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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-24

---Logopened Tue Nov 24 00:00:47 2015
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04:49<Wolf01>hi hi
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07:27<Eddi|zuHause>followup: https://github.com/narkoz/hacker-scripts
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07:48<__ln___>http://www.brendangregg.com/Slides/QCon2015_Broken_Performance_Tools.pdf
08:36<Wolf01>tl;dr
08:37<Wolf01>but i think i got the idea
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09:07<Eddi|zuHause>video of the talk might be more helpful
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09:36<Mazur>Oh, you've finally had "the talk"?
09:38<Mazur>Shouldn't your dad or mom have taken you apart for that years ago?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what you're talking about.
10:10<Mazur>Never mind, then. (It was a joke).
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10:43<@Alberth>moin
10:45<andythenorth>o/
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10:48<Mazur>You said it, not I.
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11:57*andythenorth considers adding Yet Another Port to FIRS
11:57<andythenorth>currently have: Bulk Terminal, Trading Post, Port
11:58<@Alberth>make a port economy :p
11:58<andythenorth>this is a spiffing idea
11:58<andythenorth>Only Ports
11:59<@Alberth>it may need a space port? :)
12:00<@Alberth>or an 'air' port
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27456 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt spanish.txt) (2015-11-24 19:45:15 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 7 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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14:30<@Alberth>hoi
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14:30<@Alberth>and hi
14:30<frosch123>hola hi hoi
14:32<frosch123>do you have a good idea for commandline options to lang_sync to upload specific languages?
14:32<frosch123>currently there is "upload-base" and "upload-translations"
14:32<frosch123>i wonder about adding new commands like "upload-dutch", "upload-nl_NL"
14:33<frosch123>or to add other parameters
14:33<frosch123>"--lang dutch --lang de_DE upload-translations"
14:33<frosch123>both don't look good :)
14:34<@Alberth>hmm, there is not the option to list the languages?
14:34<frosch123>no :p
14:35<andythenorth>o/
14:35<frosch123>it only distinguishes base and non-base
14:35<@Alberth>ah, indeed, must be confused with some other language tool
14:35<frosch123>combining the language name with the "upload-" prefix would looks somewhat consistent
14:35<frosch123>but is non-standard at best :)
14:35<@Alberth>yep, I like that idea
14:36<@Alberth>like cat --file a --file b ?
14:41<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/piccl5c09
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14:44<@Alberth>1 looks best to me, imho
14:45<@Alberth>they make "base" and "translations" an abbreviation/alternative
14:46<frosch123>yup, i also like 1
14:47<frosch123>but it cannot be extended to also accept filenames
14:51<@Alberth>hmm :(
14:51<@Alberth> --upload "dutch german foo.txt" ?
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14:52<@Alberth>bit tricky if you have spaces in the filename :p
14:52<frosch123>yup, it needs multiple --upload
14:52<frosch123>--upload-file foo.txt --upload-lang dutch
14:53<@Alberth>not too bad, since it's a script anyway, normally
14:53<@Alberth>manually, you'd do 1 file at a time, I guess
14:54<frosch123>well, this leads to either 3 or 4
14:54<frosch123>but then i prefer 3
14:56<@Alberth>3 needs upload/download to be added?
14:56<@Alberth>or does "--lang dutch" do both?
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14:58<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbduu7epq
15:00<frosch123>--file doesn't really make sense for download
15:00<frosch123>--lang could also work for download
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't "download --file=german.txt" make sense?
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>or let me rephrase that: define a semantics, let the user make sense of the semantics?
15:02<frosch123>what would it do?
15:03<frosch123>if german.txt exists, it would read the langid from that file, and then download the language
15:03<frosch123>if it does not exist, it does what?
15:03<frosch123>people could think to combine it with --lang, but that makes everything even more inconsistent
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>so, it doesn't internally keep track of filenames?
15:04<frosch123>depends :p
15:04<frosch123>newgrfs use the ##grflangid, and don't care about the filename
15:04<frosch123>gamescripts only use the filename, there is no id within the file
15:04<frosch123>openttd, i forgot
15:05<@Alberth>should have ##grflangid :p
15:05<@Alberth>I copied them from there
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>ok. semantics: get the file (if available), throw error message if not.
15:06<@Alberth>good night, I trust you will make something sane :)
15:06<frosch123>maybe i make coffee :p
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>fucking-coffee.sh?
15:07<@Alberth>that sounds sane :)
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15:13<@Rubidium>frosch123: I would definitely use the iso language code, otherwise someone will try "upload-english"
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15:14<@Rubidium>and which English is it (also, how to handle parentheses and spaces?)
