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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-21

---Logopened Thu Jan 21 00:00:14 2016
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04:10<dihedral>greetings
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04:45<Wolf01>o/
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05:50<@peter1138>morning
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10:58<V453000>hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
10:58<V453000>the more
10:58<V453000>"3D" tracks are, the shittier they get in corners
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10:59<tt_johannes>Hello
10:59<tt_johannes>dumb question... is it possible to install and run openttd on Linux in a non root path? e.g. ./configure --prefix=/home/... ?
11:00<Taede>sure
11:00<V453000>just unzip it anywhere you like
11:00<Taede>use make bundle and the bundle directory will contain a working openttd
11:00<Taede>for newgrfs etc it will use ~/.openttd
11:01<tt_johannes>Taede, you mean "make bundle" instead of "make install" ?
11:01<Taede>yup
11:01<@Rubidium>and if you're really lazy, just "make run" ;)
11:02<tt_johannes>johannes@quaffpot ~/cprogs/openttd $ ./bundle/openttd -g ~/.openttd/save/Nienfeld73.sav -v null
11:02<tt_johannes>Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
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11:02<@Rubidium>tt_johannes: a "make install" isn't going to solve that
11:03<tt_johannes>Rubidium: I tried "make + make bundle", which showed this error
11:03<tt_johannes>(like Taede suggested)
11:04<@Rubidium>tt_johannes: regardless, "make install" isn't going to solve that error
11:04<tt_johannes>:P
11:04<tt_johannes>ok but make bundle isn't either ?
11:04<@Rubidium>because OpenTTD doesn't ship the graphics set
11:05<tt_johannes>Rubidium: ah I get it...
11:05<@Rubidium>*if* you have the right dependencies compiled into the executable it will ask you whether it should download it when using a graphical user interface, but if that is not possible... I would suggest reading the mentioned section in the readme
11:06<tt_johannes>Rubidium: I did, but I guess it only asks me if I don't start with -v null :P
11:06<@Rubidium>well... you tell it to not use the graphical user interface, so what do you expect?
11:06<tt_johannes>ok now it works, great
11:07<tt_johannes>well thanks for the help
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11:13<@planetmaker>tt_johannes, just don't install :)
11:14<@planetmaker>ah... I'm late to the party :)
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11:23<@Alberth>hi hi
11:26<supermop>V453000: make tracks flat, abuse fences for 3d rails
11:27<@Alberth>hmm, junctions?
11:27<supermop>abuse catenary?
11:28<supermop>i was thinking a could years ago about how to make monorail look better at extra zoom, and there is basically no way to do it without the rail having some actual height
11:29<supermop>the only thing on a default rail tile that has any height is the fence
11:29<supermop>but true, then fences are omitted on many locations
11:30<supermop>couple years ago
11:30<@Alberth>not sure that makes sens imho, tracks are also not on the ground even if they look that way
11:30<@Alberth>everything is just visual illusion
11:30<supermop>yes,
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11:31<supermop>but v's problem i assume is that at the corner, you want to make it look like the rail segment is a few inches tall, sticking up in front of the tile beyond
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11:32<supermop>you can fake it easily if you assume the rail beyond is alway straight, or if the rail it self is a mush of pixels as in 8bpp 1x sprites
11:33<@Alberth>hmm, good point, 4x zoom may be different; I never play in that
11:34<supermop>yeah, these are all areas the original artists could cheat in as there was no way to notice the errors easily before
11:34<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/mglv-curves.png
11:34<V453000>cornerz
11:35<supermop>like a monorail rail is a couple feet tall, but you can fake it with a completely flat line in the original style
11:35<V453000>cheating it with old ttd monorail was easy in pixel art
11:35<V453000>in 3D not so much
11:37<supermop>the only thing could think of at the time was to not draw the rail, or draw it very simply
11:38<supermop>and then have a fence or catenary sprite that is drawn and positioned as a monorail beam
11:38<supermop>and if someone turns of catenary fo a bit, its not the end of the world that the rail is invisible
11:38<V453000>nah, nothing "truly" helps ... the key is to simply hack it's supports/pillars in a way that makes the corners less apparent
11:38<V453000>and fences do not get build next to every tile
11:38<V453000>only on edges
11:39<V453000>maglev aint got catenary :(
11:39<supermop>but default monorail has no wires so doesnt work in baseset
11:40<supermop>hmm blizzard coming this weekend, i should buy new boots
11:42<@Alberth>oh, not the game company :p
11:42<supermop>foot of snow possible,
11:43<supermop>have not had snow yet this year
11:43<V453000>I think the trick in original TTD monorail is that it has the supports of the beam at the edges so nicely, that it does not look wtf in corners
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11:43<@Alberth>year is only 21 days old :p
11:43<supermop>past few years in nyc has been nothing but tons of snow - but i got to hide from that in australia!
