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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-28

---Logopened Sat Nov 28 00:00:53 2015
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02:48<andythenorth>such FIRS
02:48<andythenorth>@seen pikka
02:48<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Pikka> well
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02:54<andythenorth>‘phosphate’ or ‘phosphates’ ?
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03:40<andythenorth>hi Terkhen :)
04:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think it's usually plural
04:08<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't know english...
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05:52<Wolf01>hi o/
05:54<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
05:56<Flygon>EddizuHause: Furs is a plural. FIRS isn't. ;3
05:58*andythenorth needs a GS
06:05<Wolf01>i must retry the windows update... this night it failed at drivers stage :|
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06:08<Wolf01>i must admit that windows is really more robust now, it survived a hard reset during the update without problems... do it with XP/Vista
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06:14<drac_boy>hi wolf01 not-sleepy? ;)
06:14<drac_boy>heh hows you anyhow
06:15<Wolf01>no, not sleepy
06:20<drac_boy>I'm ok either way..just trying to browse some ads (with a serious lack of filtering...meh) for a while now before I need to decide what to do re breakfast :)
06:26*andythenorth must draw: copper refinery, copper mine, phosphate mine, pyrite mine, pyrite smelter, supply yard, tyre plant, vineyard, vehicle factory
06:27<andythenorth>8 industries, 5 months
06:27<andythenorth>it takes a weekend to draw an industry
06:27<andythenorth>I get about 1 weekend without interruptions a month, at best
06:27<andythenorth>FIRS 2 isn’t going to be done on time :)
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06:31-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
06:31<andythenorth>Alberth: o/
06:31<@Alberth>hi hi
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06:36<drac_boy>have fun drawing everything still andy ;)
06:49<Wolf01>bah, every f*****g day the tram stops in the bridge to Venice because of broken vehicles, and at this point i can't understand why they didn't use a trolley bus instead... and also i can't understand why so many vehicles breaks there every day
06:52<drac_boy>wolf01 in italy?
06:53<drac_boy>oh is that the one called Ponte della Liberta?
06:53<Wolf01>yes, that
06:54<Wolf01>mmmh, lunch
06:55<drac_boy>hm..I dunno what to say .. theres heavy rails parallel to it except I don't think a rail shuttle could work for the other side of bridge (inland in italy yeah) .. yeah I dunno what to really say seeing I don't even know much beyond names now :)
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07:17<drac_boy>wolf01 so what you having for lunch anyhow?
07:29<andythenorth>Alberth: is there anything that would motivate you to work on BB for a bit? o_O
07:30<@Alberth>I tried yesterday and failed :p
07:31<@Alberth>Today another attempt is planned
07:34<Wolf01>[13:17:46] <drac_boy> wolf01 so what you having for lunch anyhow? <- stuff, i don't know how to call it, in substance gnocchi of spinach and bread with bacon and parmesan cheese
07:35<drac_boy>sounds like a good pasta lunch anyhow :)
07:35<drac_boy>funny enough I'm in middle of breakfast atm .. just waiting for next pancake from pan to be ready
07:35<andythenorth>Alberth: it would much help my FIRS testing :)
07:36<Wolf01>with the difference that there isn't a bit of pasta
07:36<@Alberth>I am aware of that :p
07:36<andythenorth>I have worn out SV and NCG :)
07:40<@Alberth>maybe just add a bit of random as quick hack?
07:40<drac_boy>wolf01 well .. gnocchi for some reason is often lumped as a pasta dish
07:41<andythenorth>nah, my quick hacks aren’t savegame safe, probably :)
07:42<andythenorth>I have to draw industries anyway
07:44<@Alberth>there is some selection code for picking the "best" destination, if you throw in some random there, you'll get more variation.
07:46<andythenorth>FindChallenge() ?
07:47<@Alberth>/me looks
07:47<andythenorth>I also have my patch to prevent repeat goals here
07:47<andythenorth>it works until I reload a savegame
07:47<andythenorth>which is a bit of an ‘oops’ moment :)
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07:50<@Alberth>yes, you would probably split the foreach in two steps. First just collect feasible solutions without checking for 'best'; then (simple) just pick one of the feasible solutions, or pick one of the top N.