15:15<frosch123>https://translator.openttdcoop.org/language-list <- there is only one "english" in third column
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>LANGNAME obviously needs "" if it contains special characters. and filenames as well, but no sane person should do that
15:17<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that's what the shell handles for you
15:17<frosch123>i don't need to care about that
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:17<@Rubidium>frosch123: true, but that isn't the language but rather a file name without extension
15:18<frosch123>ok, but it is what i meant :p
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15:57<@planetmaker>frosch123, my 2ct on eints new parameters: 3) "lang_sync --lang dutch --lang de_DE upload-translations" (filter parameter, default="all languages") looks best to me
15:58<frosch123>i guess that's what we concluded with :)
16:00<@planetmaker>oki :)
16:02-!-drac_boy [~oftc-webi@72.1.195.4] has joined #openttd
16:02<drac_boy>hi
16:18<andythenorth>gold or not gold?
16:19<drac_boy>for what? :)
16:20<andythenorth>FIRS economy
16:20<andythenorth>basic arctic
16:21<drac_boy>hmm...where would the gold had been going to if it was to exist?
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16:22<frosch123>is chemicals your new favorite cargo?
16:22<andythenorth>apparently
16:23<andythenorth>it was always a big deal in FIRS :P
16:23<andythenorth>‘better living through chemistry’ etc
16:23<andythenorth>http://www.carriepackard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DuPont-Logo.jpg
16:26*andythenorth considers renaming chemicals to ‘stuff’
16:26<andythenorth>‘matter’, ‘abstract concepts’, ‘formal relations'
16:27<andythenorth>philosophical economy :P
16:27<andythenorth>“deliver 21 crates of reason”
16:27<drac_boy>as long as you got a good name for beef ;)
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>isn't gold mining something you'd rather find in 3rd world countries?
16:27<drac_boy>eddi well africa may have a lot of the diamond mines but they still also exist in bc,canada .. australia .. etc
16:27<drac_boy>unrelated but just an example
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16:28<drac_boy>and btw eddi sorry to ask but what was the acroymn you mentioned again re that other electrical-than-physical brake system on some of the berlin bahn?
16:29*andythenorth might ignore gold
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>ETCS
16:29<andythenorth>there’s enough cargos, strictly
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember using any other acronyms
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>ETCS is the new european standard
16:30<drac_boy>ah .. etcs .. no wonder I mispelled it and wondered why I couldn't figure out anything
16:30<drac_boy>thanks
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>it's meant to make european railroads more interchangable. but it's probably 50 years away from achieving that :p
16:31<andythenorth>always start early :P
16:31<andythenorth>do I need a tyre plant?
16:31<andythenorth>could deliver rubber to plastics plant
16:31<drac_boy>if I had a few lines of my own I wouldn't had bother..but to our own on that tho
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, railways still use mechanical signalling systems that were installed over 100 years ago...
16:32*andythenorth could use synthetic rubber only
16:33<sim-al2>I think most countries are slowly removing the remaining mechanical signals now
16:33<drac_boy>beside it seem pointless to have overlaps anyway
16:33<sim-al2>In favor of color lights or just straight to cab signaling
16:33<drac_boy>oh and hi sim-a12
16:33<sim-al2>hi
16:33<drac_boy>how doing?
16:34<sim-al2>good
16:34<sim-al2>and you?
16:34<andythenorth>ha ha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM9qGZCc4DY
16:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: ^
16:35<andythenorth>that is neat, and definitely a bit over-engineered
16:35<sim-al2>So here's a question for you Eddi: Do the mainline railways in Europe use signal overlaps?
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16:37<drac_boy>doing ok.long morning to early afternoon but being bit lazy for now before sorting out supper and a bit of paperworks altogether :->
16:38<frosch123>sim-al2: according to german wikipedia, 1 in 100000 trains stop after passing the signals
16:39<frosch123>50% stop less than 10 meter after the signal, 10% stop more than 50 meter after the signal
16:39<frosch123>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durchrutschweg#Deutschland <- there is a table with speed limits and required safe distance after signals
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16:41*drac_boy also had a bit fun not even finding any good photos of the rhb g 3/4 locomotive in normal operation either :->
16:42<@Rubidium>frosch123: what does 1:100.000 trains mean? Is a train the phyisical thing, or the planned thing (i.e. one physical train being planned as multiple trains), and is it per passing of signal or per day or per ???
16:42<sim-al2>Interesting, I read on a forum (so maybe not correct) that the signaling setup used by Amtrak (Northeast Corridor) does not allow for an overlap
16:43<Eddi|zuHause><sim-al2> I think most countries are slowly removing the remaining mechanical signals now <-- the emphasis is on "slow"
16:43<@Rubidium>in the NLs there were 49 trains that passed a red signal
16:43<andythenorth>SPADs :P
16:43<andythenorth>there is an entire YT sub-genre about SPADs
16:43<andythenorth>but then there is probably an entire YT sub-genre for every word in the dictionary
16:44<sim-al2>And furthermore, the ACSES (safety system) forces a stop short of a signal, and if the post I read was correct, doesn't allow a train to approach the signal without using the override button (which requires dispatcher permission)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: rule 34?
