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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-12-08

---Logopened Tue Dec 08 00:00:08 2015
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05:49<argoneus>i dreamt about smelters
05:49<argoneus>and how to make a good design
05:49<argoneus>fucking rip
05:49<Wolf01>:D
05:49<Wolf01>welcome to the club
05:50<argoneus>on the other hand
05:50<argoneus>now i know how to make a good smelter design
05:50<argoneus>it involves underground belt weaving
05:50<argoneus>actually is that a bug to be fixed or is it a feature?
05:50<argoneus>maybe V453000 knows
05:51<Wolf01>what do you mean? the ability to pick up from the underground belts entrances?
05:52<argoneus>no, underground belt weaving
05:52<argoneus>basically
05:53<argoneus>you can alternate yellow/red or red/blue underground entrances
05:53<argoneus>because they don't join up to eachother
05:53<Wolf01>oh
05:53<argoneus>and this way you can get two different lanes on 1tile
05:53<argoneus>so you have a long line with belt weaving
05:53<argoneus>and smelters on both sides
05:53<argoneus>and the input line is also the output line
05:53<argoneus>and it has large throughput
05:55<argoneus>Wolf01: https://i.imgur.com/Xp8EusF.png
05:56<argoneus>something like this :D
05:56<V453000>idk, probably a feature :)
05:56<Wolf01>i think that optimisation is an overkill
05:57<argoneus>it's not really
05:57<argoneus>you don't lose on anything
05:57<argoneus>other than not being able to use a blue belt on output which is not needed anyway
05:57<argoneus>and you gain space
05:57<Wolf01>the basic smelters can't even handle that production speed
05:57<V453000>except insane amount of iron invested in the underground belts you dont lose anything yes
05:57<argoneus>you can put electric furnaces there
05:57<argoneus>nothing is stopping you
05:58<V453000>I use underground belt weaving only when I really need the space, which usually only happens when I want the factory to use beacons later
05:58<Wolf01>with electric furnaces you need more space and then you can just put 2 belts and long inserters
05:59<Wolf01>i really think that if you plan well the building site, you'll never run out of space
05:59<Wolf01>at least on survival
05:59<argoneus>well thing is
05:59<argoneus>ive been trying to come up with a design that will let me start off with regular furnaces
05:59<argoneus>and then easily upgrade them to electric
06:00<V453000>yes but if you have assembler with 4 inputs and you want a beacon to reach it, the inserter+belt cannot take more than 2 tiles
06:00<argoneus>but it usually involves rebuilding everything
06:00<V453000>https://www.dropbox.com/s/ftbas9dkha9qiau/Lab_closeup.png?dl=0
06:00<argoneus>i havent found a good early-game smelter design yet
06:00<V453000>normal-> electric == just remove coal line, that gives you back the extra tile size?
06:01<argoneus>yeah but space management
06:01<argoneus>like, do you smelters usually output in the middle?
06:01<argoneus>or on the sides of them
06:01<argoneus>if the input and output is both in the middle it makes it much easier to expand
06:02<Wolf01>http://www.factorioforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Factorio-beacon.png <-
06:02<V453000>it does not really matter at all to me
06:02<argoneus>why smart inserters?
06:02<V453000>looks like ancient grahpics
06:03<argoneus>oh
06:05<V453000>one of my smelting bases https://www.dropbox.com/s/ya04qgnlhsj0w03/Smelting.png?dl=0
06:05<V453000>simple, no messing around
06:06<argoneus>are the robots really better than the belts?
06:06<argoneus>they need to fly quite far
06:06<V453000>for unloading ores I like it a LOT more than belts
06:06<Wolf01>heh, mine is really small, just 25 electric furnaces for iron and 10 for copper, but just because i don't even need to use all that i produce
06:07<V453000>you can make train stations closer so they travel less
06:07<V453000>and with enough roboports they will work regardless
06:07<argoneus>I see
06:08<V453000>as for early game smelting, anything works really :)
06:08<V453000>later on I just set this up once I got trains and bots
06:08<argoneus>wait
06:08<argoneus>do you just delete entire sections and build them somewhere else?
