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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-16

---Logopened Sat Jan 16 00:00:07 2016
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04:35<Wolf01>o/
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04:48<Wolf01>bah... the Venice-Mestre tram now derails on curved tracks... I'm still of the opinion that a trolleybus was really better for the roads we have here :|
04:57<@Alberth>o/
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07:06<andythenorth>o/
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07:17<andythenorth>cat plays monopoly?
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07:19<Wolf01>no, but it play risk for sure
07:21<Wolf01>ah, andy, yesterday I purchased again the 42009 and 42030 :>
07:22<V453000>cat shits brix
07:22<V453000>machine gun mode atm
07:22<V453000>many brix
07:28<@Alberth>/me orders extra containers to catch all brix
07:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: 42009 really? o_O
07:35<andythenorth>for parts or to build?
07:35<Wolf01>yeah
07:35<andythenorth>both?
07:35<argoneus>have you guys ever used a shared_ptr?
07:35<Wolf01>both
07:35<andythenorth>I didn’t build the crane from 42009
07:36<andythenorth>my kids wanted the B model
07:37<Wolf01>I want to build the b model first, then I'll use them to build a backhoe loader
07:37<andythenorth>the B model is quite good, there is nothing else in technic like it
07:37<andythenorth>but mine shredded a gear inside the boom
07:37<andythenorth>and I cba to fix it
07:38<Wolf01>I think the volvo loader is a bit too big, so I'll order both the front and rear pieces from bricklink
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07:40<@Alberth>argoneus: yep
07:41<argoneus>Alberth: I can't find a usecase
07:41<@Alberth>that's good
07:42<andythenorth>Wolf01: as backoes goe, this one is surprisingly good http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81wKTvNOqQL._SL1500_.jpg
07:42<andythenorth>mostly because it’s really simple, and perfomative
07:42<@Alberth>shared pointers are a bit meh, and should be avoided if possible
07:42<Wolf01>yeah, too bad I missed that one :(
07:43<@Alberth>basically if yo need them, you have an ownership problem with your objects
07:43<@Alberth>*you
07:43<V453000>fuck we are back at lego again
07:43<andythenorth>Wolf01: it’s an easy build from parts :)
07:43<andythenorth>V453000: between that and toy trains, my pixel days are over, eh?
07:43<@Alberth>V: do we ever not talk about lego? :)
07:44<Wolf01>andy, it is, but I miss the excavator and the loader pieces :P
07:44<andythenorth>bricklink ;)
07:45<Wolf01>yes, that's what I'm doing
07:45<andythenorth>I dunno, the Lego foamers on forums get excited about 27 million power functions, gearboxes, or whatever
07:45<andythenorth>but I like the simple models with direct control over functions best
07:46<Wolf01>I like them too, but they are impractical when on the stand where you need to do some show for kids
07:46<Wolf01>so power functions come handy
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07:47<argoneus>Alberth: the only thing I could think of was thread stuff, if multiple threads need access to an object which should then die
07:47<argoneus>but im not sure if they are thread safe
07:47<Wolf01>and sbrick comes more handy, 2 volvo loaders, a truck and a caterpillar all moving together loading and carrying candies to kids
07:47<@Alberth>argoneus: they are not, unless you take care of it
07:47<argoneus>welp
07:47<@Alberth>threads are hardly ever the solution, in my experience
07:49<@Alberth>in my case, I had a bunch of objects that were created, and then given away and used (read-only) to other parts of the code, where it was not clear when the last owner was done with it.
07:49<argoneus>I see
07:50<argoneus>Alberth: shouldn't you pass a non owning ptr in that case though?
07:50<argoneus>and keep it uniquely in the host
07:50<@Alberth>perhaps, but how do you decide nobody uses it then?
07:50<argoneus>ah right
07:50<@Alberth>my objects were all "use once"
07:51<@Alberth>but at various points in the code
07:51<@Alberth>eg like messages that you distribute
07:54<argoneus>Alberth: actually
07:54<argoneus>what usecase is there for pointers in general?
