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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-12-29

---Logopened Tue Dec 29 00:00:40 2015
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02:14<Flygon_><Flygon_> Had a brownout
02:14<Flygon_><Flygon_> Lost my work on OpenTTD
02:14<Flygon_><Flygon_> :(
02:14<Flygon_>THE WORST FEELING
02:19<Supercheese>ya need a battery backup power supply
02:19<Supercheese>it's an excellent investment
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02:45<Flygon_>Supercheese: Yeah, every one of my PCs has one inbuilt
02:45<Flygon_>Except the desktop I was playing on xP
02:45-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
02:45<Flygon>TOOD: UPS
02:45<Flygon>So I can also retain Internets >_>
02:47<Flygon>I forgot how fun mountain railways are
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03:12<@peter1138>Many people just flatten them...
03:13<@peter1138>Town in the way between your two distance map points? Raze it!
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03:13<@peter1138>*distant
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04:01<Flygon>peter1138: That's silly
04:03<@peter1138>Many people are.
04:04<Flygon>I mean
04:04<Flygon>Half the point of the game is making stuff pretty
04:04<Flygon>Even if it can be slightly less practical
04:05<Flygon>Granted, part of the reson people DO do this, is because OTTD's tunnel/bridge functions are underdeveloped
04:05<V453000>watup
04:05<@peter1138>Flygon, shh!
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04:07<Supercheese>can't even get signals in tunnels & bridges, much less diagonals or simutrans-esque underground layer
04:08<Supercheese>anyway, to quote: Good night train friends
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04:12<Flygon>peter1138: Just an observation. I don't mean any offence!
04:12<Flygon>I actually forgot you were prolly a dev
04:13<V453000>peter1138 is just a patch vending machine
04:14<V453000>you mention something and he links you to a patch he wrote
04:14<@peter1138>Flygon, I didn't mean that :)
04:14<Flygon>Still, you do get my point!
04:14<Flygon>xP
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05:06<Wolf01>o/
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05:38<Flygon>Shit. I just hid a locomotive
05:38<Flygon>How do I unhide a locom- nvm
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05:44<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a "show all hidden" button
05:46<Flygon>Yep
05:46<Flygon>There is
05:46<Flygon>Sorry for my dumb x.x
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05:48<V453000>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=indN4kcshB0
05:48<@peter1138>You can hide locos?
05:49<Flygon>Yeah
05:49<V453000>in the purchase menu
05:50<Flygon>Yeah
05:50<Flygon>Annd craaaaap
05:51<Flygon>I just accidentally sent everything for servicing
05:51<Flygon>We really need a "Cancel Servciing" buttonb
05:51<V453000>you are really good at hitting random buttons
05:52<Flygon>That's what she said
05:52<Flygon>:3
05:55<@Rubidium>Flygon: that's called "the undo knob"
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05:56<Flygon>Where is it? O_o
05:58<Wolf01>i hope you arent't serious
05:58<Wolf01>*aren't
06:00<Flygon>I am
06:01<@Rubidium>Flygon: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=41630
06:01<Flygon>Oh
06:01<Flygon>No
06:01<Flygon>I don't mean ANYTHING like that
06:02<Flygon>I just meant cancelling any existing Manual Servicing orders for a train group
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06:02<V453000>the servicing should mainly work like
06:02<V453000>"trains start requiring servicing and visit depot whenever they meet one, like normally"
06:03<V453000>not "send all trains to depots immediately and fuck up everything"
06:03<Wolf01>eh, when you try to cancel the order, trains already moved in a wrong part of the infrastructure in search of a depot, so it will cause jams, there you really need the undo knob
06:03<Flygon>Wolf01: Nah, this was done in pause mode
06:04<Flygon>V453000: It's a "Breakdowns Turned Off" game
06:04<Flygon>Because I'm a cheap bastard
06:04<V453000>does not matter
06:04<V453000>you can use servicing even with no breakdowns
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06:05<Flygon>I know xP
06:05<Flygon>Just.... derp
06:05<V453000>...