06:08<argoneus>like your early game smelters
06:08<V453000>why would I delete anything
06:08<V453000>not necessarily, sometimes I bring ore for them to continue using them
06:09<V453000>by train obviously, once their deposit runs out
06:09<argoneus>right
06:09<V453000>or I turn them to steel at the main base later, and bring iron plates by train
06:10<V453000>there are many options and none of them is the right one really :) anything works
06:10<V453000>for the sake of expandability, it is nice to have smelting as its own train base though
06:11<V453000>this way whenever I discover I need more of -ore-, I just bring more of it to the smelting area by train
06:11<V453000>if I need more smelters then I Just blueprint another row
06:11<argoneus>I see
06:11<argoneus>0.13 cant come quick enough
06:11<argoneus>the current train building system gives me aids
06:12<argoneus>V453000: do you get access to dev builds?
06:12<V453000>I dont see much wrong with the current train building system?
06:12<argoneus>curves are frustrating to build
06:12<argoneus>diagonal lines are frustrating to build
06:13<V453000>yes it is a bit tougher to find where tracks belong but I dont have a problem with it anymore and I cant say I have that much time spent on playing the game
06:13<V453000>idk, dint feel like a critical issue to me
06:13<V453000>access, probably yes, do I use them? no
06:13<argoneus>well it felt like it to the devs apparently
06:13<argoneus>:D
06:14<V453000>well sure the new rail building tools are awesome but saying that you wont build trains in .12 because .13 will be better is kind of exaggerating to me
06:14<V453000>to that I am comparing how much of a problem I see it :P
06:14<argoneus>i do have a lot of trains
06:14<argoneus>it's just frustrating
06:14<argoneus>I said I can't wait for 0.13
06:14<argoneus>not that I protest or something
06:15<V453000>XD k
06:15<V453000>btw blueprints for curves etc migth also help
06:16<argoneus>blueprints are fairly late
06:16<argoneus>oh yeah this reminds me
06:16<argoneus>how soon do you guys like to get steel?
06:16<argoneus>i usually get oil first
06:16<argoneus>but there are some neat things you need steel for
06:16<V453000>you cant get oil without steel?
06:17<argoneus>you can't?
06:17<argoneus>wait what do I get first then
06:17<Wolf01>steel for sure
06:17<Wolf01>as the refinery needs steel
06:17<argoneus>im p sure i always hold it off for something else
06:17<V453000>refinery needs steel, pumpjack needs steel, chemical plant needs steel, liquid tank needs steel
06:17<V453000>I usually play with rather high biter settings so AP ammo is kind of essential
06:17<argoneus>arent lasers better?
06:18<Wolf01>plot twist, you don't even need ammo
06:18<Wolf01>and no, i'm not referring to laser turrets
06:18<Wolf01>i used more ammo to smash rocks than for biters nests
06:19<Wolf01>but with the tank, i just run over anything
06:19<argoneus>I wish vehicles had movement prediction in multiplayer
06:19<argoneus>it's pretty much impossible to drive them
06:21<V453000>lasers sure are better but if biters are attacking you early (which they are unless you play with very low biter settings which I find boring), then you need AP ammo
06:23<argoneus>i usually play with very high biters
06:23<argoneus>and the regular magazines seem to be enough
06:23<Wolf01>i play with high biters and peaceful mode
06:23<@planetmaker>o/+
06:23<argoneus>though I need to resupply them allllll the time
06:23<Wolf01>just because i need the alien stuff
06:23<V453000>hi pm :)
06:23<argoneus>\o
06:24<Wolf01>they will get angry sometimes but i manage to clear the nearest nests before the pollution reaches them
06:25<Wolf01>i had to use the turrets only for the first 3-4 nests
06:25<argoneus>what is a good progression anyway
06:25<argoneus>coal -> copper+iron -> red/green potion -> steel -> oil -> whatever?
