? (just like an internet packet)
16:02<mykoserocin>drac_boy: care to elaborate?
16:02<drac_boy>I dunno tbh
16:02*drac_boy points to an actual coder somewhere else in the user list instead >>>
16:08<mykoserocin>here's an example packet:
16:08<mykoserocin>0000 16 00 1c 03 02 02 00 00 00 74 65 73 74 00 fe ed .........test...
16:08<mykoserocin>0010 fa ce de ad be ef ......
16:09<@Rubidium>what does the documentation say?
16:09<mykoserocin>it says "arbitrary data"
16:09<mykoserocin>https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Network/TCP
16:09<mykoserocin>but the purpose of that data is unclear
16:11<@Rubidium>that blackbook is rubbish
16:11<@Rubidium>someone once thought it be a good idea to copy the source code comments to wiki
16:11<mykoserocin>well, i assume it might be used for money transfer messages, but why does server replicates it in ordinary chat messages...
16:12<@Rubidium>in any case, there are many chat-type messages. In this case "chat-type" means using the chat window to put some message
16:13<@Rubidium>so you send the type and based on the type it processes/formats the data differently
16:13<mykoserocin>also here: https://wiki.openttd.org/Network_Protocol#The_protocol PACKET_CLIENT_CHAT does not document this arbitrary data at all...
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16:14<mykoserocin>Rubidium: "chat-type" — NetworkAction you mean?
16:15<@Rubidium>yes, but since you are giving links to obsolete documents saying NetworkAction type does not give any clue to you what it is
16:15<Taede>the wiki also lists 3 unint8's while the black book lists uint8, uint16 and uint32
16:15<mykoserocin>are there any non-obsolete documents except source code?
16:16<andythenorth>unlikely :D
16:16<@Rubidium>anyhow, when you send money a "chat" message with GIVE_MONEY type is sent with the name of the company and the amount. Depending on whether "you" were the one sending the money or receiving the money, a different message is shown
16:17<@Rubidium>but what basically happens in any case is passing the client name, the "arbitrary" text and "arbitrary" number onto the string formating stack, and then format a string depending on the networkaction (+ some local knowledge)
16:19<@Rubidium>http://docs.openttd.org/ has an as up-to-date (well, with a lag of up to 24 hours and a few minutes) documentation as the source code
16:19<@Rubidium>although you need to know where to look
16:20<drac_boy>you mean "24 hours give or take"? don't mind me :P
16:20<mykoserocin>Rubidium: i think i've found it: SetDParam(2, data);
16:21<mykoserocin>so this has to do with some home-made string scanner?
16:21<@Rubidium>drac_boy: not really, because "give or take" implies it could be less, but the maximum won't be less than 24 hours
16:21<mykoserocin>i wonder why not use snprintf or something similar?
16:21<mykoserocin>colors?
16:22<@Rubidium>because snprintf can't be extended
16:23<@Rubidium>e.g. we can't add custom formatting for currencies
16:23<@Rubidium>anyhow, it's more a gettext-ish thing
16:24<mykoserocin>i see, but is this possible to use va_list (variardic function)?
16:24<@Rubidium>in theory one could make that, but in practice it won't be really helpful
16:25<mykoserocin>why?
16:26<@Rubidium>because now we can have ifs/cases that set the individual paramters, and with va_list you'd need to either make variables for everything *or* put all the logic into a single line
16:26<mykoserocin>that'd increase readability a lot
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16:27<@Rubidium>how would the following look with variadic functions? http://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/network/network.cpp;h=0bbdd0d06cf8216109ee80956f2e78daac5221b1;hb=HEAD#l362
16:32*andythenorth shudders at variadic functions
16:32<andythenorth>for a while, there was a variadic version of FIRS
16:32<@Rubidium>https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Special_strings#Placeholders <- just to give you an idea of the different types of "formatters" OpenTTD's language file contains, which makes its string system vastly more useful than what can be achieved with gettext or snprintf
16:34<@Rubidium>although gettext has support for plural, it doesn't seem to have sprouted support for genders yet whereas OpenTTD handles them for about a decade now
16:35<andythenorth>unrelated to openttd, is there anything better than gettext out there?
16:35<andythenorth>it’s considered limiting for translating python web apps :P
16:35<andythenorth>but is the only known game in town
16:36<@Rubidium>newgrf?
