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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-12-06

---Logopened Sun Dec 06 00:00:05 2015
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04:32<andythenorth>meh
04:32<andythenorth>also o/
04:33<@Alberth>hi hi
04:36<andythenorth>I was going to say 2-cargo ships would be good
04:36<andythenorth>but probably they wouldn't
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>there are lots of ways to get them wrong
04:44<@Alberth>coupling number of cargos to number of sprites doesn't make a lot of sense
04:45<andythenorth>I want pax + mail ships
04:45<andythenorth>but what are the chances that the amount of pax + mail is ‘correct’ for my route? o_O
04:45<andythenorth>very low
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>people rarely complain about planes
04:46<@Alberth>in my view, in the optimal solution, the newgrf should decide what cargoes and how many
04:46<@Alberth>very few people use planes
04:46<@Alberth>and those that do, serve cities
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, planes are just always full
04:47<@Alberth>so theoretically, you'd have the option of 32 different cargoes in your vehicle
04:47<@Alberth>no idea about feasibility though
04:47<@Alberth>or rather how much breaks if you decouple sprites and cargo type :p
04:48<andythenorth>ha
04:49<andythenorth>it was once proposed something like cargo compartments
04:49<andythenorth>where the vehicle defines n compartments, with x capacity
04:49<andythenorth>and the player can refit each compartment
04:49<andythenorth>it would be a mess for trains though
04:50<Taede>trains already have compartments
04:50<Taede>one per wagon
04:51<andythenorth>yeah....
04:51<andythenorth>wagon-based ships? o_O
04:55<Taede>would work for barges being towed by a towboat...
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>we have that already, it's called wetrails
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05:40<Wolf01>hi o/
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05:43<@Alberth>o/
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05:58<Wolf01>meh... "hey cortana, launch skype" "what do you want? 1. skype; 2. video skype"...
05:59<@peter1138>:)
06:03<Wolf01>the stupid redundancy of microsoft bothers me
06:04<Wolf01>every time i set up my system in a way everything it works well, here is another update for you which destroys the peaceful mood and starts another war between applications and drivers, and cortana too decides to enter the conflict
06:06<Wolf01>also i can't understand how the new apps work, i mean the "messages" and the "skype video"... why not just upgrade skype?
06:06<Wolf01>EOR; // (end of rant)
06:08<@Alberth>the infamous "one interface suits all"
06:16<Flygon>We already HAD a "One interface that suits all"
06:16<Flygon>It's called "Every flipping Windows between 95 and XP"
06:16<Flygon>And it worked, god dammit
06:16<Flygon>WHY DID WE CHANGE?!
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: because tablets and phones
06:17<Flygon>Oh
06:17<Flygon>Right
06:18<Flygon>Those 'things'. If I should ever so have to consider them the dignity of denotating them a designation of which that implies they were ever productively additional to the usage of my standard everyday computing life.
06:18<Wolf01>i'm not against the interface change, just the redundancy with new apps which doesn't even work
06:18<Flygon>Tablet and Phone Interfaces stay on Phones
06:18<Flygon>Desktop Interfaces stay on Desktops
06:18<Flygon>Is it really that difficult?
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: i'm fairly sure the answer to that is "yes"
06:19<@Alberth>there is no money in desktops, everybody already has a copy of windows
06:19<Flygon>Perkele :|
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't think microsoft ever made money on (home) desktops. it's all in "just get everybody to use it, so big companies will pay us any amount of money we demand to have it on all their computers"
06:22<@Alberth>fair enough
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>that's why OEM windows is so cheap. it's the computer equivalent of a drug dealer's "the first dose is free"
06:40<argoneus>Wolf01 you there?
06:40<Wolf01>y
06:40<argoneus>any idea which world settings are good?
06:41<argoneus>I want to have to actually leave my base
06:41<argoneus>with the default settings there's no incentive to
06:41<Wolf01>the incentive is "when you'll finish resources, you must find new ones"
06:42<argoneus>yeah if you saw my starting base
06:42<argoneus>it'd take like 20 hours to run out
06:42<argoneus>we already had the lategame tech
06:42<argoneus>and it was like halfway through
06:43<Wolf01>yes, i just started to expand too, and i'm at ~35 hours
06:44<Wolf01>now i'm exploring for big hives, as i need to build the definitive power armor
06:44<Wolf01>and when i find a nice ore patch, i'll start to build a mine to be connected later with the main settlement
06:49*andythenorth has a desktop OS on his laptop
06:49<andythenorth>and stupid tablet / phone OS on tablet / phone
06:50<andythenorth>Alberth: supplementary goals in BB? o_O
06:51<@Alberth>trying to merge SV/NCG into BB eh? :)
06:52<andythenorth>dunno :)
06:53<andythenorth>NCG is mostly fun in MP, with high targets
06:53<andythenorth>SV is good for forcing insane routes in one city
06:53<@Alberth>only the first two of http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7826 look feasible to me wrt the NoGo API
06:54<andythenorth>figures
06:54<@Alberth>ot rather I cannot see how you do the other ones
06:54<andythenorth>collect x% from an industry?
