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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-12-30

---Logopened Wed Dec 30 00:00:42 2015
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00:08<Flygon>sim: Yeah
00:08<Flygon>Was just trying to explain it within gameplay terms
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05:29<__ln__>precisely on time
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05:30<Wolf01>like a wizard
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>maybe 11:38 would have been funnier :p
05:32<Wolf01>usually when i look at the clock i see 11:38 or 13:37 or 22:22
05:33<Zuu>I just made an elevator screenshot and accidently got 222,000 bucks: (testing with max floorrange set to 3)
05:34<Zuu>I probably will re-do the grapihcs so the elevator car can be visible, but for now made a top and a bottom piece that fit with the current graphics to work on the code part of editing and simulating elevators.
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>i once paid 33,33€ at the store
05:35<__ln__>where's the emergency stairway?
05:35<Zuu>__ln__: Not implemented yet. On the other hand fire is neither implemented. :-)
05:36<Zuu>And there is a feature(?) that you can remove rooms below other rooms. But thanksfully there are no agents yet that can get stuck in the sky. :-)
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05:47<Wolf01>mmmh, stupid rectangles
05:47<@Alberth>use circles instead?
05:49<Wolf01>i set the position of the object with absolute coordinates, the object has the origin in another point instead of the top-left corner, the bounding box should be moved again in place because the rectangle starts drawing from top-left corner while circles start from the origin -.-
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get what can be so complicated there
05:50<Wolf01>all the additions and subtractions to do
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>just calculate (corner-origin)
05:51<Wolf01>i always mistake the signs
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>always do one step at a time
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>don't "simplify" the formulas
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: always do (end-beginning)
05:52<Wolf01>i'll extend Rectangle to give the origin and the size instead of top-left and size, so i won't bother about it anymore
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a transformation you should do in a constructor
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>or a factory method
05:54<Wolf01>too bad i have to change the signature because overloading won't work with same number or type of parameters
05:55<Wolf01>i would like to use the constructor
05:56<Wolf01>just to keep coherence
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'd suggest you take a step back and revisit some design decisions
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06:10<@Alberth>compute bounding box from the rectangle object?
06:11<Wolf01>the bb is the Rectangle object
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06:13<andythenorth>“It’s turtles all the way down"
06:13<andythenorth>or something
06:14<andythenorth>if you have a stack of co-ordinates in *signed* x,y pairs, then you can stick them in an array / list and just walk the list
06:14<andythenorth>[(-1, 0), (2, 10), (-7, -14)] etc
06:14<andythenorth>and they’ll resolve cleanly
06:15<andythenorth>any given x,y point in any shape in your hierarchy is just part of a stack
06:15<Wolf01>i know, that is how the framework's bounding box work, but i need to calculate them first
06:16<andythenorth>is the problem finding the first pair (offsets for a point in the shape, from loc)?
06:16<Wolf01>i'm looking to use vectors instead of rectangles
06:17<Wolf01>so i can easily rotate the bounding box
06:17<andythenorth>potato / potato imho :)
06:17<andythenorth>rectangle + trig = same result
06:18*andythenorth ponders making an eddi-bot
06:18-!-andythenorth is now known as eddi-bot
06:18<eddi-bot>“probably your architecture is wrong"
06:18<eddi-bot>“assemble a tree and use a recursive function”
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06:19*andythenorth misses games programming
06:19<Wolf01>the bounding box can only be created with a list of vectors, so i'm stuck with vectors (which i extracted from the rectangle)
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06:21<andythenorth>vector is a pair of: distance, angle?
06:21<Wolf01>yes, or just the coordinates of the point
06:21<Wolf01>which automatically converts to distance and angle relative to the origin
06:22*andythenorth wonders if a paste would help
06:22<andythenorth>is it isolated code, or is there a lot of boilerplate and such to understand?
06:23<Wolf01>i'm just using the framework functions, the only code i have right now is "Rectangle r = new Rectangle((int)_position.X, (int)_position.Y, (int)_size.X, (int)_size.Y);"
06:23<Wolf01>which misses the offset
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i still think your problem is really trivial...
06:24<Wolf01>eddi, i know at least 4 different ways of doing this thing, but each one has its downsides and i need
06:25<Wolf01>*because i need to transform it to a different one in different places
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>rule #1 applies: if your solution is not clean and elegant, it's probably wrong
06:25*Wolf01 -> frozen fingers
06:25<andythenorth>rule #2: rule #1 often can’t be applied
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: so just implement a bunch of get/set functions that handle the different transformations
06:26<Wolf01>that's what i'm doing
06:26<andythenorth>in > 15 years of being around software, rule #1 always fails somewhere around the 80% point :P
06:26<andythenorth>usable software entails lots of inelegance
06:26<@Alberth>reality is very buggy :p
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: if the set/get functions are more than 3 LOC, they're probably wrong
06:27<@Rubidium>andythenorth: isn't rule #1 more like "third time is a charm"?
06:27<@Alberth>or perhaps, our understanding of reality is
06:27<andythenorth>Rubidium: I could +1 to that
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06:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: shouldn't that be rule #3 instead?
