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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-12-19

---Logopened Sat Dec 19 00:00:08 2015
---Daychanged Sat Dec 19 2015
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02:59<@Alberth>moin
03:03<andythenorth>o/
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03:54<@Terkhen>good morning
03:57<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
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04:23<V453000>so I made myself a tasklist for BRIX XD
04:23<V453000>probably wasnt a great idea
04:23<V453000>https://trello.com/b/weoRI73h/openttd-brix
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04:39<@Alberth>now your followers get up-todate news on your progress :)
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04:44<V453000>yeah but seeing the wall of tasks is a bit intimidating :d
04:45<@Alberth>hmm :)
04:45<@Alberth>at work I have a list of several hundred things :p
04:45<@Alberth>I don't pay much attention to it :p
04:45<V453000>:D
04:49<@Alberth>just pick anything on the list, and do it, until you run out of things :)
04:50<V453000>that is what I am doing so far
04:50<@Alberth>the list is mostly for keeping related stuff together, and not forgetting things
04:51<@Alberth>a bit of dependency ordering can be useful too, but that's about it, imho
04:52<@Alberth>the site seems more for discussing and organizing, ie communication between people
04:52<@Alberth>which is not very relevant if there is only one person involved :p
04:54<@Alberth>at work, I use it as memory. Some issues are years old, but if anyone needs to know about it, I can dig up the ticket, read it, and tell everything I know
04:55<@Alberth>these are typicially edge cases that you will only encounter if you construct it.
04:58<V453000>yeah
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05:28<Wolf01>o/
05:33<@Alberth>o/
05:34<V453000>\.
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06:13<Wolf01>http://factorioforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18621 whoa, that's nice, i've never thought about roundabouts for train junctions
06:15<Wolf01>also i need to redesign all my rails because i'm stupid
06:15<Wolf01>factorio != ottd
06:16<argoneus>good morning train friends
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06:17<argoneus>path signals for factorio when
06:21<V453000>I didnt read it but chain signals solve all your problems :P and roundabouts are super bad
06:21<V453000>afaik chain signals kind of already do work like path signals argoneus
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06:22<Wolf01>every junction is super bad if you have more trains than the safe waiting areas
06:22<argoneus>wut?
06:22<argoneus>aren't they like entry/exit signals?
06:22<argoneus>that's what I thought they were
06:22<V453000>they are but they also do work like path signals
06:22<argoneus>ah yeah
06:22<argoneus>you can use entry/exit signals to get the path signal effect
06:23<argoneus>except having two trains in the same block
06:23<Flygon_>Wolf01: I was half-expecting pictures of rail crossings THROUGh roundabouts
06:23<V453000>no
06:23<argoneus>right
06:23<argoneus>they don't lookahead
06:23<argoneus>but they pick the right routes
06:23<argoneus>shrug
06:23<V453000>it has nothing to do with the "pre-signal" functionality ... they simply care about paths
06:23<Flygon_>http://gokml.net/maps#ll=-37.919414,-215.006468&z=19&t=h As depicted
06:23-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
06:23<argoneus>wait
06:23<argoneus>so it's not "like"
06:23<argoneus>the chain signals already work with paths, not blocks?
06:24<V453000>just try it...
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06:24<argoneus>I don't have a save with trains atm
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06:24<argoneus>but I'll believe you
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06:27<argoneus>also why are people so obsessed with train roundabouts?