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16:36<@Rubidium>it has a python web app for translating it ;)
16:36<andythenorth>that one cheats :P
16:36<andythenorth>it uses openttd style string handling :P
16:37<mykoserocin>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/lang/english.txt;h=0bd430bad0837ecf0d0e6bf118b92ff24b621201;hb=HEAD#l2171
16:37<mykoserocin>wow, that's looks ugly :D
16:37<andythenorth>the python i18n frameworks don’t _appear_ to support a default lang, so instead of falling back to english or so, you serve blank strings to end users if the string is missing :P
16:37<mykoserocin>as far as I understand, the parser will use different string, depending on it's stack size?
16:37<andythenorth>which breaks functionality horribly, e.g. <a href=“blah”></a> :P
16:39<@Rubidium>mykoserocin: true, it is ugly... however, imagine a language where the amount of reasons influences the paused verb
16:40<@Rubidium>and the only reason there are duplicates is because there are many reasons why the game could be paused that are compounded and only showing one made some users upset
16:40<@Rubidium>in this case, the parser will be given a different string (the parser itself doesn't look to stack size)
16:41<andythenorth>bye
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16:43<@Rubidium>anyhow... OpenTTD's string system is vastly better suited than printf and gettext for languages that do not conform to the "base languages'" order
16:43<mykoserocin>Rubidium: wouldn't gettext help in that case (amount of reasons influence the verb)?
16:43<mykoserocin>but i see, you were talking about genders
16:43<mykoserocin>are there any examples in the source code i can look for?
16:44<@Rubidium>mykoserocin: yes, but you can't then write some regular expression-ish thing to have 1 to 4 "outputs" between brackets
16:44<@Rubidium>so either you have to sprintf them after eachother, which might break horribly in some languages that use a different word order
16:44<@Rubidium>or you need to do something else weirds
16:45<mykoserocin>printf("Game paused (%s%s%s)
16:45<mykoserocin>whoops
16:46<mykoserocin>printf("Game paused (%s%s)\n", (thing1 ? "thing1, " : ""), (thing2 ? "thing2, " : ""));
16:46<mykoserocin>yeah, that won't work :)
16:46<mykoserocin>because of commas
16:46<mykoserocin>*would not work
16:49<mykoserocin>Rubidium: one could add {STRING_ALL} specifier to the string scanner, so it'd pop all the values and print them comma delimited
16:50<mykoserocin>but that'd clearly violate the string format rule
16:50<@Rubidium>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/lang/german.txt#l3515 <- genders
16:50<@Rubidium>so from 3518 a number of types of vehicles are defined, with the gender in front of it
16:51<+glx>french also uses genders (including a fake one for some phrase constructions)
16:51<@Rubidium>when the string is constructed, the {G ...} stuff of e.g. line 3517 looks at the "included" strings to get the gender and then choose which of the genders to use
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16:55<@Rubidium>and since you can stack string "inclusion", you can also say that you want the second substring of the first included string... but that's rarely ever used
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16:58<drac_boy>hmm looks like I need to say byebye V100 http://up.picr.de/22424403ni.jpg
16:58<mykoserocin>thanks for the explanation, I wasn't aware of such nuances with some of the languages :)
16:59<@Rubidium>oh, this is the simple stuff
16:59<+glx>yeah add the cases on top of that ;)
16:59<@Rubidium>things start to get interesting with right-to-left languages such a Hebrew
17:00<@Rubidium>since their text goes from right-to-left, but not for numbers
17:00<drac_boy>I think it wasn't only hebrew that does that
17:00<+glx>arabic too
17:00<drac_boy>right, I knew there was a common second one but just couldn't recall who glx
17:00<drac_boy>thanks
17:01<@Rubidium>the next step is Arabic, which is even more fun... because multiple characters influence eachother, so writing 3 characters in "code" (or on your keyboard) can result in one character on the screen
17:01<+glx>and the fun is even better when you mix these language with untranslated stuff like vehicle names ;)
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17:02<Flygon>Oh man, I submitted art to websites with Arabic Title
17:02<+glx>ie LTR inside RTL
17:02<Flygon>I broke, like
17:02<Flygon>A lot of them
17:02<Flygon>Esp. since I also had the title in English
17:02<drac_boy>oh I kinda know what you mean..on slider phone keyboards I sometimes find it funny when typing a different third letter can cause the second letter to get different symbols
17:02<Flygon>And at least one refused to even accept the title as anything but ASCII
17:03<drac_boy>so flygon did you fill up any shopping bags yesterday or what :P
17:03*Flygon gives drac_boy some paper bags to play with
17:04<@Rubidium>oh... and then there are things that we don't support, like proper "thousand" grouping for some locales
17:05<@Rubidium>like... welcome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_numbering_system
17:05<drac_boy>flygon I take it none? :)
17:05<Flygon>Everything got put into the cupboard? xP
17:07<mykoserocin>Rubidium: how about using LC_MONETARY for this one?