06:05<Flygon>Sorry
06:05<Wolf01>eh, you learned to not clickfest the hard way
06:06<Flygon>Nah, I'm just twitchy
06:06<Flygon>I've had shaky hands since I was a child
06:06<Flygon>It makes using glass drawing tablet a pain because
06:06<Flygon>The screens are so smooth
06:06<V453000>causes some serious cloverleaf diagnosis
06:06<Flygon>That they capture all my shakiness too
06:06<Flygon>I already did the cloverleaf :U
06:07<V453000>yes, hinting it might be a problem in the head, not hands :P
06:07<Flygon>Wait, now you lost me
06:07<Wolf01>(i usually miss the right icon in the windows app bar, like starting IE when i want to run notepad, three times in a row)
06:08<V453000>I basically built an uber stronk argument that based on you building cloverleaves, the hands are not the problem. Because cloverleaf = pinnacle of stupidity
06:08<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdlansing1948.png What's wrong with this? O_o
06:09<V453000>literally everything
06:09<Wolf01>the cloverleaf
06:09<Flygon>It's relatively high speed, and works well with realistic acceleration
06:09<V453000>deadlockable, terrible in size, terrible in throughput, terrible in expandability
06:09<Flygon>And will handle the freight chucked at it pretty well
06:09<V453000>sure
06:09<Flygon>I've never had it deadlock
06:10<V453000>yeah pointless to explain
06:10<Flygon>It's just difficult to see how it deadlocks without it actually deadlocking
06:11<Flygon>And I've not run long enough freight inside the actual leafs to make that a huge possibility
06:11<V453000>tracks join before other tracks leave, simple as that
06:11<@Rubidium>V453000: how is it deadlockable?
06:11<Flygon>Did you look at the screenshot?...
06:11<@planetmaker>moin
06:11<Flygon>The traffic doesn't enter into exiting traffic
06:11<V453000>ok not exactly deadlock, just problematic
06:11<V453000>sorry about that. :)
06:11<Flygon>The cloverleaf is designed explicitly not to do that
06:11<@Rubidium>because the "trivial" deadlock where you have trains in a circle is not possible because in one direction there is no join-before-split
06:11<V453000>hi pm, I discovered I am able to create a subproject of NewGRFs at devzone? XD
06:12<Flygon>Menta planet
06:12<V453000>I created BRIX project, hope it is fine with stuff
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06:12<@peter1138>Meh, flat junctions with path singles, easy peasy.
06:12<@peter1138>signals too
06:13<@peter1138>do we have diagonal bridges/tunnels yet?
06:13<Flygon>(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdlansingfreeflowcloverleaf.png A clearer look at the cloverleaf as it is in the current game)
06:13<V453000>this shit just hurts.
06:14<Flygon>The design? :P
06:14<V453000>I am fine with it if someone says they were just having random fun or people unaware that it is bad, but justifying it is just seriously mind boggling
06:14<Flygon>I'm just a casual player
06:14<Flygon>I'm going more for aesthetics
06:14<Flygon>And a lot of the more 'efficient' junctions also tend to be really ugly
06:14<V453000>this is aesthetical for you?
06:15<Flygon>And since we can build flexible tunnels and bridges yet
06:15<Flygon>This's the closest I can get to a stack interchange
06:15<Flygon>Even then, a stack interchange would never work in 1885. No tractive effort. >_>
06:16<Flygon>The Cloverleaf already had enough problems with the inclines involved. It only got put in because the flat interchange was getting too congested
06:16<Flygon>It is to me
06:17<Flygon>Tho
06:17<Flygon>If I took a wider screenshot of the network
06:17<Flygon>You'd probably want to bark at me pretty hard
06:18<Flygon>"Vehicle not Available"
06:18<Flygon>I really gotta autoreplace some of these vehicles
06:23<Flygon>However
06:23<Flygon>For something I have had deadlock in the game through incredibly bad "I really didn't think this through"
06:24<Flygon>V453000: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdflintoilrefinery1948.png Prepare to scream
06:25<V453000>not much wrong with that at all
06:25<Flygon>Really? O_o
06:25<Flygon>It's the only part of my map that's actually deadlocked
06:26<V453000>pickup trains waiting?
06:27<Flygon>That, and poor signal planning
06:27<Flygon>And track planning
06:27<Flygon>Ended up having to do lots of small adjustments
06:28<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttddetroitpenninsula1911.png This contains what it did have
06:31<Flygon>Ended up having a pretty bad deadlock... and I only noticed because I wondered what broke the cloverleaf
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06:36<Flygon>But, yes
06:37<Flygon>For IRL use, Cloverleafs are pretty useless, even if you build a non-weaving one like I did :D
06:37<Flygon>Unless you really really want to use up a lot of spare land and have very very easy grades for the vehicles involved... but that's pointless in this day and age
06:50<Wolf01>which road set are you using?
