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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-19

---Logopened Tue Jan 19 00:00:11 2016
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00:55<myztic>what's a good way to manage a lot of airports on a big map?
00:55<myztic>( if a link explains I'd be glad too, can't find anything really useful it seems )
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00:56<myztic>( airports and therefore planes, routes, et cetera)
00:59<Flygon>Supercheese: True, true...but even then
00:59<Flygon>How do you handle reconstructing the river if the road is modified?
01:00<Supercheese>yeah, that's an issue
01:00<Supercheese>whenever you bulldoze a river tile you can't ever get it back without scenario editor
01:00<Flygon>Yeah
01:08<myztic>I think I will just set 4,5 or 6 airports in the central of the map, coordinate all airplanes from there
01:08<myztic>and later found a city near that sport
01:08<myztic>s/sport/spot
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04:15<@peter1138>urgh
04:15<V453000>+1
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04:28<V453000>I see northern humies
04:37<andythenorth>lo
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05:25<argoneus>good morning train friends
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06:07<Wolf01>o/
06:09<__ln__>\____,
06:26<dihedral>__ln__: i always wonder how strange your mind actually is... but sadly there is hardly a measurement for that
06:30<__ln__>my mind is the definition of normal, and anything deviating from it is actually strange
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>that isn't really how "normal" works...
06:35<__ln__>it's like the piece of iron in paris that defined the mass of a kilogram
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's a "standard", doesn't automatically make it "normal"
06:36<Wolf01>http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySaneMan
06:37<__ln__>we could also assume that other people's minds are a plane, and my mind is the normal for that plane.
06:47<Wolf01>my bad... are you all stuck on tvtropes again?
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07:02<Eddi|zuHause>no, i closed that page ages ago. it's just a pile of non-explanatory (and probably cyclic) references
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08:49<Hydros>hi everyone, posted another update on the logo situation, I welcome any input. best to send pms via forums
08:50<Hydros>I'll be afk but will check back in the late evening
08:51<Hydros>( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=74369&p=1163016#p1163016 )
08:53<@planetmaker>Hydros, a discussion in PMs is not helpful IMHO
08:54<Hydros>I meant if anyone is too shy about posting, that's ok too
08:55*argoneus blushes
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08:55<argoneus>what's wrong with the current logo?
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09:02<V453000>a lot of things, many of them are mentioned in the thread
09:02<V453000>innovation would be really good
09:05<@planetmaker>I wonder(ed) whether the logo could be adjusted such that the 'pen' from OpenTTD could be the cargo in the train. And the first T (tilted 90°) kind of the bottom on which the 'pen' lies...
09:05<@planetmaker>the 'pen' of course in smaller font
09:06<V453000>write it there :P
09:07<V453000>though I have to say I agrew with writing all letters equally
09:08<V453000>how many times per day do you see people write instead of OpenTTD stuff like ottd, TTD, TT, and whatnot. Writing all letters the same emphasises that it is one "product", and especially since "TTD does not stand for Transport Tycoon Deluxe", this makes sense
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09:10<@peter1138>my dev folders are all called "ottd", not "openttd" :p
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09:14<V453000>exactly
09:14<V453000>yo Hydros :)
09:21<@planetmaker>peter1138, mine are also always called ottd. However... it's OpenTTD :)
09:21<@planetmaker>I think Hydros missed my comment:
09:21<@planetmaker><planetmaker> I wonder(ed) whether the logo could be adjusted such that the 'pen' from OpenTTD could be the cargo in the train. And the first T (tilted 90°) kind of the bottom on which the 'pen' lies...
09:21<@planetmaker><planetmaker> the 'pen' of course in smaller font
09:21<V453000>yez
09:23<@planetmaker>in that trail of thought it could resemble a fright train... O = boxed car. penT = flatbed wagon TD = engine
09:23<@planetmaker>fright? freight
09:23<@planetmaker>frightening how much difference one letter makes ;)
09:24<@peter1138>freightening
09:25<@peter1138>i quite like the unlabelled negative orange (2 above f1)
09:26<@peter1138>but i also like the current logo :p
09:29<V453000>c2 o2 f1 and the 2 above f1 yeah
09:29<V453000>:)
09:30<argoneus>are we discussing guitars
09:30<V453000>you are just used to the current but if you try to look at it unbiasedly (hard, I know), it is rather bad
09:31<argoneus>"TTD doesn't stand for transport tycoon deluxe"
09:31<argoneus>wuut
09:31<V453000>welcome to copyright world
09:32<argoneus>I thought you needed official permission anyway
09:32<argoneus>since you can get the same game chris sawyer made but free
09:33<V453000>well if you reverse engineer something instead of copying the code, you should not need permission
09:34<argoneus>uhhh...