07:54<argoneus>I read somewhere that either when the object is heavy or if you need to defer initialization
07:54<argoneus>otherwise make it on the stack and pass references
07:54<@Alberth>sharing information
07:55<@Alberth>references cannot be null
07:55<@Alberth>ie pointers can express "there is no information"
07:55<argoneus>hm, that makes sense I guess
07:55<argoneus>if a function requires std::list<int>&
07:55<argoneus>you can't pass NULL
07:55<argoneus>or can you?
07:55<argoneus>I can't say I've tried this
07:56<@Alberth>but in modern C++, the need for pointers is highly reduced, you can write most code without ever using a pointer explicitly
07:56<@Alberth>no, a reference needs a proper object
07:56<@Alberth>you can cast stuff to convince the compiler, but it won't do much good
07:59<argoneus>mhm
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08:12<andythenorth>eh? disconnected :P
08:12<andythenorth>nvm
08:13<andythenorth>eh, I just don’t much like this new FIRS economy
08:14<andythenorth>post-colonial
08:14<andythenorth>you have to build your own industries
08:14<andythenorth>maybe I shouldn’t play that with Busy Bee :P
08:15<V453000>xd
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08:28<andythenorth>quak
08:29<frosch123>hoi
08:29<argoneus>ayy
08:31<frosch123>argoneus: think of a shared_ptr as something multiple things need access to, and it is unknown when they are finished
08:32<frosch123>for example a signal/slot thingie in qt or whatever
08:32<frosch123>something can trigger it, others register to it
08:33<frosch123>when receivers are destroyed they need to unregister, similar when the sender is destroyed
08:33<frosch123>so, all of them need to know when each of them is destroyed, and this "still exists" information is shared between them
08:34<frosch123>another example: your browser downloads a zip file with a pdf in it. you want to open it with a pdf viewer, thus the browser extracts the zip to a temporary location
08:35<frosch123>when to delete that temporary location? answer: when all instances of pdf viewers accessing that files exit, and when the reference from the broweser download list is removed
08:35<frosch123>funnily shared_ptrs do not exist for windows file systems
08:36<frosch123>at least in times i was still using windows
08:37<argoneus>hm
08:38<@Alberth>hola
08:39<frosch123>argoneus: so mostly, you need shared_ptrs when programming generically, and you do not know in advance what stuff will be used for, and in what order it will be used
08:50<argoneus>modern c++ actually doesn't look that terrible
08:50<argoneus>it's extremely verbose though
08:50<argoneus>and I don't get why you need ownership, why just refcount isn't enough
08:52<@Alberth>those are different concepts
08:53<argoneus>okay let me rephrase
08:53<@Alberth>ownership is about deciding who can access the data, and more importantly, who can change it
08:53<argoneus>a non-owning pointer can change data too, no?
08:53<argoneus>it's not read-only
08:53<@Alberth>sure
08:53<argoneus>the only thing it can't do is delete the data
08:53<argoneus>but you don't generally delete pointers inside random functions
08:54<argoneus>that's usually up to the destructor
08:54<@Alberth>normally, yes
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08:54<argoneus>so why does it matter which pointer is the "master" pointer and isn't it just simple refcount?
08:54<@Alberth>although if you pass data for processing, it's quite normal to discard it after being done with it
08:56<@Alberth>so you can give away the object to anyone, and everybody can write in it as they like?
08:56<@Alberth>how do you keep consistency?
08:56<argoneus>well, you can give away non-owning pointers and they can write in it anyway
08:56<@Alberth>I may have used some value to base a other computations on, but then someone else changes those values
08:56<@Alberth>making my computation invalid
08:57<@Alberth>yes, ownership is not about the technical ability to write, it's about a set of agreements how to behave
08:57<@Alberth>just like the irc channel
08:57<@Alberth>we can all type here at the same time, yet we don't
08:58<@Alberth>we have an informal set of agreements on how to use the channel
08:58<argoneus>so ownership mostly tells me "okay this function is the one supposed to modify this value" and other pointers can just receive or work with the value but shouldn't be intrusive?