07:01<@peter1138>did lego worlds turn out to be any good? :P
07:01<Wolf01>it's boring right now
07:01<Wolf01>waiting for multiplayer
07:20*Eddi|zuHause wonders what weird definition of "RL" Flygon has
07:21<Flygon>Actual real world
07:21<Flygon>Wolf01: American Roadset
07:21<Wolf01>does it change with the years or it stay like that also in 2000+?
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: well, they built some cloverleaf-like junctions on the berlin outer ring railway
07:22<Flygon>Too steep to build a stack junction?
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>that was started in the 1930s and finished in the 1960s or 70s
07:23<Flygon>Ahh, the grades involved definitely would've been a factor, then
07:24<Flygon>Uhm
07:24<Flygon>I'm not too familiar with Berlin's geography
07:24<Flygon>http://gokml.net/maps#ll=52.458336,13.341096&z=11&t=h&q=Berlin Can't find it x.x
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:BerlinAussenringSchema.jpg&filetimestamp=20041109161445&
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's also an "inner" ring, from the 1880s
07:27*Flygon nod
07:27<Flygon>We had 'some' inner and outer ring railways
07:27<Flygon>But by ring, I mean...
07:27<Flygon>They really weren't rings <_>
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07:28<Wolf01>o/
07:28<@Alberth>moin
07:28<@peter1138>A ring is useful.
07:28<Flygon>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8c/Melbrail_former_present_proposed.svg/1044px-Melbrail_former_present_proposed.svg.png Ignore the Yellow and the Green lines
07:28<__ln__>makes you invisible
07:28<@peter1138>Exactly.
07:28<Wolf01>hey, i was writing that
07:28<Flygon>Inner Circle is the only real circle we ever had. We now have the City Loop, though.
07:29<Flygon>Alemein line combined with the 'Outer Circle' above it created the second 'loop'. But, again, it really wasn't a circle
07:29<Flygon>It's worth noting that true circles can't really be made. That map ommitted the gigantic bit of water in the way.
07:32<@peter1138>bridges!
07:32<@peter1138>tunnels!
07:32<Flygon>We're not building an underwater station
07:32<Flygon>We're not nipponese
07:33<Wolf01>a bridge inside a tunnel
07:33<Flygon>Ahh
07:33<Flygon>http://gokml.net/maps#ll=52.66848,13.303609&z=14&t=h I think I found it, Eddi
07:33<Wolf01>or a suspended tunnel
07:33<Flygon>Wolf01: Sydney did that with one of their road tunnels, kinda
07:33<Flygon>They submerged pre-fabbed segments, watertight
07:33<Flygon>Then connected them together
07:33<Flygon>And... yeah
07:34<Wolf01>bah, i hate when RL beats fantasy... we should catch up
07:34*Wolf01 is thinking about a catapult for ships
07:37<@Alberth>water resistance needs fixing then probably
07:37<Wolf01>water, i want to launch ships through air to reach impossible places
07:40<Wolf01>i remember when my strategy was to teleport cruisers on the "one tile water" pond in the middle of the enemy base in red alert using the chronosphere
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08:17<@peter1138>hmm
08:17<@peter1138>high wing aircraft with retractable landing gear look weird...
08:22<__ln__>like this one? http://www.lowcosts.ru/airplanes/photos/bombardier-dash-8-400-8.jpg
08:23<@peter1138>hmm
08:23<@peter1138>a little
08:23<@peter1138>but light aircraft really
08:26<@peter1138>Dihedral (upswept wings) can be used to increase stability on low-winged aircraft.
08:26<@peter1138>heh
08:26<@peter1138>i did that just for the highlight, sorry :p
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>i read a sentence similar to that a few days ago when i tried to figure out how to build airplanes
08:30-!-tneo- is now known as tneo
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>but flying planes in KSP is odd... you need an autopilot with altitude and direction control, and a way to fast forward until you're at the location you want
---Logclosed Tue Dec 29 08:40:03 2015
---Logopened Tue Dec 29 08:54:50 2015
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 29 09:11:09 2015
---Logopened Tue Dec 29 09:13:19 2015
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09:13<V453000>NewGRF files
09:13<V453000>"mods"
09:13<Wolf01>downloadable content
09:13<debdog>ok
09:13<V453000>DLC XD
09:13<@peter1138>£4.99 per pack
09:13<@peter1138>£9.99 for basesets though
09:16<debdog>I wouldn't mind doing manually as long as the orders are copied.
