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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-12-03

---Logopened Thu Dec 03 00:00:01 2015
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02:19<kamnet>Good morning to all.
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07:07<Wolf01>did you see the new technic helicopter?
07:07<andythenorth>buying any of 1H sets?
07:07<andythenorth>1st Half
07:09<Wolf01>ah, i don't know, maybe... for sure i'll buy every set with price high than 100€
07:09<andythenorth>I do that
07:09<andythenorth>dunno why, I don’t really enjoy them
07:09<andythenorth>I have the crawler in a cupboard at work, unbuilt
07:09<andythenorth>and the volvo
07:09<andythenorth>I built the big crane (B model), but don’t like it
07:10<Wolf01>i think it's because when they are off production they will get a bit pricey
07:10<andythenorth>Fear Of Missing Out
07:10<andythenorth>they’re impressive, but they’re usually too big to perform well, and you can’t leave them out around the house
07:10<andythenorth>the Unimog is in my loft, half-disassembled
07:10<andythenorth>Unimog was super disappointing imho
07:11<Wolf01>you should have purchased this then
07:12<andythenorth>silly lego, they always break deep-links to their site
07:12<andythenorth>oh yeah, we’ll buy the small Mog :)
07:12<andythenorth>the kids want it
07:13<Wolf01>i was looking for some of its pieces, maybe i'll buy 2 of them just to not have a odd number of pieces
07:14<Wolf01>yes, i'm one of those people
07:14<andythenorth>the curved pieces?
07:14<Wolf01>the blade ones, i think they could be useful in a sort of mecha
07:15<andythenorth>steering mod
07:15<Wolf01>:o nice
07:15<Wolf01>the T pieces are really useful
07:16<@peter1138>Silly Lego, using Flash for an image gallery...
07:16<andythenorth>silly Lego
07:16<andythenorth>Flash Must Die
07:16<andythenorth>Wolf01: this is current favourite in our house
07:16<Wolf01>really? i built it but i'm not really satisfied
07:16<andythenorth>kids like it, it’s bouncy
07:17<andythenorth>also this + the mining truck
07:17<Wolf01>i'll plan to convert it in a snowmobile
07:17<Wolf01>yes, that one is cool, too bad it have a scale for its own
07:18<@peter1138>I... haven't had Lego for years :S
07:18<andythenorth>easily solved
07:18<Wolf01>time to get them again
07:18<@peter1138>Can't afford it!
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>i have a large basket full of lego that hasn't been touched for like 10 years
07:19<andythenorth>probably vintage
07:19<andythenorth>sell it!
07:19<andythenorth>send it to peter1138!
07:19<andythenorth>gift economy :P
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08:22<andythenorth>scrap eints?
08:22<andythenorth>free plan for open source
08:23<@planetmaker>I looked at it some time ago. I was not really convinced that it's better in any way than what we have
08:24<@planetmaker>on the contrary. With a bit of work put around the edges of eints it would be a serious competitor
08:25<Wolf01> ahah
08:30<andythenorth>planetmaker: sell eints? o_O
08:30<andythenorth>source of revenue for OpenTTD :P
08:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth, people *did* ask us for our previous web translation tool. Not only once
08:33<@planetmaker>and eints exists to be better than WT3 :)
08:35<andythenorth>provide hosting, setup credit card billing and deployment automation :P
08:35<andythenorth>make at least $99 / month
08:35<@planetmaker>you're the business man
08:35<andythenorth>ha ha
08:35<@planetmaker>and you're one of the authors of eints
08:35<andythenorth>I just make the UI
08:35<@planetmaker>yeah. That's what the user really cares about :)
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08:42<@peter1138>Free for open source... yeah, that worked out well with Linux and BitKeeper.
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09:44<Wolf01>lalala... working on a picture gallery with the stupid home adsl... lalala
09:57<Wolf01>mmmh images have stupid names, i think is better if i ask the guy to check them before uploading all the shit
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10:56<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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11:03<Rivers>wor yea
11:22*andythenorth considers playing openttd
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12:55<andythenorth>V453000: wtf, playing?