06:27<V453000>because they are primitive to build
06:27<argoneus>have you ever seen a train roundabout irl
06:27<argoneus>there's a reason for it, trains aren't cars
06:27<V453000>needs no logic, you just consistently connect things to a loop
06:28<V453000>I cant think of a simpler solution either
06:28<V453000>and with the precedenting example of car roundabout it is clear where are people coming from :)
06:28<argoneus>just ghetto connect it
06:28<Wolf01>on a city near mine they are planning a double roundabout with a railway which passes through one of them, now i understand where they got the idea
06:28<argoneus>idk
06:28<argoneus>not sure if it's just me
06:28<Flygon>argoneus: Train cloverloops don't exist IRL
06:29<Flygon>But we still build them
06:29<argoneus>but roundabouts don't look deadlock-proof
06:29<Flygon>Because they WORK within the games
06:29<V453000>Flygon: yeah they dont
06:29<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdnoweavingcloverleaf.png This works :U
06:30<argoneus>it's also huge
06:30<V453000>only lesser knowledge or ignorance can make you say that
06:30<Flygon>True
06:30<Flygon>V453000: My OTTD games run near entirely on ignorance
06:30<V453000>then "it works" has very little value or relevance to "is a good solution"
06:31<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdroroterminus.png RoRo fudgery, brought to you by ignorance
06:31<Flygon>The four-to-one merge I never bothered to fix from being a pinch point
06:31<V453000>yes excellent
06:31<V453000>im off
06:32<argoneus>well I mean
06:32<Flygon>See ya
06:32<argoneus>it seems like it works
06:32<argoneus>the clover thing seems functional too
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06:32<argoneus>but it's wayyy too large
06:32<Flygon>Yeah
06:32<Flygon>In a tigther space, I'd be utterly stuffed
06:32<Flygon>And would need to become more creative
06:32<Flygon>But, in most circumstances where space is an issue
06:32<Flygon>Speed ISN'T
06:33<argoneus>all you need to do is connect each input to each output without tangling
06:33<Flygon>So, you can crap out a smaller interchange without as much harm because stuff's going slow anyway
06:33<Flygon>But, I also play with trying to make things pretty, so... keep that in mind
06:34<Wolf01>it's nice that if you search for train junctions on google you'll find almost all ottd results
06:34<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdquadcomplete.png And some of my lines can be ridiculously stupid
06:35<argoneus>this confuses me
06:35<Flygon>Yeah, see what I mean? I just broke your brain :D
06:35<Flygon>But, it goddamn worked :D
06:35<Flygon>Uhm
06:35<Flygon>Don't ask about the ships
06:35<Flygon>I don't even know why the ships
06:36<Wolf01>but some of our junctions may exists irl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_junction
06:36<Flygon>I do note
06:36<Flygon>I would NEVER build the cloverleaf I showed
06:36<Flygon>If OpenTTD had more flexible tunneling and viaduct tools
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06:36<Flygon>Having Cities Skylines style underground tools in OTTD would be amazing
06:37<Flygon>Then I could have the same end result as my cloverleaf
06:37<Flygon>Without the ridiculous land requirements
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06:40<Flygon>argoneus: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdlowroomjunction.png One of my more regretted junctions
06:40<Flygon>Even worse, I tore it off an IRL road junction that hit the same issue I did
06:40<Flygon>(Space)
06:40<Flygon>http://gokml.net/maps#ll=-37.684903,-215.081902&z=18&t=h This one
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06:43<Wolf01>i really like your track building style
06:43<Flygon>Huh? O_o
06:43<Flygon>I'd post screenshots
06:43<Flygon>But I always felt that my style was too sterile to poston forums
06:44<Flygon>(with the 'regretted' junction, I did try to alleviate it by having the empty coal train floor it as fast as possible downhill to minimize impact)
06:45<argoneus>I can't sight read your designs quickly
06:45<argoneus>I'm like "ok so the trains come here, wait what"
06:45<argoneus>:D
06:45<Flygon>argoneus: It WORKED
06:46<Flygon>Trust me :D
06:50<Flygon>Wolf01: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/icelandgamev2reykjavikregion1926.png Another screenshot I like
06:51<Flygon>Tho, note one of the Eastern track pairs from Reykjavik is not in commission yet
06:51<Flygon>Hence the lack of signals
06:53<Flygon>I presume argoneus will understand this track system easier :3
06:54<Wolf01>did you manage to make them profitable?
06:55<Flygon>'course
06:55<Flygon>Can't build this without $$$
06:55<Flygon>And I didn't cheat <_>
06:55<Flygon>Oil and Coal sustained the game very sturdily
06:55<Flygon>Getting Food was a pita
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06:58<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland2020hellabigmetropolis.png Another fun one
07:01<Flygon>(yes, that's FIVE Tauros's on the Oil train. I needed something with enough tractive effort to replace the triple headed Big Boys. But nothing existed in the GRF. They didn't accelerate as quickly, but, they eventually got fast enough)
07:03<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland1968list.png Oh, they were just double headed
07:03<Flygon>Still, it took FIVE of the locos to keep up
07:05<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/england1921london.png I should redo this game so that it's... less bad
07:08<Flygon>Shame I lost most of my old OTTD saves
07:09<Flygon>I assumed they were in the OpenTTD folder
07:09<Flygon>But they were in My Documents
07:09<Flygon>Which I wiped because I reinstalled Windows
07:09<Flygon>I thought they wouldn't be in there because, genuinely
07:09<Flygon>It's the first game I ever had that saved files in My Documents
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07:10<Wolf01>i usually backup the entire user folder because i might need something stored in the .foldername folders used by a lot of softwares
07:10<Wolf01>that's one thing i really hate
07:11<Flygon>x.x
07:11<Flygon>I should play OpenTTD while my graphics tablet is under repair
07:11<Flygon>I have a backlog of work
07:11<Flygon>But my backup tablet is, frankly, too old
07:12<Flygon>It's inverter's practically gone
07:12<Flygon>The backlight tube itself's near dead
07:12<Flygon>It's got capacitor problems
07:12<Flygon>And the touchscreen itself is showing age
07:12<Flygon>So, may's well spend it playing games waiitng
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07:56<Wolf01>V453000, i'm the only one who looks at the blank blueprint and see a WC?