09:16<Wolf01>orders are already copied also in the base game, you only need a bit of attention
09:16<debdog>like, send all trains into depots, replace railways with another type and each depo that has trains in it opens a window where I can replace the engine and wagons manually but the orders would stay the same
09:17<debdog>I can do that if there's only one train inside the depot, yes
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09:18<debdog>but what if there's more than one? I'd need a depot for each train plus, beforehand converting the rails, I'd need to sort of arrange this situation somehow
09:19<V453000>if you use universal rail, you convert whole network to universal rail, autoreplace to whatever you want, and then convert to the final track type ... or keep universal if you like it XD
09:20<debdog>also: https://wiki.openttd.org/Convert_rail#Tips "Note that you can only convert one train at a time using this method, but you may also convert the empty depot back to the old railtype so you can convert another train using the same depot. " convert it back?
09:20<debdog>I'd need to have two tracks of different types as well
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09:21<debdog>ok, I'll have a look at the GRFs
09:23<@Alberth>don't simply upgrade existing track and continue the game
09:24<@Alberth>the entire upgrade is then mostly a no-op, better find a newgrf that doesn't force you to upgrade in that case
09:24<@Alberth>I always start building new tracks with the new railtype, possibly eventually replacing existing routes
09:24<@Alberth>it's much more fun playing that way
09:26<debdog>TBH I'd love to stay on std. electrified rails. but right now the engines for those are being removed over time
09:28<@Alberth>indeed, default set forces you to upgrade :(
09:33<V453000>I like replacing to various kinds of things in NUTS :)
09:36<@peter1138>iceweasel, 850MB resident, 20.2G virtual... well done
09:37<@peter1138>monodevelop, 2.4G res, 5.5GB virt
09:37<@peter1138>bloatware :(
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10:42<Rob0817>hi @ all. does anyone know how to include DB SET XL on a dedicated linux server
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10:45<Rob0817>in other words: how to include newgrf files that are not downloadable.
10:47<@Alberth>manually install them, as explained in the readme, and probably the wiki
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10:48<@Alberth>note that most likely you won't get many users, many already fail to understand the download content, let alone manual install procedures
10:49<@Alberth>"manual install" mostly means "copy it into the right spot", in a "newgrf" directory iirc
10:51<Rob0817>the file is in the right place i think. but how does the server recocnice the new grf file
10:53<@Alberth>simplest solution is to make a map or scenario at a desktop, and load that in the server
10:54<@Alberth>alternatively, setup newgrfs etc at the desktop, and copy the openttd.cfg file
10:54<@Alberth>remember to replace windows \ to / in newgrf paths
10:55<@Alberth>oh, and copy it after shutting down the server, as server exit will write the openttd.cfg
10:55<Rob0817>thanks for your help. we will try this.
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11:40<Wolf01>oh, nice... i can't rotate a rectangle :|
11:41<Wolf01>i'm so happy :|
11:41<@peter1138>Rotate it 180°
11:41<Wolf01>thank you
11:42<Wolf01>i need to figure out how to rotate it 90° without doing weird things with vectors
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11:52<Wolf01>o/
11:53<andythenorth>Wolf01: are you drawing the rectangle, or is it a bitmap?
11:53<Wolf01>drawing
11:53<Wolf01>bitmaps are easy
11:53<andythenorth>is the shape in any kind of container?
11:53<Wolf01>the bounding box, used for collisions
11:53<andythenorth>I would separate concerns
11:54<andythenorth>1 set of shape definitions, in an xy space oriented conventionally
11:54<andythenorth>i.e. x goes left-right, y goes top-bottom or so
11:54<andythenorth>then I would define a rotation on some kind of container
11:54<andythenorth>and patch the shape drawing routine, then use trig to move all the points
11:55<andythenorth>possibly there’s a way to do it using matrix transformations, but I’d use trig, and just iterate each x,y pair in the shape :P
11:55<andythenorth>you need ideas from someone like Eddi to do it ‘properly’ :)
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11:56<andythenorth>or rasterise the shape at compile time, and just rotate the bitmap :P
11:57<Wolf01>i don't really need to draw it, it's just for debug purpose, the main problem is to have the right sizes when checking for collisions
11:59<andythenorth>“trig solves all game problems”
11:59<andythenorth>all / most /s
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, i would try to help you, but i'm unfortunately gone.