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>sim-al2: so that just means the safety distance is _before_ the signal, not _after_ it?
16:45<frosch123>Rubidium: per "train is approaching red signal and needs to stop"
16:45<drac_boy>and have any of you ever seen a koploper and tgv swiped together? :)
16:46<sim-al2>Apparently (according to some thread posts), if a signal is at the end of a platform, a train couldn't even draw up to the platform without permission
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think i've never (physically) seen either a koploper or a tgv
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>sim-al2: well. i know almost nothing about "foreign" signalling systems
16:47<drac_boy>eddi well I dunno why I seem to be able to recall it but it was a strange one where one train (I believe it was the tgv) crept past a red signal and of course the computer didn't act because it was below 20kph .. and swiped into the path of other train
16:47<drac_boy>and heres the aftermath of it https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3279/2931475647_d34bed6338_b.jpg
16:48<drac_boy>apparently the system they had didn't work at crawl speeds
16:48<@Rubidium>drac_boy: s/had/have/
16:49<drac_boy>I believe it was amended/replaced already .. or thats what one of the outcome objective was
16:49<@Rubidium>though they're improving it by some tweaks
16:49<@Rubidium>but a) they haven't finished yet, b) they started with the high risk locations, c) I doubt they'll ever finish it
16:49<sim-al2>Isn't that a problem with the old ATS though, in that it didn't have a stop enforcement component, only that acknowledgement was required?
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16:51<sim-al2>Ok found the post if anyone wants to read through it: (starts here and a few posts down http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=153612&p=1235239&hilit=ACSES+stop+short#p1235239)
16:51<@Rubidium>drac_boy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpg6onAv3fQ <- another Koploper ;)
16:51<sim-al2>I just find the idea weird that signaling practices could vary so much
16:52<sim-al2>Considering that otherwise many signaling practices are found worldwide
16:52<drac_boy>ohh yeah that reminds me of a more grim accident .. I still rather seriously believe that the Talgo 730 should not have a genset thats mounted way above the chassis line without the trainset's maximum speed at *any* time being derated accordingly
16:52<sim-al2>I like that the bicyclists immediatly back up
16:53<drac_boy>(yep that spain curve overspeed where it was the diesel car that first started the derailing)
16:53<sim-al2>Rubidium: Did the train split the switch there?
16:54<@Rubidium>the switch actuator broke which caused the trailing wagons to take another route, but the train remained connected
16:54<sim-al2>In the Talgo derailment, the train was very much over the speed limit anyway, the generator car just happened to be the first to go, the locomotive probably would have gone if the train was much faster
16:56<drac_boy>sim-a12 well the problem is..derailing with equal gravity would had been less messy than the heavy car jacking thing ... just ask the prior tgv accidents
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>sim-al2: the problem there was at the end of the new high-speed signalling system it didn't enforce lowering the speed to the "normal" level
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16:57<@Rubidium>well, time for ERTMS level 3
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>so the train took a 80km/h curve with like 200km/h
16:57*Rubidium wonders what happened with the French system one and a half week ago
16:58*andythenorth wondered that too
16:58<sim-al2>It's true that the signaling system was not adequete for the end of a high-speed segment therw
16:58<drac_boy>ouch .. that koploper splitting it .. thankful for the platforms to "contain" it from doing a zig-zag onto the ground
16:58<drac_boy>(I think....anyway)
16:58<sim-al2>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckwersheim_derailment
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: what exploded there at 0:16?
16:59<sim-al2>Looks like the catenary shorted out on the train?
16:59<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's the catenary shorting
16:59<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the catenary short circuited
16:59<@Rubidium>drac_boy: what platforms?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i think it was a test run above the speed limit, and the brake was too late
17:00<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: 10% above speed limit, and at least 1 minute late... and you reckon one of the seven in the cab would have noticed it earlier...