06:54<@Alberth>x% of what?
06:54<andythenorth>produced cargo?
06:54<andythenorth>too easy
06:55<andythenorth>hmm
06:55<@Alberth>or you have to do weird tricks like renewing trains and such
06:55<andythenorth>yeah
06:55<andythenorth>‘own 50 boats’ :P
06:56<andythenorth>silly goal
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06:56<@Alberth>I don't think the current goals are ready for such additions, it would need more work
06:57<@Alberth>quite trivial too, assuming the usual ridiculous amount of money :p
06:58*andythenorth will think on
06:58<andythenorth>there’s nothing wrong with current cargo goal
06:58<andythenorth>just variety might be nice
07:02<andythenorth>growing cities seems really boring
07:02<andythenorth>they grow anyway :P
07:03<andythenorth>‘deliver x amount to an industry and transport away y amount’ seems ok
07:10*andythenorth wonders about replicating the ‘connect A and B’ part of subsidies directly
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07:12<@Alberth>current cargo monitor fails for that
07:12<frosch123>andythenorth: did you consider more indirect goals?
07:12<@Alberth>it currently stores received and sent cargo for each endpoint
07:13<@Alberth>if you want "connects", end number of endpoint combinations explodes
07:13<@Alberth>s/end/the/
07:13<frosch123>instead of "transport iron ore from mine A to mill B", make "increase steel prodution around town C by 1000 per year"
07:13<frosch123>that leaves options to pick a steel mill, use multiple or fund new ones
07:14<frosch123>the GS could then subdivide the map into areas and pick places where currently no suich cargo is produced
07:14<frosch123>heading for distributed production of all secondary cargous throughout the map
07:15<frosch123>also the "more" part, would solve the duplicate goals thingie :p
07:15<andythenorth>that’s quite nice
07:15<frosch123>if there is already 500 per year, you can just increase the goal to 1000 per year
07:18<frosch123>depending on the stage of the game (early/late game), the script could also count the primary cargo sources in the map areas, and only give goals for areas with primary supplies nearby
07:18<@Alberth>sort of SV everywhere :)
07:19<frosch123>yeah :p but also sort of subsidies and colonization
07:19<frosch123>"produce stuff where nothing is produced yet"
07:20<frosch123>could also work in multiplayer...
07:21<frosch123>via storybook or something you could have a "market" for goals, which you can acquire
07:21<frosch123>as in: you do not randomly get new goals, but you select your goals from a global list for all companies
07:22<frosch123>and you better pick the good ones before they do
07:22<frosch123>but i am not sure whether the story book has button yet
07:22<frosch123>i think not :p
07:30<andythenorth>‘SV everywhere'
07:34<frosch123>silicon plains?
07:34<frosch123>just call it communism
07:46<frosch123>i don't get ldap
07:47<frosch123>truebrain told me to fix eints authenticaiton and use "uid" instead of "cn" for user names
07:47<frosch123>but in my test ldap isntallation phpldapadmin does not even offer me to enter a "uid"
08:02*andythenorth bbl
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08:02<frosch123>i guess i have to fallback to patch eints locally to use whatever phpldapadmin creates
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08:16<@Alberth>basically, write an eints ldap interface
08:18<frosch123>i think the problem with ldap is that all the documentation is theoretical
08:19<frosch123>ancient
08:19<frosch123>and completely disjunct from reality
08:19<frosch123>the web interface allows me to enter bullshit like licence plate numbers, but not groupmemberships
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08:21<@Alberth>:)
08:28<TrueBrain>frosch123: I had to install a few plugins to integrate LDAP with PAM; POSIX users and POSIX groups
08:28<TrueBrain>possibly any of those introduced uid as primary shit :P
08:29<TrueBrain>I remember it was very annoying to set it up .. as like you said: all documentation is theoretical :P
08:29<frosch123>i think it's just phpldapadming that causes the mess
08:29<TrueBrain>just one huge database :P
08:29<frosch123>it lists "uid" as required for posixAccount
08:29<frosch123>when i create an account i can actually enter one
08:30<frosch123>but after i hit commit it did not create a posixAccount but some inetperson
08:30<frosch123>which does not have uid
08:30<TrueBrain>inetOrgPerson
08:30<frosch123>so, it does not at all do what it says, and it lets me enter things which it then discards
08:30<TrueBrain>but you have to add posixAccount to it too, as object
08:30<TrueBrain>at least, here it has both
08:30<frosch123>it says inetorgperson (structral) and posixaccount
08:31<TrueBrain>and uid is not a field here either
08:31<TrueBrain>the entry is an uid
08:31<TrueBrain>as in, you cannot change the uid at all
08:31<TrueBrain>(basically, the dn has the uid)
08:31<frosch123>well, it does not even display it :p
08:31<TrueBrain>in the top blue bar
08:31<TrueBrain>or when you press: select internal attributes
08:31<frosch123>no, the dn always lists "cn"
08:32<frosch123>the "uid" is nowhere to be seen
08:32<TrueBrain>that is weird :)
08:32<TrueBrain>most likely some setting
08:32<TrueBrain>as then you dn was created with a cn, not with an uid
08:32<TrueBrain>but good chance I setup the LDAP for OpenTTD wrongly too
08:32<TrueBrain>as documentation is .. poorly :D
08:32<frosch123>well, it would all be fine if only the webinterface was bs
08:32<frosch123>but the console tools did not convice me either
08:33<frosch123>the console tools felt like git :p
08:33<TrueBrain>never used it :D
08:33<TrueBrain>I am seriously happy it "just works"
08:33<frosch123>as in: you first need someone to tell you that commit cache, staging area and index are the same thing
08:33<frosch123>because without the docs are just glibberish, as they randomly talk about one or the other
08:35<TrueBrain>owh, OpenTTD also uses "shadowAccount" btw
08:35<frosch123>does that one add memberOf ?