09:36<@peter1138>eh, let's not go there
09:39<V453000>:) .
09:46<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> "TTD doesn't stand for transport tycoon deluxe" <-- TBH, that sentence probably wouldn't hold in a court...
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>but trademark law is even more weird than copyright law
09:49<@peter1138>it stops gaming sites expanding the name
09:49<Hydros>planetmaker, I did miss that comment!
09:49<Hydros>thanks for pointing that
09:49<Hydros>hi
09:49<Hydros>yo V453000
09:50<Hydros>darn
09:50<Hydros>more iterations coming then, evening...
09:51<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> are we discussing guitars <-- if your guitar has an o-string, you've probably been ripped off :p
09:54<Hydros>yes to reverse engineering
09:55<Hydros>all over EU we are still reasonable
09:55<Hydros>we don't allow patenting software
09:55<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: lol
09:55<argoneus>oh yeah
09:55<argoneus>companies put in their EULAs that you aren't allowed to RE their software
09:55<Hydros>which is some of the stupidest ideas post-industrial word has come up with
09:55<argoneus>these days
09:55<Hydros>you can RE it without using it, then you never accepted the EULA? :)
09:56<Hydros>from what I read EULAs aren't really that enforcable or as heavy as they seem
09:56<Hydros>a lot of that stuff didn't hold up in court when push came to shove
09:57<Hydros>I have to get going but i'll be back later, perhaps sooner than planned.
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> companies put in their EULAs that you aren't allowed to RE their software <-- german law rather specifically says such clauses are void
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10:46<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: meanwhile germany bans half of youtube
10:46<argoneus>I don't understand law
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably meant that people don't understand it :p
10:46<@Alberth>that's normal, law has no logic
10:49<V453000>germany censors youtube?!
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10:51<argoneus>V453000: GEMA
10:51<argoneus>you can't watch any high profile music videos on youtube in germany
10:51<argoneus>if it has vevo in it's name it's already blocked
10:51<argoneus>its*
10:51<V453000>nice
10:52<argoneus>oh
10:52<argoneus>I thought GEMA was some short name
10:52<argoneus>Gesellschaft für musikalische Aufführungs- und mechanische Vervielfältigungsrechte
10:52<argoneus>fantastic
10:53<@Alberth>gema looks pretty short to me :p
10:55<Mazur>Gemma Atherton? Indeed.
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10:55<Mazur>Very pretty.
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>i've even seen videos being blocked for having music in them, that don't even have music in them
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10:57<Eddi|zuHause>seems like they block on a per-channel basis for music channels
10:57<V453000>viva censorship
11:02<V453000>no wonder people pirate music instead
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's a PR battle mostly, neither side really wants to give in.
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>GEMA insists that it never actually requested any videos to be blocked, and has fought multiple court cases that the message youtube gives does not read that way...
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>and youtube doesn't want to pay as much as GEMA wants
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>youtube had a license on the ground that it was an experimental startup, which ran out in 2009. and GEMA was like "you're established, now we want Real Money(tm)"
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>at the time the talks ultimately failed, they were reportedly like a factor of 10 apart
11:09<V453000>xd
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>nothing really has moved since then, even though youtube signed contracts with all GEMA-like institutions in all the other european countries
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11:52<@Alberth>o/
11:54<argoneus>\o
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12:05<@Alberth>quak
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12:07<frosch123>hoi
12:10<argoneus>it's frodo
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause>frodo is not quite green enough
12:25<Mazur>Has he gone blue, like a smurf?
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>no, but he turned red after pushing the button.
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12:46<andythenorth>o/
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13:00<andythenorth>so where does this edible oil cargo go?
13:00*andythenorth has been adding cargos with sources, but no destination except a port
13:02<frosch123>usually it goes into a pan
13:04<argoneus>peter pan
13:04<andythenorth>hmm
13:04<andythenorth>accepts: edible oil, bacon
13:04<andythenorth>produces: breakfast
13:06<frosch123>add potatoes
13:06<frosch123>potatos + oil = food
13:06<frosch123>actually, yuo can replace potatoes in that equation with about anything
13:07<frosch123>if i take the menu from the asian fastfood thingie nearby, every second word is "fried"
13:08<argoneus>nice racism
13:08<frosch123>combined with rice, pasta, duck, chicken, ...