06:25<Wolf01>then the OP tank happened
06:25<argoneus>Wolf01: peaceful is for pussies :^)
06:26<argoneus>you don't know terror until you get a wave of spitters in 3 different directions
06:26<V453000>I like getting laser turrets + construction bots before blue lab pack to repair my stuff
06:26<@planetmaker>this sounds terribly like the wrong channel
06:26<Wolf01>i have enough zergling rush on starcraft, let me play a slow paced game every now and then ;)
06:26<argoneus>planetmaker: I know, but the game has trains and signals too
06:26<Wolf01>o/ pm
06:26<argoneus>and I usually cut it if there's people discussing trains
06:26<argoneus>like, your trains
06:31<V453000>well it is about equally offtopic as realistic train discussions :)
06:31<argoneus>how do you guys get iron/copper to things early game?
06:32<argoneus>if you keep using splitters then after 3 of them you're out of iron
06:32<argoneus>so there has to be some other magic right
06:32<V453000>well then where is the iron going? :D
06:32<V453000>the splitter does not make things disappear...
06:32<argoneus>no but
06:32<argoneus>if you have 20 iron on the belt
06:32<V453000>but yes, splitters are the only option
06:32<argoneus>1st splitter 10, 2nd 5, 3rd 2/3
06:33<argoneus>so at the end you have like 2 iron plates
06:33<V453000>yes, normal binary tree
06:33<argoneus>time to suggest
06:33<argoneus>smart splitters
06:33<argoneus>with ratios
06:33<V453000>no
06:33<argoneus>:(
06:33<V453000>you can control that by making smart inserters so that your assemblers eat less cargo
06:33<argoneus>don't I need to research circuits for that?
06:33<V453000>also you can make multiple splitters to get a ratio
06:34<argoneus>yeah that's true
06:34<argoneus>I can split it twice in the beginning
06:34<argoneus>and get 4 lines
06:34<V453000>well yes, if yo uwant such wtf control, you do need to research circuits for that
06:34<argoneus>but it's normal
06:34<V453000>regardless, the answer is that I get a belt which splits to anything
06:34<V453000>the whole point is that no assembler ever takes from the non-split part
06:35<argoneus>yeah same
06:35<V453000>that way when you have insufficient amount of resources, the factory still works, just slower
06:35<argoneus>but there's my problem
06:35<V453000>and ofc in some ratio
06:35<argoneus>like
06:35<argoneus>I make gearwheels, that's one split
06:35<argoneus>then ammo, another split
06:35<argoneus>then scipack 2's, that's another split
06:36<argoneus>and then I want to make steel, but when I split it again there's barely any iron at the end
06:36<argoneus>does that mean I need to produce more iron
06:36<argoneus>so all the ones before are clogged?
06:36<V453000>yes, basically
06:36<V453000>or add another belt of input
06:36<V453000>or make the belt go faster
06:37<argoneus>another belt of input?
06:37<V453000>well nobody says you are limited to 1 belt right?
06:37<V453000>if one is not enough you can just add another
06:37<argoneus>right
06:37<V453000>on which you get more iron, obviously
06:38<argoneus>im probably just going to fix my ratios, it should help early on
06:38<argoneus>just split the main line into two
06:38<argoneus>and then alternate left/right
06:38<argoneus>that should help a lot
06:38<V453000>I just make assemblers output into chests with small inventory, that way they stop consuming stuff once there is enough
06:38<argoneus>the small inventory is still quite large :(
06:38<V453000>you can cap it at anything you like?
06:38<argoneus>wait
06:38<argoneus>what?
06:38<V453000>:)
06:39<argoneus>no?
06:39<V453000>yes
06:39<argoneus>or do you mean smart stuff
06:39<V453000>no, any chest without any smart stuff
06:39<V453000>at the end of chest inventory is a red X
06:39<V453000>just click it and move it to any point in the chest you like
06:39<V453000>using .12?
06:39<argoneus>oh
06:39<V453000>idk if it is in .11
06:39<argoneus>I thought it was
06:39<argoneus>wait
06:39<argoneus>what did I even think the cross did
06:39<argoneus>well now I know
06:39<argoneus>so it limits the slots?
06:40<V453000>yes
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06:40<argoneus>damn that's neat
06:40<V453000>https://www.dropbox.com/home/public/_FACTORIO/MessFort?preview=MessFort_MESS.png
06:40<V453000>my latest factory :)
06:40<argoneus>>doesn't exist
06:40<argoneus>help
06:56<argoneus>can you reupload
06:56<argoneus>?