08:58<@Alberth>that's ownership, imho
08:59<@Alberth>you want to have clear at all times who can read what and who can write what
08:59<@Alberth>the easiest solution is to have one owner that handles writing
08:59<@Alberth>ie the owner of the object
08:59<@Alberth>that is thus a very common pattern
09:00<@Alberth>you can invent other patterns, and that's fine, they are just different form of ownerships, different sets of agreement
09:01<@Alberth>refcount is just that nobody deletes the object while you still have it. However, technically, the refcount has no meaning without the ownership agreement that everybody uses the refcount rules
09:02<Wolf01>mmmh 254MB free on the disk
09:02<@Alberth>E_TOO_MUCH_LEGO_STACKED_ON_DISK
09:02<Wolf01>no, too much D&D stacked on disk
09:03<@Alberth>it's not lego, can't be interesting :p
09:03<argoneus>hm, I guess I get the point kinda
09:03<Wolf01>I think I'll go play with lego while it's moving the stuff in the ext drive
09:04<argoneus>try not to step on it
09:04<@Alberth>245mb is a lot of text, it would take a few hours to fill that :p
09:05<Wolf01>it's PDF
09:05<@Alberth>oh, bloaty wrapper crap... pdf2text? :)
09:05<argoneus>looking at some code though, christ
09:06<argoneus>I remember people laughing at java for being too verbose
09:06<argoneus>and then there's c++11 code
09:06<@Alberth>?
09:06<Wolf01>I need the tables and the images, also not everything is recognized by OCR
09:06<argoneus>Alberth: there's container declarations almost longer than 80 cols
09:06<argoneus>or, well, there can be
09:07<@Alberth>unlike Java, you can use typedef in c++ :)
09:07<argoneus>oh, right
09:07<argoneus>I can typedef a map to something more readable
09:07<@Alberth>I do that all the time
09:08<frosch123>argoneus: you need to avoid reference cycles
09:08<argoneus>hm
09:08<argoneus>typedef is a compiler, not a preprocessor token
09:08<argoneus>interesting
09:08<@Alberth>and if you have a smart compiler, it even folds your typedef back in the error messages
09:08<frosch123>not everything can be a ref-counting pointer, else A refers to B, B to C and C to A
09:08<frosch123>and you are stuck
09:09<@Alberth>frosch123: just like shapes with at least 2 eyes in Go, they live forever :)
09:09<argoneus>well, I guess it's time to give C++ a try again
09:09<argoneus>any of you guys used CLion by chance?
09:09<argoneus>or are you mostly linux peeps
09:09<@Alberth>mostly unix, except apple-unix
09:09<@Alberth>here at least
09:32<V453000>why do cantliever and tubular pillar sprites have 2 versions per direction? XD
09:32<V453000>the sprites in original base set do not even have any difference
09:35<@Alberth>the original author is not here, and even if he was, he would probably not remember why :)
09:36<V453000>well yeah but couldn't we make openttd use them differently if they are the same in all so-far-made base sets?
09:39<frosch123>V453000: did you try bridge lengths 4,5,6,7 ?
09:39<frosch123>they have different parts in the middle
09:51<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/bridge-pillars-current.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/bridge-pillars-better.png
09:53<V453000>rest is other sprite
09:53<V453000>for some wtf reason it always is pillar n 1
09:53<frosch123>"better" is 404
09:53<V453000>reason is hard to find because both of the sprites are 100% the same
09:53<V453000>tried with original base set, but I bet ogfx does the same
09:54<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ajAqBBw_460sv.mp4 ahahah
09:54<frosch123>V453000: the original baseset has double pillars
09:55<frosch123>maybe it is important wrt. whether to draw pillars at the bridge start/end
09:55<V453000>but the sprite is the same
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>the 404 is very... escher
09:55<frosch123>i..e sprite 2527 draws a pillar at the south border, but 2528 does not
09:55<V453000>double pillars are not for tubular or cantliever
09:55<frosch123>still, the sprites are associated to tiles
09:56<frosch123>what tile do those sprites belong to
09:56<frosch123>the northern tile may not draw a pillar at the north border (bridge end)
09:56<V453000>how do I know? XD
09:56<frosch123>and the soutern tile may not draw a pillar at the south border (other brdige end)
09:56<V453000>both of the sprites are still identical ._.
09:57<frosch123>thus, if start/end of the bridge are not identical to the other tiles, there must be a different sprite at least at one end of thje bridge
09:57<frosch123>V453000: but maybe different offsets?