13:08<frosch123>argoneus: they also sell pizza, kebab and burgers
13:08<frosch123>oh, and donuts
13:08<frosch123>kind of universal fastfood
13:09<argoneus>szechuan chicken best food ok
13:09<frosch123>they dropped the "only meat" category though
13:10<frosch123>stuff like a small-pizza sized schnitzel
13:10<frosch123>with nothing else
13:10<frosch123>oh, wait, you could add meat sauce to it
13:10<argoneus>holy fuck that sounds tasty
13:10<argoneus>I'd eat that with bread
13:11<argoneus>why did they take it out
13:14<frosch123>a schnitzel by itself is not exactly tasty
13:15<argoneus>dude
13:15<argoneus>you have no idea
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13:48<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> so where does this edible oil cargo go? <-- fast food chain
13:50<andythenorth>expand?
13:50<andythenorth>o_O
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>just a black hole for food and oil
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>that appears in the outskirts of town
13:51<frosch123>outskirts?
13:51<argoneus>upskirts
13:52<frosch123>city centers consist of 30% fast food, 50% clothes shops
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: like in shopping centers that get built just outside the town
13:52<andythenorth>been considering an ‘urban’ economy for a long time
13:52<andythenorth>but does it work with TTD town pattern?
13:53<frosch123>andythenorth: it may compliment the town builders
13:53<andythenorth>if there are e.g. 16 different industries in a town
13:53<frosch123>complement?
13:53<andythenorth>complement
13:53<andythenorth>I think
13:53<andythenorth>I never know those two tbh
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: those are two very different things :p
13:53<andythenorth>I have to look it up
13:54<andythenorth>anyway 16 industries in one town, all need deliveries, possibly collections?
13:54<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, otherwise i would not have bothered correcting
13:54<andythenorth>is that actually fun gameplay?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how would i know?
13:54<andythenorth>guess?
13:54<frosch123>andythenorth: not with station spread 64 :p
13:55<andythenorth>also you sometimes get things with compliments, and things that are complementary
13:55<frosch123>i guess town industries can only be black holes in that cases
13:55<andythenorth>and when both are free extra, it’s very confusing
13:55<frosch123>inner-town cargos do not really work
13:55<andythenorth>yeah...
13:55<andythenorth>unless all trucks or helipads
13:56<frosch123>still: clothes, fast food, plastic junk
13:56<frosch123>that's about it
13:57<andythenorth>coffee
13:57<frosch123>true
13:57<andythenorth>baked goods
13:57<andythenorth>electronics
13:57<frosch123>no electronics
13:57<andythenorth>vehicles go to edge of town
13:57<andythenorth>alcohol
13:57<andythenorth>goods
13:57<frosch123>no goods
13:57<andythenorth>oic
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13:58<frosch123>you cannot buy useful stuf in city centers
13:59<andythenorth>ha
13:59<andythenorth>you can in UK :)
14:00<andythenorth>is it different in Germany?
14:00*andythenorth remembers only vaguely
14:00<andythenorth>Freiburg had shops
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>that heavily depends on the city, i suppose. or what you define "useful"
14:02<andythenorth>ha ha
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14:08*andythenorth considers a metal-bashing economy
14:08<andythenorth>expand steel mill to multiple industries
14:09<andythenorth>dunno how steel is really made though
14:09<andythenorth>burn stuff?
14:10<@peter1138>it's born in the ground
14:10<andythenorth>just dig it up?
14:10<andythenorth>sounds easy
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>you get rocks out of the ground, throw them in a big fire, then you mold it into some shape, and then you cut and fold it into your product
14:11<andythenorth>and open bottles with it?
14:11<andythenorth>and doors?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>possibly
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>or get more rocks out of the ground
14:12<andythenorth>given 3 input cargos, I can’t figure out how to combine: iron ore, coke, scrap metal, limestone and an alloy agent
14:12<andythenorth>cos that’s 5
14:12*andythenorth can count
14:12<andythenorth>at least to 5
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>i, however, cannot water-land a plane.
14:12<andythenorth>many have tried
14:12<andythenorth>many have failed
14:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you have never been to a steel mill, have you?
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: not really...
14:16*andythenorth neither
14:16<andythenorth>been to a cement plant
14:16<frosch123>andythenorth: iore + coal -> raw iron, raw iron + oxygen -> steel, steel + stuff -> special steel
14:17<andythenorth>so alloy furnace?