08:35<frosch123>because that one i did not have either :p
08:35<TrueBrain>no, memberOf was annoying to activate
08:36<TrueBrain>in slapd.conf: memberof-group-oc openttdGrou
08:36<TrueBrain>index memberOf eq
08:36<TrueBrain>and there is a memberof overlay and moduleload
08:36<TrueBrain>so its a seperate module ;)
08:36<frosch123>see, apparently everyone uses ldap for user authentication
08:36<frosch123>but apparantly there is not even a standard for defining group memberships
08:36<TrueBrain>nope
08:36<frosch123>i really have no idea how ldap can even remotely work :p
08:36<TrueBrain>it took me a long time to find something I could work with
08:36<TrueBrain>me neither :D
08:37<TrueBrain>there are several "memberof" plugins, I now see/read
08:38<TrueBrain>yeah, I totally forgot memberOf isnt vanilla ..
08:39<TrueBrain>dynlist of memberof module or something you need
08:39<TrueBrain>which fills those lists for you
08:41<frosch123>at least vanilla knows about licence plates
08:41<TrueBrain>important information, not?
08:41<TrueBrain>will be the next mandatory signup question
08:42<blathijs>I just created a custom schema to get the attributes I needed, puzzling with the existing object classes was a bitch :-)
08:44<frosch123>yeah, so the lesson is: "authentication via ldap" is about as precise as "import of xml data"
08:45<frosch123>"our old software can export data as xml, can you import that?" - "sure, we can import xml"
08:45<TrueBrain>hehe. yes :D
08:46<TrueBrain>just think of ldap as just another database engine
08:46<TrueBrain>table definitions are not preset
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09:10<@Alberth>of course, authentication based on type of cookies that are brought is relevant
09:33<andythenorth>aluminium in torpedo cars
09:33*andythenorth has no respect for realisms
09:38<argoneus>frosch123 Wolf01 is it just me, or do splitters "eat" things?
09:38<argoneus>sometimes i feel like my iron just disappears
09:38<argoneus>like it goes in but doesn't go out
09:40<frosch123>when you modify stuff, something stuff goes into inventory
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09:41<drac_boy>hi
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10:04<andythenorth>my Bee needs to be busier
10:04<andythenorth>10 goals is not enough :D
10:06<drac_boy>:p ? heh
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10:20<@Alberth>:o
10:20<@Alberth>you do have 10 goals?
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10:21<andythenorth>yeah
10:21<andythenorth>I don’t fulfill all of them
10:21<@Alberth>new bb does some testing first, so it takes a while before it approves new ones
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10:56<andythenorth>ha ha
10:56<andythenorth>FIRS arctic chains are now really illogical
10:56<andythenorth>:D
10:58<drac_boy>why? ;)
11:04<frosch123>water -> salt, water+salt -> saltwater
11:04<drac_boy>what do you exactly need saltwater for?
11:04<frosch123>for electrolysis
11:05<V453000>wtf
11:05<V453000>new cargoes?
11:05<V453000>well salt can probably get sugar graphics
11:06<frosch123>V453000: no, whenever there is a discussion about cargo chains, i give the stupidest part of bobs mods :)
11:06<V453000>xd dont know bobs mods sorry :)
11:07<V453000>from what I saw, I found the hyper realistic insane amount of ingredients and intermediates for everything
11:07<V453000>immediately no-no
11:08<frosch123>well, i wanted more cargos :) and there was only the choice for default and ecs. factorio has no firs or yeti yet
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11:16<V453000>just like the toolbar
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11:16<Zuu>Oh great. That will solve my issue of it loading cargo to the wrong wagon when the train has moved a half car forward.