17:08<mykoserocin>here's a random example: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10042485/how-to-display-currency-in-indian-numbering-format-in-php
17:09<mykoserocin>i'm not sure though if there's any alternative function to PHP's money_format()
17:10<@Rubidium>a function that doesn't work on Windows doesn't sound good enough for OpenTTD
17:10<mykoserocin>it seems that ICU can handle this
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17:10<+glx>ICU is the devil ;)
17:10<mykoserocin>does OpenTTD gets compiled with ICU on Windows?
17:10*Rubidium wonders how SI prefixes mess up the indian system
17:11<+glx>yes, and building ICU on windows is not fun
17:11<@Rubidium>10,00,000 -> 10,00 k or 1,000 k?
17:11<mykoserocin>glx: it is, but OpenTTD already uses it
17:12<mykoserocin>judging by ./configure --help
17:15<@Rubidium>IMO missing that numbering format isn't a big problem though, and I dislike locales anyway because they never suit my needs
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17:16<@Rubidium>I want English, but times with a 24 hour clock, metric numbers, comma as decimal separator and dots as thousand separator. Which locale do I need?
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17:17<+glx>custom ;)
17:18<mykoserocin>^
17:18<drac_boy>anyway flygon you going sleep soon?
17:18*Rubidium is
17:19<Flygon>It's 9:19AM
17:20<mykoserocin>Rubidium: you can even configure wheter it's A4 or Letter by default with LC_PAPER :)
17:20<drac_boy>ah heh ok well flygon I'm going off for a bit re supper and more but if you're around later we can have a bit of random chat again ok? :)
17:20<@Rubidium>Flygon: lucky bastard... you already have had almost two fifths of Monday
17:20<slaca>there is a big feature in openttd in every year (cargodist, rivers, ..) I would like to know what will be the biggest feature in 1.6.0?
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17:21<Flygon>drac_boy: A'ight
17:21<Flygon>Rubidium: I USUALLY work Mondays.
17:22<Flygon>Kinda wish I was
17:22<Flygon>I need the $$$
17:24<@Rubidium>slaca: I don't think there will be something big in 1.6.0 (or 1.6.0 isn't release in early Q2 of 2016)
17:25<slaca>thanks, i thought it will be released in 1. of april
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18:11<Eearslya>Is Bananas something that was written exclusively for OTTD?
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18:58<drac_boy>hi :)
18:59*drac_boy wonders if flygon want to blather about slow little aussie locomotives
19:04<Flygon>Huh?
19:04<Flygon>They're not little
19:05<drac_boy>I was partially just joking .. still think of that gauge-related misshap you mentioned some time ago too
19:08<drac_boy>either way flygon another kind of topic .. would you have liked to see this 3800hp thing http://www.trainweb.org/arkansastrains/railroad/upsd60/up6054/P0001823.JPG basically being neglected to running over light industrial rails with a single boxcar at just 25kph?
19:08<Flygon>Happens all the time here xP
19:10<drac_boy>heh sometimes crews weren't always happy with it (different visibility or the problem with making the traction motor not go too fast between notch 0 and 1) but many of the times it happened because there was only one locomotive normally assigned and one day its out of order at the shed so they just have to grab something random nearby
19:10<drac_boy>that example I recalled of above was actually normally assigned to an old SW1200 so heh no comment
19:12<Flygon>The notch thing...
19:12<Flygon>When the XPT was being built and tested here
19:12<Flygon>It originally had around 16ish notches
19:13<Flygon>NSWGR's engineers intentionally lowered that to 6 or so, because they were genuinely afraid that the XPT locos would be used for freight purposes otherwise
19:13<drac_boy>let me guess..it soon didn't have 16?