07:00<Wolf01>he died trying
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07:29<argoneus>(((
07:30<V453000>argoneus: https://www.dropbox.com/s/b8q9mkahjteb7t3/MessFort_MESS.png?dl=0
07:30<V453000>pasted wrong link :)
07:32<argoneus>V453000: how did you take this screenshot?
07:32<argoneus>are you playing on 4k or is there a better way?
07:32<V453000>no normal full HD
07:32<argoneus>huh
07:32<argoneus>how is it so big
07:33<V453000>full HD big?
07:33<argoneus>no wait
07:33<argoneus>im retarded
07:33<argoneus>I thought you could zoom all the way in
07:33<V453000>you are aware that you can zoom out in the game right? :P
07:33<argoneus>but you zoomed the game out and took a pic
07:33<V453000>yes
07:33<argoneus>right
07:33<argoneus>your smelters not working
07:33<argoneus>:<
07:34<V453000>no, that is why there is full double line of iron plates next to them
07:34<V453000>brought by trains now
07:34<argoneus>what if you need iron ore?
07:34<argoneus>to make concrete
07:34<V453000>I make concrete at smeltery ;)
07:34<V453000>bricks are smelted there as well anyway
07:36<argoneus>oh
07:36<argoneus>so you transport stone to your smeltery?
07:36<argoneus>makes sense i guess
07:36<argoneus>i should make a dedicated smelting base
07:37<V453000>currently I have 3 bases
07:37<argoneus>yeah this is cool
07:37<V453000>the main one where I started - where everything eventually gets produced
07:37<V453000>one for smelting
07:37<argoneus>by the way, about oil
07:37<argoneus>it's not worth it to process oil separately, right
07:37<V453000>and one for circuits and modules
07:37<V453000>separately?
07:37<argoneus>I just barrel it up and move it to my main base
07:37<argoneus>where all the processing is
07:38<argoneus>the pumpjacks run out quite fast
07:38<V453000>you can put speed modules and beacons to pumpjacks to keep them somewhat relevant
07:38<argoneus>I wish there was more way to get power
07:38<argoneus>other than STEAM ENGINES
07:38<argoneus>MORE STEAM ENGINES
07:38<V453000>solar panels?
07:39<argoneus>solar doesn't seem competitive, it just prevents biters from busting your ass for a bit
07:39<V453000>solars are great
07:39<argoneus>are there any bigger accumulators than the ones I hav enow?
07:39<argoneus>the first ones
07:39<V453000>in mods yes
07:39<argoneus>i play vanillo
07:39<argoneus>well I use rso but vanilla
07:40<V453000>I like the mod from xyle which adds new solar panels and accumulators
07:40<V453000>so you can spend more resources on making better things
07:41<V453000>and use less space
07:41<V453000>cause solar farms are just wtf big
07:44<argoneus>i guess solar panels are nice
07:44<argoneus>since you can put them anywhere
07:45<argoneus>you can have a dedicated solar base
07:49<Wolf01>i'm switching to solar power for everything, at least during the day, at night i have some steam power plants and a large battery array
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07:51<V453000>yeah I just didnt feel like having a power base so I solved it with the mod ;P
07:51<Wolf01>ok, back to work to that concrete factory, now that i found a big stone patch i need 1000 of concrete for the rocket silo :P
07:53<Wolf01>also... V453000, is there a practical way to move 4 full steel chests?
07:53<V453000>what I do is that I replace them with active provider and bots empty it
07:54<Wolf01>eh, also with max speed and load capacity they take ages
07:54<V453000>then you dont have many bots :P
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07:55<Wolf01>and i need to set up some requester chests with the filter, but then i'll get into a loop
07:55<V453000>well you let them empty to storage first, ideally
07:56<V453000>regardless, if you cant use bots like that, just place 2 other chests, empty your inventory and manually move it
07:56<V453000>not that big of a deal either
07:57<Wolf01>ahah, then the drones will fill it again :D
08:00<V453000>??