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12:56<andythenorth>I didn’t do it
12:56<andythenorth>no GS
12:56<andythenorth>takes too long to get a good map
12:56<andythenorth>too many unfinished newgrfs which will break savegame when I fix them :P
12:57<andythenorth>I’ve painted myself into a corner
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13:32<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27465 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-12-03 19:45:08 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 5 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
14:02<@peter1138>i've got, a silver machine
14:03<frosch123>paint it black
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14:20*andythenorth must draw something
14:26<@Alberth>a square or a circle
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14:35<andythenorth>tyre plant
14:35<andythenorth>circles and squares
14:38<frosch123>make triangle, square and pentagon factories
14:38<frosch123>and then some factories that asemble them to icosahedrons and stuff
14:39<frosch123>at least vehicle grfs will know what to draw :p
14:40<frosch123>oh, you can also add a tertiary industry that takes icosahedrons or dodecahedron and processes them into footballs
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>you just cut off the corners from the icosahedron
14:40<andythenorth>abstract economy
14:41<andythenorth>I think it’s a valid idea
14:41<andythenorth>I don’t think I’d bother to make it
14:41<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but you can do the same with dodecahedrons
14:41<andythenorth>but definitely interesting gameplay
14:41<andythenorth>it’s better than ‘stuff’ which is a weak joke
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that totally escapes my imagination, and i have no physical objects to try that with :p
14:43<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: a dodecahedron has faces exactly where the icosahedron has edges
14:44<frosch123>a football is the intersection of a dodecahedron and a icosahedron
14:44<frosch123>you can cut off stuff from either of them
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>that makes sense, probably.
14:45<frosch123>i always make that mistake :)
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>that's an easy to make mistake :p
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>not our fault that the english made this horrible translation of the graph theory. :p
14:48<frosch123>andythenorth: hmm, how about mixing colours then?
14:48<frosch123>deliver cyan, magenta and yellow
14:49<frosch123>all ratios are processed
14:49<frosch123>but yuo can get completely different outputs :p
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that works as an economy :p
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14:56<andythenorth>colours might work
14:56<andythenorth>that minimetro game has shapes as sources and destinations
14:56*andythenorth however will be sticking to RL cargos :P
14:56<andythenorth>sorry, no imagination :P
14:56<frosch123>well, is it a reason to increae the number of cargos produced from 2 per industry to 256 per nidustry?
14:57<frosch123>or does it need 16M ?
14:57<andythenorth>no :(
14:57<andythenorth>please, never increase cargos accepted or produced
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and how do you want to transport that stuff?
14:58<frosch123>well, i am sorry, but with 32bit cargo labels we cannot support hdri colour cargos
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: have autorefitting wagons with 1 capacity each?
14:58*andythenorth plays a whole other meta-game, making cargo chains fit together
14:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: V can render a wagon for each colour
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: or implement "cargo bay" feature to have multiple cargos per vehicle
14:59<andythenorth>that is a worthy feature
14:59<andythenorth>which I can fake in newgrf for trains and RVs :P
15:00<andythenorth>multi-cargo ships, probably worth it
15:01*andythenorth thinks the game should stop developing though
15:01<andythenorth>it’s done
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>didn't that already happen?
15:14<V453000>btw I dont think there is a way to make CC masks use some form of anti-aliasing?
15:15<V453000>because without it they are kind of worthless - except when you use them for full sprite
15:15<V453000>for 32bpp that is
15:15<frosch123>i wondered about that, but no i did not find a method to make it work
15:15<V453000>I can admit that I am planning to make a NewGRF and I do intend to leave CC masks out
15:15<V453000>because just no
15:16<V453000>which is kind of a shame but...
15:16<frosch123>well, pikka just renders completely separate sprites :p
15:17<frosch123>works as long as the cc remain as they are
15:17<V453000>well pikka probably doesnt have that many sprites
15:17<frosch123>i.e. 16 fixed colours
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>can you make the masks 32bpp, and the transparency defines the amount of antialiasing?
15:17<V453000>ah he even has company colours influence it? okay
15:17<V453000>that would be cute Eddi|zuHause but can you? :D
15:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you would need 40 to 48 bits
15:18<frosch123>32 bits for rgba of the underlying colour
15:18<frosch123>8 bits for blending the cc
15:18<V453000>regardless, I dont want to render every vehicle x16^2 (two company colours, right? :D)
15:18<frosch123>8 bits for the cc itself
15:18<frosch123>V453000: i never liked 2cc :p
15:18<V453000>lets go 128bpp 64x EZ
15:18<V453000>I love 2cc with 8bpp
15:19<V453000>but with 32bpp just eh...