17:00<sim-al2>The article claims 90km/h above the speed limit
17:01<@Rubidium>sim-al2: the test run was for 10% above the speed limit, but due to breaking too late it was way way over speed
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i don't think signalling helps for such exception tests
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17:02<Eddi|zuHause>they probably disabled some security systems
17:02<sim-al2>Yes, it took a curve far too fast at the junction between the new segment and the exisiting track
17:02<sim-al2>http://www.sncf.com/ressources/rapport_denquete_deraillement_rame_dessai_814521_sur_le_raccordement_de_la_lgv_ee_le_14_novembre_2015.pdf
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: most of the wagons did not leave the rails, no platforms involved
17:03<sim-al2>The scheduled speed was 176km/h, but the train entered at 265km/h
17:04<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: both TVM-430 and ERTMS were disabled
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>sim-al2: i don't speak enough french to understand that
17:04<+glx>Rubidium: braking 10s too late
17:05<+glx>and way too many people in a test train
17:05<sim-al2>And derailed at 243km/h , I think the curve was 945m radius
17:05<sim-al2>I don't either, but I know what I'm looking for (and Google translate :) )
17:06<@Rubidium>http://www.sncf.com/ressources/shema_des_vitesses.jpg
17:07<@Rubidium>glx: and the graph says 1 km... my mistake (I remembered wrong)
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>so it was 1km too late
17:10<sim-al2>Appearently some employees had their children onboard
17:11<drac_boy>looks like the talgo diesel was mounted right over the truck (rather than slung low on the chassis rails?) with a 6600kg weight (which I assume is the total car weight but likely more than half of that nearly halfway up)
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17:11<drac_boy>1800kW engine
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i don't see how that is relevant
17:13<drac_boy>if it was not so heavy on gravity (or mounted properly low to more match the existing trainset) it wouldn't had been as bad
17:13<sim-al2>The locomotive has a decent center of gravity too, the speed was traveling so fast that anything could have caused a derailment
17:14<sim-al2>*train was traveling
17:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 except that if it was the front to come first it would had been a different lighter fail
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that is pure speculation
17:15<sim-al2>There's still a concrete wall on the outside of an 80km/h curve
17:15<drac_boy>although in some cases agriculation counts (as the tgv's history showed)
17:15<+glx>7 people in the cab
17:16<drac_boy>glx..I'm still curious why childs could had been on that non-public train but mm going wait for the magazine to follow up on it yet :-s
17:17<+glx>usually familly
17:17<drac_boy>oh uggg....forgot been talking for a while..sorry need to afk to get supper ready before seven -_-
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17:17<sim-al2>The children shouldn't have been there, but I suppose the other employees didn't want to confront their parents about that
17:19<+glx>anyway 7 people in the cab for a test run is too much
17:20<sim-al2>The World Speed record run had a number in the cab, it's a pretty big space
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: btw. there is a longer version of the report here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2KKoeF_M5A
17:24<FLHerne>WCRC are banned from operating steam locos in the UK again, for disabling overspeed protection while running...
17:24<sim-al2>Ok, I just watched the CCTV footage from the Spain derailment, the generator car goes first but even in the fuuzy footage you can see the locomotive is nearly off the inner rail too
17:25<FLHerne>They were banned for weeks earlier in the year for exactly the same reason, should've taken the hint
17:25<sim-al2>And of course the whole train follows the generator car instead of being pulled off like the locomotive
17:26<sim-al2>Wow those guys did that AGAIN? I thought they were lucky to be allowed back
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>(also an english version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0CUEEDCJ_s)
17:27<FLHerne>sim-al2: Yup. The full report for the first time around hasn't even been issued yet :-/
17:27<FLHerne>But then, DCR got away with Stafford
17:28<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I read the actual report
17:28<sim-al2>I remember the report for the Candian oil shipment derailment took a while (months), but that required a detailed assessment
17:29<@Rubidium>sim-al2: this report took 11 months
17:30<sim-al2>Shouldn't that impact on the wheels be detected by an inspection train?
17:30<+glx>yeah inspections, tell that to killed people at bretigny
17:31<sim-al2>You're speaking to the choir here
17:31<+glx>inspections are useless if nothing is done after them
17:33<@Rubidium>sim-al2: inspection trains don't detect impact on the wheels, what can be detected are the gaps in the gauge but due to the wheels moving the flange the measurements are wrong
17:33<sim-al2>That's very true, sometimes I'm surprised how few accidents occur
17:33<@Rubidium>having said that, with linescan video you could notice the effects of driving against the flange
17:34<@Rubidium>furthermore, back then the infrastructure owner didn't do switch measurements by train yet and no other measurements (besides manual ones) have measurements for the flange gap
17:35<sim-al2>That's an interesting form of fatigue failure, I almost would expect the switch rail to fail due to fatigue stress caused by the flange contacts
17:36<+glx>bretigny was clearly a lack of maintainance
17:36<@Rubidium>the switch rail can easily deform, the joint that broke can't. Not to mention that the joint was designed to break at a particular force
17:37<+glx>missing screws, unsecured bolts
17:39<@Rubidium>also a fun factoid... once looking at rail "in real life" was replaced by looking at pictures of rail in the office the inspection frequency was slowly lowered due to the fact that more was spotted earlier and trends could be seen by looking at previous images
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>what was bretigny again?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>that thing where the train went over the platform?
17:41<sim-al2>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahnunfall_von_Br%C3%A9tigny-sur-Orge
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause>so, yes.