14:17*andythenorth googles
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14:17<andythenorth>ah minecraft mod has it
14:17<andythenorth>must be realistic
14:17*andythenorth considers a minecraft economy
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14:17<andythenorth>http://tekkitclassic.wikia.com/wiki/Alloy_Furnace
14:17<frosch123>the raw product is delivered liquird, and then turned into plates or pipes
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, "liquid metal". put it into your beloved torpedo cars ;)
14:20<andythenorth>he he
14:20<andythenorth>me and DanMack sometimes discuss novelty ‘realistic’ economies
14:20<andythenorth>no real gameplay, just playing model trains
14:20<andythenorth>steel chain, also logging chain
14:21<andythenorth>I think the map scale works against them though
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>oh, that alloy furnace can melt objects into their original ingots...
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14:22<Eddi|zuHause>might be useful for those random gold items that zombies drop
14:23<frosch123>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Evolution_convertisseurs.svg/langde-976px-Evolution_convertisseurs.svg.png <- you can offer 5 ways to produce steel
14:23<andythenorth>on a small map, I think it would be interesting to play at least once
14:24<andythenorth>probably works well with SV
14:24<andythenorth>industries would look a bit repetitive
14:24<frosch123>well, just apply more realism
14:25<frosch123>there are like 3 steel mills in europe today, right?
14:26<andythenorth>probably :P
14:29<andythenorth>ok, so to justify adding manganese as an export cargo in an African economy….
14:29<andythenorth>I’m going to add a whole new, unrelated, steel making economy
14:29<andythenorth>?
14:29*andythenorth may be smoking crack
14:30<argoneus>hey Alberth friend
14:30<argoneus>these software engineering buzzwords, they actually don't have much to do with OOP
14:30<argoneus>it seems to be mostly good and tested processes for making software in a company
14:30<frosch123>andythenorth: following the steel industry allows some interesting development
14:30<argoneus>I guess it's not that bad
14:31<frosch123>considering the classic german steel mills: one turned into a tourism company, another one turned into a cellphone network
14:31<andythenorth>argoneus: most of making good OOP is managing outside the programming
14:31<andythenorth>the rest of OO is quite uninteresting, assuming you have good hiring practices
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14:43<Conductor_Cat>:3
14:44<andythenorth>is cat
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i asked the kerbal crowd whether i should rather use a helicopter than a seaplane and they laughed at me...
14:50<andythenorth>kerbal economy
14:50<andythenorth>inputs: parts
14:50<Conductor_Cat>Squad hasn't mastered moving parts yet.
14:50<andythenorth>outputs: broken spacecraft
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, there's a mod for it
14:51<andythenorth>hmm
14:51*andythenorth has a minerals headache
14:51<andythenorth>maybe I should play a game of openttd
14:51<andythenorth>instead of a game of wikipedia
14:52<Conductor_Cat>Openpedia
14:52<Conductor_Cat>WikiTTD
14:53<andythenorth>Alberth: trying BB with 20 goals :P
14:53<andythenorth>I assume I hacked that and have forgotten
14:53<andythenorth>hmm
14:53*andythenorth tries a very large map
14:53<andythenorth>512x512
14:55<andythenorth>nah looks boring
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15:04<@Alberth>:)
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15:09<andythenorth>ugh
15:09<andythenorth>tropic map generator :(
15:10<andythenorth>how would I patch it to use the temperate generator?
15:10<andythenorth>tropic: “mostly flat"
15:10<andythenorth>it’s barely a terrain generator :P
15:11<andythenorth>“stop complaining andythenorth and start fixing"
15:11<andythenorth>yeah
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15:30<andythenorth>suggestions for moar industries? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#in_a_hot_country
15:30<andythenorth>can’t add more cargos really
15:30<andythenorth>biorefinery? http://www.sunbirdbioenergy.com/Sunbird_Bioenergy_Sustainable_Biofuel_Production.html
15:36<andythenorth>adds nothing
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15:47<andythenorth>way too much bloody desert in this generator
15:48<andythenorth>yeah, TGP is just crap for Tropic
15:48<andythenorth>the original is better
15:48<andythenorth>even though it makes stupid rectangular landscapes
15:49<andythenorth>at least it adds some rainforest and mountains
15:49<andythenorth>original accidentally generates oases too
15:50<andythenorth>meh
15:58<andythenorth>so in landscape.cpp
15:58<andythenorth>I want to patch TGP to use the tile height generator from temperate
15:59<andythenorth>but still needs to generate desert / rainforest
16:00*andythenorth fools with magic numbers
16:00<andythenorth>NFI what they do
16:04<@Alberth>copy them from temperate?