09:57<V453000>I think I understand
09:57<V453000>no, exactly the same
09:57<Mazur>Yeah, you gotta watch out for those brdige ends, they can cause havoc.
09:57<frosch123>mabye 2528 is offseted so that it is drawn over the 2527 form the other tile
09:57<V453000>sure but does that change anything?
09:58<frosch123>V453000: ah, i get it
09:58<V453000>ah you mean offset somewhere in game code, not in nml
09:58<frosch123>the thing is: OTTD got smarter around 1.1 or something
09:58<frosch123>it now cuts the sprites in the middle and draws the pilars in different lengths
09:58<V453000>offsets are the first two parameters in template https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pl0lahmdp
09:58<frosch123>you may need to use an older ottd version to see the difference
09:58<V453000>:d aha
10:00<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/images/2/29/Higher_bridges.png <- in older versions you can see which tile draws which pillar
10:00<frosch123>while newer ottd cuts the pillar sprite in the middle to create two fake sprites
10:00<V453000>suspended bridges work differently
10:00<V453000>they do not have this wtf
10:00<V453000>only cantliever and tubular
10:01<frosch123>i would expect sprite 2527 to have a pillar in the south, while sprite 2528 should be empty
10:02<V453000>it is just weird shit. :)
10:03<V453000>but using them like https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/bridge-pillars-better.png would give more freedom to the graphics
10:03<V453000>esp if the difference is not visible in any graphics atm (hence would not break anything)
10:03<V453000>esp if the difference is not visible in any graphics atm (hence would not break anything)
10:05<frosch123>that change is definitely NewBridges stuff :p
10:05<frosch123>nothing for a baseset
10:06<V453000>but it is just swapping 2 identical sprites...
10:06<frosch123>also you change does not work
10:06<V453000>I do not mean on side of newgrf or base set, on openttd side
10:06<frosch123>as said: the most northern tile and most southern tile must draw different sprites
10:06<frosch123>else you have a stall pillar at one end of the brdige
10:06<V453000>k but cant the game take those from the same image?
10:07<frosch123>what you try to achieve does not work with 2 sprites, you would need 4
10:07<V453000>and use the second image for something useful?
10:07<V453000>ok :D lets leave it at that
10:07<andythenorth>hmm, all my industries need to be cartoon-ish, like the copper refinery? o-O
10:07<frosch123>the second image is already used for something useful
10:07<frosch123>namely to not have a stall pillar at the bridge end
10:08<V453000>yes that I understand now
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10:14<drac_boy>hi
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10:30<supermop>yo
10:30<@Alberth>oi
10:30<supermop>andythenorth: agave in firs?
10:31<drac_boy>hows you two?
10:31<supermop>plant fibers, sugar, alcohol, fruit, or some selection thereof?
10:31<supermop>alright i quit my job
10:32<V453000>:d
10:34<andythenorth>hmm
10:34<supermop>trying to draw a little agave/maguey sprite that could replace a cactus and show up on a plantation
10:35<supermop>i just got back from a week and a half in mexico, and had lots of mexcal and pulque
10:35<supermop>no tequila though
10:35<argoneus>some teacher from my uni just told me he's impressed with my iOS skills
10:35<argoneus>...I've never done anything with iOS
10:35<@Alberth>lol
10:35<supermop>argoneus: did he see you using an iphone?
10:35<argoneus>supermop: I've never owned or even touched a single apple product
10:36<@Alberth>so either he has very low standards, or he wants something from you :p
10:36<argoneus>he posted some sort of programming quiz on our school's fb group
10:36<argoneus>and I filled it because I was bored
10:36<argoneus>and I guess he assumes I know iOS from my responses
10:36<@Alberth>you mean there are other systems???
10:36<@Alberth>:)
10:36<supermop>well you probably could figure out how to use an ipad, and maybee that's all he wants
10:36<argoneus>well
10:36<argoneus>it's a teacher at my uni who teaches iOS
10:36<argoneus>and owns a startup
10:37<supermop>needs seed funnding and/or cheap devs
10:37<argoneus>probably the latter lmao
10:37<argoneus>what is seed funding actually
10:38<@Alberth>you talking about him at random places
10:38<argoneus>oy
10:39<supermop>andythenorth: agave could replace sugar cane in arid areas, but unfortunately any map with a desert will also have tropics, so maybe pointless
10:39<andythenorth>yair
10:39*andythenorth needs a manor house type building or similar
10:39<andythenorth>for a vineyard
10:39<@Alberth>castle!