11:43<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/original-monorail-curves.png
11:43<supermop>haha, past few winters then , Alberth
11:44<tt_johannes>if you add a new file in the video directory, how do you inform the Makefile of it? I thinks it knows automatically?
11:44<@Alberth>there is a "source.list" file listing the files
11:44<supermop>V453000: also the original monorail rails are not much thicker than an original steel rail
11:44<@Alberth>and a script to update the build stuff from the source.list
11:45<V453000>supermop: that makes it even harder to get to look nice
11:45<V453000>I am doing maglev in a very monorail-style way
11:45<V453000>I gor rail sorted
11:45<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/BRIX_taster5.png
11:45<@Alberth>tt_johannes: projects/generate files (one is unix, one is wndows)
11:45<supermop>V453000: why not just a wide uniform slab for maglev?
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>if you add a file to source.list, you should also run projects/generate before publishing
11:46<supermop>seems that would be easiest,
11:46<V453000>I don't like it
11:46<V453000>and in junctions it is hard to make it work well
11:46<V453000>one overlays another and junctions become a mess
11:46<supermop>like a transrapid track right on the ground
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11:47<supermop>so are monorail and maglev basically the same graphically in brix?
11:47<V453000>basically it is one rail
11:48<V453000>but the magic of maglev is that the bright blue top is like "electrictiy" ... the black part of the rail is a part of the underlay
11:48<V453000>which means that once you build the junction, you get all connections, and then blue part is overlay to "activate" them
11:49<supermop>sounds fun
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11:51<V453000>it works great in junctions, probably the best it possibly could ... it is the same method I use at PURR
11:51<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/purr.png
11:53<V453000>which is awesome, but "on the ground'
11:53<V453000>I would like to have track-hugging maglev train graphics in brix, which is why I am trying to make the track elevated
11:55<tt_johannes>I get many errors compiling a simple cpp file that just includes null_v.h
11:55<tt_johannes>I guess it's missing stdafx.h, but if that's the case, that should be included in the appropriate headers
11:56<@Alberth>nope, it's the first include in every cpp files
11:56<@Alberth>*file
11:57<tt_johannes>Alberth: why don't you put it into the headers?
11:57<@Rubidium>tt_johannes: please come with a patch that does not include stdafx.h unnecessarily, but also doesn't miss it
11:58<tt_johannes>ah, you worry about compile time?
11:58<@Rubidium>not necessarily
11:58<@Alberth>I have no idea, it was there when I joined the project; I don't even understand why it's called stdafx.h, apparently something window-y
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12:00<@Rubidium>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precompiled_header#stdafx.h <- apparantly MSVC doesn't compile anything coming before #include "stdafx.h"
12:00<tt_johannes>oh ok...
12:00<@Alberth>silly windows
12:01<@Rubidium>well, I found loads more silly things recently
12:01<@Rubidium>amongst others airliners
12:02<@Alberth>:)
12:03<@Rubidium>airlines A and B fly the same route, airline A offers flights on A and B for EUR 450, airline B offers flights on A and B for EUR 550. Now the awards of Airline B can only be claimed when you book and fly with the same airline
12:03<@Rubidium>i.e. booking and flying with A or booking and flying with B
12:04<@Alberth>hmm, marketing... :p
12:04<@Rubidium>but flying with B (regardless where you booked) doesn't give you frequent flyer stuff...