08:00<V453000>clear filter/remove input?
08:00<Wolf01>too much work
08:01<argoneus>is there a mod to be able to rotate assemblies?
08:01<Wolf01>use the blueprints and rotate them
08:01<V453000>well if two clicks are too much work then idk
08:01<argoneus>i cant rotate them when placing o.o
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08:01<argoneus>they dont have any direction either
08:02<V453000>3x3 = rotate how? :d
08:02<argoneus>well
08:02<argoneus>if I need fluids
08:02<argoneus>then I need to rotate the pipe
08:02<V453000>then you rotate them after you selected the fluid recipe
08:02<argoneus>wait a sec
08:02<argoneus>that works?
08:02<V453000>..
08:02<argoneus>fffuuuck
08:02<Wolf01>lol
08:02<argoneus>i swear you cant rotate them before selecting recipe
08:03<V453000>how would you see it even if you could?
08:03<argoneus>._.
08:03<argoneus>i guess
08:03<V453000>like, how can you tell they arent actually rotating
08:10<argoneus>i guess
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08:12<argoneus>just to make sure im reading this right
08:12<argoneus>an electric drill by default mines roughly 0.5 iron per second, a furnace can smelt 2 items per second
08:13<argoneus>so I need 1 furnace per 4 drills? that sounds awfully low
08:13<argoneus>i swear it's slower than that o.o
08:14<V453000>idk I dont care about numbers and ratios
08:14<V453000>stuff works or not, it alway show what I need more of
08:14<argoneus>but does it sound about right
08:14<V453000>no idea
08:14<argoneus>that it's 1 furnace per 4 drills?
08:14<argoneus>hmmmmm
08:14<argoneus>Wolf01: any idea?
08:14<Wolf01>no, i don't really care about optimisation
08:14<argoneus>you guys
08:14<argoneus>meanwhile im trying to minmax everything
08:15<V453000>remembering stupid numbers has nothing to do with building a good factory
08:15<V453000>you can clearly see if something is a bottleneck or not even without remembering numbers
08:15<argoneus>but you can only fit so many drills on one iron mine
08:16<argoneus>knowing how many furnaces you need to run that helps with planning
08:16<V453000>->?
08:16<V453000>sure, yes
08:16<argoneus>i mean
08:16<argoneus>you probably know the numbers intuitively
08:16<argoneus>from experience
08:17<V453000>no because I just have shitload of ore outposts going into a shitload of smelters at smeltery
08:17<V453000>but dont see the actual ratio
08:17<argoneus>lol
08:19<V453000>also some of my smelteries have speed beacons, some do not. also makes a big difference
08:27<argoneus>ok
08:27<argoneus>it turns out
08:27<argoneus>the wiki is full of bullshit
08:27<V453000>xd
08:28<V453000>never read it
08:32<argoneus>V453000: basically it says
08:32<argoneus>that a furnace can smelt 2 items/s
08:32<argoneus>which is bullshit, it should say the mining speed or mining factor or whatever is 2
08:33<argoneus>from this you figure out that it takes 3.5 seconds to smelt one iron, which means it takes 1.75 seconds to smelt it in a furnace (3.5/2)
08:33<argoneus>if it takes 1.75 seconds to smelt 1 iron, that's ~0.57 iron plates per furnace per second
08:33<argoneus>and a drill can produce roughly 0.525 iron per second
08:33<argoneus>so basically you need them 1:1 + one or two backup furnaces
08:33<argoneus>bah
08:37<Wolf01>mmmh the train length difference between horizontal and vertical direction really bothers me more than the difference of the diagonal ottd's one
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08:42<argoneus>im probably going to make some sort of spreadsheet
08:42<argoneus>for various ratios
08:43<argoneus>although im pretty sure someone has already made something like that
08:43<V453000>foreman?
08:44<argoneus>oh :))
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09:05<argoneus>foreman seems broken
09:06<argoneus>it says I need 2 furnaces for 4 drills
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09:16<argoneus>so uh V453000
09:16<argoneus>apparently foreman is broken as well
09:16<argoneus>it gives values that don't correspond to what the wiki says
09:16<argoneus>im not sure who to trust anymore, do I need to stopwatch this stuff myself :/
09:16<V453000>why dont you just read the values of speeds of things in the game?