10:39<supermop>but mezcal is good and agave plants would look cute in arid inland mountains
10:39<andythenorth>where can I steal a sprite from
10:40<supermop>i guess in tropic all mountains are rainforests
10:40<supermop>andythenorth: french? colonial? english? spanish?
10:40<andythenorth>has to work for any
10:40<andythenorth>generic mediterranean style
10:41<andythenorth>would do
10:41<supermop>i guess generic Mediterranean would fit the most number of wine producing areas
10:41<andythenorth>maybe I can adapt the grain mill
10:41<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#grain_mill
10:41<supermop>lots of guys in napa valley build med. style houses
10:42<andythenorth>needs to look different to this though http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#coffee_estate
10:42<supermop>less so in auz
10:42<supermop>should look more stately than coffee one
10:42<drac_boy>if I had to pick an existing phone-ready mobile os..hm well..I would have had to say android
10:42<supermop>they've got to put in on the bottle lable!
10:42<drac_boy>to our own on that tho
10:43<andythenorth>supermop: agreed
10:43<supermop>do you have a wine with a house on the label at hand?
10:43<supermop>all of mine here have modernist or hipstery designs on them
10:44<supermop>i kind of tired of french wine though, and only have s. american and australian
10:44<supermop>why pay $$$
10:45<@Alberth>it casts lots of $$$, it must be good?
10:45<supermop>http://static1.squarespace.com/static/55d505bde4b036ba5df7cc15/t/55f4742de4b07856e0072036/1442083890843/Sherry+Valdespino+tasting.jpg
10:46<supermop>more italian ones are less symmetrical
10:46<supermop>ideally, base set would have a mansion, and you would just reference that
10:46<supermop>and then region specific house sets could replace it
10:47<supermop>so you could get a manor in the style of whatever house set you use
10:49<supermop>just use the grain mill for now
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11:00<andythenorth>maybe I should worry less about the buildings
11:00<andythenorth>and more about the vines
11:00<andythenorth>currently it uses trees :P
11:00<supermop>haha
11:00<supermop>can make wine out of apples
11:01<supermop>most people would call it cider though
11:02<andythenorth>hmm
11:02<andythenorth>so now I have a feature for FIRS 2.0: ‘removed Heart of Darkness’ economy
11:02<drac_boy>apple + glass = food :)
11:02<andythenorth>and no replacement :(
11:03<andythenorth>balls
11:07<andythenorth>anyone prepared to play test FIRS for me?
11:08<andythenorth>this economy too big, too blah http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#hopes_and_impediments
11:16<ConductorCat>:3
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11:21<supermop>sure i'll try
11:22<andythenorth>it’s got a ‘post-colonial’ idea that 50% of the industries aren’t available at map gen
11:22<andythenorth>I think that’s dumb for gameplay, and I’m about to scrap it :P
11:22<andythenorth>supermop: ^
11:23<@Alberth>that's a new experience for industry sets :)
11:24<andythenorth>scrapping it?
11:24<andythenorth>or 50% of industries missing :P
11:29<@Alberth>missing industries
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11:30<supermop>andythenorth: is this in nightly?
11:30<andythenorth>yea, but I am changing it :P
11:31<andythenorth>hmm
11:31<andythenorth>we only have RHS “ chars in game :P
11:31<andythenorth>partial smart quote?
11:31<supermop>four agaves per tile or 16?
11:32<andythenorth>really there’s no char for LH quote mark? :o
11:32<supermop>also do farms control the animation of crops? or does it alwas take the same amount of time for a tile to mature?
11:33<supermop>i guess non-grain fields can't be real fields so doesn't matter
11:33<andythenorth>yes
11:34<@Alberth>use unicode?
11:36*andythenorth wonders if the char is present in original baseset font
11:37<andythenorth>eh, the in-game license viewer uses plain " chars
11:38<andythenorth>maybe there's a way :(
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>what font do you use?
