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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-11-29

---Logopened Sun Nov 29 00:00:55 2015
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03:10<andythenorth>o/
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03:16<andythenorth>hi hi Alberth
03:17<@Alberth>moin
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05:28<Wolf01>o/
05:37<@Alberth>moin
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06:19<norro>Hey guys! I just discovered autorenew as a feature (currenty at version 1.3.3). however, while it is working great for trains and road vehicles, it seems to fail for ships and planes. no matter how often I send them to maintenance, they keep getting older. any idea?
06:20<Wolf01>upgrade to 1.5.2
06:21<norro>oh. so it's a bug in 1.3.3?
06:21<Wolf01>i don't know, but if it is, this is the only way to get rid of it
06:23<norro>I see. The openttd wiki doesn't say anything about ships and planes, the example is always trains. so I was wondering if this feature is available for ships and planes at all.
06:23<norro>but then I will try upgrading. thx
06:23<Taede>should be equal for all vehicle types afaik
06:29<@Terkhen>Good morning
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06:34<norro>good morning
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06:34<norro>Wolf01: that worked, thx! had to do the autorenew config again but now everything is renewing as intended
06:34<norro>(with 1.5.2)
06:36<Wolf01>it's useless to stay with a really old version if it doesn't have a valid reason, new version always have bug fixed, more features, new bugs
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07:24<norro>Wolf01: well, you have a point, but 1.3.3 is the version that is currently shipped with ubuntu LTS (14.04). so unless there is a good reason against it, I like to keep the system defaults to keep it simple
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07:31<Eddi|zuHause>there is no good reason to have ubuntu LTS... and also no good reason for ubuntu LTS to have that version
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08:24<@planetmaker>norro, you can simply download openttd, unpack it in a folder in your home dir and play - without any installation. thus you can keep your system at default w/o problem and run openttd in whatever version you want
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09:06<drac_boy>hi
09:11<drac_boy>so anyway about my question yesterday I think I finally found my answer .. it would had been eg called either a 0-6-0ST+T or 0-6-0T+T ...not too unusual classification if not a bit rare to be used
09:31<drac_boy>oh and flherne I'm not sure if its marine in origin or not but I think both 'embark' and 'board' used to start with ships and later was also used for rails too
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09:47*drac_boy hands sim-a12 some kevlar-lined gloves and point you to the chopped wood to toss into that firebox there :P
09:47<drac_boy>hehehe :)
09:47<drac_boy>how're you anyway?
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10:18<TrueBrain>andythenorth: can I complain to you that eints has the same color for links as non-links?
10:18<TrueBrain>there is no visual indication I can click on certain texts :P
10:19<andythenorth>sounds rubbish
10:20<andythenorth>links aren’t blue for you?
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10:21<TrueBrain>if I go to a string
10:21<TrueBrain>the project text is a link
10:21<TrueBrain>the language code is a link (nl_NL)
10:21<TrueBrain>but "Edit String" is not
10:21<TrueBrain>so it took me a while to notice the other two were a link
10:21<TrueBrain>as there is no visual indication they are
10:23<drac_boy>is this website or some local html file?
10:24*andythenorth checking, but ‘access denied’ :P
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10:28<andythenorth>oh yeah, bootstrap over-rides link colours in h1, probably
10:28<andythenorth>unless I did that :P
10:28<sim-al2>drac: I'm slightly prefering oil-firing now
10:28<TrueBrain>andythenorth: ghehe :D
10:28<andythenorth>‘headings that are also links’ bug me in all the apps I build
10:28<andythenorth>never found a good solution
10:30<TrueBrain>2 solutions: 1) dont do it (ghehehe)
10:30<TrueBrain>2) make a nice icon
10:30<TrueBrain>I found both work equally well
10:30<TrueBrain>I guess my main issue with eints and links in headers is, that it is not consistent
10:30<TrueBrain>if I go to a project, the header is not a link
10:31<TrueBrain>if I go to a language, the same header, looking EXACTLY the same, is a link
10:31<TrueBrain>I have no visual feedback that happened
10:31<andythenorth>I am thinking header is not a link
10:31<TrueBrain>(not trying to be rude; really loving eints :D Just this stood out to me ;))
10:31<andythenorth>and make an explicit text link
10:31<andythenorth>yeah it bothered me for a long time
10:31<TrueBrain>the other one that stands out to me, that the order is: unknown, correct, outdated, invalid, missing
10:32<TrueBrain>I would do: unknown, outdated, invalid, missing, correct
10:32<TrueBrain>as the correct are the least important ;)