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17:51<+glx>recent weird incident was the train unable to brake after a collision with a cow
17:52<+glx>makes no sense to me
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19:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know any context to that. but some train brakes need stored pressure to work, and if that was unloaded by an interruption, of a previous brake attempt, they might not work (immediately)
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>s/of/or/
19:03<sim-al2>Even an emergency application won't drain the system, only the control pipe
19:03<sim-al2>And a reduction in the auxillary reservoirs of course
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>there might also be secondary failures at play. like blocking of the air connection
19:08<+glx>https://twitter.com/SUDRail_Norm/status/657058806510329856
19:08<sim-al2>I missed the part before now, what is the context here?
19:08<+glx>it needed 20km and a hill
19:09<+glx>then it slowed enough so the driver could jump out of it and put blocks between rail and wheel to prevent the train to move in the other way
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19:11<Eddi|zuHause>it could also be that the controls from the cab weren't propagated to the actual device it should engage, but i'd have expected that going to the other cab would solve that
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19:11<+glx>emergency brake didn't worked at all
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>the train was probably lucky that it had 20km free
19:12<sim-al2>A blockage in brake pipe (i.e. control valve) seems less likely on a EMU train than say, a locomotive-hauled train
19:13<sim-al2>No electric braking?
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19:14<Eddi|zuHause>you'd also usually have two or three independent braking systems onboard, plus the ability to get the engine to go "backwards"
19:15<Flygon>Electric Braking works hand-in-hand with Air Braking
19:15<Flygon>Assuming you mean rheostatic
19:15<sim-al2>Or regenerative...
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19:16<sim-al2>I assume that these modern MU trains have combined controls (i.e. brake handle controls air and electric)
19:16<drac_boy>sorry didn't meant to leave so shortly...but anyhow started with the meat then soon the premade bread dough ... then some brown rice .. so ah yeah .. one hour supper heh :->
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>that kinda defies the term "independent"
19:17<sim-al2>Eh, I've seen this "independent" references, but I suspect that they come from media sources or others...
19:17<drac_boy>sim-a12 I always wondered about some of the "desk" controls .. for me I dunno if I'm old fashioned or not but I've always prefer the separate throttle/air (other than for trams with their deadman-equipped combo handlebar)
19:18<sim-al2>Plenty of rolling stock now has rolling stock where the throttle and brake control are on the same handle, works better for MU trains obviously
19:18<drac_boy>hm say I forgot if theres a proper term but as I recall you had to push down the arm then turn it to get effect .. and if you ever let your weight up or anything it'll kick in the full emergency brakes
19:19<sim-al2>Desk doesn't require combined controls though, see modern US locomotives with throttle, train air and independent (locomotive consist) brake controls
19:19<sim-al2>Deadman handle probably
19:19<drac_boy>sim-a12 yeah but this one isn't a dedicated one..I just wish I could remember the term they used for it (especially on the pre-PPC trams)
19:20<sim-al2>Some equipment used a pedal instead
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>i heard that deadman thingies are being phased out
19:20<+glx>seems the driver switched to emergency mode right before the collision
19:20<sim-al2>Yeah, many countries use alerters of some variety now, they go off after a period of time
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>because studies showed that they had to be used so reflexively that the drivers literally could operate them in their sleep
19:20<+glx>then the emergency button in the other cab was pressed too
19:21<sim-al2>Although France at least has a combined variety, the pedal has to be held down, but let up and pressed again after a period of time
19:22<drac_boy>eddi also pedals were sometimes completely hated by companies themself because some drivers had too much habit of simply plopping their lunchbag (or workbag in case of steam era crews) onto the floor over pedal neutralizing its real use
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>so the effect to prevent sleeping and cause attention was nonexistent
19:22<drac_boy>at least usa-wise anyhow
19:22<sim-al2>In the US there was a rear-end collision between two freight trains where the colliding train's crew seems to have both fallen asleep, but the engineer was still hitting the alerter reset every so often...