11:40<andythenorth>TTD base set
11:42<andythenorth>hmm
11:42*andythenorth cuts out the post-colonial history lesson from FIRS
11:42<andythenorth>definitely better
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11:52<drac_boy>going eat now so bye :)
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12:06<andythenorth>anyone feel like doing a West African town names grf?
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12:09<@Alberth>pop up a warning "no west-african town names detected" whenever you start firs :p
12:12<andythenorth>how hard is a town names grf?
12:12*andythenorth doesn't want another project :P
12:21<@Alberth>not
12:22<@Alberth>find a list of names, wrap some blurb text around it, throw it at nml, done
12:23<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_cities_in_Africa
12:23<andythenorth>:P
12:24<andythenorth>ho, this even http://fantasynamegenerators.com/west-african-town-names.php#.Vpp8lXiLj7U
12:25<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/dutchtowns/repository/entry/dtnames.nml
12:25<@Alberth>for advanced uses, you can have a sequence of parts, eg common suffixes
12:26<@Alberth>or common prefixes, or both
12:26<@Alberth>ie action F without the stupid limits :p
12:33<andythenorth>so I have 330 names :P
12:33*andythenorth should read some dutchtowns code
12:35*andythenorth checks FIRS
13:01*andythenorth wonders why FIRS didn't build :|
13:04<@Alberth>https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/firs/960/console
13:22<andythenorth>yair
13:22<andythenorth>"that's not valid python"
13:22<frosch123>is it a colubrid?
13:24*andythenorth tries again
13:24<supermop>damn it i am halfway across this 1024 map and i've only got the bronx part of my pelham line done
13:28<supermop>that's with making everything short and stubby too
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13:33<andythenorth>supermop: if you want to try this :) …. http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
13:34<andythenorth>specifically http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#in_a_hot_country
13:35<supermop>going to get lunch first
13:37<andythenorth>ok :)
13:37*andythenorth not sure about iron ore
13:38<andythenorth>it's already in 2 other economies, and I've got a possible Australian economy in mind, where it will be needed
13:38*andythenorth considers uranium
13:38<andythenorth>there was some reason I didn't want to do that before :P
13:38<andythenorth>can't remember it
13:38<supermop>idk iron seems to be a bit of a big deal
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13:39<supermop>perennial favorite with people for the last 10-20 thousnd years
13:39<andythenorth>channel search is broken :D http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/search?count=5000&q=uranium
13:40<supermop>i always thought that the issue with nuclear fuel in game was less anything political, and more, so little of it gets moved around so seldomly
13:41<supermop>no fun to refuel a power plant with a 1-car train once every 2 years
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13:42<supermop>without electricity in game you can't even rationalize that as a benefit ("at least I don't need to clog up my rails with long coal trains to still get power!")
13:43<@Alberth>driving at 5km/h :)
13:43<supermop>i mean i love weird overzealous timetabling, so i would schedule a train once every other year, but i don't know how station or industries in game would understand that
13:44<supermop>CD would drop link between processing plant and power station
13:44<@planetmaker>haha, that would make for awesome wagon speed limits: 80 or 120 km/h usually. Except for uranium, then it's 5km/h :P
13:44<@planetmaker>so much for the dreaded r-word
13:44<andythenorth>oh yeah, it's the stupid low volumes
13:44<andythenorth>but it could be done in flasks or whatever
13:44<andythenorth>instead of tonnes
13:44<supermop>you can't run it at night either - it's always rushhour in ottd land
13:45<@planetmaker>that doesn't make it really better, andythenorth
13:45<andythenorth>because...?
13:45<supermop>andythenorth: its still like 5 flasks per decade
13:45<andythenorth>I was delivering it to ports :)
13:46<andythenorth>and I don't think input amounts to black holes matter in this game much anyway
13:46<supermop>unless the power company is paying you to run decoys regularly as well
13:46<andythenorth>2000 tonnes of cement to your hardware store?
13:46<andythenorth>no problem
13:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I doubt the uranium quay is in heavy use at any port
13:46<@Alberth>isn't industry like diamond mines having that low production? (or gold or so?)