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08:07*andythenorth looking
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08:11<drac_boy>going afk for a bit anyhow, have fun wolf01 n andy
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08:12<Wolf01>oh, thank you... i got stuck in numberphile again
09:00<Wolf01>let's retry the update, bbl
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09:58<Wolf01>bah the update broke the hyper-v virtual ethernet, leaving me without connection
09:59<Wolf01>removed the virtual ethernet, so the virtual machines are now without connection
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12:38<Wolf01> Strange Train Facts
12:39<Wolf01>the third one :o
12:40<Wolf01>the last one also
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15:12*andythenorth has not made FIRS
15:12*andythenorth has made Lego instead
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16:13<drac_boy>just curious if theres any steam heads (heh?) here .. exactly how do you classify these few locomotives that are both bunkers and tender type in one?
16:16<Wolf01>the what?
16:16<Wolf01>you mean these?
16:18<drac_boy>no thats bunker-only so it would had been a 0-6-0T
16:18<drac_boy>one sec I think I know where to find a photo...
16:18<@Terkhen>good night
16:19<Wolf01>i found 2-6-2 too
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16:25<drac_boy>missing bunker but still has the water carried forward tho to give you an idea
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16:28<Wolf01>could this help you?
16:29<Wolf01>need to go, my people need me
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16:52<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the austrians had this construction:
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16:55<Snail>drac_boy: bunker and tender? meaning they have coal and water reservoirs both on the engine itself and on the separate tender?
16:57<drac_boy>yeah snail .. I dunno if its just my lack of sleep or not re if my wordings were poor :->
16:57<Snail>:) I know one of this type, and it’s classified as a tender locomotive (as separate tender)
16:57<drac_boy>I know some uk railroad had some of these little saddle+tender but again I dunno if its my lack of sleep but I can't find a crap for these either :->
16:58<Snail>this one had a coal reservoir on the engine, and water in the tender
16:58<Snail>not sure about such engines on UK railroads
16:58<drac_boy>yeah that odd locomotive does seem to match :)
16:58<drac_boy>the box could be better matched with the boiler tho .. that looks weird as-is heh
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17:01<Snail>yeah, it was an experimental design
17:01<Snail>one of the few ones built in Europe I think. Cab-forward engines were mostly successful in the US
17:02<Supercheese>I remember going to the Sacramento railroad museum as a kid and their cab-forward engine featured prominently
17:03<Supercheese> This guy
17:03<drac_boy>snail mm well yeah the main reason Southern Pacific made theirs cab-forward was due to ease of oil firing to put the smokestack behind the cab to avoid crew suffocation problems in the long on-grade tunnels
17:04<drac_boy>although you could find photos of such trains still sometimes being doubleheaded so the second crew still had to suffer nevertheless :-s
17:04<Snail>yep… the alternative solution was electricity :p
17:04<Snail>but that never quite got any traction around here
17:05<drac_boy>and humm I don't know why but the DRG.05 was also built with at least one or two cabforward flavour on top of the few more conventional ones
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>they did that mostly just to try it
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17:07<drac_boy>snail .. about electric .. well .. funny story but N&W actually had one short electrification section due to difficult grades but later on a new route reduced the grade making it workable with steam and this was what caused their last batch of mallets (to order new ones in 1950's was a bit unusual) to be built after the electric was disassembled
17:07<drac_boy>I think they were the only one to do electric>steam replacement usa-wise
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>there were 2 conventional and 1 cab-forward of that series
17:07<drac_boy>everyone else went electric>diesel
17:08<Hiddenfunstuff>electric > diesel-electric
17:08*drac_boy whacks hiddenfunstuff with a diesel-hydraulic
17:09<Hiddenfunstuff>Diesel-electric is way more efficient way than just diesel with mechanical transmission
17:09<drac_boy>depends tbh .. hydraulic can and sometimes did have a direct lockup (usually used when at speed)
17:10<Hiddenfunstuff>diesel torque curve is narrow, its power curve is narrow.. Its much more efficient to have large diesel engine hooked up to large generator that powers electrical drive motors.. which might have some simple gearbox for torque/speed settings infront of the motor
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17:11<drac_boy>if you're a shunter/switcher yeah but otherwise when changing infrequently the electric loss is more noticeable
17:11<Hiddenfunstuff>diesel-hydraulic might work for lighter trains such as passengers might work with that.. diesel-electric in freight trains is more common
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17:12<@Rubidium>just get rid of diesel trains altogether
17:14<Hiddenfunstuff>and replace them with?
17:14<drac_boy>rubidium heh well the real problem is to wire "everything" (even New Haven still had spots that had to be steam/diesel worked up to till the PC "failure") including that little-used branchlines etc
17:14<Hiddenfunstuff>Also in places where its cold and snowing.. electricity is not exactly most reliable solution always
17:14<@Rubidium>Hiddenfunstuff: hydrogen fuel cells?