11:17<frosch123>huh, i did not know that either
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11:23<V453000>well there you go :P idk if it is .12 thing
11:23<V453000>might be
11:23<Zuu>Really useful though for this utility train to have per-cargo type limits.
11:23<V453000>yes
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11:30<argoneus>V453000: can you make railroad through gates?
11:31<V453000>try? :)
11:31<argoneus>i dont have the resources yet
11:31<argoneus>im just wondering to see if I should bother with walls
11:31<argoneus>or if there's gonna be a gap
11:31<V453000>answer is yes
11:31<argoneus>that's cool
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11:33<argoneus>by the way, im trying to understand the production menu (P)
11:33<argoneus>but I don't know how to read it
11:33<argoneus>if a bar is full does it mean im not producing enough?
11:36<V453000>I believe the bars there are just comparison to the highest produced product?
11:37<argoneus>im not sure how to read from it if im producing enough
11:37<argoneus>like if the production and consumption are the same, does it mean i need to produce more?
11:39<V453000>I would not translate it that importantly
11:39<V453000>if you have a factory which immediately consumes a product, it will always be 100%
11:40<argoneus>i still swear splitters are bugged
11:40<argoneus>they seem to randomly consume my iron
11:40<argoneus>like 3 go in, 2 go out
11:41<V453000>that sounds very wtf but I havent ever seen anything like that happen
11:50<argoneus>hmm
11:51<V453000>I am fairly sure it is your mind going weird :P
11:54<argoneus>too bad trains cant 180
11:54<argoneus>:(
11:54<Zuu>You need an engine in each end if you want it to go in both directions.
11:55<argoneus>oh, that works?
11:55<argoneus>wow
11:55<Zuu>It will make the train a bit heaviyer as you have to pull around the backwards engine. But allows terminious stations.
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12:03<V453000>yeah :)
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13:20*andythenorth wonders if Baldy is ok
13:20<andythenorth>he’s gone quiet
13:22*V453000 gives zero fucks
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13:35<argoneus>do you guys use any mods for factorio?
13:35<argoneus>RSO and FARS seem popular but not sure if I want them
13:35<Zuu>peace mod is all I use
13:36<argoneus>but
13:36<argoneus>enemies are part of the fun
13:36<argoneus>i cant imagine playing without very big and very many enemy bases
13:37<Zuu>I'm not much in for killing creatures in games.
13:39<Zuu>Or seeing dead ones laying around on the ground.
13:40<argoneus>:<
13:40<argoneus>ill probably buy this game
13:40<argoneus>played it nonstop the past 2 days
13:40<argoneus>that's really rare with me
13:40<argoneus>are there any +- server requirements?
13:41<argoneus>when you have a lot of enemies
13:41<argoneus>V453000: are you there?
13:44*Zuu is good at sending away is train but forget to board it first.
13:45<Zuu>It is good though that you can board trains with speed > 0. :-)
13:45<argoneus>the last time I tried that the train boarded me
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13:46<Zuu>Jumping of a train with speed > 0 is not a good idea as it may hurt you.
13:47<__ln__>did you mean jumping of a train or jumping off a train
13:47<frosch123>Zuu: the most weird thing is that you can also bord the wagons :p
13:48<Zuu>Yeah, that is uesful when you fail to catch the engine but still want to go with the train to where it heads. If you get on a wagon to way back you cannot click on the engine to change where it goes and of course you cannot drive it. :-)
13:49<frosch123>yes, that's how i found out that you can jump into a wagon :p
13:52<argoneus>frosch123 frosch123 what mods do you use?
13:54<frosch123>currently none
13:54<frosch123>i downloaded a bunch to try out, but before i actually came around to trying them, the api changed and they were all broken
13:54<frosch123>since them i have been too lazy to redownload them
13:55<argoneus>lol
13:55<frosch123>the most interesting one currently is the one that changes how minerals spawn
13:55<V453000>argoneus: if you play a VERY long game, sure cpu is getting slower
13:55<V453000>but works fine
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13:56<argoneus>V453000: wut?
13:56<frosch123>"resource spwaner overhaul" seemed to fit my playstyle
13:56<argoneus>V453000: I wanted to ask you
13:56<argoneus>are the devs nice people?
13:56<frosch123>i also downloaded farl, but well, it will be obsolte with the new rail building in 0.13
13:57<V453000>wtf is that question
13:57<V453000>yes they are awesome
13:57<argoneus>ok ill buy the game then
13:57<argoneus>:3c
13:57<frosch123>i tried that bob stuff, but most of it is just not how i play the game
13:57<V453000>I cant imagine people who make a game "because they want to make a great game"
13:57<argoneus>V453000: ever been to the android app store?