19:23<+glx>so nice to let them finish their sleep
19:23<sim-al2>Yeah, the pedals in particular weren't that hard to defeat, at least without a system to require another action
19:23<drac_boy>sim-a12 unrelated but I recall one story where a new fireman mentioned that when he finally looked to the right the engineer was completely fast asleep .. he was starting to wonder about pulling the whistle as they were getting pretty close to a road crossing when suddenly the engineer woke up for a second, pulled the whistle, then went back to sleep
19:24<drac_boy>fireman quipped that the engineer must had gone over this route a thousand time that he could whistle every crossing in his sleep (which the engineer actually did)
19:24<sim-al2>I've read stories like that too
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19:25<Eddi|zuHause>there was an incident a few years ago where a railcar went off without driver, and only stopped at the other end of the line some 20km later
19:25<sim-al2>"opps"
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19:27<Eddi|zuHause>there were no signals inbetween that could have stopped it, and all the road crossings were automatically engaged. so it had no security implications
19:27<drac_boy>oh and btw found a photo https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Controls_of_1927_tram_in_Buenos_Aires%2C_Argentina_%2815321349543%29.jpg/640px-Controls_of_1927_tram_in_Buenos_Aires%2C_Argentina_%2815321349543%29.jpg that sort of throttle/deadman combo (the hingle is noticeable too) is what I often see on older trams here
19:27<sim-al2>They were almost universal in traction (interurbans, trams, and subways used very similar equipment for many years)
19:28<drac_boy>seem some other photos also show a separate brake bar too so I guess there were the triple deadman/throttle/brake and separate deadman/throttle + brake setups ... but I've not seen the latter kind personally tho
19:28<sim-al2>That really could be any 1910-1930's tram/interurban car
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>i would have expected the brake to be the handle with the blue tube running out of it on the right
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19:29<sim-al2>I think it is, next to the handbrake
19:29<drac_boy>eddi yeah thats the separate one indeed
19:30<sim-al2>Interestingly, the trams/interurbans in US had more advanced brake technology than the steam railroads did
19:30<drac_boy>oh and sim-a12/eddi quick question as we're almost there .. is the "pull back for throttle, push forward for brake" kind of single desk handle a typical configuration with re highspeed sets?
19:31<sim-al2>Sometimes it is
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue what you're talking about
19:32<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh well electric started with trams and the initial mainline locomotives sometimes were pretty much based off the same technology till they progressed at their own level .. or thats what I recall from some of the usa locomotives
19:33<sim-al2>Yeah, I was amused to see that graduated release appeared around at least 1906, if not before, and yet still isn't universal
19:34<drac_boy>sim-a12 ah yeah brakes is an interesting history in itself
19:35<sim-al2>I've been looking, appearently the Shinksansen still have seperate brake handles, and so do the European high-speed trains
19:36<sim-al2>Even the new N700s http://toretabi.com/train/images/train_03/pht_05.jpg
19:36<drac_boy>sim-a12 there is also the thing where some of the 4-4-2 and similar small big-drivers steam locomotives often only had good brakes on the tender and perhaps the trailing/pony axles so one unofficial way to bring them down a long grade (even train inspectors knew it was not in the book but they turned a blind eye to it anyway) always was to set the throttle slightly in reverse and keep up a modest fire going
19:36<drac_boy>talk about using backcompression to keep speed in check as there was not enough brakepad power otherwise
19:37<sim-al2>I've seen that, appearently it's fine as long as pressure to the cylinders is not too high
19:38<drac_boy>and even one engineer quipped "I always set it into the little hole" when asked how he made station stops .. theres of course no such thing as "little hole" .. he actually meant he always dumped emergency brakes!
19:38<drac_boy>sometimes you got to wonder about these particular little-and-fast steamers :)
19:38<sim-al2>That might work on a commuter train... the ride though must have been pretty rough
19:38<drac_boy>this wasn't commuter :)
19:39<sim-al2>Stopping downhill? 0.o
19:39<drac_boy>at least later the boiler got bigger (to sustain longer lightweight consists and ever-higher speeds) so eventually the modern 4-4-4's and so had no problem being fully equipped on all roller bearing axles with air brakes
19:40<sim-al2>I've been reading through a book in the library, it specifices a lot of cool brake information, but the brake ratios have been pretty high almost from the beginning, 150% in emergency is possible (and results in a very hard stop)
19:41<drac_boy>this one http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/Foto_Loco_Vere/Hiawatha%204-4-2.jpg wouldn't have any problem using brakes in normal way as beside it was a bit heavy
19:41<drac_boy>they literally could do "a mile a minute" easily (and if late? well umm don't ask how fast she'll go!)
19:42<sim-al2>well, 60mph=1mile/minute
19:42<drac_boy>sim-a12 one of the funny thing about these particular trains is that the ads said "as fast and swift as an arrow" or something to that effect
19:42<drac_boy>back then in the 1930's that was probably believeable :)
19:43<sim-al2>Compared to most other things, sustained speeds like that definetly would be good
19:44<drac_boy>ah looks like the schedules for the later larger version (same streamlining look tho) was 160kph (with stop-go average speed being 130kph)
19:45<drac_boy>thats quite fast :)
19:45<drac_boy>of course everything got slowed down rapidly due to traffic crunch in 1940+
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>all express steam engines i know that used B-coupling were discontinued quickly because of too low TE
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>which lead to 2'C1' being THE wheel arrangement for this type of engine
19:46<drac_boy>well it could depend on the trains themself tho .. canada actually used the 4-4-2 to quite good effect on short loads along the london<>quebeccity network
19:47<drac_boy>but if you wanted to handle say a heavy newyork to boston load then yeah "just" 3 coaches would be too insufficent
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19:51<sim-al2>On the big limited trains, even 4-6-2 wasn't enough, with 4-6-4 and even 4-8-4 appearing before the end
19:52<drac_boy>hm looks like even five coaches over short distance wasn't hard on them http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/croarchives/2013/maycro/maycp.15.jpg
19:52<drac_boy>but then again having a relatively level land probably helped
19:53<drac_boy>new york partially had to get their very huige 4-8-4 because some part of their route involved close to 2% grades
19:53<sim-al2>Yeah, level routes probably could go even longer easily, but once it gets hilly...