09:17<V453000>crafting speed, mining speed, time it takes for X, ?
09:17<V453000>I give zero shit about the numbers tbh
09:17<V453000>might want to go to the proper channel to ask about factorio math
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09:18<argoneus>I asked in the factorio channel, we agreed on a calculation
09:18<argoneus>but now foreman is giving me different numbers
09:19<argoneus>yeah, ingame it says the same as what we calculated
09:19<argoneus>basically foreman is useless
09:19<argoneus>rip
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11:40<andythenorth>o/
11:51<@Alberth>o/
11:53<andythenorth>Every Town has a Goal GS?
11:53<andythenorth>win them all
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12:00<@Alberth>euhm, that would bea city builder thingie, wouldn't it?
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12:02<andythenorth>goals might be quite varied
12:03<andythenorth>it’s similar to idea Frosch had about developing regions
12:03<andythenorth>Silicon Valley Everywhere or so
12:03<andythenorth>which is similar to my colonisation Conquer the West idea
12:03*andythenorth back to playing BB :)
12:05<@Alberth>:)
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12:21<andythenorth>after 1960
12:21<andythenorth>why build trains? o_O
12:21*andythenorth has trucks everywhere :P
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12:25<andythenorth>is rubber edible?
12:25*andythenorth has a bad refit :P
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>you might survive eating it :p
12:31<@Alberth>it's probably not very tasty :)
12:34<andythenorth>it’s not
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12:39<andythenorth>I think I’ll patch BB for 20 goals
12:39<andythenorth>:)
12:39<andythenorth>but later
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12:45<@Alberth>also sort on progress? running stuff isn't that interesting
12:45<@Alberth>not sure if there is a ticket about it
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13:44<andythenorth>sort on progress might be usefull Alberth
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13:54<@Terkhen>Hello
13:56<@Alberth>hello
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14:00<@Alberth>o/
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14:03<frosch123>hoi
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16:27<argoneus>V453000: Wolf01 can you guys tell me why this doesn't work? http://puu.sh/lOlvN/7a5c21af00.jpg
16:27<argoneus>the train tries to go in the upper station
16:28<Wolf01>signals are wrong
16:28<argoneus>signals are right
16:28<Wolf01>also you might need the chain signal (a sort of pre-signal)
16:28<argoneus>but the train was already too far forward
16:28<argoneus>fuck
16:34<Wolf01>if more trains need to use the same station, you might need waiting areas
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16:35<frosch123>argoneus: when you hover over a signal or trainstop, it shows some arrows for the driving direction
16:37<argoneus>Wolf01: nono
16:37<argoneus>but different trains load different things
16:37<argoneus>so i need separate stations
16:37<Wolf01>or smart inserters
16:38<argoneus>how do smart inserters tell which train it is?
16:38<Wolf01>i have the same unloading station for both copper and iron ores
16:38<Wolf01>one side for copper, the other for iron
16:38<argoneus>yeah unloading
16:38<argoneus>but this is copper
16:38<argoneus>er
16:38<argoneus>loading
16:38<argoneus>it's a loading station
16:38<argoneus>and both the trains go to different places
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16:39<Wolf01>then yes, you need two
16:40<@Terkhen>good night
16:40<Wolf01>night Terkhen
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18:02<marlinc>Is there a content pack that adds more MagLev Lev N trains? For example Lev 6?
18:02<marlinc>What ever that might be :)
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18:04<Eddi|zuHause>marlinc: try vactrains or monolev replacement
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18:09<marlinc>Mm Eddi|zuHause that's cool. I just downloaded the 2 packs related to vactrains but I'm unsure where to look. I started a single player game to try it out but it doesn't appear under the train menu
18:09<marlinc>Railway menu*
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>did you activate them after downloading?
18:10<marlinc>Ah! I didn't know that. I've done that now
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18:59<Wolf01>'night
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19:01<drac_boy>hi
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 09 00:00:10 2015