13:58<argoneus>they want to make stuff to get some quick money
13:58<V453000>it is very nice to see after you browse some other games which have clear aim to make $$$
13:58<argoneus>i dont like giving money to cashgrabbers
13:58<argoneus>but factorio is too complex to be a cashgrab
13:58<V453000>hi EA :)
13:58<argoneus>also rip my savings
13:59<V453000>it is awesome, basically people who just do what they love, and the money is just the thing which allows them to do that and nothing else
14:00<argoneus>i regret not trying the game sooner
14:00<argoneus>i always thought it looked shit
14:00<V453000>heh
14:00<argoneus>but they should hurry up and go steam
14:00<argoneus>srsly
14:00<V453000>well, it is only getting better ;) both functionally and visually
14:01<argoneus>there shouldn't be a problem getting this greenlit
14:01<V453000>steam is somewhere end of january
14:01<V453000>why is steam so important? just to have it in your library?
14:01<V453000>the game will be no different on steam
14:01<argoneus>i know but i like having things in one place
14:01<argoneus>instead of having to remember 50 logins
14:01<V453000>use the same login data? :D
14:01<argoneus>that's what I already do but I don't tell anyone
14:02<argoneus>well..
14:02<V453000>I do understand what is the gain for us to be on steam ... more sales, easier distribution, ...
14:02<V453000>but for players, I dont get it as much
14:02<V453000>apparently I am underestimating the laziness of "have shit in 1 library":D
14:02<argoneus>well
14:02<V453000>I myself love steam, dont get me wrong :)
14:02<argoneus>i also have most friends on steam
14:02<argoneus>and can see what they play
14:02<argoneus>etc
14:02<argoneus>also
14:03<argoneus>I can make money back by selling the trading cards
14:03<V453000>yeah that is another thing
14:03<V453000>xd
14:04<argoneus>do you reckon I can run a server with 512 mb ram?
14:04<argoneus>headless linux
14:04<V453000>I dont really know much about that, but I would assume you can
14:04<argoneus>ok awsum thanks
14:04<frosch123>most memory will be in graphics
14:04<argoneus>by the way do you want to be steam m8s
14:04<argoneus>?
14:04<frosch123>ottd servers also need no memory, only cpu
14:05<argoneus>frosch123: the headless version shouldnt use graphics
14:05<argoneus>hopefully
14:05<V453000>I dont mind it :)
14:05<argoneus>if it tries to load sprites ill be sad
14:05<argoneus>since i dont have any graphics on my vps
14:05<V453000>I am thinking the headless version does exactly that, no gfx
14:05<argoneus>oh this reminds me, is there a way to wget the binaries?
14:05<argoneus>or is it behind login
14:06<V453000>behind login
14:06<argoneus>V453000: http://steamcommunity.com/id/argoneus_cze
14:06<argoneus>rip ill just scp it
14:07<argoneus>oh there's already a stripped package for linux
14:07<argoneus>awesome
14:09<V453000>:)
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14:17<Zuu>argoneus: If you get the game, you get a end-game goal - build a rocket silo and some rockets which require some decent amount of resources regardless of enemies.
14:18<V453000>OR build MOAR
14:18<V453000>which is truly endless XD
14:18<Zuu>:-)
14:18<V453000>launching 40 000 rockets , ...
14:23<@Alberth>just launch the server :p
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14:27<argoneus>is there a working RSO for 0.12.20?
14:27<V453000>idk I dislike RSO, I just set everything on very low frequency and im fine
14:27<argoneus>what's wrong with RSO
14:27<V453000>it has the thing 'further away = more yield of resources'
14:28<argoneus>that sounds nice
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14:28<V453000>which means nothing else but "expand only in 1 direction because it is more efficient"
14:28<V453000>yeah, at first it sounds nice
14:28<V453000>once you think about it it is totally wtf
14:29<V453000>if it was further away-worse yield, it would be more interesting. Motivating circular expansion and making the game harder as time goes
14:29<V453000>also it seems to me like it makes everything spread out WAY the fuck over the top
14:30<argoneus>wow
14:30<V453000>but to each their own, many people use RSO apparently
14:30<argoneus>http://puu.sh/lLIAu/4f00136393.jpg
14:30<argoneus>this was fun
14:30<V453000>heh
14:32<argoneus>hm
14:32<argoneus>not sure if RSO works
14:32<argoneus>nodes near the beginning have 300 yield per tile
14:32<argoneus>is that about right?