10:32<TrueBrain>even: unknown, invalid, outdated, missing, correct
10:32<TrueBrain>as invalid is worse than outdated :D
10:35<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh ok, always prefer coal (or sometimes wood on smaller things) myself but to our own
10:37<drac_boy>sim-a12 oil sometimes makes me think of these ;) http://www.calclassic.com/alco/photos/cnw1667.jpg
10:39<sim-al2>Close, some of the gas turbines burned the same heavy oil that the steamers did, but that fuel became more expensive when the plastics industry became big in the 1960's
10:59<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh well it still shows the truth behind the unofficial saying "alcos that thinks they're steam locomotives" :)
10:59<drac_boy>worser tho of course is the lack-of-maintenance alco units in india/etc .. these REALLY smoke badly
11:01<drac_boy>this isn't full throttle yet but it does show you what I mean about maintenance tho http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2645/3826744366_04308b0edc.jpg
11:04<drac_boy>btw about gas turbine .. that was one of the few primary reasons for the up turbine .. at the time the refineries had little idea what to do with "bunker c" (as it was called) oil ... so up got this fuel for very cheap
11:06<drac_boy>but of course later the diesel hp got better (probably partially thanks to SP's stubborn play on buying the german units to prove it) on top of bunker c being found use for causing price to go up .. that kinda impacted the up turbine's value
11:11<sim-al2>I've seen some suggestions that Russian diesel refining is not as pure as western standards, and that is supposedly why Russian locomotives are particularly strong smokers
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11:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh well...a lot of the earlier multi-unit diesels had 2-stroke as well
11:14<drac_boy>that partially explains some of the heavy russia smokes :)
11:15<sim-al2>Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston two-stroke engines no less (not licensed of course)
11:16<drac_boy>heh tbh FM locomotives were interesting (and some with their own unique features) that its kinda too bad not a lot of them survived :-s ... even canada did have some of the carbody opposited-piston's too
11:18<drac_boy>(also worth mentioning that the FM TrainMaster was 2400hp which was quite ahead of anyone else, but orders were somewhat limited .. funny enough SP apparently had to buy some of them too)
11:18<sim-al2>Although the Kolomna works has developed their own engines now, the 2-stroke 14D40 of the 60's (notorious for its smoke, and oil and fuel consumption), and the more modern engines used in the "Ludmilla" locomotives for East Germany and the TE70 freight locomotives that power many Russian/CIS trains
11:19<drac_boy>as I recall it was "heavier train at faster speed" slogan which was a big thing back then
11:20<sim-al2>The real interesting part is that the engine design was not that different from their submarine engines
11:20<drac_boy>sim-a12 I believe even the Deltic was borrowing a marine design as to find further purposes for the engine license :)
11:21<sim-al2>The Deltic engine was used in a small number of fast patrol craft for many years
11:22<drac_boy>its still sometimes hard to think that they got 3000hp out of a locomotive (the Deltic itself) thats much lighter than a "conventional" 2000hp one
11:23<drac_boy>but hey it worked well for them for some time :)
11:24<sim-al2>Two high speed engines vs a large medium speed of lowish output (the Class 40 engine was rated at 2000hp, but the very similar engine in the Class 50 put out 2700hp)
11:26<drac_boy>ah about russia that reminds me sim-a12 I don't know if you knew of it yet but what do you think of the GT-1 in russia? I mean I still am curious what kind of exhaust muffling system they use (given the very high temperatures) as I don't think its a straight pipe for health reasons
11:26<sim-al2>The DF200 is an interesting engine: 3400/3600 hp diesel that weighes 96t ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR_Freight_Class_DF200 )
11:28<sim-al2>the GT-1 is pretty cool, but I don't see it becoming a dominant type because it doesn't seem to have the technology to overcome the efficiency problems
11:28<drac_boy>sim-a12 well the efficiency isn't as that bad in russia as it could had been elsewhere.. russia really has a lot of nonstop-for-a-long-time freight train so the turbine is a bit easier to fit in
11:29<drac_boy>but hmm yeah I still wonder why there doesn't seem to be a visible small non-traction genset engine for if it had to stop for a long time somewhere (or I'm just looking at pre-productions photos)
11:29<sim-al2>It should be great for heavy freight, if kept well loaded it should be very efficient, but not all freight can be run that way
11:30<sim-al2>Apparently Russia has a history of gas-turbine types too: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7
11:30<sim-al2>(damn IRC client, I hope that comes out right)
11:31<sim-al2>What's rather interesting is that one section of the locomotive is essentianlly a large gas cylinder
11:31<@Rubidium>why wouldn't it?