12:05<@Alberth>lol
12:06<@Rubidium>since I'm not flying enough business class to rake in lots of points, I won't get and stay in the higher categories where the flyer points are really useful... so I guess I'm going for the cheap option
12:07<@Alberth>yeah, no real advantages to fly B :)
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12:08<@Rubidium>oh, I'm going to fly with B, just going to book with A
12:09<tt_johannes>why does the null video driver call UpdateWindows ? Is there some function behind it?
12:09<@Rubidium>probably
12:10<tt_johannes>I mean, what are practical use cases for the null driver (besides debugging) ?
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12:11<@Rubidium>the AI regression test
12:11<tt_johannes>also, I'm not sure why it can do multiple ticks...
12:12<tt_johannes>what is it doing in all those ticks?
12:12<tt_johannes>is it like you load a game, and then let it run for a few ticks/seconds (just without any video display), and then, e.g. save the resulting game?
12:13<@Alberth>I am not sure anyone ever spend a large amount of time on a null driver
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12:14<tt_johannes>I wanted to write an exporter that takes an openttd map and exports a railway net graph... someone suggested to use the null driver
12:15<tt_johannes>should my null driver then just make 0 ticks, then export the graph, and then finish?
12:16<@Alberth>0 ticks or 1 ticks or 5 ticks, it all hardly matters, imho
12:18<@Alberth>you probably already thought about it longer than the total time you may waste there :)
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1162301#p1162301 <-- i think this is one of the longest standing misfeatures of the game. if a train is lost, it should not take the SHORTEST path, but the LONGEST.
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>the longer the path, the more likely it is to get to a point where it's not lost anymore
12:20<@Alberth>so it should circle around indefinitely?
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause>a moving train blocks less traffic than a stuck train.
12:21<@Alberth>no idea how to tell that to the path finder imho
12:23<@Alberth>just picking a random direction is probably even better
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but actual random.
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>not deterministic
12:24<@Alberth>indeed
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12:38<tt_johannes>is it a good idea to get the list of all stations of a loaded game via _station_pool from station_base.h ?
12:39<tt_johannes>I thought there was a getstations function or something similar, but I don't find it
12:39<@Alberth>no doubt there is a FOR_ALL_STATIONS like macro somewhere
12:40<@Alberth>look how the stations list window accesses the list
12:40<tt_johannes>ah I think it works via BaseStation...
12:40<@peter1138>£85579
12:40<@Alberth>pricey :)
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>depends on whether it's for a car or a yacht :p
12:46<@peter1138>it's the amount left on my mortgage
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>that probably takes a while to wear off...
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>but mortgages should be relatively cheap right now :p
12:55<@Alberth>depending on when you asked for it :)
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13:01<@peter1138>2.5% at the moment, so pretty low
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13:17<frosch123>hoi
13:18<@Alberth>hola
13:18<frosch123>question of the week: if they really found a new 9th planet, are they going to name it something starting with "P"?
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>i suggested that as well :p
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14:10<@Alberth>o/
14:12<andythenorth>o/
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14:35<@peter1138>bah, silly fingers won't reach from E flat to G an octave above :S
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14:39<andythenorth>is cat?
14:40<@peter1138>no
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14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm probably lucky that going from E-flat to G doesn't involve a lot of finger movement for me :p
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>(but octave jumps are probably even more difficult, despite that)
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15:02<tt_johannes>if you pass the savegame with -g, is it loaded before the driver starts, or does the driver have to do it?