17:14<Hiddenfunstuff>Atleast if its modern electrics
17:15<drac_boy>not surprisingly a good % of the metre gauge network in switzerland (and thats not counting freight sidings or anything) are not wired which explains the few types of heavy haul diesels on hand
17:15<Hiddenfunstuff>arent hydrogen fuel cells dangerous if they get slightly banged up and shot?
17:15<@Rubidium>if they are, then they're badly designed
17:15<Hiddenfunstuff>Because you must consider the kind of goods the train carry.. there could be some RID cargo
17:16<drac_boy>at least for stations that don't need every single feet to be wired theres always these tiny little diesel or electro-diesel shunter boxes sitting around :)
17:16<Hiddenfunstuff>which might either act as oxidyzer or just highly volatile
17:16<drac_boy>I admit some of these look quite tiny (basically a 2-person cab box on a flatcar with overhanging roof)
17:17<Hiddenfunstuff>As someone who worked at railyard and diesel mechanic there.. I grew to hate the newer electric units
17:17<Hiddenfunstuff>Meanwhile the good old diesel-electric from like 1960s ran fine after even 45 years
17:17<drac_boy>heres one of the larger version
17:18<drac_boy>(well larger as in a roomy cab)
17:18<Hiddenfunstuff>and the only 10 year old electric (semi-bullet train-ish passenger) units were every winter out of service in the repair queue
17:18<@Rubidium>Hiddenfunstuff: but if it escapes it dissipates quickly, whereas diesel would spill onto the ground and cause problems there
17:19<Hiddenfunstuff>but could hydrogen replace the diesel as in torque?
17:19<Hiddenfunstuff>or how do you would think the hydrogen would be converted into power/electricity?
17:20<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff btw about what you mentioned .. yeah I've noticed too many times (or at least per Todays Railway Europe) that a new fleet of locomotive often run into issues and the supposed-to-be-decomissioned older ones have to take over and basically 'just keep going and going' :)
17:21<Hiddenfunstuff>drac_boy These are the 'swiss army knives' of the rail fleet.. basically did everything from shunting to heavy freight when in pair/triple drive
17:21<drac_boy>I recall one particular magazine now that mentioned "the older ones were made of more stern metal" re new one failing often during winter (and its only like -10 of all the things like ummm what the heck??)
17:22<@Rubidium>Hiddenfunstuff: don't know, but diesel is finite so it will end (and hopefully sooner rather than later)
17:22<drac_boy>heh hiddenfunstuff, funny .. I have always liked these Dv** locomotives .. partially because they remind me of my favourite "all-purpose" Alco RS that used to be around here
17:22<Hiddenfunstuff>its like with any machinery these days.. the build quality, material quality is worse
17:23<drac_boy>I dunno if the Dv** ever carried steam heat boilers in the short nose tho did they? (because that would have matched what the Alco RS did for older passenger trains back then)
17:23<Hiddenfunstuff>drac_boy wouldnt be suprised if they took some inspiration there.. ordered couple prototypes from soviet union.. run them and improved them for next 30 years
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: hydrogen is also finite
17:23<Hiddenfunstuff>for what that steam boilers were used for? starting the main engine?
17:23<drac_boy>heh actually ... there were some Alco RSD (I dunno what the 'D' stuffix additional could had meant) ordered for russia lines before
17:24<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff, no .. steam heating during the winter (before electric heating existed) :)
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>(whereby i mean the hydrogen in the sun's core)
17:24<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: though the hydrogen "power" cycle is much shorter than the one for diesel, so reuse of previously used hydrogen is significantly easier
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17:25<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: bavaria had electric heating in 1911
17:25<Hiddenfunstuff>Well these had the main engine (72L V16) coupled to large generator.. then a smaller 14l litre straight 6 starter engine which took care of compressing air for the pneumatic starter of the main engine
17:25<Hiddenfunstuff>as well as took care of the standby power and heating of the main engine
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17:26<Hiddenfunstuff>Starting sequence obviously went by getting the starter engine running somehow.. then let it collect air and preheat the heavy fuel oil for the main engine, as well as heat the main engine
17:26<Hiddenfunstuff>Then about 15 mins later you started the main engine
17:26<Hiddenfunstuff>after that you turned off the starter engine and main engine took care of everything else
17:28<Hiddenfunstuff>the electric drivemotors were coupled through a 2 speed hydraulic transmission which had "freight" and "express" gears.. basically more torque, lower topspeed.. and other way
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17:49<drac_boy>sorry had to afk for a bit re making supper but anyhow hiddenfunstuff I can't find what I wanted (so easy to find in my magazine but so hard to find online, seem to be a reccuring pattern sometimes) but heres something similar tho...