06:29<Wolf01>the main problem is that i'm uncertain on how to write this thing, when to compute things, when to cache them, how many variables do i need
06:29<andythenorth>don’t cache them
06:29<andythenorth>your game’s not multiplayer?
06:30<Wolf01>yes, it will be multiplayer
06:30<andythenorth>ok :)
06:30<Wolf01>and i'll expect headaches with lag hiding
06:30<andythenorth>I would deal with the caching later
06:30<andythenorth>do the minimum to make it work
06:31<andythenorth>you need an architecture teddy bear
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: all those things are implementation details, not design decisions
06:31<andythenorth>architecture teddy bear says: “don’t worry about the best implementation, just write something, it’s only a game"
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the object should behave the same, no matter whether the set/get function read caches or calculate on the spot
06:32<andythenorth>I’ve made / seen made games with multi-million play counts, made in the most basic way by people who have no comp sci. training at all :)
06:32<andythenorth>Wolf01: how many rectangles do you have? o_O
06:33<andythenorth>or rather, how many sizes of rectangle?
06:33<Wolf01>infinite, i couldn't know the size of the object, i could calculate it on game loading, but the object will keep the same size for the entire game
06:34<Wolf01>but it can rotate with 90° steps
06:34<Wolf01>so the bounding box need to change accordingly
06:35*andythenorth wondered if it could be hard-coded, come back to it later
06:35<andythenorth>probably not
06:36<Wolf01>so, restarting from scratch, i have a position of the origin and the offset, then i have a bounding box and a sprite which might not be exactly of the same size of the bounding box
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: here's what i would do: 1) in the constructor, "normalize" the rectangle to (corner+size), 2) set/get functions do the calculations, no caching
06:37<andythenorth>origin for this object, or global origin? o_O
06:37<andythenorth>so what determines the size of the bb, if not the sprite size?
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure what purpose the "origin" has
06:37<Wolf01>also i have a more system wide global origin, because the map has a offset since it's not screen-aligned
06:38<andythenorth>sounds standard
06:38<andythenorth>you’re using the origin as the center of rotation?
06:39<Wolf01>the origin of the object is needed to center things on the object, like the sprite (which need to be rotated in the center instead of the top-left corner), the point of the gun which is centered on one side of the sprite
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06:40<andythenorth>usually the origin would also be the location point of the object in the parent co-ordinate space
06:40<andythenorth>and the centre of rotation
06:40<andythenorth>so what gives you the bb size?
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>so origin is a random point within (or maybe outside) the rectangle?
06:40<Wolf01>when i spawn new tanks, i give the tile, and the tank must spawn in the middle of that tile
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>or always the center?
06:41<Wolf01>the origin should always be the center, the only things with doesn't have it at the center are the GUI elements
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>why are gui elements different?
06:42<Wolf01>because they are drawn on screen and not on the playground
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>so, gui elements should be completely different objects, or you should eliminate this difference
06:44<Wolf01>also i'll need a viewport, because now the playground is little, but it might be a lot bigger
06:45<Wolf01>i would keep them different
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, calculating the center from the corner and size is just center = corner+size/2, and the other way around is corner=center-size/2
06:45<andythenorth>in principle, moving the origin is no big deal, at least when I was writing flash games, it’s just a mutable property
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>(like i said: trivial)
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>(interestingly, "size" can also be a negative number and this still works)
06:50<Wolf01><andythenorth> so what gives you the bb size? <- usually it is slightly bigger than the sprite up to the tile size, if i'll need precise collision checking i'll add a mask
06:51<andythenorth>stepping back, do you actually need to draw this rect, or is it for the collision detection calculation?
06:51<Wolf01>at the moment it's used for both
06:51<Wolf01>but i'll keep it only for debug as i'll switch to the internal bounding box system which uses vectors
06:52<Wolf01>(the list of coordinates)
06:52<Wolf01>i could even have an octagonal bounding box
06:53<Wolf01>but i prefer to use rectangles :P
06:53<__ln__>@seen DorpsGek
06:53<@DorpsGek>__ln__: I have not seen DorpsGek.
06:54<andythenorth>you know that for 90º rotation of rectangles, you can just switch x, y for points?
06:54<andythenorth>it only works for limited case of rects, not a general solution
06:55<Wolf01>i could just multiply the movement vector normalized
06:55<__ln__>you probably mean °, not º
06:55<andythenorth>yeah, that again
06:56<andythenorth>ok, so your rect is specified as origin, size pairs
06:56<andythenorth>so you likely want to calculate all the corners and transform them?
06:56*andythenorth was reading up
06:56<Wolf01>yes, sort of
06:57<Wolf01>i don't know if it's the right way, but that was my idea
06:57<andythenorth>it’s how I would do it
06:58<andythenorth>is there a general shape / lining drawing method?