14:33<V453000>it could be
14:33<argoneus>not sure how to test if the mod wrks ;_;
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14:36<frosch123>i haven't tried rso yet, but i hoped it would reduce the variety in the size
14:36<frosch123>of the mining areas
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14:41<argoneus>im not sure how rso is supposed to work
14:41<argoneus>there's still like 20k resources per drill
14:41<argoneus>blah
14:41<argoneus>(in spawn)
14:49<V453000>setting probably matter
14:49<V453000>if not, there probably is some config.lua in the zip of the mod
14:49<V453000>you can edit values there, likely
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15:39<Aphid>I've been trying some things out, and is it me or does YETI have some sort of growth cap when you use slow trains?
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15:46<Aphid>I get a theoretical max. of 2250 people out of using the full chain based around one town and one of each industry with stations at 75% rating. Somehow the amount of cargo that's being 'leaked' is too much. Or am I supposed to use an imbalanced setup, like ~20:1 ratio of food to building materials?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>Aphid: i don't know how YETI works, but faster trains can give you higher ratings
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15:52<Aphid>Yeah I get that. Though if you're playing in like 1850 there's no train fast enough to raise ratings
15:53<Aphid>I'm trying to replace the manual settings for cargo requirements in my CB script with pre-set settings for each 'industry GRF' and climate. Because in the end you're computing those anyway based on what your map produces.
15:53<Aphid>Makes it work 'outside the box' instead of people having to mess with cargo IDs and stuff
15:53<andythenorth>there is no way YETI could react to train speed
15:54<andythenorth>it’s not in the newgrf spec
15:54<Aphid>There is, indirectly
15:54<andythenorth>unless there’s some insane way by measuring vars at nearby stations, which I know V won’t have used
15:54<Aphid>Like yeti is a sort of 'loop system' right? Cargo goes from 4X to 2A to 2AA to 2X to 4X
15:55<andythenorth>dunno
15:55<andythenorth>I only looked at the sprites ;)
15:55<Aphid>For the loop to be 'self reinforcing' which means that one YETI dude feeds more than 2.5 people, that one YETI dude needs to produce 0.5 units of food.
15:58<Aphid>But at each step, you lose between 8% and 25% of the cargo. You also need to provide machinery, as it doubles output at one leg of the cycle, yet at the cost of only ~16/54th of your workers (provided the machinery chain also supplies itself correctly and uses all six machinery chain industries, otherwise it's a loss).
16:01<Aphid>(3/4)^4*2*2/3*19/20 ~ 0.4007 though, so 0.4 food per yeti dude. That feeds 2 people, which sadly only produce 0.8 yeti dude.
16:02<andythenorth>I have ‘supplies trucks’ in Iron Horse and Road Hog, carrying farm supplies, engineering supplies. Now I have ‘vehicles’ cargo, should they carry that also?
16:05<Aphid>Shouldn't you use 'cargo class' to determine what a vehicle carries?
16:06<andythenorth>no
16:07<andythenorth>or yes, but also no
16:07<@Alberth>george does in ecs, afaik
16:08<andythenorth>it was a leading question I think
16:08<andythenorth>teddy-bear coding, for a decision I’d already mostly made :P
16:09<Aphid>Though it's a bit weird, GS cargo class documentation has no mention of the OVERSIZED, POWDERIZED, NON_POURABLE, and NEO_BULK classes
16:10<Aphid>So gamescripts can't check for those, apparently.
16:10<andythenorth>ha ha
16:10<andythenorth>classes :)
16:10<andythenorth>is it time for a class discussion again? o_O
16:10<Wolf01>argoneus: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D5D7348BE1780505!3570&authkey=!AIgFKzutgJ15hX0&v=3&ithint=photo%2cPNG
16:10<Aphid>But I'm wondering how do you do the cargos for vehicles then. Since there's like many diffrent industry sets...
16:10<argoneus>nice
16:11<Aphid>Can you choose between cargo class and hardcoded cargo ID or something?
16:11<andythenorth>labels
16:11<andythenorth>dunno if NoGo has label support, probably though
16:12<Aphid>Ah, like PASS for passengers
16:12<andythenorth>yup
16:12<Aphid>I think that's probably the issue sometimes though. Like YETI defines a weird label (YETI) for one of its cargos
16:12<Aphid>a bunch of trainsets won't support it since the wagons are defined using cargo labels, not classes
16:13<Aphid>(there's no wagons in for example Japanset that can carry yeti dudes)
16:13<@Alberth>bunch of trainsets are very old
16:15<Aphid>Thing is when you can use some sort of abstraction layer like those cargo classes you don't need to update your train set when there's a new industry set, as long as you can support all classes.
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but the way this works changed a while back, and before that it was a lot more cumbersome, so a lot of sets did not use it this way
16:16<Aphid>But when the abstraction is not specific enough it can be a problem.
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, some sets just got it completely wrong
16:17<slaca>where can i find a changelog of trunk? I would love to see what has been changed since last year. But I see only some translation in the trunk changelog
16:18<Aphid>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=tree?