17:50<Hiddenfunstuff>But yes.. reliability is an issue with modern machinery
17:50<drac_boy> that big dark gold vertical can near middle? thats actually a steam boiler for re steam heating (as thats what most trains were back then when this was built)
17:50<Hiddenfunstuff>can be noticed with light vehicles aswell
17:50<drac_boy>the Alco RS often had a small one under the short hood (and so did many emd GP7/GP9 ordered for passenger works too)
17:51<drac_boy>but anyhow back to this: I was just kinda curious if the Dv series had steam heat as well or the trains over there hadn't needed that
17:51<Hiddenfunstuff>well dv had electrical heating and the first prototype models where the main engine and starter engine shared the same cooling water
17:52<drac_boy>ah ok just had to ask
17:52<Hiddenfunstuff>So once you got the starter engine started by some way.. either force injection, or starter ether (hhnnnngh)
17:52<Hiddenfunstuff>and eventually once the engine warmed up it started to warm up the larger one aswell
17:52<drac_boy>btw hiddenfunstuff when amtrak took over most individual passenger services you'll be surprised at how much of the "older stuff" still had to be steam heated
17:53<Hiddenfunstuff>its not that absurd concept
17:53<drac_boy>it was only the commuter railroads (short-haul basically) that had electric early on tho
17:53<Hiddenfunstuff>Before the newer passenger coaches.. each carriage had a small wood/coal boiler in a water loop
17:54<Hiddenfunstuff>newer carriages require 2500v electricity for heating
17:55<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff there is one other thing tho .. would you imagine bilevel behind steam? that did happen on C&NW (aka the original first generation Budd bilevel coaches) for a few years before the emd diesel orders arrived
17:55<Hiddenfunstuff>Hmm yeah.. did they run hot steam in the heating pipes or heated water?
17:55<Hiddenfunstuff>or how did they get the hot steam/water upstairs?
17:56<drac_boy>not sure, someone would have to find the specs for these coaches to check
17:56<Hiddenfunstuff>They couldnt been electric heating since the steam engine doesnt rely on electricity nor does it produce it
17:56<drac_boy>(unrelated note but if you want to imagine a steam locomotive hauling containers then yes that did really exist in japan fyi)
17:56<Hiddenfunstuff>So either there must've been generator car for the heating or then they used some sort of boilers on each car
17:57<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff I do know that some of the later bilevel coaches had part of the lower level reserved for genset supplies (basically a self-climated train that even a freight diesel locomotive could haul)
17:58<Hiddenfunstuff>Generator car is required on the long distance overnight train that goes +1000km north powered by a dv12.. it cannot put out enough power for heating and utility power for the coaches
17:59<Hiddenfunstuff>12 car passenger with sleeping cars, usually 2 vehicle carriages in the back.. of with block heater capability for the cars loaded in it
18:01<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff heh yeah I could imagine that. btw photos are hard to find but there were some instances in usa where eg theres two unrelated locomotives on a train .. eg an Emd E9 just to provide the headend power alone and an Alco Century providing the traction power alone
18:01<drac_boy>yeah .. the E9 would have been too slow to even get the train up to much speed if much of its engine was driven to the HEP circuit hence the unusual duo :)
18:03<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff btw I guess it could come down to different operations in history but usa never really had any sort of electric genset wagons (as it was always assumed this was on the locomotive itself) ...
18:03<drac_boy>although you would find some converted boxcar/etc gensets for tourist train purposes nowaday
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>some east german cars had generators mounted to the wheels, to provide heating even if the engine can't
18:04<sim-al2>Amtrak built a few HEP cars early on, those had Detroit Diesel generators in them; they were often built from old RPO/express cars
18:05<Hiddenfunstuff>Some of the older express cars had generators mounted to the axles aswell
18:05<drac_boy>sim-a12 ah ok didn't think amtrak actually had these but cheers
18:05<Hiddenfunstuff>They mostly powered lighting and low voltage stuff
18:05<sim-al2>Most of the world's passenger cars had axle generators, charging the car batteries to provide lights and ventilation
18:05<Hiddenfunstuff> dv12, then a gen-car (red-white)
18:06<sim-al2>Sometimes they even powered air conditioning, but those put systems put a heavy load on the batteries
18:06<drac_boy>sim-a12 yeah electric lights were a low load that was easy to get from axle generator-battery setup
18:07<sim-al2>Much safer than kerosene lamps too :)
18:07<drac_boy>brb re food sorry
18:07<Hiddenfunstuff>The most hilarious thing in the gen-cars here.. They have seats outside it
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>air condition was not really a thing in germany until the 1990s
18:07<Hiddenfunstuff>Theres nearly half of the car lenght's of seats inside.. the generator and batteries taking up the other half
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>you can notice cars with air conditioning by the fact that the windows don't open
18:08<sim-al2>In the US, certain long-distance trains had them early on, starting with ice block systems around the 1930's (requires ice houses along the line), then steam-expansion systems
18:09<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: of course they don't open, else people would open them and complain that refrigeration doesn't work
18:09<sim-al2>There were ice houses because the long-distance food/produce trains needed them, as mechanical refrigerators were very primitive
18:10<sim-al2>Yes, I've seen that many recent trains actually have reintroduced opening windows (but only a few), as there have been some incidients where the power failed and passengers overheated
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>glx: but if there were a way to open them, they wouldn't be death traps beyond 42°C outside temperature
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>the necessity for non-opening windows comes from pressurization for high-speed tunnels
18:12<Hiddenfunstuff>shouldnt there be some manual vents that you could open up?