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but sprite+mask is already 40 bits?
15:19<V453000>I might postproduce my 8bpp x1 sprites by pixel pushing to make them work with CC if I feel really fucked in the head
15:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, add an alpha channel to the mask :)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so my suggestion would make it 64 bits?
15:19<frosch123>rgba + ia
15:19<V453000>but with the amount of sprites I am going to render ... probably not the best idea unless I can do it in some repeatable manner
15:20<frosch123>except that the I part never worked nicecly
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: instead of "i", make it greyscale?
15:21<frosch123>V453000: anyway, i prefer a rainbow coloured slug over a company coloured slug any day of the week :)
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>so you have potentially 3 greyscale maps for 3 different colours
15:21<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: or remove it entirely?
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>make it 3D :p
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>then you can change the colour of each face :p
15:23<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: <- anyway, already did that
15:23<V453000>haha good point frosch123 but the slugs are actually done by recolour to save sprite count as you might remember :P
15:23<frosch123>but well, starting a new game could be nice :p
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that picture has more issues than just the recolouring :p
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>but the slugs look decent enough
15:25<Flygon>I was half expecting to see a Starbug Train
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>what's that thing with the rainbow mohawk?
15:26<frosch123>the most puzzling zbase is how popular it seems to be, compared to noone having drawn the missing gui sprites in the past 3 years
15:26<frosch123>*thing about
15:26<sim-al2>How many missing sprites are there?
15:26<frosch123>in that screenshot i count 6
15:27<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: nyan cat driving a slug?
15:27<V453000>frosch123: people just want MOAR PIXULZ, doesnt matter that it looks shit
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i don't see the cat part :p
15:28<sim-al2>Oh 32bpp slugs?
15:28<frosch123>V453000: i kind of assumed you would give your vehicles some fixed livery choices, which are not single coloured like company colour, but more mad
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that does not surprise me at all, considering how many people play patchpacks with obvious and severe bugs that they instantly dismiss
15:28<V453000>sim-al2: for like 2 years already :P but np
15:28<sim-al2>Oh, must have missed them :)
15:29<V453000>frosch123: that is what the heads basically do
15:29<V453000>+ WTF CC schemes some bad person helped me get done
15:30<frosch123>well, you could give the middle parts a colour gradient from 1CC to 2CC
15:30<frosch123>and then use grf code to assign random CCs to the parts
15:30<V453000>rendering the 8bpp mask is a bit of a hell
15:30<frosch123>so you get a rainbow slug, but with a gradient
15:30<V453000>making a gradient out of it sounds wtf insane
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: only a crazy person would do that... oh, wait :p
15:31<V453000>wait when you see my current project Eddi|zuHause
15:31<frosch123>V453000: well, because of the no-blending, you would have to do the gradient by dithering 1cc and 2cc colours
15:31<frosch123>so, uhm, may still look shit :p
15:32<frosch123>i guess we need to add support for drawing 2 independen sprites per vehicle :p
15:33<V453000>I will just use colours to do something more meaningful than showing which player owns the vehicul
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>so, back to the original suggestion: 32bpp mask, where "b" and "g" get replaced by the currently selected company colour, and just drawn over the sprite?
15:34<V453000>sounds reasonable to me, the unknowledgeable fuck, Eddi|zuHause
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>and add the possibility of "r" being a 3rd colour for the cargo
15:35<V453000>and R for completely randomized colour of the sprite
15:35<V453000>ultimate Rainbow
15:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you forgot the age-degression colour remap
15:38<frosch123>and the dirt overlay
15:38<V453000>in that case we need n1 requested feature for nuts
15:39<V453000>slime trails on tracks
15:39<frosch123>or you just draw multiple sprite on top of each other, and scrap remapping
15:39<frosch123>V453000: can slugs operate with catenary?
15:39<V453000>hm, like building layers
15:40<V453000>idk, they might eat it
15:40<V453000>but their tracks dont have catenary, no
15:40<frosch123>V453000: so the slime on the tracks reduced the TE of following non-slug trains?
15:40<V453000>they built upon the technology of magnetic levitation, slime levitation
15:40<frosch123>and the slime on the catenary reduces the power of electric trains?