19:54<drac_boy>sim-a12 and this is what the "huge" nyc 4-8-4 looked like eventually http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/nycr6001.jpg and look at where the bell had to go because the boiler was pushing the track gauge clearance :P
19:54<drac_boy>(hint: look down, not up)
19:55<sim-al2>Got to put it somewhere :)
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>the germans built a 2'Do1' steam engine
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>with 4 individually driven axles instead of coupled axles
19:56<sim-al2>That sounds complex...
19:58<drac_boy>sim-a12 yeah .. still .. it was a massive thing ;)
19:58<drac_boy>killed early due to diesels tho
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>apparently i misremembered, it was 1'Do1' http://schneider-mayenfisch.com/drg_lokomotiven_19_1001.htm
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20:03<drac_boy>eddi ahh I remember seeing that before..one sec..
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>it seems to have rather small wheels for such a fast engine
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20:08<drac_boy>nevermind might look for it tomorrow
20:08<drac_boy>and hmm yeah maybe
20:08<drac_boy>either way going for now..have fun sim-a12 ;)
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20:43<Wolf01>'night
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20:52<Flygon_>sim-al2: Seeing you two discuss how the wheel arrangements just got bigger and bigger..
20:53<Flygon_>I'm surprised more railways didn't just make artic. lcoos
20:53<Flygon_>locos*
20:53-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
20:53<Flygon>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_AD60_class_locomotive Like this type
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21:03<Flygon>They were pretty speedy, too
21:03<Flygon>Despite being artic.
21:05<sim-al2>There were a number of articulated freight engines, both Mallet and simple
21:07<sim-al2>While not articulated, there was this monster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_T1
21:09<Flygon>Ooh
21:09<Flygon>Yes
21:09<Flygon>I am so disappointed none were preserved
21:10<Flygon>If only to see if it truly was the Shinkansen before Shinkansens existed
21:10<Flygon>That, and
21:10<Flygon>It would've been nice for them to live long enough
21:10<Flygon>To be converted to 4-8-4, instead of 4-4-4-4
21:12<Flygon>Huh
21:12<Flygon>There's a group building a replica...
21:12<Flygon>I wonder if they'll go 4-4-4-4 or 4-8-4...
21:13<Flygon>Because, y'know
21:13<Flygon>Wheelslip issues
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21:14<Flygon>I mean...
21:14<Flygon>"The T-1 4-4-4-4 had such power that the engineer, if not careful on the throttle, could have violent wheel slip at 100 miles per hour, causing damage to the poppet valves"
21:14<Flygon>There's clearly some design issues that require some modifications when building a modern one x.x
21:15<sim-al2>That's one of the difficult things with steam locomotives, the idlers are needed to keep axle load down but decreasing the weight on the drivers makes the low factor of adhesion even worse
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21:18<Flygon>Wasn't the only reason they went with two separate drivers because WWII required them to use crap steel?
21:19<Flygon>Given there isn't a WWII going on atm, they could probably get the drawbars made out of tungsten if they wanted to xP
21:20<sim-al2>Uh no, these were possibly some of the most advanced steamers ever built, the 2 sets of drivers were for good performance at high speeds, with some very, very complex camshaft valve gear
21:22<Flygon>Oh O_o
21:22<Flygon>Alright
21:22<sim-al2>Drawbar strength is usually limited so that it breaks first and not other things, like the PRR found out with wooden boxcars
21:22<Flygon>I just assumed it was because poor quality steel meant they couldn't build a strong enough drawbar when designing for a 4-8-4 arrangement
21:22<Flygon>Whereas 4-4-4-4 is far less stressful because, y'know
21:24<sim-al2>Plenty of steam locomotives were built during the war, and although probably not as quality steel, they were a priority production item
21:24<sim-al2>The 4-4-4-4 production run happened after the war ended
21:24<Flygon>Hmm
21:25<Flygon>Alright
21:26<sim-al2>Actually there was a material problem, the poppet valves used in the valve gear weren't strong enough for the demands required of them and needed replacement often
21:27<Flygon>That might be it
21:27<Flygon>It has been a while since I looked into it, note x.x
21:28<sim-al2>But that was more of a problem with complex valvegear, which is why many locomotives still had simplier sliding types
21:31<sim-al2>Basically the 4-4-4-4 is the one of the ultimate expressions of the Superpower steam locomotives of the 1930s, they measured 6500hp in a running tests, which puts it among the most powerful ever built
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21:56<Flygon>sim-al2: And I thougth Heavy Harry hitting 3500-4000hp was overkill x.x
21:57<Flygon>http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/harry/h220slv.jpg When you mash British and American style engineering together, you get this thing @_@
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22:02<Flygon>I forgot if the T1 was in the 2CC set or not...