13:46<@planetmaker>yes, they do
13:46<andythenorth>diamonds have <100 bags / month
13:46<andythenorth>as valuables
13:46<andythenorth>I find them a bit boring tbh
13:46<andythenorth>but uranium could be same
13:47<supermop>maybe a local dam builder buys all his cement at the hardware store
13:47<andythenorth>but it doesn't encourage long trains etc
13:47<andythenorth>1 flask of uranium per vehicle?
13:50<supermop>although there is no crime, terrorism, or war in openttd world, so you don't need to heavily guard it
13:52<V453000>join yeti in uranium :D
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13:56<supermop>what to get for lunch
14:00<andythenorth>cheese
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14:17<@Alberth>bread
14:17<@Alberth>butter is nice too
14:21<andythenorth>spiral concentrators for sand mining http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/039/902/686/686902039_839.jpg
14:21<andythenorth>a bit wtf looking
14:22<@peter1138>wtf
14:22<@Alberth>looks awesome :)
14:24<andythenorth>http://www.muinebeach.net/Vietnam-black_sand-radiation-titanium-uranium-ilmenite-monazite-rutile-zircon.htm
14:25<andythenorth>floating on barges for lagoon dredging
14:25<andythenorth>http://www.electrum.com.au/images/portfo/5.png
14:25<andythenorth>(illegal dredging apparently)
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14:32<@Alberth>heart of darkness all over again :(
14:33<sim-al2>But default OTTD does have those armored vans for valuables....
14:34<andythenorth>this one is pretty serious http://www.tizir.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/untitled3.png
14:35<__ln__>and it's a png
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14:45*andythenorth wonders about ilmenite mine
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15:46*andythenorth needs one more kind of import / export industry
15:46<andythenorth>got Bulk Terminal, Port, Trading Post currently
15:48<andythenorth>could do a petro-chemical terminal, but it's basically same as oil refinery
15:48<andythenorth>oil in, petrol, chemicals out
15:48<andythenorth>or petrol, chemicals in, nothing out
15:52<andythenorth>could do 'deepwater terminal', but eh
15:52<andythenorth>or 'quay'
15:52<andythenorth>when translated, the difference between those and 'bulk terminal' or 'port' might be meaningless
15:54<andythenorth>I could do a totally generic 'merchant'
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>do an economy that is only import-export, no producing industry.
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>and all the industries cluster at one point of the map
15:57<frosch123>Add an exploration camp
15:57<frosch123>accepts food, tools and glass
15:58<frosch123>supplies gold and diamonds
15:58<andythenorth>frosch123: I quite like that :D
15:58<andythenorth>the diamond mines are boring
15:58<andythenorth>prospectors camp
15:58<andythenorth>maybe conflates with 'prospecting'
15:59<andythenorth>'import / export merchant' ? :P
15:59<andythenorth>seems bland
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>simulate the office of the bank guy who gets the diamonds from the miners and pays them
15:59<andythenorth>yeah
15:59<andythenorth>was going to do that
15:59<andythenorth>but it's just a boring black hole?
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's the source of the diamonds, not the destination.
16:01<andythenorth>oic :)
16:03<andythenorth>still, where do they go? :)
16:03<frosch123>girls
16:04<andythenorth>diamons -> merchant -> wives?
16:04<andythenorth>are wives a cargo?
16:04<frosch123>don't add a merchant that supplies wives :/
16:05<frosch123>add a "wedding fair"
16:06<andythenorth>this economy gets interesting
16:06<andythenorth>what to call it?
16:06<frosch123>though judging your excessive chemical usage
16:06<frosch123>how about delivering diamonds to the glass works :p
16:06<frosch123>for cutting the glass
16:07<andythenorth>industrial diamonds?
16:08<frosch123>you mean, deliver coal to diamond plants instead of power plants? :p
16:08<andythenorth>ho
16:08<frosch123>removes another blackhole :p
16:08<andythenorth>such many ideas :)
16:08<supermop>my fiance just bought a wedding dress for $65
16:09<andythenorth>wedding dress cargo
16:09<supermop>i don't think i can find a suit for that price outside of vietnam
16:09<frosch123>supermop: sounds like barbie size
16:10<frosch123>here you rent wedding dresses for 1/3 of the purchase price
16:10<supermop>$65 sounds still cheaper
16:10<frosch123>you just need to be rational enough to not want to keep it
16:10<andythenorth>supermop: try vietnam?