16:19<Aphid>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=tree
16:19<Aphid>Remove the last question amrk
16:21<slaca>thx
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16:24<Aphid>Heh.. now for the hard part: FIRS analysis.
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16:40<andythenorth>Aphid: you know about online FIRS docs?
16:43<Supercheese>not to be confused with FIRS docks (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=52893) ;)
16:45<Aphid>Yeah but what Im' doing is a little more complicated
16:45<Aphid>Say you have a really big map, taking limit N-> infinity
16:45<Aphid>And you efficiently connect all the firs industries
16:45<Aphid>Then what's the ratio between final products?
16:46<Aphid>As far as I understand you have a bit of wiggle room because a lot of industries you can 'choose' where to send stuff
16:49<Aphid>E.g. coal can become either 1:1 building mats, or 1:1/2:1/2 engi/farm supplies, or 1:1/2:1/2 goods/manufacturing supplies. The manufacturing supplies can become either goods, food, or alcohol. So coal can make goods, food, alcohol, building materials.
16:52<Aphid>Hmm... though there's 5 ways to make food with MS, and only 1 way to make alcohol.
16:53<Aphid>I'm just going to 'assume' equal flow to all 'users' except for ES calc.
16:53<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
16:54<andythenorth>if you wanted to get really ‘accurate’ input for your calc
16:54<andythenorth>you could patch FIRS, the docs compile could also put out the production ratios at each industry
16:54<andythenorth>I think that’s overkill, but eh
16:54<andythenorth>it’s all there in python, and is trivial to adjust
16:55<andythenorth>meanwhile, ‘vehicles’ is a bit of an odd cargo :P
16:55<andythenorth>my trucks have 45t capacity, and nominally, 1 vehicle = 1t
16:55<andythenorth>so a single truck is loaded with 45 vehicles
16:55<andythenorth>looks daft :)
16:56<Supercheese>eh just Tetris a bunch of Minis together in a really large box truck
16:56<slaca>where can be tree growing disabled? cant find it in advanced settings
16:56<Supercheese>might not quite fir 45, but would be a few
16:56<Aphid>Aren't vehicles an 'OVERSIZED' cargo though?
16:56<Supercheese>fit*
16:56<Supercheese>oh I am just joking around
16:56<Aphid>So you could reduce capacity for all of those, and then it carries less vehicles
16:56<Supercheese>box trucks probably won't take vehicles
16:57<andythenorth>means the vehicle sets have to special case vehicles
16:57<andythenorth>which makes vehicles daft
16:58<andythenorth>hmm, I can’t afford a pyrite smelter yet :P
17:00<Aphid>hmm.. this is really cool though, I made a spreadsheet that does this thing for me...
17:01<Aphid>apparently 1t coal becomes 15 litres of alcohol, amongst other things
17:01<andythenorth>:o
17:01<andythenorth>ha
17:01<andythenorth>coal -> steel -> mnsp -> alcohol?
17:01<Aphid>probably via that branch
17:02<Supercheese>I take it that isn't accounting for bonuses from multiple input deliveries
17:05<andythenorth>it’s slightly nuts that this could all be resolved by a calculation :P
17:05<andythenorth>just using output from the compile
17:07<Aphid>Well, it's not 'entirely' solvable easily. Actually I still have to factor in engineering supplies,
17:07<Aphid>which can't be produced from all starting cargoes. so I have to adjust stuff like 'coal' downwards and 'livestock' upwards for that
17:07<slaca>does anyone know how to disable tree growth?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>Aphid: what exactly is it that you want to solve for?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>Aphid: how to get maximum amount of cargo?
17:08<Zuu>slaca: Lookup where it happens in code and comment it out and recompile?
17:09<Aphid>Eh no... I'm trying to get some good default params for GS that makes towns want 'stuff' to grow.
17:09<Zuu>Or look through all settings.
17:09<Aphid>I want a good balance of 'stuff'. E.g. matching the industry set
17:09<Aphid>Spreadsheet can get me what that 'balance' has to be.
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>so you want roughly equal amounts of TE_FOOD and TE_WATER cargos?
17:10<Aphid>Depends on the industry set.
17:10<Aphid>Say you generate a map and add up all the cargo amounts produced.
17:10<Aphid>For example, the map I genned now for FIRS has 7747 oil and only 1949 coal
17:10<Aphid>So I should require more of the products from OIL than from COAL.
17:11<Aphid>For example the default temperate maps have a ratio of 183 goods to 27 valuables to 89 coal.