16:06<frosch123>hmm, i cannot get pydot to work :/
16:06<frosch123>it fails to load a dot file, which works fine in dot
16:06<frosch123>giving me a crypting error from pyparsing :/
16:06<andythenorth>:(
16:07<andythenorth>frosch123: paste?
16:07<andythenorth>although I have no idea :)
16:08<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p1qdevgdt <- well, pretty useless
16:08<argoneus>"what do I name my project"
16:08<argoneus>"let's go with p1qdevgdt"
16:09<frosch123>it seems to try to skip whitespace
16:09<frosch123>feels like a broken py2->3 conversion to me :p
16:09<frosch123>like the input containing character numbers
16:09<frosch123>and the parser expecting a string
16:10<andythenorth>http://pyparsing.wikispaces.com/share/view/41209503 ?
16:10<frosch123>well, i called a highlevel funtion, to which i pass the filename
16:11<andythenorth> /* Desert terrain needs special height distribution.
16:11<andythenorth> * Half of tiles should be at lowest (0..25%) heights */
16:11<andythenorth>^ this is silly
16:12<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pkglvrtjk <- yeah, pydot and pyparsing seem to disagree
16:13<frosch123>pydot fails for bytes, pyparsing for string
16:13<andythenorth>:(
16:13<andythenorth>how boring of them :)
16:13<frosch123>i wondered whether it is maintained :p
16:14*andythenorth looks
16:15<andythenorth>pypi suggest it is
16:15<andythenorth>although...ugh
16:15<andythenorth>sourceroge
16:15<andythenorth>sourceforge *
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16:15<andythenorth>no, I don’t want malware, thanks
16:15<andythenorth>http://pyparsing.wikispaces.com
16:16*andythenorth looks at pydot
16:16<andythenorth>nah pydot is dead
16:16<andythenorth>https://github.com/erocarrera/pydot
16:16<frosch123>http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/p/pydot/pydot_1.0.28-2_changelog <- lots of changes last week :p
16:17<andythenorth>frosch123: ? https://github.com/erocarrera/pydot/pull/112/files
16:17<andythenorth>recent
16:17<andythenorth>but pull request not accepted yet
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16:18<frosch123>https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=745021 <- apparently fixed last week :p
16:18<andythenorth>:P
16:19<andythenorth>in other news, in tgp.cpp, I copied the LT_TEMPERATE landscape settings for the the LT_TROPIC case
16:19<argoneus>what about the bug where Ian isn't here anymore :(
16:19<andythenorth>much better results imho
16:19<andythenorth>landscape is obviously subjective
16:19<andythenorth>but endless flat desert makes boring gameplay
16:19<andythenorth>and can be achieved trivially with a heightmap or SE
16:20<andythenorth>the original landscape generator does *not* make endless flat deserts
16:21<frosch123>what about 1.4? :p
16:21<andythenorth>it was…fixed? :P
16:21<andythenorth>there is a case that anyone who is seriously attached to current TGP tropic configuration could just go whistle, no?
16:22<frosch123>i pondered to remove all the mapgenerator presets, and instead add some sliders and profiles
16:22<frosch123>similar to chills, but not as cryptic
16:23<frosch123>some of the current mapgen settings are mislabeled imho
16:23<frosch123>while others have a weird scaling
16:23<frosch123>and i agree that landscape should not affect the terrain generator
16:24<frosch123>but the terrain generator should offer more options
16:24<frosch123>independent of landscape
16:24<frosch123>including a preview :p
16:24<andythenorth>well
16:24<andythenorth>I do not disagree :D
16:25<andythenorth>in the short term, I like my patch :P
16:25<andythenorth>it was easy
16:25<andythenorth>do the transforms map meaningfully to landscape?
16:25<andythenorth>e.g. “plateaus: few | many”
16:26<andythenorth>“low plains: few | many"
16:26*andythenorth suspects only partly
16:27<Wolf01>"maybe he is transparency blind, like color blindness"... internet again :(
16:28<argoneus>check your transparency privilege, shitlord
16:28<andythenorth>ha ha, SA Town Names has ‘stomp’
16:31<andythenorth>also ha ha the game is good
16:31<andythenorth>the bad bits really stick out these days
16:32<andythenorth>so much got fixed / improved
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17:08<andythenorth>also
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19:20<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 20 00:00:13 2016