11:32<drac_boy>sim-a12 its not irc .. the wiki links can be odd when using non-english characters
11:32<drac_boy>I'm looking atm tho
11:32<sim-al2>My IRC client bungles non-Latin characters quite badly
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11:33<drac_boy>btw sim-a12 I believe the big tank is due to needing to operate over long distance without requiring a very long chassis (as one would need for under-chassis slung fuel tank)
11:33<@Rubidium>also, it has nothing to do with wiki but rather with most browsers going with escape codes for non-ASCII stuff to prevent issues with different code pages and the likes
11:33<drac_boy>I think its partially due to the higher fuel useage of the turbine units
11:33<sim-al2>That's the reason, I think it's to allow a stronger construction for the tank while still having a place for more traction motors and a cab
11:33<drac_boy>oh and btw sim-a12 its nothing to do with rails (but I came across it a few days ago) ... I don't know much of the story but can I show you an interesting usa truck? :)
11:34<sim-al2>sure
11:34<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/%D0%93%D0%A21h-002.jpg
11:34<sim-al2>The pre-production model didn't have the pretty carbody over the fuel tank
11:34<drac_boy>does anything look strange to you sim-a12 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-f1z0oWVlEqE/VO-e-9seELI/AAAAAAAAA-0/_bUu1mJoaTA/s1600/kenworthboeing-1952-4.jpg :p
11:35<drac_boy>sim-a12 if you not sure I can show you a better photo that tells more of the story
11:35<sim-al2>Well not having an engine hood (or a visible engine block except for that that circular thing) seems a little... off... ;)
11:36<drac_boy>sim-a12 heh you got it right .. it was an unusual test with kenworth+boeing re a turbine powered truck .. this shows how TINY the turbine was compared to a standard piston engine http://assets.blog.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/05/KenworthBoeinggasturbinetruck_1000-700x546.jpg
11:36<drac_boy>almost could not even need any hood .. except for the few firewall-mounted accessories
11:36<sim-al2>Damn should have seen that exhaust pipe, I expected a flat engine or a electric motor
11:37<drac_boy>ah yep... hot turbine gas :)
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11:37<drac_boy>thats why they always had big exhaust anyhow :)
11:37<sim-al2>You know that saying, "What's old is new again"?
11:37<drac_boy>I imagine this kind of truck was best with a warehouse-to-warehouse non-city direct route (you know, needing very little stopping at all)
11:38<sim-al2>I see that Walmart is designing hybrid turbine-electric trucks for their warehouse runs
11:38<drac_boy>but I imagine it was more of a test than an actual road idea because I can't see how such anti-city operation could easily be done
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11:38<drac_boy>heck even some of the big warehouses are located right inside urban areas so a lot of stop and go is still required
11:39<sim-al2>I imagine in the 1950's it would be easier with emptier roads
11:39<sim-al2>Assuming they don't have to go off the highways, because then it would have been much worse
11:39<drac_boy>that perhaps is true yeah .. even then chicago still had a lot of stuff inside urban areas (would you believe that 6-floor skytowers could be only a few hundred meters away from cattle holding pens?
11:40<sim-al2>Yeah, Chicago is rather odd in terms of land-use
11:40<sim-al2>Not too many places have suburban grid-patterns with an airport in the middle of that grud
11:41<sim-al2>*grid
11:41<drac_boy>oh and about 1950's ... would you believe the pain some truck drivers have with trying to stuff a 50ft trailer into a very old brick loading bay (sitting sideway to the street) that was originally only designed for single-axle 20ft trailers from a LONG time ago?
11:41<drac_boy>their number may be small but they still exist in pretty much any urban areas
11:41<sim-al2>I suppose it's basically required for a hybrid prototype, but the Hybrid turbine trucks has some interesting styling: http://www.hybridcars.com/electrified-hybrid-turbine-powered-trucks-in-walmart-future/
11:42<sim-al2>Oh I imagine, backing a trailer into an alley barely wider than the trailer and then turning it into a loading bay... I don't know that I could do that (without hitting things)
11:44<drac_boy>sim-a12 not sure why photo is rotated but this gives you an idea and its only a small tractor instead! http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/culinarialocustaug2011.jpg
11:46<drac_boy>actually I know one exact spot in ottawa-hull that I always see various 3-axle straight body trucks using once some days .. its a pain re having to hump the front-right tire over north sidewalk then hope traffic uses some common sense and come to a stop while the poor truck backs down (street is 3 lanes wide) into a narrow but deep alley
11:49<drac_boy>anyway sim-a12 I'll let you have fun with whatever else you were doing allright? I'm going off for a bit now especially re to eat
11:49<drac_boy>:)
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13:06<andythenorth>FIRS stockyard
13:06<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#stockyard
13:06<andythenorth>only one layout, quite boring
13:06<andythenorth>should I split it into more, smaller buildings
13:06<andythenorth>?