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>Aphid: but that is the INPUT of your calculation. i want to know what your intended OUTPUT
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. the condition where you think the system is "balanced"
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>...is
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17:24*andythenorth fixes map colours
17:25<andythenorth>busy busy
17:25<andythenorth>april suddenly looks very close :(
17:25<Supercheese>busy bee
17:26<andythenorth>new bee
17:26<andythenorth>less repeating goals :P
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17:28<andythenorth>bye
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19:07<drac_boy>hi
19:12<drac_boy>so..kinda been wondering about this for a bit now if anyone here got something to add....
19:13<drac_boy>why did many classic italy electric locomotives come in a Bo-Bo-Bo favour instead of rather going with Co'Co?
19:13<drac_boy>even the weight isn't that much different
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause>the weight really only depends on the number of axles.
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>most likely they thought it would go better around curves
19:22<drac_boy>ohh...you might have hit on what I hadn't thought of ... hmm two short chassis instead of one long chassis .. yes that does seem to make sense
19:23<argoneus>damn V453000 0.13 looks hype
19:27<Wolf01>the track planning tool
19:27<argoneus>im still not sure how the robots work
19:27<argoneus>need to figure that out eventually
19:27<argoneus>they are lategame stuff right
19:28<argoneus>as in I need science packs 3 for them
19:28<argoneus>which are a pain to automate
19:29<drac_boy>hi wolf01 btw where did you said you were from again?
19:29<Wolf01>from the internet
19:29<drac_boy>very funny...if you were really internet you wouldn't need to sleep
19:29<drac_boy>:P
19:30<Wolf01>don't expect i can tell you anything about trains of my country, i don't even recognize the models
19:30<drac_boy>no its ok re that
19:34<Wolf01>btw, i'm from Italy, but don't tell it around ;)
19:38<drac_boy>italy? thats funny because as you see I just asked about a locomotive near you :)
19:39<drac_boy>so mm are you near the inland part (north) or waterside part south?
19:39<Wolf01>north, near Venice
19:40<drac_boy>nice, never been to venice but always seen many paintings/cartoons about the water-bound city :)
19:41<drac_boy>not to mention I believe james bond was there at least once (that crazy water/land convertible boat-ish thing heh)
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19:45<drac_boy>dunno if you watch much james bond, do you wolf01?
19:46<Wolf01>no, i watched the old ones with Sean Connery and Roger Moore
19:47<drac_boy>oh, I'm guessing dr.no and From Russia With Love?
19:47<drac_boy>I sometimes seem to forget which name was which title but mm
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19:48<drac_boy>heh found the list and seem I guessed right this once :)
19:48<Wolf01>goldfinger, live and let die, moonraker, octopussy, maybe the man with the golden gun
19:49<drac_boy>Golden Gun .. that was a crazy car ramp stunt they did .. especially when they didn't have a computer to crunch the number for them at that time
19:49<drac_boy>only had one take and somehow nailed it perfectly as I recall
19:50<drac_boy>oh and not sure if you heard of the tv series Mythbuster (it might be north america only) .. but anyhow they tested the myth that you could suffocate if your skin was entirely painted (and of course I think it was a big bust after all)
19:51<Wolf01>i don't really remember them, just some scenes, i was a kid the last time i saw them
19:51<drac_boy>at least that all-gold girl in the bond movie looked nice anyway
19:51<Wolf01>yes, i know mythbuster
19:52<drac_boy>I've only seen small bits of mythbuster but some of the things they try are always amusing (even if its the setup rather than the actual effect that causes the laughters)
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19:55<Wolf01>yes, the last one i saw, they were trying to make concrete gliders to fly more than 1m
19:55<drac_boy>wolf01 but anyhow the current mythbuster isn't the same as the old one .. I believe part of the crew were basically kicked (or something else to no-more-shows effect)
19:55<drac_boy>concrete? 0_o
19:55<drac_boy>heh
19:56<Wolf01>concrete
19:56<drac_boy>seriously..concrete is kinda the last thing I would ever think of for something thats supposed to fly!
19:56<drac_boy>:P
19:56<Wolf01>that was the reason, i think
19:57<drac_boy>mm yeah, at least foam is a nice one if you just want to make a quick (as long as you got a heated wire tool to shape the wings with) glider in a few minutes and not care if it snapped on landing :)
19:59<drac_boy>oh yeah wolf01 one of the few that I remember and liked was to do with diving into the water to avoid getting killed if someone was shooting you ... of course this actually was true
20:00<drac_boy>he (umm forgot name of that older man with the short moustache) even was able to borrow a high-power military rifle ... and that actually shattered on impact with the surface of the water (the weaker bullets just barely got below the water surface)
20:01<drac_boy>but anyway I wouldn't bore you with more details of that show ;)
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>bullets really lose almost all of their momentum the moment they hit water. plus it makes it more difficult to aim
20:04<drac_boy>yep
20:11<drac_boy>anyway wolf01 and eddi have fun ok? I'm going off for now :)
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20:11<Wolf01>i'll have sleep
20:11<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 07 00:00:07 2015