19:13<drac_boy>6? umm thats asking for wheelslip control problem with less fine controls 0_o
19:13<Flygon>Dunno about the UK, but it would've been ridiculous to see what's essentially a Class 43 running around towing Iron Ore
19:13<Flygon>They wanted less notches to make freight less attractive
19:15<drac_boy>the funny thing is the small hardcover Deltic book I got (yep..that uk tri-opposited pistons thing) was that they had to add a few more intermediate contacts to the throttle as many less experienced drivers were having problem with frequent wheelslips in wet tunnels and more
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19:18<drac_boy>even then the Deltic generally only got express assignments .. freight was almost nonexisting (aside to in-kind assistances)
19:18<drac_boy>afaik .. I could be wrong if someone knew some photos that said otherwise
19:19<drac_boy>flygon btw who the hell want to put a class 43 on freight especially with no flagman/shunter platform and very questionable rear visibility? :P
19:21<Flygon>I'm running entirely off memory here myself
19:21<Flygon>drac_boy: Well, based on previous example set by VR and NSWGR (and no doubt the other state railways)
19:21<Flygon>NSWGR
19:21<Flygon>It was very common for spare pax. locos to be used for freight
19:21<Flygon>Either in assisting or sole hauling
19:21<drac_boy>heh I see ... well this one does make sense considering theres no shunting needed so lack of crew and not needing to look back didn't matter http://www.railpage.org.au/pix/XPT/X2000_Tahmoor.jpg
19:22<Flygon>Cue R-Class Steam Locos used by VR to haul heavy freight... despite being designed purely as an express passenger loco
19:22<Flygon>Shame the X2000 programe didn't take off
19:22<drac_boy>not sure why but that looks like a top-n-tail (or push-pull whatever term it is) set
19:22<Flygon>They were trialling the set to see how it'd go
19:22<Flygon>It was a success
19:22<drac_boy>theres something else on the rear
19:22<Flygon>It's a tilt train attached to an XPT
19:22<Flygon>There's two XPT locos hauling an EMU
19:23<Flygon>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_2000
19:23<drac_boy>ahhh .. weird (unless they needed it to run bidirectional)
19:23<drac_boy>even when the amtrak ICE was tested here .. the diesels were only at one end but mm different geography tho I guess
19:24<Flygon>A single XPT wouldn't have enough power to hit 160
19:24<drac_boy>hmm 160kph .. what engine did the xpt come built with or was it same as the 43's?
19:25<Flygon>Up til the 90s, they shared the same engines
19:25<Flygon>I think they got renewed with the same engine too
19:25<Flygon>Not entirely sure
19:25<Flygon>I am not hugely savvy on NSW
19:25<Flygon>And Pikka must be at work
19:25<Flygon>Or whoever the other New South Welsh here were
19:26<drac_boy>flygon ah..probably put in something different because last I recall the 43 aka hst had like 2*2000hp but was made for 200kph maximum service speed with quite a number of coaches
19:27<Flygon>Well....
19:27<drac_boy>acceleration might be the thing here tho me think
19:27<Flygon>The ratings were intentionally written down lower for the XPT
19:27<Flygon>Because... it's complicated
19:27<drac_boy>heh I don't really want to ask anyway :)
19:27<Flygon>Basically, they wanted the engines to be thrashed around less for maintainence purposs
19:27<Flygon>purposes*
19:27<Flygon>And they were regeared for faster acceleration
19:27<Flygon>Hence why the speed record with an XPT set is 193km/h
19:28<drac_boy>flygon which xpt livery do you think you like better?
19:28<Flygon>This ties up pretty neatly with how the Class 43 suppose to do 200 but hit 241 in testing
19:28<Flygon>http://www.local-community.com.au/images/xpt-travelling.jpg
19:30<drac_boy>dark blue one? hmm interesting
19:30<Flygon>2nd preference is the Indian Red
19:30<drac_boy>I thought the dark reddish one kind matches a lot of the australia landscape better :)
19:31<drac_boy>heh
19:32<drac_boy>btw wiki seem to say the original xpt had 2000bhp instead of 2250bhp rating .. thats not much of a drop
19:33<drac_boy>and not surprisingly budd-built instead of uk-built coaches which seem to make sense considering the interior layout differences
19:35<drac_boy>btw flygon ummm uhhh if you liked the xpt then I don't know if you want hear what happened last year http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/budget-delivers-9-billion-public-transport-services-and-infrastructure
19:35<Flygon>Mate, the XPT was dead a decade ago
19:35<Flygon>The issue is we don't know what'll replace it
19:35<drac_boy>well the hst is still being difficult to kill off (they even got completely re-engined if the new livery wasn't already a sign) .. so you never really know yet
19:35<Flygon>So the railfanning community is suspecting the word "Bus" will be somewhere in the NSW Government's head
19:35<Flygon>Mate...
19:36<Flygon>I think you're too enthusiastic
19:36<Flygon>The current NSW Government is extremely anti-rail
19:36<Flygon>Have you read up on the Newcastle Line Saga?