18:12<sim-al2>At some point in the 1950's cars with mechanical air conditioning powered by the batteries appeared, but I suppose the batteries must have been difficult because modern systems almost always use some kind of train-lined power
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea
18:13<sim-al2>It seems lots of regular, non-sealed cars lost their opening windows too, but they are reappearing
18:14<Hiddenfunstuff>Atleast here the new cars have air conditioning (obviously) That takes its power directly from the train's 1500v service output.. But there is gravitational ventilation when the cars are unplugged
18:15<Hiddenfunstuff>Which is quite noticeable when you sit in a car packed with passenger and the train runs to the other end of the carriages or disconnects for a moment from the cars.. the A/C stops and after about 5 mins itse quite hot and thick air inside
18:18<drac_boy>sim-a12 part of the problem with kerosene was the fully-wood-bodied wagons :)
18:18<sim-al2>The difference in the train-line power is interesting too, Europe using 1500 V AC/DC or 3000 V DC, the British 1000 V AC/DC
18:19<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah.. 1500V i rememberd wrong earlier sayingh 2500V or something.. the driveline for the electric trains is 25,000V
18:19<drac_boy>I recall that steel trains were eventually to be standard but the war caused a lot of old coaches to be pressed back into service tho (and this was where some of the rail deaths during ww I/II happened)
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>Hiddenfunstuff: they practically never run engines to the other end anymore here
18:19<sim-al2>US: 480V Three-phase AC, but GO Transit in Canada uses 575(?) V three-phase
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>Hiddenfunstuff: almost all trains run with a cab at the end. or sometimes two engines.
18:20<Hiddenfunstuff>here the engines are still engines and cars are cars
18:20<drac_boy>sim-a12 might be 575V due to the heavier loads needed (especially re 10+ wagons long too)
18:20<sim-al2>Drac: I think that;s the explanation, but Amtrak runs longer trains on 480
18:20<Hiddenfunstuff>are N-A using 480/575V for the heating while europe uses 1500 or 3000?
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>there were instances of two engines with one single car inbetween
18:20<drac_boy>I just know that some of the rush hour GO trains seem to have 2 locomotives (either top&tail or doublehead at one end)
18:21<Hiddenfunstuff>is that the heating line or what?
18:21<sim-al2>Three-phase though, which has different power characteristics
18:21<drac_boy>sim-a12 well...I think its because amtrak doesn't have to deal with the doors being opened every 20-50 minutes?
18:21<sim-al2>It's power for everything, AC, heating, power outlets, battery charging, etc
18:21<Hiddenfunstuff>Oh righty
18:22<sim-al2>Some Amtrak trains are like that, but most long distances probably not less than an hour or so
18:22<Hiddenfunstuff>Because our trains use 2 electrics.. theres standard 450v for standby-low power that is available everywhere as 3 phase
18:22<Hiddenfunstuff>Then theres the 1500V that comes directly from gen-car or engine
18:23<sim-al2>The only real problem with three-phase is that in practice only one unit can supply power, at least reliably
18:23<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh yeah thats one of the few reasons I somehow have always preferred dc networks but to our own :)
18:23<sim-al2>Systems to "syncronize" the output of multiple engines seem to have a lot of trouble here
18:24<sim-al2>The solution so far is to allow the units to provide more power. :) 800kw for Amtrak's modern diesels, and 1000kw for the new electrics
18:25<drac_boy>oh that reminds me of another thing hiddenfunstuff the one funny thing about old high quality versus new "modern" quality is .. cause a small brownout in the overhead wire at a junction and get a little popcorn bowl and watch :)
18:26<drac_boy>the old straight-power unit would just slow down a bit but keep going while the new one's computer would literally shut down the traction power
18:27<Hiddenfunstuff>Or in best case the first computers in line would've been fried
18:27<drac_boy>yeah that was their reasoning apparently ^
18:27<sim-al2>Generally, the old units use more power and need extra maintenace attention, and more importantly the manufactuers (mostly) can fix the problems
18:27<drac_boy>but still, you would think they would bother using wide-input components for that kind of case then you know?