15:03<@Alberth>I would really hope a video driver doesn't load a game :)
15:04<tt_johannes>ah ok, I just see it, it is being loaded before the driver comes
15:05<tt_johannes>the strange thing is, I have my null driver now, which should print all stations
15:05<tt_johannes>however, if I start it, it prints no stations at all
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15:06<tt_johannes>I started it like this: openttd -g ~/.openttd/save/Nienfeld73.sav -v graph
15:06<tt_johannes>and in the "graph driver", I have code like: FOR_ALL_STATIONS(st) { std::cout << st->name << std::endl; }
15:07<@Alberth>st->name is not a char* ?
15:08<tt_johannes>it says it is a char*
15:08<@Alberth>"Custom name. "
15:08<@Alberth>ie only if you give it a new name
15:08<tt_johannes>oh!
15:08<tt_johannes>you're right...
15:09<tt_johannes>if I do "std::cout << "once" << std::endl;" it does print
15:09<@Alberth>you need st->string_id
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15:09<@Alberth>but text conversion is another call
15:11<tt_johannes>are the Doxygen output files hosted somewhere? or is there a make command to generate them?
15:11<@Alberth>char buffer[DRAW_STRING_BUFFER]; GetString(buffer, st->string_id, lastof(buffer));
15:12<frosch123>better do: SetDParam(0, station_id); GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf));
15:12<frosch123>that will handle all cases
15:12<@Alberth>just type doxygen Doxyfile
15:13<@Alberth>good point frosch123
15:13<frosch123>docs.openttd.org or something
15:13<tt_johannes>thanks 2x ;)
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: maybe you should check out the station list window?
15:14<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: do you know the exact class name?
15:22<@Alberth>station*gui.cpp file
15:22<@Alberth>would be my guess, something with station, and *_gui.cpp are the windows files
15:23<tt_johannes>what is the sense behind "SetDParam(0, station_id); GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf))" ?
15:23<tt_johannes>first, you tell a global that you will want to get the string for this specific station id, right?
15:23<tt_johannes>that's what SetDParam does
15:24<@Alberth>set first parameter of the string STR_STATION_NAME to station_id
15:24<@Alberth>then convert STR_STATION_NAME to text in buffer
15:25<@Alberth>STR_STATION_NAME                                                :{STATION} <-- the string definition
15:25<tt_johannes>oO
15:25<@Alberth>in src/lang/english.txt
15:25<tt_johannes>yes, but this is no C code :)
15:26<tt_johannes>STR_STATION_NAME appears in the C code, but where is it defined?
15:26<@Rubidium>no, it's C+ code ;)
15:26<@Alberth>it's generated
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: the string codes are in an autogenerated .h file
15:26<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: which one?
15:27<tt_johannes>ah!
15:27<@Alberth>grep for a file ?
15:27<@Alberth>but, it's generated, not interesting as long as it works :)
15:27<tt_johannes>ok it's an integer
15:28<@Alberth>StringID :p
15:28<@Alberth>some uint16 typedef iirc
15:28<tt_johannes>"set first parameter of the string STR_STATION_NAME to station_id" -> what do you mean? is that what SetDParam(0, station_id); does?
15:28<@Alberth>yep
15:28<tt_johannes>but you did not pass STR_STATION_NAME to it
15:28<tt_johannes>so it can not do it?
15:28<@Alberth>strings can have parameters
15:29<@Alberth>parameters are global
15:29<@Alberth>we're talking C+ here :)
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: no, it just pushes the parameter to the text stack. which string is evaluated is defined later
15:30<@Alberth>1. set parameters 2.print/convert strings 3. do not do something with another string in-between
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>4. don't ever try to port this to a threaded model :p
15:31<tt_johannes>ok, so SetDParam(0, station_id) says: I'll print out some string later, and the first arg (number 0) of it will be a string corresponding to station_id
15:31<@Alberth>yep
15:32<tt_johannes>and then, GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf)) says: look up the station_id now in the string map of STR_STATION_NAME and write it to buf?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, basically.