06:58<andythenorth>the rect looks like a specialised convenience method
06:58<andythenorth>usually, something like polygon(points)
06:58<Wolf01>i have a boilerplate to draw lines and geometric figures, as i can only draw sprites
06:59<Wolf01>and each line is made up from 1px*1px sprite stretched
06:59<andythenorth>ha ha
07:00<andythenorth>hax :D
07:00<Wolf01>a week ago it was there
07:00<Wolf01>oh he changed the uri
07:04<andythenorth>Wolf01: I leave you to it :) But have you drawn it out? I always use paper and pencil for solving geometry / trig problems in games.
07:04<Wolf01>i have a school book for that
07:08<Wolf01>it is really big:
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07:46<Wolf01>nice, i removed the drawing offsets and it is drawn in the opposite corner XD
07:59<Wolf01>i think that the problem is due to the drawing coordinates which are absolute, while everything other is relative to the object, so i'm trying to do stupid fixes instead of getting the sprite drawing correctly
08:02<Wolf01>i might get rid of this by using more sprite batches
08:02<Wolf01>and then rendering the batch with offset instead of inserting in the batch with offset
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think you need to think more and program less
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08:25<andythenorth>local-to-global stuff is always a bit wtf
08:26<andythenorth>I would define all the shapes separate from their drawing
08:26<andythenorth>it’s a bit boilerplate heavy, but easier to work with
08:27<Wolf01>i removed all the global offset layer now, i'll move the playground with a viewport as soon as i understand how to draw things outside of it
08:27<andythenorth>and I would define all the points as polygon vertices, relative to the origin of the current shape
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10:08<Keridos>when doing a fast passenger route with maglevs, do i really need 2 rails in each direction?
10:08<Keridos>my maglevs konstantly break down, even if renewed
10:23<Wolf01>they don't have enough reliability
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10:25<Keridos>hm i see that I have only access to two maglevs
10:25<Keridos>there is pretty much no point in them this way
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10:33<@planetmaker>Keridos, amount of tracks per direction depends very much on how much usage those track see
10:34<@planetmaker>And whether maglev is worth the upgrade or not ... depends on available trains. And whether the speed and possibly reliability is worth the upgrade
10:34<@planetmaker>without any NewGRFs you'll finally end up with 4 different maglev engines
10:34<@planetmaker>and the train engines will eventually become unavailable, thus it will become a necessity to upgrade to maglev eventually
10:41<Keridos>planetmaker: I have 2cc trains and vactubes
10:41<Keridos>saw that I can construct magtubes with 99% reliability
10:42<Keridos>and they drive at 3840 km/h
10:54<@Alberth>quite unbalanced thus :)
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11:03<@Alberth>I wonder if you could correct such things automagically :p
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... so i docked on my satellite with a klaw, but i can't seem to transfer fuel...
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11:16<Keridos>Eddi|zuHause: is that openttd or space engineers? :p
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's called KSP :p
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11:20<Passion_Fruit>I'll cry
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>go ahead then.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>let it all out.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>you'll feel better afterwards
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11:21<Wolf01>poor thing
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause>ah... i figured it out... it's not "alt+click" like the internet suggests, but "right shift+click"
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13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27484 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2015-12-30 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: croatian: 4 changes by UnderwaterHesus
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: english (us): 1 change by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: serbian: 21 changes by stravagante
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
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17:46<Keridos>are there any GRFs that add stuff beyond year 2100 ?
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause>the downside is, that if you add e.g. trains beyond 2100, then all planes, ships and road vehicles will probably disappear
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18:39<Keridos>Eddi|zuHause: is that an openttd limitation?
18:39<Keridos>mh how can i set a train to only deliver a certain quantity?
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>Keridos: it's not really a limitation. it's a side effect
18:40<Keridos>only 256 id?
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>Keridos: openttd looks at when the last vehicle is introduced, and freezes vehicle aging a short time after that, so all vehicles which are available at that time of freezing will stay available
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>if you move the point of freezing by adding more vehicles, more of the earlier vehicles will time out
18:41<Keridos>ah, can I turn that off somehow?
18:41<Keridos>imo that should be a config option
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can only make sure you load vehicle NewGRFs for each type
18:42<Keridos>ah ok, thanks for the info
18:43<Keridos>mmmh Still thinking about a good delivering option for engineering supplies for FIRS
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>there is no option to unload only a part of the cargo
18:43<Keridos>since the industries take an unlimited amount of them apparently
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>you could try cargodist, but it's known to work poorly with supplies
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18:44<Keridos>oh i just turned that off
18:44<Keridos>because at least in asymmetric config it breaks it totally
18:44<Keridos>only 6 stations of my 10 were actually "allowed" to receive them
18:44<Keridos>and 2 were at 600-900 crates per month
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>the way it handles destinations is not optimized for "few sources many destinations"
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>you could try intermediate stations
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>so the number of "next hops" is low at each station
18:48<Keridos>yeah still thinking about how I can distribute it optimally
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>also you can try to have two separate pickup stations
18:48<Keridos>an option to load/unload only a specific amount of cargo would be amazing
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't hold my breath for that feature
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, there was a patch for that like 10 years ago, no idea what happened to that
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 31 00:00:43 2015