22:02<Flygon>Prolly isn't set for 225km/h either way <_>
22:02<sim-al2>Running costs did the big ones in, although some like the 4-8-8-4 "Big Boys" earned their keep in service, espeically during WWII
22:04*Flygon nod
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22:04<Flygon>Harry lasted from the late 30s to around 1956ish here...
22:04<Flygon>Probably due to how absurdly overpowered it was
22:05<Flygon>Hell, even publications locally in the 1950s would say "Australia's Best/Most Powerful/Whatever Locomotive". Despite it being over 15 years old and stuck in the middle of the Diesel-Electric revolution.
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22:07<Flygon>Just kind of baffling that they designed Australia's single most useful freight locomotive of the era while trying to design an express passenger locomotive
22:08<Flygon>They designed it for the opposite purpose what it was best at!!
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22:09<sim-al2>With enough pulling power, a big express locomotive easily makes a decent fast freight locomotive too, universal locomotives have been around for a long time
22:11<Flygon>"Enough pulling power"
22:11<Flygon>They built the most powerful non-articulated locomotive in Australia until the NR-Class finally overtook it
22:11<Flygon>In 1995.
22:11<sim-al2>4-8-4 will do it, especially with the axle load limits
22:11*Flygon nod
22:12<Flygon>I do note
22:12<Flygon>That the axle load was so high
22:12<Flygon>It was only actually allowed to run on one branchline
22:12<Flygon>And it wasn't even the intended branchline
22:12<sim-al2>Also I wonder if the need existed either, given that most of the railways bought diesels that could MU
22:12<Flygon>Tho, nowadays, it could probably run on both it's 'intended' line, and the branchline it ended up running on
22:12<Flygon>Gauge conversion permitting
22:13<Flygon>It was built in the 1930s. Diesels weren't a thing.
22:13<Flygon>Though, I want to note
22:13<Flygon>Later VR steam locos got fitted with DMU capability
22:13<sim-al2>Right, but obviously either money was lacking or the need wasn't great enough for serial production
22:13<Flygon>The steam loco had to lead (because, y'know, the Diesel locomotives can't drive the steam locomotive), but otherwise...
22:14<sim-al2>I'm sure that little WWII invasion threat didn't help
22:14<Flygon>Yeah, WWII is what borked everything over
22:14<Flygon>It's kind of frustrating
22:14<Flygon>VR wanted to undergo a HUGE network renewal project
22:14<Flygon>The H-Class was just part of it...
22:14<Flygon>And instead they had 10-15 years of runnng their rollingstock down to the bone
22:15<Flygon>Such as Freight Locomotives being forcibly made to run the Spirit of Progress streamliners...
22:15<Flygon>(not that they didn't do half bad in keeping the schedule, but it's obviously not ideal)
22:16<sim-al2>So in the US, EMD and the other manufacturers got a big boost out of replacing wornout steamers with their new designs
22:16<Flygon>And when VR finally got the chance to undergo their biggest infrastructure renewal in the 1950s
22:16<Flygon>Including electrifying a shitload of the network, and ordering a crapload of Steam and Diesel locos (they were still unsure about Diesel locos at the time. This's also why we have so many ridiculously modern steam locos running about today still).
22:17<Flygon>And they went right on it.
22:17<Flygon>I do note, part of the reason also that VR had to limit Diesel orders is because they only wanted AMERICAN Diesels
22:17<Flygon>And they had limited USD available...
22:17<Flygon>(Electric locos were English Electric, so, no currency problems there)
22:17<Flygon>But...
22:18<Flygon>They ran out of USD early
22:18<Flygon>And then the Government/s cut the Operation Phoenix budget by 90%.
22:18<sim-al2>I noticed that English Electric had some early success with South Australia/CR
22:18<Flygon>Which kind of caught VR by surprise.
22:19<Flygon>So VR were kind of stuck in stagnation from the 1950s to the 1990s simply due to the moment that should've made them an incredibly modern operator
22:19<Flygon>Instead leaving them where they started
22:19<Flygon>And the flow-on effects are STILL felt to this day
22:19<Flygon>With V/Line having to keep 1930s era VR stock on-call, and other equipment shortages
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