07:58<Flygon>Remember, y'all
07:59<Flygon>If OpenTTD's default townnames sound stupid
07:59<Flygon>http://gokml.net/maps#ll=-37.702908,-214.817347&z=15&t=h Remember that Melbourne has a suburb somehow called Research
08:00<Wolf01>that is what happen when you let Aussies give names... Mt. Disappointment anyone?
08:02<Flygon>"The unusual name arose from the gold rush era in Victoria, during the mid 19th century. Research was then known as Swiper's Gully, but gold was found after the area was re-searched. Swiper's Gully then became Research Gully, and finally, late in the 19th century, abbreviated to Research."
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08:14<@Alberth>moin
08:14<Wolf01>o7
08:14<Wolf01>o/
08:16<Flygon>Menta
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08:40<@Alberth>ha, new attempt
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10:04<drac_boy>hi
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10:06<drac_boy>hows the firs-loving andy now? :p heh
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10:09<drac_boy>:-s
10:25<drac_boy>anyone else up at 10est anyway? :)
10:33<@Alberth>probably not
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10:36<drac_boy>and why did you type that otherwise? heh :)
10:36<drac_boy>didn't sleep well so having a lazy day atm tho here
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10:43<@Alberth>/me lives at 4cet
10:44<@Alberth>or rather 16:45cet
10:45<@Alberth>ha, you got up at 5:30 in the morning?
10:46<drac_boy>nope...much earlier than that...and couldn't sleep right away either
10:47<drac_boy>hopefully next night will be normal sleep .. but till then like I was saying going be lazy for today :)
10:47<drac_boy>so, you having something good for supper soon? ;)
10:47<drac_boy>I had some simple apple pancakes for breakfast anyhow
10:47<@Alberth>nah, just standard stuff
10:57*drac_boy also hasn't been able to do much grf work in a while either
11:01<@Alberth>reduce laziness :)
11:05<drac_boy>anyway going for a bit now, have fun with your basic supper :)
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11:17<andythenorth>how plausible is savegame editing?
11:18<@Alberth>editing is not the problem, loading it back in afterwards is the challenge :p
11:19<@Alberth>but not very, in general
11:19<andythenorth>I want to play a tropic game, but the map generator is appalling
11:19<@Alberth>you may have better luck fixing things in afterload code
11:19<andythenorth>and I can’t find any good heightmaps so far
11:20<andythenorth>wondering about using temperate, then changing climate in the save
11:20<@Alberth>generate one in the SE, save it as height map?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think that's a worthwhile approach to the problem
11:24<andythenorth>SE heightmap works :)
11:24*andythenorth learns a thing
11:25<andythenorth>wow, mountains in Tropic :D
11:25<andythenorth>never seen those before
11:25<@Alberth>there really are mountains in eg south america :)
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11:30<andythenorth>also Africa
11:30<andythenorth>and other places even :P
11:31<andythenorth>nobody’s going to ‘fix’ the tropic map gen, right?
11:32<sim-al2>I always wonder what the existing tropic climate actually represents, I can't think of many places that transition from hard desert to rainforest that quickly
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11:33<@Alberth>it was fixed, but the fixes had some unwanted side effects and were reverted :p
11:34<@Alberth>sim-al2: you know OpenTTD is a game rather than earth simulation program, right?