18:29<drac_boy>at least interestingly some of the smaller emu (or at least as I have found) could be eg built just for 3000VDC operation but they would still run 'ok' on a 1500V line tho (even although this wasn't designed for)
18:29<Hiddenfunstuff>At one point the dv12s electricity was used in cabin heating and lighting along with primitive train-tracking system
18:29<drac_boy>so some of the modern computers are not too bad after all
18:29<Hiddenfunstuff>Speed control and other stuff like that were pneumatically controlled
18:30<Hiddenfunstuff>Which made funny throttle lever since it had nearly 1 second lag in it
18:30<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff, heh some of the early usa locomotives had air-operated throttle which had their own interesting individual characters
18:30<sim-al2>I think that's how they got 1500 VDC capibility for the ES64U4, they built a system that could use 3000 VDC well, and just kinda.... run it off 1500 VDC with current limiters
18:31<sim-al2>(the power output on 1500 VDC is much lower than the other systems)
18:31<drac_boy>an Emd SW1200 with air throttle .. well .. lets just say sometimes you could make the throttle almost get a bit too ahead of the actual engine itself :)
18:31<Hiddenfunstuff>And if your throttle didnt work... you could've always opened up the engine hatches and manually move the governor inside
18:31<drac_boy>oh sim-a12 I know a photo you may like one sec..
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18:33<drac_boy>sim-a12 I believe they finally either rerouted the train or added poles (I can't recall, someone from uk should know more) so this kind of photos is now historic but .. can you note anything unusual?
18:33<Hiddenfunstuff>is that an electric or a diesel?
18:34<sim-al2>Eurostar, basically a TGV for the British loading gauge
18:34<Hiddenfunstuff>the engine looks dirty enough that there could be exhaust somewhere on the top.. But that cutout in the back looks like a spot for pantograph
18:34<sim-al2>It has/(had) 3rd rail 750VDC capibility
18:35<Hiddenfunstuff>So it could've basically ran in subway tunnels
18:35<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff, its electric 3rd rail (but I believe now its purely 100% overhead routings tho)
18:35<drac_boy>thats why I asked for someone from uk as I can't recall whether it was due to rerouting or re new poles being added
18:35<sim-al2>Until the British built High Speed 1 to St. Pancras, it ran off the third rail to London Waterloo station
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18:36<drac_boy>ah so it was rerouted? thanks, I'll have to try remember that anyhow :)
18:36<drac_boy>still a bit weird to see the eurostar with no wires visible :)
18:36<sim-al2>I don't know about subway tunnels, the Britsh subway (the Underground) is much, much smaller in loading gauge, especially deep-level tubes
18:36<Hiddenfunstuff>I never kinda understood the practicality of the 3rd rails other than in places where overhead is dangerous or no space for it (tunnels)
18:37<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff for short-distance low voltage it was the easiest way to go with doing it (assuming you don't got road crossings, although japan seem to have worked out the kink with that tho)
18:37<sim-al2>Here's a deep-level tube:
18:37<drac_boy>keep in mind 3rd rail usually was exactly the same voltage the traction motor used (so that explains some trainsets having light chassis weight as noone needed transformers)
18:37<sim-al2>Also note the 4th rail system the Underground uses
18:38<drac_boy>sim-a12 didn't london use that unusual system because they combined a positive and a negative voltages together to get a higher total capacity?