19:36<Flygon>You know a situation's gotten fucking ridiculous
19:36<drac_boy>nothing wrong with banting a bit is there? beside theres always that quote "if its not broken then don't fix it!"
19:36<Flygon>When the Indigenous Aboriginal population is launching a native land claim
19:36<drac_boy>:P
19:36<Flygon>For the sake of keeping a fucking railway line
19:37<Flygon>NOBODY wants it closed
19:37<Flygon>But there's a LOT of money in brown paper bags being thrown at the Government by land developers _>
19:37<Flygon>>_>*
19:37<Flygon>It's public knowledge
19:37<Flygon>Even Interstate
19:37<drac_boy>flygon if you want to complain a lot more then do that in front of the man who caused the infamous Breech Axe in uk :)
19:37<Flygon>I know about the breeching axe, drac
19:37<Flygon>Both NSW and VIC went through that process 30 years ago
19:37<Flygon>It left us traumatized.
19:38<Flygon>It's why people get so utterly furious the moment the prospect of a trainline closing is brought up
19:38<drac_boy>btw you're not the only one...politics in usa are apparently getting roadbollocked between taking more money from AT&T/etc and ever more people each rolling month complaining about lack of reasonable phone services :-s
19:39<Flygon>Yeah, but
19:39<drac_boy>but I'm guessing that as long as the politics are still quietly taking money from the big companies this probably isn't going to end easily
19:39<Flygon>I gave up on the USA decades ago xP
19:39<Flygon>But this is Australia. We're suppose to HAVE standards. But they're being whittled away...
19:40*drac_boy gives flygon an iron-hard shovel to whack some brass heads with together
19:40<drac_boy>:)
19:40<drac_boy>knock sense in them I say (only if!) heh
19:42<Flygon>Derp
19:43<drac_boy>oh btw that reminds me of a steam photo .. one sec...
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19:47<Flygon>brb irl stuff x.x
19:48<drac_boy>http://wiki.prov.vic.gov.au/images/8/88/12800-P0001-000009-130.jpg seem they ran the coaches as a 'set' what with the observation hump being at both ends
19:48<drac_boy>thats the only one pre-electrificated tait photo I've ever seen atm too
19:56<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a4LO67y_460sv.mp4 O_O
19:57<drac_boy>hi wolf01
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19:58<Wolf01>o/
19:58<drac_boy>oh and flygon when you're back I recalled .. you mentioned about slide vs slam doors on the tait .. well .. heres a funny one . train in europe had its door ripped off at high speed due to the shockwave of two trains passing together in tunnel :->
19:58<drac_boy>I'll have to find which of the recent magazine that crazy blurb was in
19:59<drac_boy>talk about bad doorway design tho
19:59<drac_boy>and hows you wolf01
19:59<Wolf01>6 more minutes and i'll go to sleep
20:00<drac_boy>heh ok have a good sleep then wolf01
20:06<Wolf01>then... night
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20:11<Flygon>drac_boy: Yowee
20:12<drac_boy>flygon yeah..someone seem to have forgotten to test the doors for when two 200+kph trains pass by close together :)
20:12<drac_boy>or thats what I think
20:13*Flygon rubs forehead
20:13<Flygon>Bloody hell
20:13<Flygon>Even the VLos have doors designed against this
20:16<drac_boy>flygon and btw when they talked about the eurostar trains having poor winter shock performance a reader pointed out that when db wanted to test their new electric locomotive some years ago they sent it to some tunnel in swizterland where it could be under -20 outside but the tunnel was well over 5 inside, a good shock to test a locomotive with!
20:16<drac_boy>(this was when the infamous chunnel tunnel stuckup happened in december)
20:16<Flygon>Heheh
20:16<drac_boy>of course the db locomotive never had any problem in its service :)
20:17<drac_boy>one sad thing about the eurostar story was the coverup tho...it turned out that many of the sets did not even have their snow covers placed on (so yep...lot of snow in traction motor vents and so on) and this was in late december 0_o
20:19<drac_boy>flygon mind you some of the usa trains had to deal with it to a small degree too .. both Southern Pacific and Santa Fe specifically .. nothing like a grassy sunny weather when train enters tunnel .. then when it comes out theres snow everywhere!
20:19<drac_boy>bit of extreme climate difference I know..but it was 'normal' for them tho
20:19<Flygon>Man...