15:41<V453000>frosch123: there is no TE on maglev, so they just increase speed :P
15:41<frosch123>could be a reason for infra structure sharing then :p
15:41<V453000>nah just getting your network density higher ;P
15:45<Eddi|zuHause> <-- i'm probably making a fool out of myself, because i did not fact-check any of this.
15:48<frosch123>sounds about right
15:50<V453000>I should go and place some super strong argument to derail the discussion
15:50<andythenorth>what larks
15:50<frosch123>it's the fourms
15:50*andythenorth draws tyre factory
15:50<frosch123>the discussion is already derailed on the second post
15:50<andythenorth>by adapting it from slaughterhouse
15:51<V453000>time for openttd 2.0 thread mk666
15:51<V453000>nice andythenorth, accepts livestock?
15:51<andythenorth>not so much
15:51*andythenorth considers an ‘illogical’ economy
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that discussion is already derailed
15:51<andythenorth>OpenTTD 2.0? o_O
15:52<andythenorth>how about 2.0 instead of 1.6?
15:52<andythenorth>for ‘marketing reasons’ o_O
15:52<V453000>I am all for it andythenorth, finally you could focus on actualy system of the economy instead of inventing names like pyrite or nitrates XD
15:52<frosch123>i prefer 2.1
15:52<Wolf01>i would skip to openttd 10.0
15:52<andythenorth>OpenTTD X ?
15:52<V453000>just OpenTTD
15:52<V453000>modern trend
15:52<@Rubidium>or just... 16.04
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>OpenTTD LTS
15:53<andythenorth>drawing industries is too easy
15:53<andythenorth>and fun
15:53<andythenorth>maybe I should stop making vehicle sets
15:53<V453000>jesus andythenorth is pondering shit
15:53<andythenorth>I atually drew stuff
15:53<V453000>all reason goes out of the window for the rest of tonight
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: and a sack of rice fell over in china?
15:54<V453000>pics or it didnt happen :P
15:54<V453000>I dont get that Eddi|zuHause
15:54*andythenorth is eating stew
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15:55<V453000>andythenorth: I actually started modelling a new train set, you will love it
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: in german, that's a stereotypical saying about a non-news.
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: something that is so comman, that it would be totally pointless to report about
15:55<andythenorth>V453000: pics or it didn’t happen
15:55<V453000>andythenorth: noez, top secret project
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: does it involve biters?
15:56<V453000>but it is very factorio feeling in general
15:56<Wolf01>i ran over 2 biters nests today
15:57<Wolf01>they don't attack you if you run over them
15:57<V453000>with a tank?
15:57<Wolf01>yeah :D
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i believe the correct expression is "run them over"
15:58<andythenorth>potato / potato
15:58<V453000>I think military shit is banned on bananas Wolf01 :P
15:59<andythenorth>do tyre factories have smoke?
15:59<V453000>everything has smoke else not industrial enough
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>chemical smoke is terrible...
16:00<aditsu>hi, what's the expected time for an unused secondary industry to close down?
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>we used to have that here
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>then the 1990s came
16:00<frosch123>Wolf01: i was disappointed when tanks were added
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>aditsu: 5-ish years
16:01<frosch123>i expected them to be some self-driving one-way weapon, that you mass-produce and then send off to the biters on their own
16:01<frosch123>instead it became a slow vehicle you have to drive yourself
16:01<aditsu>hmm, there's a refinery that has been sitting there for hours :/
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>aditsu: also depends on settings and newgrfs
16:02<Wolf01>i really like them instead, i was disappointed on combat robots because i tought they were like the logistics ones, instead you have to build a shitload of capsules...
16:02<V453000>frosch123: all about that automation :P
16:03<aditsu>Eddi|zuHause: other things have closed down, but this one just won't die :p
16:03<@Alberth>it's teasing you :p
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>aditsu: we have the saying "tja" :p
16:03<aditsu>what's that?
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>aditsu: something like "shit happens" :p
16:04*andythenorth is grateful for faster nmlc
16:05<andythenorth>did I mention that? :P
16:05<V453000>you now compile from 2,3 seconds in 2,25?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: won't be for long until it's too slow for you again :p
16:05<V453000>which makes you not get distracted? :P
16:05<andythenorth>it’s 50 seconds
16:05<andythenorth>which is ok, as long as you have youtube, or something
16:05<V453000>omg so many seconds
16:05<aditsu>oh well, I guess I'll check it again tomorrow
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16:08<V453000>does any of you guys have information about xUSSR set causing desyncs?