12:00<Wolf01>i'm gone too, my brain exploded trying to figure out how to handle the internal coordinates system
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12:06<debdog>ok guys, had a trial with Universal Rail Type and it worked quite well. thanks for the hint
12:11<andythenorth>Wolf01: it’s just triangles :D
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13:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27483 /trunk/src/lang (esperanto.txt norwegian_bokmal.txt) (2015-12-29 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:48<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:48<@DorpsGek>norwegian (bokmal): 1 change by cuthbert
13:48<@DorpsGek>esperanto: 1 change by LaPingvino
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14:48<Aphid>Does anyone have up-to-date information about the 'conversion rates' of ECS industries? E.g. the wiki notes that glass is 1t coal & 2t sand => 5t glass.
14:57<Aphid>I'm not entirely sure about them either... am I supposed to use the 'construction' vector? hmm...
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15:10<Aphid>I've also managed to do something weird; created an empty array that is at the same time not an empty array.
15:19<Aphid>Squirrel question then. If I create an empty array, then append zero or more elements to it using its 'append' function. After this, how can ''if(myArray == [] || myArray.len == 0)' return false, yet trying to access a random element return 'the index 0 does not exist' (which only happens logically upon accessing a random element of an empty array)?
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15:31<@Rubidium>is it an array or a dictionary?
15:33<Aphid>local types = []; <-- that should be an array right?
15:44<Aphid>I think I may have realized what's going on here. 'types == []' will check if 'types' points to the same memory location as a locally created array '[]' does, which it will never do, so this is 'always false'. Then, 'types.len' is actually the memory location of the function 'len', and not the length of 'types'.
15:44<Aphid>So 'types.len() == 0' works
15:47<Aphid>So in ECS, can you have at most 'x' tourists on the map, where x is the sum of the max. productions of each of the 7 'tourists centre' layouts?
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15:54<Aphid>Hmm... so if I just say 'transport x%' of generated tourists, no roadblocks happen.
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16:33<Wolf01>'night
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21:37<Keridos>what does affect the acceleration of trains, tractive effort or power?
21:59*debdog is not an expert but isn't the one conditional to the other? well, with the force transmission in between
22:04<debdog>power as in energy or as in energy/time
22:04<debdog>?
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22:46<Keridos>the horse power debdog
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23:48<Flygon>Keridos: It's... 'simple'
23:48<Flygon>Tractive effort is the raw accleeration effortavilable
23:48<Flygon>effort available*
23:49<Flygon>Top speed is... erm, top speed
23:49<Flygon>Power is what controls if you can reach the top speed with a heavy enough load
23:49<Flygon>So if you lack enough power
23:49<Flygon>You can't hit the top speed for a load you have
23:49<Flygon>In addition, at higher speeds
23:49<Flygon>More power lets you accelerate easier
23:50<Flygon>Tractive effort has the most effect at lower speeds
23:50<Flygon>Like, if you have a freight only line
23:50<Flygon>You might just run 60-80km/h stuff with a single Steam Locomotive for each 6-12 tile long freight
23:50<Flygon>With very high TE, and mid-high HP, but low top speed
23:50<Flygon>To save on money
23:51<Flygon>Because that helps get you off the ground from a stop
23:51<Flygon>Should handle hills
23:51<Flygon>And speed isn't a factor with 2CC set freight wagons anyway :U
23:51<Flygon>Anyway, I'll let other more competent people field this
23:51<Flygon>But, tl;dr
23:51<Flygon>Tractive Effort = Acceletion Effort from Low Speeds
23:52<Flygon>Power = Helps you reach the vehicle's top speed, can affect acceleration closer to the top speed.
23:53<sim-al2>Power is the energy applied per time, opposing energy wasted in drag and overcoming hills
23:54<sim-al2>Going faster takes more and more power, and results in more drag
---Logclosed Wed Dec 30 00:00:42 2015