20:19<Flygon>Here, the worst you get is flooding xP
20:20<Flygon>(cue Trams and Trains (EMUs) operating inside floodwaters... it was deemed less risky to blow up the train/tram getting it the hell out of there, rather than leaving it parked in floodwaters)
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20:21<drac_boy>flygon and you wonder why some steam locomotives were kept in working order for an unusually long time .. the topo map usually gives you a clue aka having to semi-ford trains through very wide shallow-flood area
20:21<drac_boy>even the GP9 at the time often could fail
20:21*Flygon nod
20:22<drac_boy>mind you diesel-hydraulics (mainly an europe thing ofc) could just waddle through without much fuss as there was almost no electricals to be found (unless trackside signal contacts counted) below the chassis line
20:24<drac_boy>flygon this land seem very flat doesn't it? ;) https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6111/6357946099_284bb757af_b.jpg
20:24<Flygon>It's South-East Asia
20:25<Flygon>The last time they gave a crap was WWII xP
20:25<drac_boy>not deep enough but still goes to show why having no traction motor means noone cares :)
20:25<Flygon>Victoria should try exporting them VLos :P
20:26<Flygon>Assuming they can afford 2,000 litres of fuel for a 50km journey
20:26<drac_boy>flygon btw I forgot the story that I recall reading somewhere before but this was a bit of bad harbour flooding during the 1910's https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3c/1e/dc/3c1edc7fa895e63c09bc248825df4fc4.jpg
20:26<drac_boy>almost deep enough to lap the cab floor but...umm who cared right?
20:27<Flygon>What freaks me most about these sort of floods isn't so much the vehicle being affected
20:27<Flygon>But the TRACKS
20:28<drac_boy>heh .. yeah out in the open I can agree about ballast issues :-s
20:28<drac_boy>in the city rails they were usually poured into the cement stuff tho
20:28<Flygon>Noooooooooooooooooooooooot in Melbourne.
20:28<drac_boy>ah heh
20:29<Flygon>Which's stupid
20:29<drac_boy>anyhow flygon have fun with the rest of your day till some next time ok? I'm going off for a bit re some things to sort out for tomorrow
20:29<Flygon>Because slab track would solve a lot of our problems
20:29<drac_boy>maybe we'll find a new topic (or just continue about crappy rail waters) then ;)
20:29<Flygon>Perhaps we should convert to slab track the same time we SGize the network >_>
20:29<Flygon>Sleep well!
20:30*drac_boy mutters Sh*tty Gauge then runs off laughing about that :p
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20:31<Flygon>If it was up to me
20:31<Flygon>It'd all be brunel gauge >_>
20:44<sim-al2>*construction costs intensify*
20:46<Flygon>sim: Well, it's 170 years late, either way xP
20:46<sim-al2>Clearly the answer is variable gauge axles (oh god the maintenace costs)
20:47<Flygon>To me, the real progression path is clear
20:47<Flygon>SG as much standard rail in the country as possible (Queensland's pmuch fakked tho)
20:47<Flygon>And build new intercity networks using SCMaglev
20:48<Flygon>Like, a standard HST line would do Melbourne-Seymour-Shepperton-Albury/Wodonga-Wagga-Canberra-Sydney (I'm missing a lot of cities NSW-half sorry)
20:48<Flygon>Whereas Maglev would basically be an express journey...
20:48<Flygon>Melbourne-Albury/Wodonga-Wagga-Canberra-Sydney
20:48<sim-al2>I suppose maglev will work for high density corridors, ala Shinkansen, but elimination all backwards compatibility really hurts any chance of regional devolpments
20:48<Flygon>Mate...
20:48<Flygon>The thing is
20:49<Flygon>The MINIMUM distance between stops is so large
20:49<Flygon>Due to various factors over how SCMaglev inherently works
20:49<Flygon>That density ALONG the corridore doesn't matter
20:49<Flygon>Only the amount of patronage at the stops
20:50<Flygon>The cities I've highlighted are very popular air route destinations along the same corridore
20:50<Flygon>Given, presuming SCMaglev can safely hit 800-900km/h without a fuss, the ability to probably out-speed actual aircraft, even with stops, for a Melb-Syd trip
20:50<Flygon>You'll... uhm
20:50<Flygon>Capture a lot of patronage
20:51<sim-al2>To reach those speeds pratically guarentees end-to-end only
20:51<Flygon>Ehh...
20:51<Flygon>There's more than 100km between stops
20:51<Flygon>The speeds will be hit easily
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 23 00:00:46 2015