18:39<sim-al2>No, the voltages are around 600 VDC total, but one rail is positive and the other negative, as it was feared that regular 3rd rail (postive 600) would corrode the cast iron tubes used
18:39<drac_boy>oh..I see
18:39<sim-al2>Those trains can run on regular 3rd rail with some minor adjustments
18:40<drac_boy>btw sim-a12 I may not know much about the LUL but I've actually read a bit about the glasgow (I hope I got city name right from memory) system .. a rather unusual one where it was a completely circular line that initially was winch line worked before they retrofitted electric power instead
18:40<sim-al2>The issue with DC power is that until fairly recently, there was no way to adjust voltages like you can with an AC transformer
18:41<drac_boy>these bright orange trains that runs on the glasgow circle is quite something too
18:41<sim-al2>Thus, the highest sytem voltages being around 3300 VDC
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18:42<sim-al2>Traction motor insulation being the biggest impediment, as insulation for 3300 VDC seems to have been the highest avaliable before AC systems became dominant
18:42*drac_boy still can't recall right now if there was any kind of service shed on that line or they are still using a overhead crane hoist to add/remove trains from the circle
18:42<sim-al2>The line between Waterloo and Bank needs to use cranes to get trains in and out
18:43<sim-al2>All the other lines have portions, if not most of the line above ground
18:43<drac_boy>I still wonder how the winch thing worked on that glasgow circle anyway :)
18:44<sim-al2>There's actualy two systems in one, deep-level with the small trains and subsurface that are larger, close in size to the regular UK trains
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>i found a picture 2 engines+1 wagon:
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>(this was, however, an emergency solution, not the actually intended train length :p)
18:45<sim-al2>Must be the express :p
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18:48<drac_boy>btw hiddenfunstuff there was at least one or two points in uk where a train service uses both overhead and 3rd rail due to network differences
18:48<drac_boy>I forgot now but I believe it was Class 3** or something like that
18:49<drac_boy>tunnel height restriction was one of the purposes the 3rd rail still existed for too I think...someone correct me if thats wrong
18:50<FLHerne>drac_boy: 313, 319
18:50<sim-al2>Several EMUs have dual capability now, 313 being he first
18:50<FLHerne>Also basically everything modern is at least capable of it
18:50<drac_boy>ah thanks flherne
18:50<FLHerne>377/2, 387 use it in regular service
18:51<drac_boy>yeah I recall now there was the amusing story of a driver forgetting to lower the pantographs on a 313 at least once ... cue the pans scraping into the tunnel ceiling
18:51<sim-al2>The Electrostar and the Desiro families especially have the fittings necessary to install all the equipment
18:51<drac_boy>can you say ops? :)
18:51<FLHerne>350s have had their 3rd-rail shoes removed, all other 377s and 444s/450s/458s have pantograph wells and spaces for transformers that haven't been fitted
18:52<Hiddenfunstuff>Didnt even london underground have steam/diesels in them before electricity?
18:52<drac_boy>sim-a12 funny thing is I still remember the electrostar in ukrs grf .. its too bad that IS2.5 for some reason never got rolled into the official build :-/
18:52<Hiddenfunstuff>just thinking the amount of smoke and steam in the tunnels even with some sort of ventilation
18:52<sim-al2>They had steam, the tunnels had openings in the roof to provide some ventilation
18:52<drac_boy>would had made a good reason for the emu if say company1 only had 3rd rail and company2 couldn't be bothered providing 3rd rail
18:53<sim-al2>There were plans to build more as the situation was becoming dangerous, but the vents were stopped by NIMBYs, and in any case electric trains arrived eventuallt
18:53<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff the 'old' tubes were a bit deeper (aside to the extra ventilations) compared to the newer electric-from-start tubes that didn't exactly have a lot of ventilations (other than for climate purpose)
18:54<Hiddenfunstuff>Well yeah.. I'v seen how the trains and the tunnel walls are quite snug fit
18:54<sim-al2>The problem is dual electrifcation, especially with AC and DC, creates induced currents in both systems, so it is avoided as much as possible
18:55<drac_boy>btw hiddenfunstuff there was this special run a while ago
18:55<drac_boy>(don't mind the historic-dressed passengers! heh)
18:55<drac_boy>that thing was also banked by an almost-equally-vintage electric tube locomotive on the tail (just to be able to keep to the timetable if needed)
18:56<sim-al2>I think the steam locomotives were also supposed to use "smokeless" fuel ( coke I believe), that helped keep the pollution down
18:56<Hiddenfunstuff>well that seems quite light smoke in the tunnel
18:56<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff btw you see that not-so-red wagon right behind the locomotive? that was specially converted to act as an additional water supply for this run fyi
18:57<drac_boy>it used to be a goods/parcel van I think .. someone else would have to check
18:57<Hiddenfunstuff>the tiny engine didnt have big reservoir for water?
18:57<drac_boy>sim-a12 .. coke coal and there was also condensing gears (sometimes worked well, sometimes not .. guess it depends on who built it and the engineer's skill)
18:58<drac_boy>hiddenfunstuff I believe they did it for safety reason (and re to run a long time away from the primary shed too)
18:58<drac_boy>that little box ahead of the cab is pretty much all the water supply the locomotive itself had :)
19:01<sim-al2>I assume they used tank locomotives because those can run backwards without being turned, but suffer from smaller capacities
19:02<Hiddenfunstuff>Shunting with a heavy freight locomotive might be difficult..