13:08<frosch123>not enough blood
13:10<Wolf01>^
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13:25<andythenorth>more gore?
13:31<Wolf01>and zombies, people like zombies
13:33<andythenorth>anyone playing the rainfall rivers patch?
13:33<andythenorth>it looks awesome, but I haven’t tried it
13:33<Wolf01>i wanted to try it
13:33<Wolf01>but i'm a bit lazy this times
13:36*andythenorth should compile it
13:43<andythenorth>this I like http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=188300
13:46<frosch123>all screenshot i saw so far were like: ship-only.diff
13:47<frosch123>the slopes are too long/steep
13:48<frosch123>the map only consists of water tiles and slope tiles
13:48<frosch123>there is almost no non-water tile which is no slope or even steep slope
13:49<andythenorth>ah, does it flood most flat land?
13:49<andythenorth>be interesting to try that with industry placement
13:50<frosch123>no idea
13:50*andythenorth should compile it
13:50<frosch123>maybe it is only how people pick their screenshots :p
13:50<frosch123>but to me it looked like the rainfall converts all land into slopes
13:51<andythenorth>gah, it’s some patch queue thing
13:52<andythenorth>no idea how to apply that, not applying 76 patches by hand
13:53<andythenorth>either put it in a public repo, or provide a single-file patch :P
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14:23*[Franklin] reaches the apex of transportation technology
14:24<[Franklin]>no more maglevs, no more aircraft :(
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14:49<andythenorth>silly car factories
14:49<andythenorth>they’re just one huge building
14:49<andythenorth>_that_ won’t look good in ottd
14:50<Wolf01>make multiple huge buildings with laaaarge parking lots
14:51<V453000>andythenorth: make them one big belt with robots around it? :P
14:51<Wolf01>isn't that factorio?
14:51<V453000>random car factory https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/YETI/industry_3X_f0000.png
14:51<V453000>completely random
14:54<__ln__>not very realistic
14:55<V453000>pretty sure that is not the ain either
15:04<TrueBrain>whoho, eints is working for OpenTTD :D Just some very minor stuff to sort out .. finally WT3 can be replaced :D
15:05<TrueBrain>WT3 is now ... 7 years old or so? :P
15:05<TrueBrain>2009-07 it went live .. so 6 years and a bit :P
15:06<@Rubidium>doesn't that imply that the website design is even older?
15:06<TrueBrain>it does
15:06<TrueBrain>but I think it went also live around that time
15:07<TrueBrain>oldest file on disk is 2009-07
15:07<TrueBrain>not saying a lot, but it is a good guestimate
15:07<@Rubidium>that's what svn implies as well
15:09<TrueBrain>2009-07-09, the new website got checked in
15:09<TrueBrain>so yeah
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15:10<TrueBrain>but really happy with eints; very flexible, runs very well, and can take a punch
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>i have a directory called "wt 3.1" with date of 3-2012 but the files in there all seem to be from 8-2009
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15:41<TrueBrain>how did you get your hands on the WT3 source?
15:41<TrueBrain>that is something to discuss :D
15:41<TrueBrain>who leaked you that ...
15:42<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: 24-06-2009 17:45 UTC seems to be roughly the moment WT3 went live
15:43<TrueBrain>yeah .. and I am also pretty sure the new website was live before it got checked into subversion :P
15:43<TrueBrain>but yeah ... 6+ years old ..
15:43<@Rubidium>@17:43:08 a WT2 commit, @17:45:07 a WT3 commit
15:43<TrueBrain>it was a huge improvement over WT2
15:43<TrueBrain>I hope eints is also a good improvement over WT3
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i'm fairly sure i got it from you :p
15:55<TrueBrain>dammit; I am the worst :D
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>we might have had a discussion on how to extend it to other games
15:56<TrueBrain>ghehe :)
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>the 2012 date may have been when i moved my ~ to another disk
16:02<frosch123>TrueBrain: https://web.archive.org/web/20080512002756/http://www.openttd.org/ <- don't you miss it?
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16:02<TrueBrain>hehehehe
16:02<TrueBrain>I am surprised the current site doesn't like 6+ years old
16:08<frosch123>well, the silliest part of the homepage is still "Latest User Screenshot of $(current stable)" :)
16:09<TrueBrain>:D:D:D:D
16:09<TrueBrain>its always true!!
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's never true
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>and it shows the thumbnail of one of the oldest screenshots
16:09<TrueBrain>its a static image, yes :)
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16:18<drac_boy>hi
16:18*drac_boy gives sim-a12 ten litres of kerosene :)
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16:37<drac_boy>either way anyone else here a bit interested in some kind of train subject?