15:33<@Alberth>it means "print the string" the special code {STATION} (in text) means, interpret number as station number, it looks up the station name etc, and copies it to the buffer
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>the "lastof(buf)" is to prevent buffer overflows
15:34<@Alberth>since there is no text before or after the special code, you just get the station name, and nothing else
15:35<tt_johannes>ok I start getting it
15:35<tt_johannes>the code now printed all my station names
15:36<tt_johannes>interestingly, many of them are name "... Oil field", I did not recall having many stations named like that :D
15:36<@Alberth>oil rigs
15:36<@Alberth>which have shared stations
15:37<@Alberth>you need a station to load or drop cargo
15:37<@Alberth>so oil rig has a built-in station
15:37<tt_johannes>ah yes...
16:05*andythenorth plays openttd
16:05<andythenorth>Alberth: 20 goals is silly :)
16:05<andythenorth>overwhelming even
16:05*andythenorth had to try it though
16:06<@Alberth>it does give you wide range of options to pursue :)
16:06<andythenorth>yeah, too many
16:06<@Alberth>and nothing bad happens when you fail a few :p
16:06<andythenorth>there is some level though, where it’s just like playing without goals :P
16:07*andythenorth tries a new game with 12
16:07<@Alberth>at times I do ignore the goals and just build what I want
16:07<tt_johannes>sorry for asking again... an "Order" (like in the Order class)... I thought it is an ordered list of stations, which some trains use as a timetable ?
16:07<tt_johannes>but how can an Order then have a CargoID?
16:08<@Alberth>I think it's just one line in the order list
16:08<@Alberth>not sure though
16:08<andythenorth>I find that the goals prompt me to deliver the other needed cargos to secondary industries
16:08<andythenorth>and the output
16:08<andythenorth>quite a nice side effect
16:08<tt_johannes>Alberth: from reading about OrderList, that makes sense...
16:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: yeah, you do things you'd normally just skip :)
16:09<tt_johannes>Alberth: so in openttd you can tell a train to only unload passengers at a specific station? is that true?
16:10*andythenorth wonders if frosch123 has invented more landscape generation options
16:10<@Alberth>what other values does "only" have?
16:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: inventing is easy, implementing is more challenging :p
16:11<andythenorth>in newgrf, I find inventing much harder than implementing now :P
16:11<frosch123>tt_johannes: the cargotype is for refitting orders
16:11<@Alberth>tt_johannes: ie what does it not do?
16:12<tt_johannes>refitting orders means: transform a coal waggon into a lumber waggon?
16:12<tt_johannes>frosch123: ^
16:12<frosch123>tt_johannes: https://wiki.openttd.org/Orders#Refit
16:14<tt_johannes>ah now I got it!
16:14<tt_johannes>wow I did not know that you can set speed limits...
16:15<frosch123>sometimes you find features by reading the code :)
16:15<frosch123>esp. rare ctrl+click things
16:17<frosch123>for example i never knew how to remove desert in scenario editor, until i looked at the code for how to add it
16:17*andythenorth waits for more goals :)
16:18<@Alberth>12 not enough? :)
16:18<andythenorth>only got 2
16:18<andythenorth>game start
16:18<andythenorth>time lag :)
16:19<@Alberth>BB should be smarter in detecting you have no stations nearby
16:20<@Alberth>hmm, might fail with oil rigs :p
16:20<andythenorth>I need to stop quitting my games, and see how it plays out over 30-50 years
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16:21<@Alberth>oh, you don't save, and then continue the next time?
16:21<@Alberth>you can just build some stuff without goal at first
16:21<@Alberth>iirc I made some oil connection at first
16:23<andythenorth>I either get bored of my game
16:23<andythenorth>or change FIRS in some way that breaks it
16:23<andythenorth>or add 20 goals :P
16:30<@Alberth>not good in ignoring goals eh? :)
16:31<@Alberth>gn
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16:39*andythenorth must to bed
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16:41<Eddi|zuHause>mustard bed? must be some weird british thing...
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18:47<argoneus>imagine if pokemon were real
18:59<Wolf01>I would like to have an Absol
19:01<Wolf01>'night
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19:01<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen that video.
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 22 00:00:15 2016