16:11<frosch123>$65 sounds wrong :p
16:11<supermop>i never understood those $2000+ dresses
16:11<supermop>i can sort of understand a suit that much if it is bespoke hand made, but even then
16:11<supermop>(and i don't mind expensive clothes)
16:12<frosch123>you don't mass produce dresses
16:12<frosch123>you need to offer a lot of choice, but do not sell many of each at all
16:12<frosch123>that makes the production very inefficient
16:12<supermop>andythenorth: no time to go back before wedding. closest ill get is taiwan and hk in june
16:12<andythenorth>my wedding suit came from HK
16:13<andythenorth>wasn't $65 though
16:13<supermop>frosch123: i understand that part, but i never really like those dresses from a fashion or style standpoint either
16:16<supermop>my grandma got married in a suit that she just wore to the office most days
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>studies have shown that cost of the wedding is reciprocal to length of the wedding
16:16<@Alberth>:)
16:16<supermop>but that was in 1949, and they had no ceremony
16:16<frosch123>interesting study :)
16:17<andythenorth>mine was 4 days :P
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i meant length of the marriage
16:17<andythenorth>as yet unproven, in my case
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>reversely, number of people attending is proportional to length
16:19<andythenorth>hmm
16:19<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Factories
16:19<andythenorth>'merchants'
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16:21<Trollebas>Heloy
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
16:22<andythenorth>'merchants', 'merchants pier', 'merchants landing' ?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what are those supposed to do?
16:23<andythenorth>accept / produce high value cargos
16:23<frosch123>andythenorth: contraband bay
16:23<andythenorth>diamonds, gold, goods etc
16:23<andythenorth>'smugglers' :D
16:23<andythenorth>ha ha
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16:23<frosch123>yeah, smugglers for high-value, low-volume cargos
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: three chinese with a contraband? :p
16:24<frosch123>maybe contraband is AE, no idea, andy may know better
16:24<frosch123>i thought 'smugglers' was too german
16:24<andythenorth>smuggles smuggle contraband
16:25<frosch123>ah, ok :)
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>contraband is the product being smuggled, not the smugglers
16:25<frosch123>anyway, it may allow you do create some distinguishable graphics
16:25<frosch123>instead of yet another generic port :p
16:26<andythenorth>merchants and smugglers separate?
16:26<andythenorth>one gives more goods back than the other :P
16:27*andythenorth will think on
16:28<andythenorth>'pirates'
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16:29<andythenorth>generic ports are boring
16:29<andythenorth>bbl or tomorrow
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue where you're going with this...
16:29<andythenorth>economy that exports a lot of primary cargo
16:30<andythenorth>and imports most tertiary cargo
16:30<andythenorth>and some secondary
16:30<andythenorth>to make it work, needs export / import industries
16:30<andythenorth>ports instead of refineries, processorts etc
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19:38<Wolf01>'night
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19:40<Hydros>evening
19:40<Hydros>anyone around?
19:44<Mazur>Of course.
19:44*Mazur just returned from hours of TV.
19:44<Hydros>there's an interesting topic that has come up, which licence to choose for the new identity/logo gfx
19:44<Hydros>I thought about CC initially, naturally
19:45<Hydros>how do we release all the game gfx, everything is CC?
19:45<Mazur>Ah, an area which I have not involved myself in, yet.
19:45<+glx>game gfx are a mix of image and code
19:46<Hydros>the newgfx packs, yes.
19:46<Hydros>ah I see so the whole pack HAS to be released as CC
19:46<Hydros>well, matching licence of the whole project, GPL
19:46<Mazur>Not GNU Library thingy?
19:46<Hydros>see I was thinking, CC for identity gfx is actually not appropriate and has no advantage
19:47<+glx>but many licences are used for newgrf files
19:47<Hydros>right, newGRF are addons they aren't part of the project so they don't need to comply with licensing requirements
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22:21<myztic>is the openttd tutorial series (master hellish) any good
22:21<myztic>on first glance it at least seems to cover most of openttd
22:22<myztic>(mean the series on youtube)
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 17 00:00:08 2016