11:37<Wolf01>andy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjn3PK9LNvo
11:41<__ln__>i suspect it's not really operating on steam
11:43<Wolf01>i think it's a bit obvious
11:45<andythenorth>ha ha
11:45<andythenorth>maybe I should steampunk my 8x8 truck
11:48<sim-al2>Albeth: Oh defintely, but at least artic and temperate look like real places
11:50<sim-al2>Toyland... yeah I have no words
11:50<andythenorth>some people prefer toyland :)
11:51<sim-al2>Too bad that Toyland to Mars newgrf isn't on Bananas
11:51*andythenorth wonders if GS can check industry availability
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11:58<@Alberth>I would expect so
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12:00<@Alberth>o/
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you probably can't know what type of industry it is, and distinguishing cargos is tricky as well
12:02<@Alberth>https://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSIndustryType.html#e3b56889b44ffefd3e753cdc751cf02c
12:03<andythenorth>I have a FIRS economy where about half the types are missing at map gen
12:03<andythenorth>and the goal is to build them
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i think that checks whether manual construction is enabled
12:04<@Alberth>"If no valid GSCompanyMode active in scope, the script can build as long as the industry type can be built."
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence makes no sense
12:05<@Alberth>you don't see an industry as a type, but as a thing producing cargoes X and Y
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>but i presume it doesn't actually test the construction callback of the GRF
12:05<@Alberth>you can't do that other than by building
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>as that would imply having a location, etc.
12:05<@Alberth>such joy, this newgrf stuff :p
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>so you can't actually use this for "is this missing at map gen?"
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12:07<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to have a function that checks the appearance chance
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12:07<Eddi|zuHause>but that could give misleading results as well
12:08<frosch123>hola hi hoi
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12:08<@Alberth>tbh I would expect the above function to do something like that, but I haven't checked the code
12:08<alluke>happy yule
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't see how the text would suggest that
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: what's a "yule" anyway?
12:09<alluke>christmas
12:10<@Alberth>it's possible it does something else
12:10<@Alberth>but it seems the closest thing inexistence for what andy wants, imho
12:11<andythenorth>it would probably be sufficient to count each type
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i'm still of the opinion that this does nothing like what andythenorth wants
12:11<andythenorth>and try to build some that are substantially under-represented on the map
12:11<alluke>what christmas grfs there is
12:11<andythenorth>but there’s no point setting goals for types that are unavailable :P
12:12<alluke>other than the tree
12:12<andythenorth>in fact, player building industries is not very interesting
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: some grf replaced statues with christmas trees
12:12<alluke>i know that one
12:12<andythenorth>better to let the GS just go on a building spree
12:13<andythenorth>possibly meeting goals xyz triggers more
12:13<@Alberth>and of course all the newgrfs you made for the occasion
12:13<andythenorth>it’s similar to a suggestion by frosch123
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: well, toyland is mildly christmas related
12:13<alluke>thats too much :P
12:13<alluke>i like to keep it real
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>so christmas is real?
12:14<alluke>at least it exists in real world
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i have not heard of any other christmas-y grfs
12:19<alluke>me either
12:19<andythenorth>christmas GS
12:19<alluke>grove street?
12:19<andythenorth>1 train, have to deliver presents to every town, once
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: can't you just limit goals to industries where at least one exists on the map?
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and if you want to construct new industries, try all of the "0" category first, and when none succeed, try the other ones?
12:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think something like that would work
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12:37<alluke>when will chips get recyclables sprites
12:43<andythenorth>ah, philosophy
12:43<andythenorth>does a tree in a forest etc
12:43<andythenorth>what is the nature of time?
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12:43<andythenorth>I don’t know, tbh
12:43<andythenorth>what would they look like?
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>like heybales, just more colorful?
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13:03<alluke>trash bags?
13:03<alluke>recycled paper?
13:08*andythenorth plays Busy Bee
13:21<andythenorth>this British Iron Horse is not very good for Africa :P
13:22<andythenorth>so many Impediments :(
13:29<alluke>like what
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13:34<andythenorth>unfinished trainset
13:35<andythenorth>unfinished ship set
13:35<andythenorth>unfinished RV set
13:35<andythenorth>unfinished industry set
13:35<andythenorth>...
13:38<frosch123>unfinished station set?
13:40<alluke>ah yeab
13:40<alluke>because africans cant finish it?
13:43*andythenorth tries to finish FIRS 2.0 by April
13:44<frosch123>what does "finish" mean?
13:44<andythenorth>make possible to ship
13:44<frosch123>or do you want to make a 3.0 starting from may?