19:02<drac_boy>sim-a12 actually it depends...
19:02<sim-al2>It's done around the world now, but a tender steam locomotive usually can not reverse very quickly as the tender derails easily
19:03<drac_boy>some tank locomotives had full-length water tanks (or combining it with saddle tank)
19:03<drac_boy>so they could carry quite a lot of water which only left the coal fuel as the limit factor (unless some of the coal was stored ahead of the cab too)
19:05<drac_boy>this one stops a bit short of where the front boiler assembly is but it gives you an idea tho
19:07<sim-al2>Some tanks had water storage between the frame rails too, I guess that one is extended range :)
19:09<FLHerne>sim-al2: Very few well-tanks in the UK, only the Beattie and Adams ones after the early 20th century?
19:10<sim-al2>I wish I knew, it seems the UK had a love of side-tank designs while other countries seem to have wells or even saddles instead
19:10<FLHerne>Very cute little things :-)
19:11<sim-al2>And then you have the question of whether a Shay type is a tender locomotive:
19:13<FLHerne>The tanks are on the same frame as the boiler, so it isn't :P
19:15<FLHerne>Now, Garratts are less obvious
19:15<drac_boy>sim-a12 I never understood uk's weird thing with 0-4-2 and 2-4-0 using the exact same chassis that could fit a 0-6-0 drive!
19:16<FLHerne>The water tank isn't on the same frame as the boiler, but the boiler doesn't have any of its own wheels
19:16<drac_boy>flherne .. shays as a 2-truck one were indeed a bit like tank locomotives .. not too sure how a 3-truck shay would be called tho
19:17<FLHerne>I'd still say no
19:18<drac_boy>and mallets were often the tank type too ;)
19:18<drac_boy>(well at least outside usa and some heavy lines)
19:19<FLHerne>If anything's supporting the weight of both the boiler and the water tank, I'd still not call it a tender loco
19:20<drac_boy>flherne then why *is* there a tender box?
19:20<drac_boy>heck what about the Erie Triplex which still had powered drivers under the tender chassis itself? :)
19:20<sim-al2>And the locomotives with booster trucks for starting
19:21<drac_boy>sim-a12 ah well boosters is a different matter from always-in-use fullsize pistons
19:21<FLHerne>tender: "ship that usually provides supplies to other ships [syn: {supply ship}]"
19:21<FLHerne>I'd guess trains stole the terminology from boats as usual
19:22<FLHerne>So "other" is important, I'd say if the tank's resting on the same wheels as the boiler it isn't a separate entity
19:22<drac_boy>flherne .. heh well the box is supplying water/coal to a firebox thats not sitting in the same chassis
19:23<drac_boy>so technically it still does deserve 'tender'
19:23<sim-al2>Some locomotives ( ) have rigid frames but the water tank has its own wheels
19:23<FLHerne>That was about the mallet/shay/garratt thing, not sure about the triplex
19:23<drac_boy>btw if anyone here wanted to know this is a similar copy of the strange Triplex
19:23<drac_boy>they failed mainly due to lack of sufficent steam pressure
19:24<drac_boy>(also I dunno how having two LP pistons feed one HP piston really worked in theory too)
19:25<sim-al2>It think it's HP feeding LP
19:25<FLHerne>Aw, I'd forgotten how cute Adams tanks are
19:25<sim-al2>Like a Mallet, the LP cylinders are larger to compensate for the reduced pressure
19:26<drac_boy>sim-a12 the problem is that its usually a 1:1 ratio .. the triplex messed up that ratio
19:27<drac_boy>either way I almost forgot (since we're onto mallets atm) heres one you don't see often .. thankfully santa fe saw a good boiler they had (even as much as the drives were not) so theirs got rebuilt into more conventional non-mallet locomotives and lasted a long time that way instead
19:27<sim-al2>Ok, so on the Triplex the center cylinders are HP, and the front and rear LP, and the HP cylinders are large enough for each to supply to two LP cylinders
19:28<drac_boy>I think the rebuild were (not surprisingly) just 2-10-2's ... will have to find
19:29<drac_boy>btw sorry about having to end a long interesting mix of subjects but I'm going off for a bit now .. maybe talk again about something next time ok? :)
19:30<sim-al2>Ok bye
19:30<drac_boy>bye :)
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19:32<sim-al2>Shays are especially interesting because they came in every size:
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