16:09<V453000>we are having desyncs on our welcome server and I am kind of betting it is because of that
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16:14<frosch123>run the game with -d desync=2
16:15<frosch123>you can even do that in singleplayer
16:15<frosch123>if it reports newgrf cache mismatches, you have found the problem
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes xUSSR set has known desync issues
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>(imho, the game should get fixed)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>callback-dependent caches need to be saved, instead of recalculated on load
16:23<frosch123>as if that would fix it :p
16:23<frosch123>you also have to backup everything when doing command-test runs
16:23<frosch123>autoreplace, ...
16:23<frosch123>when calling callbacks from gui, ...
16:24<V453000>will it allow me to change power on the fly? :D
16:24<frosch123>i don't think hiding the problem from an ottd side fixes it
16:24<frosch123>esp. since it would not even do what the grf author expects
16:24<sim-al2>Did 1.5.3 release today? I see it's on the site but there's no blog message yet
16:24<frosch123>V453000: no
16:25<sim-al2>Ah ok, thank you
16:25<V453000>then it is a BAD_FEATURE
16:25<frosch123>sim-al2: do you want to write one? :)
16:25<ST2>sorry my education ^^
16:25<ST2>hi all :)
16:26<ST2>btw, not sure if the correct place to ask but here it goes: is there a script (or something) to create the windows installer?
16:26<frosch123>V453000: eddi basically suggests to make the error messages black text on black background :p
16:26<frosch123>it may desync less, but actually only hide a problem that shows in other places
16:26<V453000>nice comparison
16:27<frosch123>we could as well just remove the speed and refit cost callbacks
16:27<frosch123>no desync, and no relevanr gameplay change :p
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the game should still avoid desyncing at all costs
16:27<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: we are not php
16:27<frosch123>detect issues, don't obfuscate them
16:27<V453000>newgrf should avoid it as well
16:27<V453000>it is a cooperation
16:27<+glx>easy, just disable newgrf in multiplayer :)
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you can throw red error windows if that pleases you
16:28<andythenorth>we’re not PHP? :o
16:28*andythenorth must leave now
16:28<frosch123>yup, it should also terminate the game in singleplayer :p
16:28<V453000>I wouldnt dare to randomize wagon capacity since I was informed that it could cause some bad shit
16:28<V453000>George apparently is aware that his stuff is causing shit
16:28<sim-al2>Frosch: I could but I don't know what to list for the major change :)
16:28<frosch123>sim-al2: there are none
16:29<frosch123>it's the same as rc1
16:29<frosch123>just the "-rc1" removed
16:29<V453000>it is kind of the same as OzTard deliberately sabotaging his graphics, except the users can see through that better
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i suppose George just didn't get around to fixing it
16:29<V453000>... btw can I ask somebody what is the feature actually doing?
16:29<V453000>ok Eddi|zuHause :) sorry
16:30<frosch123>sim-al2: did you see the haiku for 1.5.2? it's about as much as there is to say :)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: : write "all quiet on the western front"
16:30<sim-al2>Yeah, I can't really top a haiku unfortunatly
16:31<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: who do you expect to get that?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i imagine that's rather well known...
16:31<frosch123>sim-al2: try a limerick :p
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16:46<V453000>am going
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20:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm, so i played some portal, but i'm still missing some transmissions and some cameras...
20:51<Supercheese>the cake is a π
21:23<Mazur>All I can say to that is: µ.
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21:39<Eddi|zuHause>ok, so i found some more transmissions, but i'm still missing one...
21:41<+glx>just follow a guide :)
21:43<+glx>(I'm missing 26 it seems ;) )
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22:36<aditsu>hi, if there are 2 secondary industries of the same type near a station, which one receives cargo from that station?
22:37<Sylf>the closest industry from the station's label
22:37<aditsu>cool, thanks
22:38<Sylf>I think the "closest" is measured by the manhattan distance between the top corner of the industry and the station label
22:39<aditsu>I'm trying to "move" an industry :p I know, it will take a while
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22:40<aditsu>yes! the new one is receiving the cargo
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 04 00:00:02 2015