13:44<andythenorth>assuming raised industry limit in April for stable Openttd
13:45<andythenorth>it was ready to ship, then I started…improving it
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27473 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2015-12-19 19:45:08 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
13:46<andythenorth>hg is getting unworkable :(
13:47<andythenorth>I upgraded it, and it’s borked
13:53<frosch123>i learned, when evolution fails to start-up (about 80% of times), just leav it running
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13:53<frosch123>it fixed itself eventually with the next cyclic trigger
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14:02*andythenorth quits grumbling and draws a copper refinery
14:02<andythenorth>including new sprites, not just copy-paste from other industries :P
14:03<alluke>i think you should remove clay from paper mill
14:03<alluke>it makes no sense
14:04<alluke>wood and chemicals are fine and realistic
14:05<andythenorth>clay is chemicals I suppose
14:05<andythenorth>also so is wood
14:05<andythenorth>how about just chemicals?
14:05<alluke>just chemicals is good
14:05<alluke>but carrying trainloads of clay to papermill makes no sense
14:06<alluke>its useful only for bricks
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14:41<andythenorth>use a truck
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15:34<__ln__>has anyone else seen the movie yet?
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15:44<alluke>which movie
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15:51<TrueBrain>the movie
15:52<alluke>ive seen many movies
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have not seen the movie
15:53<TrueBrain>many != the
15:53<TrueBrain>well, the might be included in many
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have not seen many movies either
15:53<alluke>but what is "the" called
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>i have not seen more movies than i have seen
15:54<TrueBrain>I havent seen less movies than I have seen
15:54<TrueBrain>weird, how that works
15:54<+glx>alluke: I guess the one with too much merchandising
15:54<TrueBrain>and too much buzz
15:55<TrueBrain>and too much "I really dont give a crap" level
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>i have been avoiding the buzz... that generally helps with the disappointment levels afterwards
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16:00<alluke>dont know about that
16:00<alluke>the last movie i saw was called "fifty shades of gape"
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't sound like a movie anyone should watch...
16:02<alluke>very mind-expanding movie
16:02<alluke>i warmly recommed it
16:21*andythenorth is drawing a copper sludge sedimentation tank
16:22<andythenorth>http://g02.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1PvOQHXXXXXbyaXXXq6xXFXXX5/200725981/HTB1PvOQHXXXXXbyaXXXq6xXFXXX5.jpg
16:22<andythenorth>should I use normal blue for the water?
16:22<andythenorth>or something darker, but less obviously water?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>use darker, but sprinkle in some flashing water pixels?
16:28*andythenorth tries it
16:31<andythenorth>the water in those probably rotates
16:31*andythenorth does not fancy animating that :
16:31<andythenorth>:P
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16:47<alluke>what will the copper refinery produce
16:48<andythenorth>copper
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17:16<__ln__>alluke: there is only one the movie atm.
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17:36<mikehg_>Hi - I'm trying to run on a Chromebook, using Crouton / Debian 8. Unfortunately it doesn't have a 'Del' key, so I'm trying to rebind.
17:37<mikehg_>Does anyone know what I should put in hotkeys.cfg? I've tried obvious things like 'delete_windows = SPACE' or '... BACKSPACE' but they just get blanked if I run the game.
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18:13<mikehg_>OK, so I stole 'V' from 'new viewport' and that worked. Still, does seem odd that both 'SPACE' and 'BACKSPACE' don't work. Ho hum, sorry for the noise...
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>mikehg_: these are the keys that it understands: http://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/hotkeys.cpp;h=84288a0e8148c3c0126142dfa7d3bd41597225fa;hb=HEAD#l36
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>space is sort of hardcoded to "close newspapers"
18:34<mikehg_>Eddi|zuHause: thanks - that's a useful reference. It doesn't really matter, of course, you can get used to anything - I just thought I was probably doing something else wrong when neither worked. Cheers.
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>mikehg_: well you're free to open a ticket if you feel like a certain key should be supported
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>also, there should probably be a wiki page containing this info...
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18:51<mikehg_>Eddi|zuHause: are you an admin? Make me an account if you like, I'll turn that into a page. mikehg is fine as a username, it's mike.h.gentry at gmail.com
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not an admin
18:56<Wolf01>'night
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19:22<@Terkhen>good night
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19:46<drac_boy>hi
19:46<drac_boy><sometimes hates the web...as usual :-s
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20:28<drac_boy>at least one relative thing thats' for sure is...theres so many train photos :P
20:28<drac_boy>heh
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 20 00:00:27 2015