16:46<TrueBrain>what a weird place to come to to find peopple who are interested in trains
16:46<Zuu>Talking of screenshot, apparently we didn't upload any 1.5 screenshot yet.
16:46*drac_boy thinks truebrain forgot what channel he was in :)
16:46<TrueBrain>Zuu: so get to work already :D >:D
16:47<Zuu>hehe. IIRC I did 1.3 and 1.4 at the same time. I learn't that it is the last uploaded directory that shows at the top. Not sorted by name, version number or so.
16:48<TrueBrain>indeed :)
16:48<TrueBrain>touch is your friend there :)
16:48<Zuu>:-)
16:48<TrueBrain>I believe 0.6 and 0.7 are always in the wrong order
16:52<Zuu>Screenshots will be another day. Requires figuring out what in 1.5 to highlight and producing the screenshots. Now I'm off to bed.
16:52<drac_boy>bye zuu :)
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19:09<Wolf01>'night
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19:48<drac_boy>hi
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20:07<drac_boy>btw heres something you may have never heard of before :) http://www.familygardentrains.com/primer/prototype/articulateds/erie_camelback.jpg
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think i was perfectly fine never hearing about that...
20:12<drac_boy>heh, well I'm not too surprised. also re that it seem to had been specifically an usa-only thing (seeing that even some uk locomotives did run on anthracite coal but still retained a standard cab)
20:18<drac_boy>oh yeah eddi sorry about my memory but in the middle of the long chat earlier on you mentioned about some country having all-electric coaches in 1911 .. which country did you mentioned again?
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>bavaria
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20:21<Eddi|zuHause>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_EP_1
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>it says the engine has electric heating, but doesn't say which wagons went with it. i'm assuming they had some :p
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20:28<drac_boy>bavaria sure had a lot of interesting things (and now I have to add early electric-heated coaches to that too heh)
20:28<drac_boy>:)
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>bavaria always has to do things differently from everybody else...
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20:32<drac_boy>well the S3/6 is one of my favorites from bavaria steam era :)
20:33<drac_boy>although about 'differently' I do have to so agree when I look at...umm....THIS again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_MCi
20:33<drac_boy>its almost like a tram locomotive smushed into a coach that had another level welded onto it (it doesn't look so one-piece)
20:34<drac_boy>(and yeah I know...who put the boiler in sideway? hehe)
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's particularly rare for this kind of vehicle
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather ask myself who found it fit to build a model of that :p
20:43<drac_boy>heh
20:44<drac_boy>well at least tri-level only exists in fantasy and maybe its better off left that way ;) (yes 'fantasy' does cover the Knight Bus thank you)
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the sideways boiler
20:45<sim-al2>I'm sure firing that must have been fun
20:45<sim-al2>Doesn't leave much room for boiler tubes either
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20:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's like 3m wide?
20:46<drac_boy>sim-a12 it depends..could be either its got very short flues with the firebox right on other side ... or some L-ish arrangement
20:46<drac_boy>if it had been a donkey engine we wouldn't be seeing the boiler frontend at all
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20:48<drac_boy>heres a bit more believable (well at least to some) doubledeck tram compliant with a donkey engine http://www.tandrag.com/images/uploads/tramloco_thumb.jpg
20:48<drac_boy>(hm..hard to tell tho..bit dark .. the search term said donkey tho)
20:49<sim-al2>The wiki page says the boiler was rated for 100hp, and the vehicle wieghes 28 tonnes...
20:50<drac_boy>this one looks like a much better photo (even if no wagon) http://www.australiansteam.com/nswind/johnbull1.jpg
20:51<drac_boy>sim-a12 well its a rather early date so I would have to say 100hp sounds about ok as thats probably just as fast if not faster than a stagecoach horse
20:54<drac_boy>even some of the sentinel/alike steam railcars were not exactly speedy (without overheating issues as some went)
20:57<drac_boy>looks like 30-40km/h is quoted for some uk examples. and the lner.info site lists that the first several sentinel railcars were listed as 100hp (same number again eh?)
21:11<drac_boy>sim-a12 if you want a big wtf moment when it comes to boilers, I present you this http://aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/tripleboiler/flaman3x.jpg
21:11<drac_boy>thats ... three boilers .. seriously :-s
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21:28<Eddi|zuHause>so they split it to fit bigger wheels?
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>almost looks like a cubistic painting with skewed perspective
21:45<drac_boy>think I'm going sleep soon, you two have fun anyhow
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 30 00:00:56 2015